PDA

View Full Version : Teatcher and student etiquette



small-mike
10th February 2008, 23:27
Hi all,

First. I´m sory. My english is not the best. And maybe I allready have make some forum etiquette mistakes. Sory if I have.

My question (quite long stoory).

I have a student. He started with a great spirit. Soon he became on of my "favourite" (moust used) uke.
But after while he became more arrogant. He started to disagree whit me (loudly) and questionaising (doubting) techniques i teatch. He started to do techniques differently in my class (he´s own way and the way another student in my dojo do(this other student has learned he´s techniques elsewhere)). And finaly he went in to kyu examination without my permission(telling to the teatcher that he has my permission). After the examination he announced his new rank to all (by e-mail).

He didn´t even look me in to eyes. After I asked why he went to the examination? he just told me that it is my own fault of not teatching him enough...
I did narrowed down teatching him after he started to do techniques another way (he learned them from this another student). In one class we all 3 were practicing together, and I told him to do this one technique like i have teatched, not the way how he was doing it(with this another student), and he looked me and said, "I don´t know any other way". Even when we spent hole yesterday learning it (in my way). I was choked. It clearly looked like he wasen´t interested to learn from me anymore.

I can´t even imagine to act so whit my sensei. I feel like being betrayed. Maybe it is my own fault. I dont claim to be good teatcher. But what would you do if you would be me?


Yours,

Mike White
Aikido

Mitch Saret
10th February 2008, 23:39
I have had students like this before. If they want rank from you it must be done your way, plain and simple. If they go to a testing at another location and need your permission that is plain enough. Apparently this student lied about it. i would inform the ranking organization of this and inform him both prifvatrely as well as publicly, in the dojo in front of the class. If the ranking organization says it is OK, demote him as publicly as he promoted himself.

Jitsumania
11th February 2008, 04:59
It is apparent that your student has lost a great deal of respect for you as his Sensei, and unfortunately for himself to do what he did. Many of my students crosstrain in TKD and Brazillian JJ but they fully understand that when in the Dojo with me things are done in accordance with Ryu protocol
(I also crosstrain in other arts). I severed a 13 year relationship with a Student/asst. Instructor due to behavior unbecoming of a practitioner of our Ryu. He was bad mouthing our Shihan, this writer and other practitioners as well as speading lies and engaging in splitting behavior because he was not being promoted fast enough for him. That was due to lack of maturity in some areas that are expected from Yudansha in that position. I say your student has his reward in full--a damaged relationship with his teacher, seen as less than honarable by others, and a belt that was earned under false pretense. I say be done with him and concentrate on those who really want to learn and value the gift you are attempting to share. Severing a long term relationship with my student broke my heart as Shihan and I had trained him since he was 15 years old (for free). Students will come and go but the art remains.

Duanew
11th February 2008, 14:50
If you want to learn from me-you learn my way.
If you progress you progress at the rate I set for you.
I am the teacher you are the student.
If you disagree with the above leave before I kick you out (literally or figurativley).

Duane Wolfe

lucky1899
11th February 2008, 15:07
Mike,

IMHO:

You should definitely end your relationship with this student.

In addition, you should have a long conversation with your other student that was "teaching" him other techniques. You should be the only teacher in the dojo unless YOU state otherwise. In addition, any such "challenges" to you being a teacher should be dealt with immediately. I think this situation went way too far.

As a teacher I always encourage conversation and questions. It is important to keep an open mind, especially when training for "real world" situations. However, when training traditionally, we (all those in a ryu) must submit to the knowledge and training methods of the creators and leaders of the ryu.

Best of luck.

A. De Luna

Nina
11th February 2008, 22:48
Hello Mike!
It seems that your student cannot learn from you anymore, that`s sad for him, because he needs to search another dojo, but obviously also a sad situation for you, because you also invested power in his growth...May I ask how long he has been your student?



And finaly he went in to kyu examination without my permission(telling to the teatcher that he has my permission).

Didn`he need a signature or anything like that?

gendzwil
12th February 2008, 15:28
Why is this guy still in your dojo? Show him the door.

Brian Owens
12th February 2008, 16:59
I agree with the above posts that say it's time to end this battle of wills.

