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rbroberg
15th March 2006, 21:20
Are there any extant ryu that teach the use of the spear from horseback?

Thank you for time.

kokumo
15th March 2006, 22:27
East is East and West is West.....and Virginia is lovely in the spring:

http://www.nationaljousting.com/

rbroberg
15th March 2006, 22:49
East is East and West is West.....

Wrong stirrups. ;)

M. Marchionni
5th April 2006, 14:33
Hello to every one, I´m new here. I introduce my self, my name is Maximo and I live in Argentine. I guess you will not find a ryu because the polearms has been developed to use them at foot, not at horse back.
We make it, but for sure, is not a ryu.
Máximo

I send you something who I find.

....""The original warfare of the Bushi was not a thing for
'commoners'; it was a ritualized combat usually
between two warriors who would challenge each other
via horseback archery and sword duels. However the
invasions of Mongols in 1274 and 1281 changed Japanese
warfare and weaponry."

This is a pretty simplistic view of things, and the
statement about warfare not being a thing for
"commoners" is a fallacy. "Commoners" simply aren't
mentioned in the chronicles and histories, because who
wants to read about Kichibei the grunt? Certainly no
one who wrote or read said chronicles. Footsoldiers
certainly did exist, and carried a variety of
polearms--notably before the mid-1400's they carried
the naginata. It's true that warfare changed after the
Mongol invasions, but it's not like in 1281 they
challenged each other to archery duels, and January
1st 1282 all of a sudden they started using yari.

I highly recommend finding a copy of "Arms and Armour
of the Samurai" by Ian Bottomley and Anthony P.
Hopson, who I mentioned above. It's a bit of a coffee
table book, but it does give a great outline of the
development and timeline of Japanese weapons, and
would tell you likely all you want to know about yari. "...

Fred27
30th January 2008, 20:10
I'm under the impression that on the ground a warrior would use a long spear, but when on horseback a much shorter spear that was light enough to be used with one hand was preferred. If so, are there any ryu left with kata or techniques performed with a short-spear?
Is short-spearmanship a part of sojutsu or is it categorised differently?

I generally haven't had much luck finding information about the short-spear.

pgsmith
30th January 2008, 22:03
I'm under the impression that on the ground a warrior would use a long spear, but when on horseback a much shorter spear that was light enough to be used with one hand was preferred.
Hey Fred,
Everything I've read about Japanese history indicates that this isn't true. First and foremost, the samurai were horse archers. It is pretty much impossible to both use a bow and carry a lance. I have heard occasional reference to short spears, but nothing that indicates that they were used from horseback. Of course, my interest in Japanese history is purely amateur, so I have been proven wrong on a fairly regular basis! :)

Nii
30th January 2008, 22:54
Aren't the lances that knights used extremely long? I wonder why the Japanese did not innovate a similar sort of weapon. They sound like a very effective weapon =P

Maro
30th January 2008, 23:15
Aren't the lances that knights used extremely long? I wonder why the Japanese did not innovate a similar sort of weapon. They sound like a very effective weapon =P

Japanese Warriors didn't use shields or plate armour. The length of lance was necessary to increase it's mass and hence it's kinetic energy for more penetrative power.

It's apples and oranges.

Fred27
31st January 2008, 07:42
Hey Fred,
Everything I've read about Japanese history indicates that this isn't true. First and foremost, the samurai were horse archers. It is pretty much impossible to both use a bow and carry a lance. I have heard occasional reference to short spears, but nothing that indicates that they were used from horseback. Of course, my interest in Japanese history is purely amateur, so I have been proven wrong on a fairly regular basis! :)

Yes it is true that the way of the Samurai was the "way of the horse and bow", but in the Sengoku Jidai the mounted archer was past it's prime. Again this is just my impression of the timeline.

Josh Reyer
31st January 2008, 13:22
Fred,

If you haven't seen it already, you might find this thread (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7562) helpful.

Also, take a look at these Edo-era screen paintings of the Battle of Sekigahara:

Right (http://www4.ocn.ne.jp/~watart/syuzou/gazou/syuzou02-3.jpg).
Left (http://www4.ocn.ne.jp/~watart/syuzou/gazou/syuzou02-2.jpg).

