active participation

[Indar]

my discussion with David Noble on this forum raises an interesting point;

there are thousands of people who have trained in SK, but can't or won't train currently. should they still be involved, and if so, how?

I would say that we should encourage people to stay in touch, organise social events, encourage discussion of philosophy on the WWW (discussing technique is better left to those that are actually training), and find other ways for them to contribute to ShorinjiKempo.

email and the Internet makes this a lot easier, for example a mail list of WSKO members (remember that WSKO membership is lifetime, unless you get kicked out), could facilitate a news letter twice a year. The only problem is man(woman)power, we need people to facilitate this.

any volunteers ? (multi-linguists preferred)

[Nadine]

Just out of interest, what are you doing Indar?

[Nina]

there are thousands of people who have trained in SK, but can't or won't train currently. should they still be involved, and if so, how?

Involved in what? Sorry, I have read some posts on this board, and it is not the first time, that I heard `complains`about the fact that kenshi, who don`t practice actively are forgotten...I mean if you want to chat about philosphy, or similar stuff, why don`t you just do so? I really don`t understand what this is all about, but I think that the main aspect of SK is about practice, maybe I am totally misunderformed and I am just catched by a cult?

[dirk.bruere]

my discussion with David Noble on this forum raises an interesting point;

there are thousands of people who have trained in SK, but can't or won't train currently. should they still be involved, and if so, how?

I would say that we should encourage people to stay in touch, organise social events, encourage discussion of philosophy on the WWW (discussing technique is better left to those that are actually training), and find other ways for them to contribute to ShorinjiKempo.

email and the Internet makes this a lot easier, for example a mail list of WSKO members (remember that WSKO membership is lifetime, unless you get kicked out), could facilitate a news letter twice a year. The only problem is man(woman)power, we need people to facilitate this.

any volunteers ? (multi-linguists preferred)

Good luck - I've been saying that for 10 years.
The biggest problem will be getting contact details from WSKO/BSKF

Dirk

[Indar]

Just out of interest, what are you doing Indar?

see my blog, link is part of my signature.

With regard to SK, I help to teach a childrens class, trained in Sweden and Germany last year. I was previously involved in BSKF admin, and am currently looking at strategy with a few other members.

[Rob Gassin]

Any attempt to contact past members (especially under shodan) should be made at a Branch Level. Occasions such as a 10yr anniversary, are good opportunities to do so.

Most people who sever from organisations like SK do so for a reason. A call from trhe Branch Master is ok, more persistent attempts to make contact may well amount to harassement.

Cheers,

[Indar]

Any attempt to contact past members (especially under shodan) should be made at a Branch Level. Occasions such as a 10yr anniversary, are good opportunities to do so.

Most people who sever from organisations like SK do so for a reason. A call from trhe Branch Master is ok, more persistent attempts to make contact may well amount to harassement.

Cheers,

Rob,

I'm not suggesting that anyone starts a spam campaign. I agree that that would be counterproductive.

I completed a MSc in Internet Engineering in 2003, and am interested in the social uses of the Internet. I did contact Hombu when I was writing my dissertation to see whether they would be interested in co-operating on a project to look at the way in which ShorinjiKempo is presented. I did receive a reply, but we were not able to make any progress at that time, probably due to language difficulties. I do not currently speak or write Japanese, although I have picked up a very limited knowledge of the language.

The new ShorinjiKempo Group website looks very promising. It would be nice to see it translated into other languages; French, Spanish, Italian, Hindi, Swahili, etc, etc.
I believe that WSKO has the resources to do this. Open Source Software and the development of Linux provides a working model; a book called "rebel code" is a good introduction.

I know from my own experience that many people sever from ShorinjiKempo because they don't see any progress in achieving the aims and aspirations that Kaiso envisaged; perhaps we can change this?

[Rob Gassin]

I know from my own experience that many people sever from ShorinjiKempo because they don't see any progress in achieving the aims and aspirations that Kaiso envisaged; perhaps we can change this?

Hi Indar,

Things must bre very different in the UK. Here in Australia, to be completely frank, most kenshi do not give a hoot about the aims and aspirations that Kaiso envisaged. SK is practiced first and foremost as a martial art for fitness and self-defence. Therefore their reason for severing from SK are quite different from the ones you allude to.

Cheers, Rob

[Panu Suominen]

If people choose not to train any more, why should we be asking them back? After all we are supposed to be educating people that can act as a leaders. Maybe we should let them make their own mind? I think that if we need to start "begging" people back, it would sign we have nothing interesting to offer them and we should address that problem first.

Though I find it little sad and waste of time when someone is practising Shorinji Kempo (just) for self defence, I have come to conclusion that after while they get involved in philosophy in some level or quit and this process is something that can be hurried. I don't see point calling after people and getting them involved.

On the other hand, even before the late changes in the WSKO policy, the philosophy of Shorinji Kempo hasn't been exactly the main focus. So if one is interested just the philosphy wouldn't it be better to get educated in buddhism and zen in somewhere else? The concepts introduced in Kongo Zen are not so unique...

It of course good thing to try to make a difference in a world but I don't think that we should consider so much how to get more people involved than trying to make step by step progress making ourselfs better examples to others. People will follow if they find what we are doing worthwhile. And I dont think that getting as much people as possible in Shorinji Kempo is the main point anyway. After all this is a movement to make the world a better place through changing oneself first...



I know from my own experience that many people sever from ShorinjiKempo because they don't see any progress in achieving the aims and aspirations that Kaiso envisaged; perhaps we can change this?

Can you be more spesific what is this process they can't see?

[Indar]

Can you be more spesific what is this process they can't see?

yes I can, but maybe not on the Internet.
Perhaps we can talk next time we meet up?

[Panu Suominen]

yes I can, but maybe not on the Internet.
Perhaps we can talk next time we meet up?

Of course we can. Live opinnion change is always nice..
However I have not planned any trips to WSKO events currently because I am very dissaponted in the course of events (like anyone cares :)). But I will contact you if I change my mind.

[Indar]

However I have not planned any trips to WSKO events currently because I am very dissaponted in the course of events (like anyone cares :)).

why? I have always enjoyed WSKO events, and I have trained at a few; Japan, Italy, France, Sweden, Kenya, Tanzania;
plus Spain, Germany, Switzerland;

I've even helped to organise one or two. :cool:

[Panu Suominen]

why? I have always enjoyed WSKO events, and I have trained at a few; Japan, Italy, France, Sweden, Kenya, Tanzania;
plus Spain, Germany, Switzerland;

I've even helped to organise one or two.

This is serious thread drift, but since you asked... I also spotted some bad choice of words in my last message. I didn't mean I have problems with the events spesifically but more generally with the way how WSKO handles things. :)

Some of the problems I personally have noticed include:
1) Too much emphasis on money making. Branded clothing and other stuff. Why the examination fees rises for higher ranks? Of course there are more greed organizations than WSKO, but most of them make less positive claims about their nature. If its about income I would rather see litle increase in brach pays.

2) Attitude of having fun together rather than driving oneself further. It is important to keep social contacts, have fun with friends and make new ones, but that should not be the whole point of Shorinji Kempo from what I have read about it. However for me it seems that the focus is changing to social aspects more. Because this is public forum I am not going in to details on this subject (and same goes to the next one). If we are just about social contacts eventually there are no reasons for people to join as and our cause is lost...

3) Too much central controlling that kills local progress. If I remember correctly informal gatherings from many countries to practice Shorinji Kempo are not exactly enouraged. (And some other discouraging stuff.) As I recognize that educating leaders does not mean that everyone should be able to do anything they want but there is something wrong with the organization if it cant trust its members judgement it claims to educate. As seen in this forum there seems to be general attitude not to state the problems openly. Even though it might not be the offical policy of WSKO, something is wrong if people feel they can't express themselves. I have hard time to see how raisining people not able to speak (and stand up) for themselves would do any good.

Many times I hear the reason that we need to protect our... WSKOs intellectual property. I find this somewhat contradicted to our cause. If we have the keys to better world or at least better life for individuals and our aim is to help other people to attain this, why this intellectual property need protecting? Doesn't it help us if some one else is teaching same things but under a little different name because more people are made better? Buddha did not try to rip with the teachings he made up why should WSKO try to make money with them...

These (and other problems) will shine trough in WSKO events. In some events more than in the others. But because I like the basic idea behind Shorinji Kempo I keep practising it but for I while I try not to spend too much money on it. If things go even worse I have to start doing something other.

Of course there is some greater plan that I just fail to see and everything is done for the good of all man kind and especially to kenshis. I just dont get it. And sorry about my whining. :)

[Tripitaka of AA]

I am inactive. I may be the only inactive regular poster. I have some views but I'm trying to think about them a bit before I put them to the thread.

