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Erik Hallstensson
11th January 2001, 12:44
Hello all!

My curiosity awoke when I read that the Isshin-Ryu was founded by Nen Ami Jion (Soma Shiro Yoshimoto). Is the Isshin-Ryu a later kusarigama-only branch of the Nen-Ryu or did he teach these schools separately? If so, are there other lost teachings than kusarigama in the Isshin-Ryu? According to the Higuchi family records Nen Ami Jion founded the Maniwa Nen-Ryu in 1368 when he was 18 years old, as I am sure you are all aware of. This should implicate that he founded the Isshin-Ryu much later in his life. Is there any information (or qualified guessings) available detailing why he suddenly founded a kusarigama school late in his life? Or is he considered the inspirational founder like Mabito is considered the inspirational founder of the Kashima Shin-Ryu but someone else is the actual founder of the organised ryu?

Thanks in advance,

Erik

Karl Friday
11th January 2001, 20:38
It's a virtual certainty that Nen Ami Jion didn't found the Isshin-ryu in a literal manner. Even the *Bugei ryuha daijiten* (which is *extremely* sparing in editorial comments about the lineages claimed by various ryuha) describes the names in the geneology of the Isshin-ryu you're referring to here before Tan Isshin as a "pretext" (kataku), and describes Isshin as the actual founder (which certainly makes sense in light of the name).

The traditional lineage for the school claims that Isshin, who lived in the early 17th century, learned the art from Yui Shosetsu (1605-51) a famous military strategist and founder of the Kusanoki-ryu school of military science (gungaku). Whether or not Isshin (or one of his successors in the Isshin-ryu) manufactured this relationship (and the connections linking Yui back to Jion) from whole cloth is pretty much anybody's guess.

There are several possibilities: There may have been no connection between Isshin and Yui or Jion whatsoever. Or Isshin might have had some direct contact with Yui, perhaps even studying gungaku under him, and worked some of what he picked up into his kusari-gama and bojutsu. Or, Isshin might have been similarly inspired, albeit by completely indirect contact with Yui's teachings. Or, Isshin might have derived a similar kind of inspiration from the Maniwa Nenryu, and therefore chose to attribute the origins of his school all the way back to Jion. Or, some later figure in the Isshin-ryu lineage may have followed this kind of inspiration from Yui, the Maniwa Nenryu, or any of the figures between Jion and Yui in the lineage, and created the pre-Isshin list on that basis. Or . . .

In any case, there's really no reason to suppose, as part of any of these scenarios, that there were any specific techniques for the kusari-gama, the bo or any of the other Isshin-ryu arts being passed along prior to Isshin. Even if there was a connection there somewhere, it's likely that it was a matter of principles cross-applied to Isshin's favored weapons.

Ruediger
11th January 2001, 22:12
Whenever i read something about Nen Ami Jion and the (Maniwa) Nen Ryu i'm confused, because if Nen Ami Jion is the founder of the (Maniwa) Nen Ryu and the Maniwa Nen Ryu - as we know - still exist today, this must be the oldest extant Ryu. But - also "common knowledge" - the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu is said to be the oldest extant Ryu. So what's right and what's wrong...maybe someone could shed some light on me...


regards

william jensen
11th January 2001, 22:53
As noted by Prof Friday above, it is doubtful that Nen Ami Jion created the kusarigama techniques of Isshin ryu. There simply is no evidence available to support that claim. The densho (scrolls) of Maniwa Nen ryu, while of a later date than Nen Ami Jion, are concerned with the tradition's primary weapons (sword, naginata, spear) in addition to some esoteric teachings.

Just to clarify the beginning of Maniwa Nen ryu, it dates from 1591 when Higuchi Matashichiro received 'inka' from Akamatsu Gion. According to legend, in 1368 Nen Ami Jion created Nen ryu after receiving a vision. He lived in what today is southern Nagano Prefecture where he is believed to have taught Nen ryu to 14 disciples until his death.

Eric Montes
12th January 2001, 07:23
Ruediger,
Re your post:

"Whenever i read something about Nen Ami Jion and the (Maniwa) Nen Ryu i'm confused, because if Nen Ami Jion is the founder of the (Maniwa) Nen Ryu and the Maniwa Nen Ryu - as we know - still exist today, this must be the oldest extant Ryu. But - also "common knowledge" - the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu is said to be the oldest extant Ryu. So what's right and what's wrong...maybe someone could shed some light on me... "

If I remember correctly(my references are all in boxes in the moment) Draeger lists Shinto ryu, Chujo Ryu and Nen ryu as the oldest recorded ryu. But none of these have existed for a great many years,

But,
Derivative ryu are currently practiced:

Shinto Ryu ---> Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, Kashima Shinto Ryu, Kashima Shin Ryu

Nen Ryu ---> Maniwa Nen Ryu

Chujo ryu ---> ???[anyone?]

Draeger may not be the ultimate reference, I would have to spend much more time with the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten (read lots of time)to track down the actual references.

I hope this is of assistance.

Eric

Ruediger
12th January 2001, 08:33
William, Eric,

thank you very much for your answers

regards

Erik Hallstensson
12th January 2001, 11:19
Thank you mr. Friday and others for the quick and informative answers.
Maybe the next thing to discuss would be the Chujo-Ryu...

Erik

Meik Skoss
16th January 2001, 04:27
Probably the best guy to talk to about Nen Ami Jion is Bill Jensen, an exponent of Maniwa Nen-ryu who trained with the former (late) headmaster of the ryu, Higuchi Sadahiro, and is very skilled at it. (He holds a teaching license in the ryu as well as advanced technical/teaching licenses in several other classical systems.) If you are interested in writing to him, contact me personally.