It's hard to make out the details, but to my eyes it looks like there are a few mounted spearmen who have long, full-length spears (unless those are spearmen running alongside the horses). Most of the mounted samurai are carrying big-ass tachi, though. (Of course, there are the usual caveats about trusting a work of art for historical accuracy...)

Lance Gatling
31st January 2008, 13:26
I'm under the impression that on the ground a warrior would use a long spear, but when on horseback a much shorter spear that was light enough to be used with one hand was preferred. If so, are there any ryu left with kata or techniques performed with a short-spear?
Is short-spearmanship a part of sojutsu or is it categorised differently?

I generally haven't had much luck finding information about the short-spear.

AFAIK.....
- Japanese mounted warriors did not depend on the long spear (more typically called a 'lance' in Western military parlance), they were mounted for mobility and mounted archers.
- The Japanese spear was typically not thrown, but used in thrust and slashes.
- There seem to be only a handful of pure spear (sojutsu) schools extant in Japan, and AFAIK none in Tokyo (although several sogo bujutsu around the country include the spear in their toolkit). Notably:
-- Hozoin-ryu (Nara)
http://www4.kcn.ne.jp/~hozoin/
-- Saburi-ryu (Hiroshima)
http://park1.aeonnet.ne.jp/~yari-iai/index.htm
-- Owarikan-ryu (Aichi)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCeHuv2M5NY

I reckon today's short spear practice is hiding in place sight - the 手槍 teyari or hand spear, used in close quarters and indoors, is about the length of a 六尺棒 rokushaku-bo (~180cm) or 4尺2寸1分 (128cm, ~50in.) 杖 jo. Think of a spear when you make a slide thrust into the face of someone in a jodo class - six inches of steel through an eye shield would ruin the day of any fully armored samurai.

If you can use a bo or jo, you can use a 'short spear', but you'd better keep track of the end w/ the blade! I reckon the thrusts, slashes, reverses, everything works pretty much the same. And most spears had metal caps on the butts to use for reverse strikes - just like a bo or jo.

If you watch just about any samurai movie, in the background there are almost always 足軽 ashigaru, low level foot-soldier samurai types, hanging out, leaning on their staffs, guarding the gates, scratching themselves, bored out of their minds, doing what soldiers do until it's killing time. For peacetime, they just carried their cudgels / clubs / staves / staffs / bladeless spears / whatever you call them, but when there was fighting in the offing, they'd draw live spears with warheads from the armsroom. And if they broke off the blade, they'd keep fighting, using the same techniques.

Jo
http://www.shindomusoryu.com/znkrseiteijodo.htm
various bo schools

And not only samurai, but commoners would arm themselves w/ bo or jo; in the Sengoku Jidai 'Warring States' era, villages were required to provide levies of armed soldiers, and the weapons included spears. An able-bodied farmer with a spear in a defensive position, determined to keep head on shoulders, often changed the tide of a battle.

If there's a serious spear school in Tokyo I'd like to see it.

Cheers,

Nii
31st January 2008, 22:40
Sounds interesting. I never realised the Chinese had a Japanese counterpart to their spears (6 foot types, not those 3m ones or whatever).

Fred27
2nd February 2008, 11:21
Sorry for the late reply, I had to revisiti some of my sources.


- Japanese mounted warriors did not depend on the long spear (more typically called a 'lance' in Western military parlance), they were mounted for mobility and mounted archers.

I must disagree with this one. That they were mounted for mobility is true though, but according to what I read the trend was going from mounted archers to mounted spearmen, beginning in the early Sengoku era. The bow, of course, did not vanish but it did not remain the dominant weapon like during the "classical" era.

A spear of choice is also mentioned: "mochi-yari" or "held spear" (at least that was teh authors translation). The mochi yari was between 3.2 to 4 meters in length and was adapted for use on horseback and on the ground. Apparently various illustrations suggest it was used both as a lance or for thrusts/slash while standing up in the stirrups. There is a heap of info on the mounted spearman. At the battle of Nagashino, for instance, the Takeda cavalry did not crash into the Oda lines with the bow as the primary weapon.