My initial thoughts are based on my own experience and I've been trying to consider how other people feel or have felt about participation when training is no longer an option.

When I try to think back to all the people who "ended" their involvement with Shorinji Kempo... I recall that most of them simply found that "Real Life" had made it difficult to devote the time to training. Whether this is accepted or not, it was the reason given at the time. For many of those people, it seemed to be quite an emotional decision, something they really struggled with. Some of them needed some pivotal event to help them make the decision, even if they'd wrestled with it for a while... while others just disappeared, never to be seen again. The longer a student had trained, the harder it was for them to stop. All too often, the leaving has been marked by some "burning of the bridges" that made it quite clear that there would be no return.

I discovered this forum by following a link from the BSKF website, which I had taken a peek at occasionally over the years. Since I arrived, I have found it a source of wit, intelligence and at times some great nostalgic fun. It is a terrific encouragement to get back into training. Friendship, hard work and the challenge of learning something new... it all comes across in the topics raised and the various answers from around the world. It is an absolutely useless alternative to genuine training, but is far better than nothing at all.

I don't know how I feel about encouraging Kenshi to offer their services to each other. I think many people would find this an unwelcome intrusion... until they were very comfortable with the people in their club, then the nearby clubs and then the organisation above. People should be cautious about getting into something before they know who they are dealing with.

[Nina]

I've been saying that for 10 years.
The biggest problem will be getting contact details from WSKO/BSKF

Could you please enlighten me, what kind of network you would like to built up, since I am still in the dark? Thank you.

[JL.]

Gassho!

Panu-san has raised a number of serious points. I'll comment on some as far as I see myself fit to.


1) Too much emphasis on money making. Branded clothing and other stuff. Why the examination fees rises for higher ranks? Of course there are more greed organizations than WSKO, but most of them make less positive claims about their nature. If its about income I would rather see litle increase in brach pays. This is a very serious accusation for a non-profit organisation. Personally I don't actually see an "emphasis on money making" in WSKO or any other part of Shorinjikempo. But maybe that's just outside of my experience so far.
"Branded clothing and other stuff" I don't have any problems with, I like wearing them. And what I've seen (on the WSKO homepage and elsewhere) is in fact not even remotely enough to accuse an organization this size of an "emphasis on money making".
I don't know about the examination fees since I'm only Shodan myself. Maybe there's a higher amount of bureaucratic expense? Maybe someone else can shed some light on this point ...



3) Too much central controlling that kills local progress. If I remember correctly informal gatherings from many countries to practice Shorinji Kempo are not exactly enouraged. (And some other discouraging stuff.) As I recognize that educating leaders does not mean that everyone should be able to do anything they want but there is something wrong with the organization if it cant trust its members judgement it claims to educate. As seen in this forum there seems to be general attitude not to state the problems openly. Even though it might not be the offical policy of WSKO, something is wrong if people feel they can't express themselves. I have hard time to see how raisining people not able to speak (and stand up) for themselves would do any good.This is an important point that has been discussed here before several times and I agree with You on this one. IIRC, the reason given (here) was an apparently very Japanese attitude towards hierarchical control, which clashes with more independent/individual 'western' thinking. Of course this is a Japanese MA style and most(?) of us joined it (among other reasons) because of an affinity for that country – maybe we're cherry-picking here? ;)
I completely disagree with the idea that there is a "general attitude not to state the problems openly" on this forum. It is in fact my impression that there has been some serious and extensive criticism along those lines here.



Many times I hear the reason that we need to protect our... WSKOs intellectual property. I find this somewhat contradicted to our cause. If we have the keys to better world or at least better life for individuals and our aim is to help other people to attain this, why this intellectual property need protecting? Doesn't it help us if some one else is teaching same things but under a little different name because more people are made better? Buddha did not try to rip with the teachings he made up why should WSKO try to make money with them...I think You're missing the point on this one. If You've followed the extensive debates on this point here, You will have read that the main reason for WSKO's efforts to protect our intellectual property is defensive: there have been cases where simply not acting pre-emptively led to outsiders claiming rights on some style's property ... and winning!
Of course one might argue that WSKO is a "burned child" in this regard because on several occasions people have taken what they learned in Shorinjikempo, walked away, and "founded" ""new"" styles. I have no problem with calling that theft and with acting against it decidedly.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[Indar]

Many times I hear the reason that we need to protect our... WSKOs intellectual property. I find this somewhat contradicted to our cause. If we have the keys to better world or at least better life for individuals and our aim is to help other people to attain this, why this intellectual property need protecting? Doesn't it help us if some one else is teaching same things but under a little different name because more people are made better? Buddha did not try to rip with the teachings he made up why should WSKO try to make money with them...


I can understand your post, but I think that Hombu have a valid reason for protecting the teachings of ShorinjiKempo.

Knowledge and information can be used for bad purposes as well as good. My own experience is that training in SK has given me the confidence and ability to do things that I would not otherwise have been able to do. However, what I do with this ability is up to me. I could, for example use this confidence to try and dominate others in order to get my own way. I have seen a few isolated examples of this from some Shorinji kenshi.

Within any martial art there needs to be a system of "checks and balances" i.e. a regulatory mechanism. This ensures that no single individual is able to attain too much power, or to misuse that power.

[Panu Suominen]

Knowledge and information can be used for bad purposes as well as good. My own experience is that training in SK has given me the confidence and ability to do things that I would not otherwise have been able to do.

I don't see how trademarking has anything to do with abusive behaviour. :)
Trademarking and protecting ones name is one thing and claiming all rights to teachings gathered from many sources is another. First is ok but luckily the second one is not even possible but sometimes it seems to me that it is the aim.

We can be selective on whom we teach but it just is not true that just seeing our teachings would make anyone unstopable killing machine or any special powers what so ever. Since years of practicing seems not to changes some peoples fighting skills at all (of course it is not even the greatest aim) how the "teachings" could be so dangerous...



several occasions people have taken what they learned in Shorinjikempo, walked away, and "founded" ""new"" styles.

And why on earth is this a bad thing?!? If someone has practiced 20 years of Shorinji Kempo and for some reason he/she finds its organization and way of teaching lacking why cant he start teaching what he/she has learned to be right? He/she has no way to alter the organization and only way to act to make things better is thath he/she starts from scratch. Isn't that even one thing we try to teach to our kenshis, to act for the things one finds right and important? After all it is exactly what kaiso did. However if there is some other mishaps involved than just founding a new style it might be other thing.

And by saying too much empahis on money making I don't mean to imply that Shorinji Kempo is some kind of rip off. It is not. However I don't see how of ordering dogis form other side of the world does help the main aims of Shorinji Kempo and because of this I see no other reason for this practice than raising more money. I am probably just wrong but this is how I see it.

I think we should be more conserned about the way we teach people (kenshi or non) to be and how and for what aim we train ourselfes than who belongs to what organization, what they are wearing, is it approved by what organization and so on. If WSKO grows it is good thing but it should not be the main thing because since I last check the purpose was to improve ones own and lives of people around you.

(To drift back to subject) And for that reason outside Shorinji Kempo social club might be very good thing for people cased to practice, but not people to "contribute to Shorinji Kempo" but to get something they need to improve their (and others) lives. However I have hard time to see how this would work other than beign a net of friendships. So maybe the way to build such "club" is just to make friend with people that parctice Shorinji Kempo and still be there when they stop practising...

[Tripitaka of AA]

(To drift back to subject) And for that reason outside Shorinji Kempo social club might be very good thing for people cased to practice, but not people to "contribute to Shorinji Kempo" but to get something they need to improve their (and others) lives. However I have hard time to see how this would work other than beign a net of friendships. So maybe the way to build such "club" is just to make friend with people that parctice Shorinji Kempo and still be there when they stop practising...
Very well put. This would be the best way IMO. Trying to shame people into resuming their training, or trying to make them feel they are "failing" by not training is less effective and only serves to drive people away. It doesn't mean there should be a special room at the bar for "Ex-Members", which everyone can retire to after they've done a couple of training sessions, pat each other on the back and say "been there, done that, where's the beer?"... it is obvious that Shorinji Kempo is something that should, if at all possible, be practiced physically, with all your heart and soul, as often as you can. Being open to returning members simply makes good sense, as the investment made in them shouldn't be thrown away. However, Sensei have enough to do without wasting effort on trying to encourage returnees, so I can't see much scope for any more organised network than that to which Panu referred. One of the best things about Online Forums, is that they are not restricted by time zone, location or cost of travel, so everyone can take part... unlike some of the other more traditional ways of maintaining social contact.

[paul browne]

Gassho,

Sorry, gonna thread drift again.
I was thinking of ignoring some of what was written previously here but it's tone, and what I perceive as it's niaivity has 'irked' me a little.

Firstly there seems to be the misapprehension that WSKO is some kind of religious charity with a mysterious otherworldly source of funds. It isn't. Administration, taikai's, maintenance of hombu, research, resource production etc all cost. No matter how much International seminars may appear to cost the individual, they are still heavily subsidised both by WSKO and the Japanese federation, in the case of many developing nations to a huge degree. Membership fees etc. only bring in a part of that funding.
The fact that grading fee's go up as you progress is a common factor to all the larger martial arts organisations and progressivly rising examination fees figure in other endeavors as well. Why? I suspect at least in part it's simply a way of imparting value to something (like it or not thats how we value 'things' in modern society). It also discourages 'speculative' grading ("I'm here so I'll have a go").
As regards the purchase of 'Dogi', I thought this one had gone away. Ever since I started Kenshi who were so inclined have purchased 'Official' Shorinji Kempo Gi's as and when they wanted, usually on trips to hombu. Other's have used locally bought Gi or a combination of both.
No one from Hombu is running around checking. I use four Gi, Two old shorinji ones, a locally bought karate one and a Judo gi. Out of politeness I wouldn't wear the latter to a WSKO taikai but as for wearing them in my own own dojo, I don't expect Arai Sensei is so concerned he'll hunt me down in Dover :). When I get the chance I'll buy a nice new good quality Kempo gi, till then the others will do.
The other purchaseable items (towels, badges, pictures, car stickers etc ) that seem to have caused so much offence, well visit any major (even minor) Buddhist temple in Japan and you'll find similar types of things for sale. For that matter visit the Vatican, Canterbury Cathederal, Notre Dame, or even some churches and you'll find appropriate but similar items for sale. To make money. Because organisation costs.
If you don't like it feel free to stay home but to imply some kind of moral degeneration in those that are trying to run the organisation. That's both niaive and offensive.
I should add that I have almost nothing to do with WSKO, being a member of a small provincial branch and having not attended a large WSKO event in over 10 years.
Rant over.
Regards
Paul
Kesshu

Oh and as regards non-practising Kenshi, if circumstances or geography prevent someone training I don't think that should prevent them joining in discussions here, especially if they are as interesting, entertaining and well informed as Dave:)

[Indar]

He/she has no way to alter the organization and only way to act to make things better is thath he/she starts from scratch

I see a fundamental problem here. As Kaiso said, it all depends on the individual.

Of course it is possible to alter the organisation; depending, of course, on your pain threshold. :laugh:

[Panu Suominen]

The fact that grading fee's go up as you progress is a common factor to all the larger martial arts organisations and progressivly rising examination fees figure in other endeavors as well.
[QUOTE]
This is not true. Not all organizations held examinations nor progressively increase their fees. And even if they did I can have my opinion about it. :)

[QUOTE=paul browne;459153]
Firstly there seems to be the misapprehension that WSKO is some kind of religious charity with a mysterious otherworldly source of funds.
[\QUOTE]
As I said I would rather see increase in branch payments than making monopoly on mandatory equipment sell. What comes to the optional towels and stuff it does not bother me. And in my opinion it is not good situation that branches and individuals silently disobey orders from hombu by just practicing using what ever clothing they see fit. When giving orders caution should be made that they can be obeyed because orders that are not obeyed will gradually degenerate the authority. In my mind there is something wrong with the current regulations or in the way they are forced or in both. Why to pay for administration if we do not care what it says...

[QUOTE=paul browne;459153]
If you don't like it feel free to stay home but to imply some kind of moral degeneration in those that are trying to run the organisation. That's both niaive and offensive.


As far as I know I have not imply any moral degeneration in anybody. If I have I apologize because that is not what I meant. I simply don't want to support organization whose current course of actions is unknown to me and which actions I don't fully agree with. These are just my opinions and I don't see why any one should be offended. I did explain these issues just because I was asked to. If someone sees me as naive, ignorant or stupid because of my views it is their right.

To me it is very good thing that people here don't see these things as I see them. Shorinji Kempo is probably giving you something that you are longing for. I find some parts of it distressing and so I try to avoid them. By explaining my views my aim was not to upset any one but just to explain how I feel about the current situation. I am guilty of bad judgement in this. I'll be more careful in the future.

[Tripitaka of AA]

In this thread (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23315) on Budoseek, I asked people to describe the grading costs in their Art. Some of the answers probably go back a few years. Most of the replies so far are from American members. Most suggest a minimal kyu grade fee, just enough to cover certificate and belt, rising to $50 - $100 for Shodan and multiple $100s for higher dan grades. The Arts vary considerably, so direct comparisons are unreliable, but the responses have given a good "ball-park" figure I think. I have no idea how these figures compare to current Shorinji Kempo prices.


I don't see a need for Panu to make an apology, as long as he doesn't mind people disagreeing :). It's all making for good discussion I think.

[dirk.bruere]

I see a fundamental problem here. As Kaiso said, it all depends on the individual.

Of course it is possible to alter the organisation; depending, of course, on your pain threshold. :laugh:

Mine was exceeded ten years ago.
Not spoken to Sensei Jee since.

Dirk

[dirk.bruere]

By explaining my views my aim was not to upset any one but just to explain how I feel about the current situation. I am guilty of bad judgement in this. I'll be more careful in the future.

If explaining your views upsets people, that's their problem, not yours.

Dirk

[Indar]

Mine was exceeded ten years ago.
Not spoken to Sensei Jee since.

Dirk

One aspect of Kongo Zen philosophy that I don't agree with is the idea that "you only get one chance".
The relationship with ones teacher is an important one.
Sometimes they make mistakes.
Sometimes you have to give them a second chance.

I have no idea why you don't speak to Sensei Jee, and obviously I have no idea as to whether you, he, or both of you are at fault.
However, if you care about him, perhaps you should try again. If you don't, then it doesn't really matter.

[Indar]

If explaining your views upsets people, that's their problem, not yours.

Dirk

Dirk,

That is not always true;

for example; David Irving, holocaust?, Richard Dawkins; people that believe in God are deluded?

If I were to explain to you that I think that you are an idiot (which I don't), is that my problem or yours?

[Indar]

Oh and as regards non-practising Kenshi, if circumstances or geography prevent someone training I don't think that should prevent them joining in discussions here, especially if they are as interesting, entertaining and well informed as Dave:)

I agree. All that is needed is a little honesty and self-reflection.

For example:

"in my opinion, the best way to do gyaku gote is ..............
however it should be noted that I haven't practised it in a while"....

[Indar]

In this thread (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23315) on Budoseek, I asked people to describe the grading costs in their Art.

It's an interesting (an amusing) discussion, and it's good to see an open forum, with input from other martial artists.

However, it's not really comparing like with like.
Grades in SK are internationally recognised, you might say "world class".
This is not mere rhetoric, it does apply in practise.
SK grades are "expensive" for a reason; for example, when I graded to sandan, the Chief Technical Instructor travelled from Japan to the U.K. to take the grading.
In that respect, the cost was incidental. :p

[Rob Gassin]

I think that SK gradings are dirt cheap compared to other martial arts - are generally there are fewer of them .

My Nidan Grading at Hombu in August 2007 cost $116 Australian ($104 US). I thought it was so cheap, I gave a donation to my Branch. The number of gradings before Shodan in SK is 4 to 6 whereas many other art have 8 - 12 gradings over the same period of time.

At my Hapkido club, It is $50 AUS for Gradings before Shodan and there are 15 such gradings - total $750 AUS before shodan . The fee for shodan is $700 AUS. It decreases to $200 AUS for Nidan. Apart from the Shodan fee, the fees are not particularly high by Australian standards.

My view regarding WSKO and money making is similar to that of Paul. I was pleasently surprised to find out how cheap the Hombu training camps are $54.32 AUS for 4 days training - less than $14 AUS per day!!! + $30.42 for 4 lunches. How can anyone think that SK is making a handsome profit from this? Martial Art seminars I have attended here in Melbourne, cost at least $50 AUS for 1/2 day.

The same applies to dogis etc. It is very difficult to find a decent locally sourced dogi for cheaper than the SK 'blue label' dogi or to find a dogi of the quality of the Gold Label dogi for the same price, even without the embroided logo.

I respect Panu's right to his opinion and admire him for having the courage to post them on this forum but I think that if he looked at things more closely, he would find that the SK organisation is infact not a hungry money making beast and that practicing SK is very good value for money.