I guess the short spear Isn't what I was chasing after all. If the mochi yari was indeed a spear of choice then there is nothing "short" about it. Thanks for the patient replies all. :)

Max Chouinard
2nd February 2008, 17:21
There is also this image of Honda Tadatomo at the battle of Tennoji, clearly he had a short spear. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/uk/thumb/d/d4/Honda_tadatomo1.png/300px-Honda_tadatomo1.png

Nathan Scott
4th February 2008, 17:55
It's my understanding that a mounted soldier who would be riding into a close quarters situation would often carry a shorter spear or naginata, since a bow would be less useful in such conditions. Like modern military, tachi and other weapons carried in the belt are backup weapons, not primary weapons of war.

As far as short spears go, from what I've read the long spears are generally designed for battlefield, while much shorter spears were used in urban settings. Same thing with naginata - the longer ones with bigger blades are rare to find, while the shorter ones were much more common as house-defense weapons (typically associated with women).

In addition to the teyari (hand spear), there is a shorter spear called a "makura-yari" (pillow spear) that was kept indoors for defense inside the residence.

You would think there would be more schools that survived to the modern day that taught the shorter spear methods...

Fred27
5th February 2008, 10:59
You would think there would be more schools that survived to the modern day that taught the shorter spear methods...

I was thinking that too. It makes sense what Lance said that ashigaru on guard duty using a bo or a jo would prolly have little trouble using a spear if things get ugly. But perhaps thats part of the answer:

If we look at Shinto Muso ryu jo, which is a perfect example since it wasn't created specifically to take on heavily armoured warriors, not to mention it found its use by ashigaru who without a doubt performed guard duties, then one become very tempted to speculate if perhaps the ashigaru were taught spear-techniques within SMR or if they learned it in a seperate ryu. And if there were such techniques than perhaps its not too obvious to the naked eye. Perhaps there are applications in regular modern SMR-jo techniques, (not to mention other ryu that uses staves), that were suited for spearmanship and were taught as such to the ashigaru. Of course the most obvious spear-inspired technique is the tsuki and we are taught this from day one, but I can also imagine a ashigaru using a short spear to both thrust and slash using SMR-techniques.

I think I'm gonna bug my sensei about this...Errr..I mean "inquire" my sensei. :D

K. Cantwell
21st February 2008, 13:04
It's my understanding that a mounted soldier who would be riding into a close quarters situation would often carry a shorter spear or naginata, since a bow would be less useful in such conditions.

One of the ai-naginata techniques in Toda-ha Buko-ryu is theoretically about cutting the legs out from under a horse. Since the guy supposedly on the horse also has a naginata, the above makes sense. (Could just be kata, though there probably is some basis for it.)

In terms of SMR, it's true that we've got the whole, "reap like a naginata, cut like a sword, thrust like a spear" thing. Still, I don't think you really "slash" with a jo. Certainly if you imagine a spear point on the end of your jo, you could slash, but that would change, I think, the principle of the kata. You cut with a jo...backslashes like with a naginata or spear wouldn't work. (You’d whack the guy and you’d do it in a pinch, but it’s not a choice you would make unless you had to. With a naginata or certain spears, however, this is a peachy technique and is something for which the weapon is designed.)

You would also have to take into consideration what type of spear you were imagining. You can thrust with all of them, but depending on how the business end is shaped, slashes might not be that effective. (Wouldn't do the enemy any good, but might not be the best choice.)

So, I think the only time the jo is acting like a spear is on the thrust. If you try and make it a spear at other times, you're probably gilding the lily to the point of ineffectuality with this particular weapon. Similarly with a spear acting like a jo.

Kevin Cantwell

Lance Gatling
21st February 2008, 15:05
.....
In terms of SMR, it's true that we've got the whole, "reap like a naginata, cut like a sword, thrust like a spear" thing. Still, I don't think you really "slash" with a jo. Certainly if you imagine a spear point on the end of your jo, you could slash, but that would change, I think, the principle of the kata. You cut with a jo...backslashes like with a naginata or spear wouldn't work. (You’d whack the guy and you’d do it in a pinch, but it’s not a choice you would make unless you had to. With a naginata or certain spears, however, this is a peachy technique and is something for which the weapon is designed.)