Cheers,

[dirk.bruere]

Dirk,

That is not always true;

for example; David Irving, holocaust?, Richard Dawkins; people that believe in God are deluded?

If I were to explain to you that I think that you are an idiot (which I don't), is that my problem or yours?

I think all people should be free to express what they believe, including Irving, Dawkins and you explaining why I'm an idiot. I may disagree, or not like it, but in a free society it *should be* my problem and not yours/theirs. When it is made their problem, like Irving in Germany being locked up for expressing his beliefs, then it is wrong.

Of course, this in the end comes down to a question of power and its exercise. If I don't like what someone says and I have the power I can definately make it their very serious problem. But is that the kind of society you want to live in?

Dirk

[dirk.bruere]

One aspect of Kongo Zen philosophy that I don't agree with is the idea that "you only get one chance".
The relationship with ones teacher is an important one.
Sometimes they make mistakes.
Sometimes you have to give them a second chance.

I have no idea why you don't speak to Sensei Jee, and obviously I have no idea as to whether you, he, or both of you are at fault.
However, if you care about him, perhaps you should try again. If you don't, then it doesn't really matter.

I suppose what lies at the bottom of it, from my side at least, was the realisation that we have nothing in common - including an interpretation of what SK should be. And given the way SK has moved over the past 10 years in my darker moments I seriously wonder whether I have wasted 25 years practising and teaching something that is dead or dying. The only reason I don't usually feel this way is that of the counterfactual - what would have I done with those years otherwise? Anything better? No idea...

Dirk

[Indar]

Could you please enlighten me, what kind of network you would like to built up, since I am still in the dark? Thank you.

You are missing the point.

What kind of network would you like to build up.

Tell us what you want to achieve, and perhaps we can offer advice on how to do it.;)

[Panu Suominen]

I think that if he looked at things more closely, he would find that the SK organisation is infact not a hungry money making beast and that practicing SK is very good value for money.
My english is probably bad and I gave wrong impression about my thoughts. I don't consider WSKO a money making beast. I just disagree with some of its ways to make money. :)

What comes to graduation fees. Maybe I was wrong. Mostly the costs of the examination are probably much less than the fee. However if examinations were billed by their actual costs it might create some injustices. For some people examinations would be very expensive and to others they would be cheap because their location and available examinators. However if I am asked why the next graduation is more expensive than the last one I have no good answer to give. Luckily it is not my job to give such answers.

Still there are many factors that give me an impression that the WSKO is trying to reform itself to more approachable using wrong kind of methods. I just see contradictions in what I have read what Shorinji Kempo should be and what I see the organization trying to achieve. I don't imply that WSKO is something bad or beast of any kind for me its actions just seems unreasonable. Nothing more nothing less. Maybe I just leave this subject for now. :)

[Indar]

Still there are many factors that give me an impression that the WSKO is trying to reform itself to more approachable using wrong kind of methods. I just see contradictions in what I have read what Shorinji Kempo should be and what I see the organization trying to achieve. I don't imply that WSKO is something bad or beast of any kind for me its actions just seems unreasonable. Nothing more nothing less. Maybe I just leave this subject for now. :)

Have you been to Hombu?
If not, and you are serious about SK (which I guess you are), then I suggest you go there and train with Hombu instructors before making any judgements.
I think that it's very difficult to get an accurate idea about SK without doing this, although it obviously depends on who is teaching you.

[TonyU]

It's an interesting (an amusing) discussion, and it's good to see an open forum, with input from other martial artists.

However, it's not really comparing like with like.
Grades in SK are internationally recognised, you might say "world class".
This is not mere rhetoric, it does apply in practise.
SK grades are "expensive" for a reason; for example, when I graded to sandan, the Chief Technical Instructor travelled from Japan to the U.K. to take the grading.
In that respect, the cost was incidental. :p

Actually there is a comparison to some extent. I belong to an association that is "world class" and answered on that forum. I also have studied and tested under the heads of the association that needed to be brought either here or from Okinawan. While I can't speak for Shorinji Kempo and am not accusing it of such, that is not an excuse to charge exorbitant fees. That's is just an excuse for some organizations.
Associations and organizations are headed by people, thus susceptible to the sins of human nature, greed being one of them.
My apologies for intruding in your discussion.

[Rob Gassin]

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the input

Do you consider US$104 to be an exhorbitant fee for a 2nd dan grading?

By the way, as a matter of interest, what does your MA charge for the same grading?

Cheers,

[Nina]

For example:

"in my opinion, the best way to do gyaku gote is ..............
however it should be noted that I haven't practised it in a while"....

Ok then just put your san dan in your profile and we will believe you....Sorry, it`s a public forum, if you ask for advice on a certain technique in a public forum you have to be shure to get answers from minarai kenshi, as well as higher ranked once (maybe not so often ;)). If you just trust on that, because a poster is a sensei or whatever, you are just stupid imho, I mean if you struggle about something and ask opinions, just listen to them, try to think about that, try to prove that in training or just throw away or at least try to find your own answers...
If you want to hear the opinion of a sensei, why don`t ask them directly?



You are missing the point.
What kind of network would you like to build up.


As I said before, I don`t really know what you are talking about....But nobody tries to explain it to me :(....I don`t want to build any network around kenshi, because I don`t see any nessecarity for that.

[dirk.bruere]

If you want to hear the opinion of a sensei, why don`t ask them directly?



BTW, Indar (of whom you are speaking above) is a sensei.

Dirk

[TonyU]

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the input

Do you consider US$104 to be an exhorbitant fee for a 2nd dan grading?

By the way, as a matter of interest, what does your MA charge for the same grading?

Cheers,

Yes and no. It all depends on how the association sets their price, where it's coming from and how it's used. For example, if used to pay for a certificate coming from a Hombu dojo in another country with shipping included and the prices are consistent for a few years with maybe a slight increase for inflation
then no.
I'm not sure of all the dan pricing but I paid $150 for my nanadan certificate. But that's my association and by no means the standard. That can be pricey for some and reasonable for others. I know of an association with overseas connection that charge upwards of 5 times that. For what, so the instructor can pocket 90% of that. Those same associations raise their prices by 100% every year. Those are the ones I detest, the associations that are in for the money instead of budo.
Of course I know I'm preaching to the choir here.

[Indar]

BTW, Indar (of whom you are speaking above) is a sensei.

Dirk

in a sense (sorry :)) yes, since I was responsible for the childrens class at Brixton for many years, and still help to teach there.

but officially no, since a Sensei in SK is someone who is registered with Hombu as a branch master, which I am not.

[Indar]

As I said before, I don`t really know what you are talking about....But nobody tries to explain it to me :(....I don`t want to build any network around kenshi, because I don`t see any nessecarity for that.

How long have you been training?
I started SK in 1989, and am just starting to understand what it is about.
Remember POBSABIC?

purpose, order, basics, scientific principles, amount, balance, individual capacity, continuous training.

SK is only a tool for you to use; no-one should tell you what the purpose of your life is.

[Indar]

Yes and no. It all depends on how the association sets their price, where it's coming from and how it's used. .

Hi Tony,

WSKO has different price bands, depending on the economic status of the country in which each member lives.
For example, UK, USA, and Japan are in the top price band; Kenya and Tanzania are in the lowest band.

WSKO receives a subsidy from the Japanese SK Federation, and also from other Japanese organisations. This pays for Japanese instructors to travel outside Japan and teach at seminars. So when we have WSKO seminars in the UK, we don't pay the real cost of instruction.

[paul browne]

Gassho,
Panu,
I don't expect an apology from you or feel one is neccesary, you are of course entitled to your opinion. I simply responded to it. (though on reflection I do think my wording was harsh....bad day at the office:))

To explain my response however, some qoutes;

Buddha did not try to rip with the teachings he made up why should WSKO try to make money with them...
My interpretation of this was the Buddha didn't, WSKO does. As has been pointed out they do charge, but on a sliding scale to reduce the impact to those that most need it and heavily subsidise everybody. Buddha didn't need to maintain premises, provide accomodation or run an organisation:).


Attitude of having fun together rather than driving oneself further. Bit puzzled by this one. If I interpret this right you mean that they aren't 'hard' enough. I have found the International study sessions at Hombu to have emphasised both good technical training and having fun whilst doing so. If you mean that the sessions are not heavy, physically exhausting sessions then I think you are mixing up training and practice. There is little point in travelling thousands of miles to take part in an aerobic kickboxing session. The purpose is to receive good technical training from the best people available. Doing the former will severely impact on the ability to achieve the latter. Further my experience of extended Juho sessions at Hombu are that you are not limited by physical fitness but by the limit to how much structural bending your joints can take and still maintain their integrity.


Too much central controlling that kills local progress. If I remember correctly informal gatherings from many countries to practice Shorinji Kempo are not exactly enouraged. Agreed but I've never heard of Kenshi ever being discouraged from training together at any time. Representing events as something they are not (ie Official study sessions) will be frowned on but otherwise I doubt WSKO even need know they take place (why should they). As to the content of training WSKO have an obligation to maintain the general standard of Shorinji and so emphasise the Kamoku (sp?) however thats no reason why you can't stray from it in normal training.


But because I like the basic idea behind Shorinji Kempo I keep practising it but for I while I try not to spend too much money on it.
Of course that is your right, I too am now limited as to how much I can afford to spend on what is, from a family point of view, a selfish activity (I know it is coz my wife tells me so :)). However we can't bemoan the fact that things cost simply because we are not willing to pay the price.


These (and other problems) will shine trough in WSKO events. I have yet to attend a WSKO event where any of this negativity has 'shone through'. I have always enjoyed excellent training, met many people who have shared my enjoyment for Shorinji and in some cases made freinds that have lasted many years and miles. Like Indar, if you haven't attended Hombu I would encourage you to do so, and build in some sightseeing and a visit to a dojo or Doin. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Regards
Paul
Kesshu

[Anders Pettersson]

Gassho.

Coming in a little late in this discussion I thought that I should add some things.

Concerning dogi, as some already have mentioned, the official dogi are very cheap considering the quality, in other words we get good value for our money. I can't find the same quality as the Blue Label dogi any cheaper here in Sweden. The Gold Label is also not expensive compared to other top quality dogi, the only problem is tax, customs and shipping. :) Usually one can get around tax and customs fees, and if one order in good time (using the surface mail) the shipping costs isn't that bad.

As for why higher ranks cost more than lower ranks I think of it like this.
If you compare the yearly contribution you make to the organisation with your grading fees it is actually cheaper as the years go by, you don't take exams every year and if you split out the cost over the years the yearly cost is usually lower if compared to when you were kyu kenshi.
See the exam fees as a part of what you pay to have the organisation work for you.

Those who don't know should also know that the examiner will not get any of the money paid for each rank, it goes to the organisation.

As someone also mentioned the cost is different for different countries. Countries with lower GNP will pay less. Richer countries will pay more, but even the countries with better economy will pay less than in Japan (at least for some of the higher Dan ranks).

Another change, that will take effect from this year's April, is that WSKO Hombu will charge a significant lower fee for each rank.
The basic idea is that the costs for kenshi will basically be the same, each federation can decide details but have to inform Hombu of what figures is the official cost for each kenshi.
The purpose is that the branches and Federations should keep an amount of each fee within the branch/federation for its operation, and just a small amount to cover the minimum costs for certificate and registration will go to Hombu. Once again, nothing of the fees is to be put in some instructors own pocket, it should be used to cover branch/federation expenses.

And we still pay small amounts to our organisation. WSKO branches just manage to bear about 15-20 % of our own costs (according to figures I saw a couple of years ago). The rest is sponsored by the Japanese Federation /Kongo Zen Sohonzan Shorinji.

I hope this helps to straighten out some question marks.

/Anders

[Panu Suominen]

If you mean that the sessions are not heavy, physically exhausting sessions then I think you are mixing up training and practice.

No, I don't mean that. I mean that for example "Handbook for World Shorinji Kempo Organization Regional Instructors Study sessions" states that Shorinji Kempo is "social education club" and not supposed to be a martial art school. However So Doshin refers Shorinji Kempo as martial art. I see this a change in the focus of our training methods and attitudes.

While not chancing the aims WSKO seems to change the ways to achieve them and to make the ways more pleasing to general public. What troubles me is that how can we progress towards original goals if we abandon the original ways to achieve them. To me it seems that we are transforming to same kind of sport as competition karate and long distance running (thou we lack the physical discipline of them). They are fine arts but to me they are targets are different. This is what I meant by saying the attitude of having fun rather than developing oneself.

To but shortly to me it seems that we are removing the parts that are hard for general public. However those "hard" parts are the things that I consider develop people the most. I just see these dogi, graduation and other issues as an example how the focus is shifting to what I observer as wrong things.



I have yet to attend a WSKO event where any of this negativity has 'shone through'.

These are not negative things as such. They are just things which can be seen and interpreted many ways or just ignored. By any means I don't try to imply that WSKO events are negative or bad and that some one should not attend them. They are attended by very enthusiastic and nice people and the events are great experiences.

[Nina]

If you compare the yearly contribution you make to the organisation with your grading fees it is actually cheaper as the years go by, you don't take exams every year and if you split out the cost over the years the yearly cost is usually lower if compared to when you were kyu kenshi.

So try to move on as slow as possible. ;)

[Indar]

So try to move on as slow as possible. ;)

maybe if you get de-graded you can ask for a refund ? :look:

[Steve Malton]

No, I don't mean that. I mean that for example "Handbook for World Shorinji Kempo Organization Regional Instructors Study sessions" states that Shorinji Kempo is "social education club" and not supposed to be a martial art school. However So Doshin refers Shorinji Kempo as martial art. I see this a change in the focus of our training methods and attitudes.
This may be a matter of translation and semantics, but "social education club" can be read as "An education club for socialising" or "A club for educating society". This second one is not a great leap from Kaiso's original goal - to rebuild post-war Japanese society. And even he didn't use martial arts to do this originally ;)

[Panu Suominen]

This may be a matter of translation and semantics, but "social education club" can be read as "An education club for socialising" or "A club for educating society". This second one is not a great leap from Kaiso's original goal - to rebuild post-war Japanese society. And even he didn't use martial arts to do this originally ;)
Yes. Very good interpretation. I don't disagree with the fact that Shorinji Kempo is "social education club" but as far as I know the ways of educating are found from the ways of martial arts and Buddhism. And in some extent I see that WSKO is trying to separate from these roots to appeal larger audience.

If our teachings and ways of practices are watered down so that they instantly appeal to everyone and are universally acceptable, it is quite possible that we don't have anything left to teach. I think that "social education" is needed because of people having wrong ideas in the first place and we should contradict those ideas. If there is no difference we probably can't straighten them out. This does not mean that we posses the ultimate truth but we should not change what works if some one disagrees with our teachings. We just should be more persistent to educate people.

I don't think that the "paradise in this world", which we are trying to achieve, requires assimilating everyone to Shorinji Kempo. This paradise is probably result from personal growth much more than from big change in world order. This is why I think the important point is not to change things to get every one practice Shorinji Kempo but to develop those who do to be as good as they can be. More people are bound to join if we achieve good results in what we do and hopefully human lives are improved one by one. I don't mean that we should not advertise what we are doing quite contrary. But we should remain true and not for example try no to mention "Kongo Zen" because it might scare some people away. We should stick to what we do well.

And I think that changing definition from martial art to "social education club" is not going to help getting larger audience. :)

[PeterL]

I have been following this thread with great interest thought most of the issues here do not impact me in the same way they do you because I am in Japan. My experience in SK is limited to my experiences here as a lower level kenshi (while most of the people commenting have been involved in teaching and running a branch or so it seems).

Some comments: SK is cheaper than most MA here in Japan (¥4000 for 3 90 min sessions/week) at about 30 euros or 40 US dollars this seems to me to quite a bargain even though Japan is the "high fee" countries. The doji are very reasonable priced (though you can get some a bit cheaper) but there is not a big "premium" on getting the SK dojos. Myself, since I am fortunate enough to be in a rich country do not mind if there some subsidizing of poor nations built in to my SK fees.

I do not nor have I ever felt that SK was about "getting money" in any way. Most of the SK goods are competitive in price with other MA goods. (though I think the protective gear is a bit over priced, and the Hoi is way over priced - ¥20,000 for a polyester robe) But I have no problem with that in that I believe an extra fees I pay go to a worthy cause. I was absent for 3 months (due to a non SK injury) but continued to pay my fees (rather than "take a break" because I feel they are very reasonable and goes to a worthy cause.

My sensei, has been teaching SK for abt 30 years (i guess- maybe more or less). I do not know about his past teaching schedule but at our doin, he teaches the kids (7;00-8;30) classes ad the adult classes (9;00-10;30) 3x per week. He also pays ¥4,000 per month!!!!! Of course his invlovement is not limited only to his duties at branch master but he also judges upper dan tests at hombu and taikais as well.

...............................
two questions:

Do Sk teachers/branch masters overseas also pay? (it is my understanding that they do)

Usage of sensei. I have noticed that you "sensei" seems to be used a bit differently (than here in Jpn) on this list. What do you mean when you use the word "sensei" (is it being used as a "certain rank" or position within your SK organization?