You would also have to take into consideration what type of spear you were imagining. You can thrust with all of them, but depending on how the business end is shaped, slashes might not be that effective. (Wouldn't do the enemy any good, but might not be the best choice.)

So, I think the only time the jo is acting like a spear is on the thrust. If you try and make it a spear at other times, you're probably gilding the lily to the point of ineffectuality with this particular weapon. Similarly with a spear acting like a jo.

Kevin Cantwell

I'm not so sure - if you take into account the strikes w/ the monouchi of the jo, then think about a single or double-edged spear, the distance from the tip to the 'sweet spot' slashing surface is very close to the same. There are physics reasons behind the design of many traditional weapons and the use of the jo.

But with a blade, your choice of targets changes, perhaps a lot. And, as you say, the type of blade changes the optimal techniques.

I'm not saying that anyone practices this today (in fact my sensei usually responds 'Practice more! no questions today!' to such questions) or perhaps even understands it, but the links seem obvious to me.

I think you can see links to spear handling in certain koryu jo techniques. Of course one difference in spearhandling is that with a spear you can't pull your hand back past the blade to reverse your grip, but plenty of koryu jo styles release the jo to move from overhand to underhand grips, thus avoiding the (non-existant) spearhead blade. This tends to be more obvious in bo techniques, because the length and weight of the bo limit the full end techniques.

Cheers,

K. Cantwell
21st February 2008, 15:47
I'm not so sure - if you take into account the strikes w/ the monouchi of the jo, then think about a single or double-edged spear, the distance from the tip to the 'sweet spot' slashing surface is very close to the same. There are physics reasons behind the design of many traditional weapons and the use of the jo.


I thought the point of that distance was to make sure that you are burying the "edge" of the jo into the right spot in the head and you aren't cutting the maai so fine that you miss. Hitting a few inches down on the jo will still hurt, but burying that edge into the "right" spot on the temple or top of the head is what you are looking for.

Plus, there are times when the stick is the stick and you're just caving him in with a blunt weapon. So, the end of seigan, for example. Nothing fancy, just split his skull.

Maybe you can see some carryover in the physics, but I think that is simply due to the way we humans have to deal with these types of weapons. For example, thrusting to the face may look more or less the same with a jo or spear. It's not necessarily the influence of one weapon on other as much as the human mechanics of thrusting.

I'm not saying there isn't any influence, but this may be a case of making things more complex than they are. Beyond the thrust, the stick, I don't think, really mimics the spear. Some movements may be similar, but I don't see anything pedagogical in that.

I’ve been wrong so many times, though, it’s like my day job. This could be another one to add to the collection.

Kevin Cantwell

Jay Vail
22nd February 2008, 11:31
Hey Fred,
Everything I've read about Japanese history indicates that this isn't true. First and foremost, the samurai were horse archers. It is pretty much impossible to both use a bow and carry a lance. I have heard occasional reference to short spears, but nothing that indicates that they were used from horseback. Of course, my interest in Japanese history is purely amateur, so I have been proven wrong on a fairly regular basis! :)


Byzantine cavalry soldiers were required to have both the lance and bow. See "Maurice's Strategikon," translated by George Dennis: This was part of their training: "On horseback at a run he should fire one or two arrows rapidly and put the strung bow in its case, if it is wide enough, or in a half-case designed for this purpose, and then he should grab the spear which he has been carrying on his back." P. 11.

ChameleonLight
1st October 2012, 20:58
Hi how are you guys,

It is only an opinion, but it is based on some previous reading that i have done. I think it is very probable that a horseman could and would carry both bow and lance since either one can be sheathed and tied to the back of the horse, in the comfortable position right behind the saddle. It certainly has been true of the Mongolian warriors, which probably puts most of the Eastern Europe in the same category. I don't see why a Japanese warrior couldn't do the same thing. Thanks.

Sincerely,
Igor Lurye.