[Indar]

Usage of sensei. I have noticed that you "sensei" seems to be used a bit differently (than here in Jpn) on this list. What do you mean when you use the word "sensei" (is it being used as a "certain rank" or position within your SK organization?

As far as I know, "Sensei" refers to someone who is at least sandan and is registered with WSKO as a branch master.
It is possible to be a branch master below sandan, but (in theory) you will have a "mentor" who keeps an eye on you.

If I am wrong, (which has been known to happen :p), no doubt "someone" will correct me.

[Indar]

I suppose what lies at the bottom of it, from my side at least, was the realisation that we have nothing in common - including an interpretation of what SK should be. And given the way SK has moved over the past 10 years in my darker moments I seriously wonder whether I have wasted 25 years practising and teaching something that is dead or dying. The only reason I don't usually feel this way is that of the counterfactual - what would have I done with those years otherwise? Anything better? No idea...

Dirk

I have had exactly the same thoughts. And came up with the answer.
If the ShorinjiKempo organisations are not doing what you want them to do, change them.

[Indar]

Some of the problems I personally have noticed include:
1) Too much emphasis on money making. Branded clothing and other stuff. Why the examination fees rises for higher ranks? Of course there are more greed organizations than WSKO, but most of them make less positive claims about their nature. If its about income I would rather see litle increase in brach pays.

3) As seen in this forum there seems to be general attitude not to state the problems openly. Even though it might not be the offical policy of WSKO, something is wrong if people feel they can't express themselves. I have hard time to see how raisining people not able to speak (and stand up) for themselves would do any good.



1) Just been looking at the Harrow Shibu website, and seen that it is possible to buy a dogi from Japan for $32. Hard to see how anyone in a first world country can complain about this price.

3). Whenever I have travelled to Hombu I have had open and frank discussions with staff there, and also seen other WSKO kenshi doing the same.
I have heard that, in the past, people had been held back from grading for being honest. At sandan this doesn't concern me personally, although obviously it could be a problem for "junior" grades. It's also a good idea to learn what the rules are before you try to break them. :p
I agree that this shows a certain lack of confidence and leadership qualities.
I suggest that you take Kaisos' advice and "build horizontal ties". The quotes from his philosophy on the WSKO website are very relevant to this issue.

[Indar]

Yes. Very good interpretation. I don't disagree with the fact that Shorinji Kempo is "social education club" but as far as I know the ways of educating are found from the ways of martial arts and Buddhism. And in some extent I see that WSKO is trying to separate from these roots to appeal larger audience.


Mizuno Sensei wrote an interesting article about this some time ago.
I don't know if it is generally available, but perhaps it could be posted on the BSKF website ?

[Panu Suominen]

1) Just been looking at the Harrow Shibu website, and seen that it is possible to buy a dogi from Japan for $32. Hard to see how anyone in a first world country can complain about this price.

Add the taxes and tarrifs to that and it is not so cheap any more. Of course one can try to avoid those fees but how well that suits our other goals is different thing.



I suggest that you take Kaisos' advice and "build horizontal ties". The quotes from his philosophy on the WSKO website are very relevant to this issue.
(Do you mean the article at url http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/kaiso/42.html.)
Relevant in which way?
I just might not get the idea behind the article but to me it seems that the article is rallying people to infest as much administrative positions as they can and from those positions use power protect the organization and the members of it. The article states:


It's not about what you gain or lose. At the very least, don't you think you should defend your own organizations and help your comrades?

To me this does not sound very good and I am starting to see why Shorinji Kempo is beign considered as a cult.. :(

The other thing I don't understand is that why you think anyone who disagrees with the ways of Shorinji Kempo should try to change our organization and not to move forward? If someone thinks he/she has wasted his/her years doing Shorinji Kempo what good does it make to try to change the organization when one can start do something more productive? To me it seems like trying to change the christianity if one does not belive in God.

[Indar]

If someone thinks he/she has wasted his/her years doing Shorinji Kempo what good does it make to try to change the organization when one can start do something more productive?

If you think that you have wasted your time, blame yourself.
Are you honestly saying that you have learnt nothing from practicing SK?
If that was really the case, why waste more time discussing it ? It sounds like you are just looking for re-assurance. "Rely on your self".



To me it seems like trying to change the christianity if one does not belive in God.

One thing at a time. Anyway, I do believe in God.

[JL.]

Gassho!


Add the taxes and tarrifs to that and it is not so cheap any more. Of course one can try to avoid those fees but how well that suits our other goals is different thing.Taxes and postage are paid for by Hombu, that's the idea of the Blue Label Dogi. That's why it's so cheap and one can in fact order it from here for €28. One of our club did.
This does not go, however, for the more expensive Dogis, which is why the Blue Label Dogi was introduced in the first place.



I just might not get the idea behind the article but to me it seems that the article is rallying people to infest as much administrative positions as they can and from those positions use power protect the organization and the members of it. […]That's an interesting interpretation. Nowhere in the article does it state something about "infesting adminstrative positions". My personal interpretation goes more along the lines of, the state administration (at least in post-war Japan) doesn't (didn't) work so well, so go and build ties along other lines.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[Steve Malton]

Add the taxes and tarrifs to that and it is not so cheap any more. Of course one can try to avoid those fees but how well that suits our other goals is different thing.
Tax and duty came to about 30% total last time I did an order (although that was for the black label, not blue). So that's $40 (£20) total. Most students spend more on a night out.

[Rob Gassin]

Panu,

Reading your posts, I cannot help wondering why you are still doing SK. I sense a lot of anger, frustration and disillusionment towards the organisation.

Without trying to be flippant, it comes across like a lovers' tiff between you and the SK organisation, before a final break up. You come across as one who, on one hand is emotionally attached to SK but on the other hand has become hypersensitive of every one of its perceived (or real) imperfections.

No relationship is ever perfect. You can see the other side as a glass half full or a glass half empty. At the moment, your pereception of SK seems to be the latter.

If I am right, I think it is time for reflection. Ask yourself the following questions?

Am I still enjoying SK?

What do I want to achieve from SK? Will SK lead me to this/these goal(s)?

Does the benefit of doing SK outweigh the concerns I have about the
organisation? (list what you like and dislike about SK)

Does being part of the SK organisation cause me a moral or ethical conflict?

If I leave, what will I do instead?

Once you have answered these questions make a firm commitment to:

1. Leave
3. Have a 3 months cooling off period
3. Stay

If you choose to stay, focus on the positives you have identified above and try to turn off the negatives as the SK organisation is unlikely to change for you.

If I have misread your feelings or intentions, I apologize.

Cheers,

[Panu Suominen]

If you think that you have wasted your time, blame yourself.
Are you honestly saying that you have learnt nothing from practicing SK?

It was meant to be an hypothetical example. Wasting time is interesting term because time goes by no mather what one does. However you are right about the blame thing and it was not my intention to imply that anyone else is responsiple if someone is not enjoying what we are doing. And I have learnt many things while practicing Shorinji Kempo.



If that was really the case, why waste more time discussing it ? It sounds like you are just looking for re-assurance. "Rely on your self".

Good question. Maybe I have genuine interest on how other people see things.. To avoid impression that I need some kind of re-assurance I think I will stop discussing this matter also. :)



Taxes and postage are paid for by Hombu

Ok. If this is the case then it is really cheap. However I find it quite hard to belive it because paying taxes and fees would result using the whole sum probably even more. And I dont think that is very good thing either. The most bothering fact is still the monopoly, not the cost itself. But I think we have cleared this thing too. I think the dogis are bad in many ways and other people here think they are fine and I am wrong and ignorant. :)



That's an interesting interpretation. Nowhere in the article does it state something about "infesting adminstrative positions".

Could be. Like I said I am not sure wheter I did interperet the article correctly. And I did not see the implied connection with the article and the dicussion we have had here. This are the sentences that made me draw the conclusion you are referring to:


My initial reason for making Shorinji Kempo in Japan was that I wanted to make something like the Chin Pan organizations that existed in China. Their members ran from governors to rickshaw runners, from construction workers to solders. They held improvement of the nation (the people) as a common goal, and the organization's purpose was to help one another.
[..]
At the very least, don't you think you should defend your own organizations and help your comrades?

[Steve Malton]

They held improvement of the nation (the people) as a common goal, and the organization's purpose was to help one another.
Another one of those times where a person's presumptions come out.

I read this with an unspoken "to achieve this goal" at the end. After all, it is much easier for a group of people to change a nation than it is for a number of unconnected individuals to do so. Panu, you appear to be reading it with a "in whatever way they can" at the end, which would definitely sound more sinister. Unfortunately we can't ask the man himself what he meant, so we are left to interpret based on what else we may know.

[Kari MakiKuutti]

Taxes and postage are paid for by Hombu, that's the idea of the Blue Label Dogi. That's why it's so cheap and one can in fact order it from here for €28. One of our club did.
This does not go, however, for the more expensive Dogis, which is why the Blue Label Dogi was introduced in the first place.

Blue Label: Postage is paid for by the supplier. VAT and duties not (as Steve Malton said). The quality of the blue label is for beginners only, not for serious kenshi. In my opinion.

Larger sizes of the better official dogis with the mandatory name tags will cost around 150€, if you do not pay the VAT and duties. With these they will cost easily about 250€. Should we engourage our kenshi to avoid VAT and duties then?

A dogi of much higher quality is here about 110€, all VAT and duties legally paid for. Without the ShorinjiniKempo(tm) logo of course.
Not to be used at official events then.

[JL.]

Gassho!

Those numbers do not concur with my experience. I'm pretty positive that the Blue Label Dogi had no extra costs (that includes taxes) on it. And I like it (I'm not wearing it, though), so I would recommend it not just for beginners (why should they wear worse Dogi, anyway?) – of course that's subjective.
I own the second highest quality Dogi (Black Label, I think), which cost €56 in 3L without taxes and postage. Are bigger sizes really almost three times as expensive?
Also I would never pay over a 100 Euro for a local Dogi. High quality Dogis here are about €50-70 (see here (http://www.tennosport.de/shop.php?sid=0802191656C52lF5xP&wg1=2&wg2=31&view=wl) for example, though Karategi are generally not quite as durable as ours, I think).

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

P. S.: Yes, I know that I use to many parentheses. ;) JL
Edit: Could it be that the Blue Label Dogis are too cheap for VAT? JL

[Panu Suominen]

Another one of those times where a person's presumptions come out.

I read this with an unspoken "to achieve this goal" at the end. After all, it is much easier for a group of people to change a nation than it is for a number of unconnected individuals to do so. Panu, you appear to be reading it with a "in whatever way they can" at the end, which would definitely sound more sinister. Unfortunately we can't ask the man himself what he meant, so we are left to interpret based on what else we may know.
Yes, I understood also that the members positioned to strategical (or not so strategical) positions work towards the common goal. To me it seems that the position of individual means something in the progress. While its very good networking that individual kenshis help each others out and do favors to each others its quite thin line to corruption.

One may argue that it is not a such big deal because we have nobel goals. However the road to hell is paved with good intentions. On the other hand we are required to support our organizations, but on the other we should be obedient to those who are higher in the hierarchy. We might have not enough information about the goals of the action required from us. Its good to make connection to any people in horizontal and vertical directions but I am not quite sure should this kind of network to be used to defend our organization. Probably Kaiso did not mean using connections to ask unofficial favors but this article gives me such view anyway.

And I don't have anger or frustration against anything not at least in these matters. I try to see things as they are. Of course many things depend on interpretations but on those situations I try to take the objective view or pessimistic if for some reason objective is not an option. This way I don't get disappointed. But I appreciate your concern. :)

[Indar]

And I don't have anger or frustration against anything not at least in these matters. I try to see things as they are. Of course many things depend on interpretations but on those situations I try to take the objective view or pessimistic if for some reason objective is not an option. This way I don't get disappointed. But I appreciate your concern. :)

Panu,

I think that you are making things too difficult for yourself.
If I may presume, it appears to me that you simply don't know what you want.
This is not unusual, in fact it is a common problem for people living in rich countries.

Shorinji Kempo is simply a methodology. My experience is that it works very well.

What do I want ? I want to change things. Does Shorinji Kempo enable me to do this ? Yes, it does.

[JL.]

Gassho!


Yes, I understood also that the members positioned to strategical (or not so strategical) positions work towards the common goal. To me it seems that the position of individual means something in the progress. While its very good networking that individual kenshis help each others out and do favors to each others its quite thin line to corruption.This is a problem that I'm very aware of. I feel strongly in the same way You do, Panu-san: The line between helpfulness and nepotism is very fine indeed! Therefore I prefer not to try and use 'contacts' from inside of Shorinjikempo outside of it in any way that could put me in places I wouldn't, and maybe shouldn't, get without them.
Of course, it's also quite hard to tell where that fine line exactly is. Therefore I strongly advise constant mindfulness of it's existence!

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[Panu Suominen]

I think that you are making things too difficult for yourself.
If I may presume, it appears to me that you simply don't know what you want.
This is not unusual, in fact it is a common problem for people living in rich countries.

Well I think you are jumping to conclusions here. I have no hardships regarding Shorinji Kempo. And currently I want to finish my masters thesis.
And if you don't mind I find it quite amusing that by stating I don't like the way things are done currently I am presumed to be all kind of things. Maybe my english is just poor and I am choosing bad words to represent ideas behind them. Don't you worry I am more content to my life than many others. :laugh:



Shorinji Kempo is simply a methodology. My experience is that it works very well.

And I don't think that I have said anything contrary. I very much agree.

[Kari MakiKuutti]

Therefore I prefer not to try and use 'contacts' from inside of Shorinjikempo outside of it in any way that could put me in places I wouldn't, and maybe shouldn't, get without them.
Of course, it's also quite hard to tell where that fine line exactly is. Therefore I strongly advise constant mindfulness of it's existence!

I am an old fashioned person: for me family is most important, then friends, country and so on.

Shorinji Kempo is my 'extended family' and also in many cases friends. This means for me: more important than outsiders = non-kenshi.
If I select between otherwise equal kenshi and non-kenshi there is actually no selection at all.

(What do they mean, a cult???)

[JL.]

Gassho!


I am an old fashioned person: for me family is most important, then friends, country and so on.

Shorinji Kempo is my 'extended family' and also in many cases friends. This means for me: more important than outsiders = non-kenshi.
If I select between otherwise equal kenshi and non-kenshi there is actually no selection at all.OK, so hypothetically speaking, if You were facing a situation were You had to choose between saving one Kenshi or five non-Kenshi, what would You do?

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[luar]

Gassho!

OK, so hypothetically speaking, if You were facing a situation were You had to choose between saving one Kenshi or five non-Kenshi, what would You do?

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

I think this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=hFyl4GxBzEw) could be our guideline.

[JL.]

Gassho!

You've obviously not seen the sequel. :)

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[dirk.bruere]

Gassho!

OK, so hypothetically speaking, if You were facing a situation were You had to choose between saving one Kenshi or five non-Kenshi, what would You do?

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Lets make it more interesting. The choice is your child or five others that you don't know.

Dirk

[Kari MakiKuutti]

OK, so hypothetically speaking, if You were facing a situation were You had to choose between saving one Kenshi or five non-Kenshi, what would You do?
Hypothetically speaking: have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no?

Your question has no simple answer for me. Depends on the situation. Probably I would prefer the person(s) I know.

Anyway I was not originally thinking about life-threatening situations but more of everyday life.

[Kari MakiKuutti]

Lets make it more interesting. The choice is your child or five others that you don't know.
Dirk
An easy choice for me.

[JL.]

Gassho!


Your question has no simple answer [my bold] for me. Depends on the situation. Probably I would prefer the person(s) I know.
Probably not very surprisingly that is exactly the answer I was going for. It's not easy. That's why I see a fine line of judgments to make.
BTW, my personal standing answer is: I very much hope to never, ever get in a situation where I feel forced to make a decision like that.



Anyway I was not originally thinking about life-threatening situations but more of everyday life.I hear that. That doesn't necessarily make decisions easier, though, IMHO. Only the consequences are somewhat less ... dramatic. :)

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[dirk.bruere]

An easy choice for me.

And most parents I would assume.
But it's interesting to work back from the extremes into the grey areas.

Dirk

[Kari MakiKuutti]

You should think these matters through in advance. What are you willing to do in different situations. Will you use Shorinji Kempo?

I you put my child in danger which can be avoided by me attacking you using Shorinji Kempo I will do it without hesitation.

The only regret afterwards for me would be if the techniques used were not clean and effective.
No smilies here.

[dirk.bruere]

You should think these matters through in advance. What are you willing to do in different situations. Will you use Shorinji Kempo?

I you put my child in danger which can be avoided by me attacking you using Shorinji Kempo I will do it without hesitation.

The only regret afterwards for me would be if the techniques used were not clean and effective.
No smilies here.

Yes - but we are talking of relative values of people and how we determine what they are in our priorities. In my world not all people are equal.

Dirk

[Kari MakiKuutti]

In the real world people are not equal.
Someone is always bigger, faster, stronger, more intelligent, richer, whiter...

I am politically incorrecter.

[dirk.bruere]

In the real world people are not equal.
Someone is always bigger, faster, stronger, more intelligent, richer, whiter...

I am politically incorrecter.

Again you are missing the point.
I mean that I do not treat all people equally as, for example the law of the land should. I discriminate in favour of family, then friends, then people who share my beliefs/worldview, then fellow countrymen, then the rest of the world.

Dirk

[Kaenzig]

,then fellow countrymen...

You discriminate in favour of a group of people because they were born in the same part of the world as you? IMO, this is very questionable...

[dirk.bruere]

You discriminate in favour of a group of people because they were born in the same part of the world as you? IMO, this is very questionable...

All other things being equal, I discriminate in favour of people who can speak a language I understand. So it's far worse than you think...

And strangely enough, I discriminate in favour of people I *like* - how evil can I get eh? Or even "like the look of".

Dirk

[Kaenzig]

And strangely enough, I discriminate in favour of people I *like* - how evil can I get eh? Or even "like the look of".

Does it somehow satisfy you to provoke people with your embittered and intolerant remarks? It is hardly shocking for me, remember that I live in Switzerland, the country of Christoph Blocher.

[dirk.bruere]

And strangely enough, I discriminate in favour of people I *like* - how evil can I get eh? Or even "like the look of".

Does it somehow satisfy you to provoke people with your embittered and intolerant remarks? It is hardly shocking for me, remember that I live in Switzerland, the country of Christoph Blocher.

It is the truth, and its the way most people deak with each other.
If two people come to me for a job, all other factors being equal, the one I like best gets it. Totally subjective. You think I should flip a coin?

BTW, no idea who Christoph Blocher is.

Dirk

[Kaenzig]

It is the truth, and its the way most people deak with each other.
If two people come to me for a job, all other factors being equal, the one I like best gets it. Totally subjective. You think I should flip a coin?

I somehow thought you were implying that you like "fellow countrymen" more or that you don't like the "look" of foreigners/ immigrants. Remember English is not my native language so I have propably misunderstood you. If thats the case I apologise. I think it is totally reasonable to prefer people you like better if all other factors are equal.

[dirk.bruere]

I somehow thought you were implying that you like "fellow countrymen" more or that you don't like the "look" of foreigners/ immigrants. Remember English is not my native language so I have propably misunderstood you. If thats the case I apologise. I think it is totally reasonable to prefer people you like better if all other factors are equal.

That's generally what I meant.
Also that it is natural to prefer people who we feel are like ourselves. I certainly prefer mixing with people who share my interests than those who don't.

Dirk

[Kari MakiKuutti]

Again you are missing the point.Dirk
The story of my life :cry:
But my point was: equality is an ideal seldom possible and rarely achieved in the real world.

I mean that I do not treat all people equally as, for example the law of the land should. I discriminate in favour of family, then friends, then people who share my beliefs/worldview, then fellow countrymen, then the rest of the world.Dirk
I have to agree with you here. :eek:
Except that my dog comes before the rest of the world. :D

[Indar]

dummy post.

[Indar]

I you put my child in danger which can be avoided by me attacking you using Shorinji Kempo I will do it without hesitation.


if we are dealing in hypotheses;

someone you care about needs a new heart.
you can procure one by stealing some-one elses child.

not very tasteful, I know, but an illustration of the dangers of thinking, when you should be doing.

"It's pretty, Shorinji Kempo. But, the logic talk is a bit too dominant. More fundamental techniques, repeated over and over within free play, doing it so that people can really use the techniques, that's what I like."

http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/instructor/aosakass.html


Not directed at anyone personally, but it's better to do first, talk about it afterwards.

[paul browne]

Gassho



"It's pretty, Shorinji Kempo. But, the logic talk is a bit too dominant. More fundamental techniques, repeated over and over within free play, doing it so that people can really use the techniques, that's what I like."





Alleluha! Can we move on to something more positive now? Please!!

Paul
Kesshu

[Kari MakiKuutti]

someone you care about needs a new heart.
you can procure one by stealing some-one elses child.

not very tasteful, I know, but an illustration of the dangers of thinking, when you should be doing.
Dont think, just do it?



Not directed at anyone personally, but it's better to do first, talk about it afterwards.
If you have not thought through your choices and decided on the main principles fo yourself you might hesitate when you should act.

Example: I had a student who was attacked in the street. He saw it coming in good time but told me: Shorinji Kempo says 'do not attack first'.
Result1: He was injured but overcame in the end, he was lucky.
Result2: He won in the court, he was lucky to have witnesses.

I have thought about protecting my family and made my choices in advance. Of course others could find it better to only talk about it afterwards.

[Indar]

Example: I had a student who was attacked in the street. He saw it coming in good time but told me: Shorinji Kempo says 'do not attack first'.
Result1: He was injured but overcame in the end, he was lucky.
Result2: He won in the court, he was lucky to have witnesses.


Then the problem is with his instructor, who did not give him enough information. ;)

[Panu Suominen]

Then the problem is with his instructor, who did not give him enough information. ;)
Just out of curiosity what kind of information would have made the situation better?

[dirk.bruere]

Just out of curiosity what kind of information would have made the situation better?

The information that you do not have to let the opponent strike first in order to realise the fight has started. If you genuinely believe you are in imminent danger and cannot escape it, then you should strike first.

Dirk

[Indar]

The information that you do not have to let the opponent strike first in order to realise the fight has started. If you genuinely believe you are in imminent danger and cannot escape it, then you should strike first.

Dirk

sen no sen

http://www.union.ic.ac.uk/acc/shorinji/technique_goho.php

although, to be far, it's not something that you can really teach. or, to quote Mizuno Sensei : "I can't give you the techniques; it's up to you to take them".

[Kari MakiKuutti]

The information that you do not have to let the opponent strike first in order to realise the fight has started. If you genuinely believe you are in imminent danger and cannot escape it, then you should strike first.Dirk
This I learned (also) from this event

Of course you have to interprete the message of Tokuhon or Fukudoku-hon to accept this.

I was the instructor, but younger and more innocent then.

[Panu Suominen]

The information that you do not have to let the opponent strike first in order to realise the fight has started. If you genuinely believe you are in imminent danger and cannot escape it, then you should strike first.

Ok. I expected some deeper truths to be revealed. :laugh:

[dirk.bruere]

This I learned (also) from this event

Of course you have to interprete the message of Tokuhon or Fukudoku-hon to accept this.

I was the instructor, but younger and more innocent then.

One of the stories I was always told by people who did not do MA was of the 'black belt' they supposedly knew who was beaten up by a 'streetfighter'. Almost always there were two facts omitted:
a) They were probably kyu grade, not dan grade
b) They were attacked unexpectedly, or did not realise the fight had started until it was too late.
c) What they meant by 'streetfighter' was a viscious thug who would attack with very little provocation or warning.

It takes more than technical ability to defend against an aggressor who is vicious and "switches on" almost instantly. If someone threatens you with violence, and then makes a move, you better take them at their word.

Dirk

[Indar]

Ok. I expected some deeper truths to be revealed. :laugh:

seems to be a common misconception.

there are no deeper truths
if you work, you will learn.

[dirk.bruere]

seems to be a common misconception.

there are no deeper truths
if you work, you will learn.

There are 'deeper truths'. If you discover them yourself they are amazing. If someone tells you, they are obvious.

Dirk

[Steve Malton]

Of course you have to interpret the message of Tokuhon or Fukudoku-hon to accept this.
No you don't, you just have to make the connection. After all, we have shikake waza specifically for times when a conflict is clearly inevitable but the fight hasn't started. No-one ever said a punch couldn't be shikake, too ;)

[Panu Suominen]

Earlier in this thread I was wrong about the Tokuhon. Actually it states "one should not thoughtlessly strike the first blow". They have changed the translation from Fukudokuhon.

Strike first, strike hard.. :)

[JL.]

Gassho!


[…] No-one ever said a punch couldn't be shikake, too ;)At our Dojo it is explicitely taught that when someone steps into what used to be called "danger space" this can(!) be an attack already. In that case a strike – and even more sensibly a kick – can be a defense! That's Shikake waza.
Of course there are two major hitches: First is to distinguish between someone stepping close with the intention to attack and someone who doesn't have that intention. Second is explaining to the judge why one hit first. Can be tricky and depend on the witnesses.
Of course there's ways to deal with both problems, like training situational awareness (for the former) and stepping back while shouting "Go away!" when feeling threatened (for the latter) – if the adressee insists on stepping closer still after that it is quite reasonable to hope for a strike being seen by (neutral) witnesses as self-defense.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.