The only things I would add are that I would explain to the student why he is being dismissed, and that after a specific period -- for example 90 days, 6 months, or whatever -- he may return if he will agree to properly observe the teacher/student relationship.

drmarc
12th February 2008, 21:22
Mike:

You are the teacher. You must act like one at all times. You gradually allowed this student to not respect you, even in front of other students. A student has a right to train with whomever he/she wants. If that student studies with one person, then that student needs to follow that teacher. As a teacher, you have a right to teach whom you want to teach. If you choose to teach a student then do so with all sincerity. Both you and this student crossed lines that never should have been crossed.

Since my teacher has given me authority to test up until and including the rank of Nidan, this situation would not have happened at my school. If I were in your shoes, I would inform the person who gave the test as to what really happened. It should be up to that person to do what is right in regards to allowing your student to retain that rank, or to withdraw the rank. As to the student training in my school, that student would be shown the door and it would be explained to him, that the door represents an exit only and to seek training elsewhere.

Marc Abrams
Chief Instructor
Aikido Arts of Shin-Budo Kai

Jitsumania
12th February 2008, 21:47
Hi Mike,
It seems that most of the posters here share the same opinion about the student teacher relationship. I had an afterthought after reading your signature. It states that you are an Aikido practitioner. I know that in the Aikido circles that I travel in Texas, protocol is the order of the day. Thinking about it afterwards I found it odd that an Aikido Sensei would take it upon himself to test a student from another school without being in DIRECT COMMUNICATION with that students Sensei in order to clarify why he is not testing at his own school, with his own teacher. You may need to address this with the other Sensei. I sit on Aikido promotion boards for students from other schools only at the invitation of their Sensei, unless the Sensei directly asks me to test someone should the need arise. This protocol also is in place for the other arts I practice as well.
Maybe we are just old school like that, but it works for us. There is much wisdom in the above posts and I hope that it helps you in the future to avoid these pitfalls with other students.

small-mike
13th February 2008, 13:33
Hi all,

thanks you all from your advices. I respect them all, and they have helped me to make my decision.

This person has been my student for 2,5 year. He talked himself into examination. (teling lies and fairy tales). It did broked our student teacher relationship.

I know I let it go too far. But it has been kind of “good” experience to me too to grow to be better teacher. I have learned to be “harder” by the hard way. I know I have been too soft about these things. live and learn.


Yours,

Mike White
Aikido

kiai
13th February 2008, 18:57
The hard way is no doubt the right course of action.

Nevertheless, doing techniques a certain way has to have a certain justification or reasoning behind it. If that reasoning is explained, if alternate ways are tested and the original way of doing a technique is tested or open to investigation, that can be a learning experience for all involved. If the final answer is unequivocably "because that's how it's done" without the why and wherefore, the art can lose its vitality. Growth doesn't always follow the same exact pattern.

Now, I don't think such a Socratic method would work at this point with this individual student. And this doesn't mean I advocate dropping valuable traditions. But each tradition and technique should have an internal logic and reason for being so, or else it's either not well understood or window dressing.

trevorg
13th February 2008, 20:32
Whatever you do you must be in control, so take it.

Osu
Trevor

Nina
13th February 2008, 23:31
I know I let it go too far. But it has been kind of “good” experience to me too to grow to be better teacher. I have learned to be “harder” by the hard way. I know I have been too soft about these things. live and learn.

Maybe I am totally wrong, but I guess that you are in a way unsecure about your role as a teacher, so that it can be very hard to draw lines and make decisions. Maybe I am wrong, I don`t know...
But as far as you are still able to learn as a teacher, I guess that you are a much better one then a lot of teachers who gone that way before you...
Good luck!

Nii
14th February 2008, 00:19
Get rid of him. There are plenty of better students that can take his place =)

Though I have to admit that sometimes I may come of as a little disrespectful to my own sensei, but that is mostly because of my immense enthusiasm involving that martial art. Youthful energy perhaps? Or immaturity?

Of course this student of yours went too far but regardless in the future don't take a little disrespect as insulting. The student might just be too excited to learn =)

Jitsumania
14th February 2008, 19:35
Get rid of him. There are plenty of better students that can take his place =)

Though I have to admit that sometimes I may come of as a little disrespectful to my own sensei, but that is mostly because of my immense enthusiasm involving that martial art. Youthful energy perhaps? Or immaturity?

Of course this student of yours went too far but regardless in the future don't take a little disrespect as insulting. The student might just be too excited to learn =)

I have been a teacher for many years and understand immense enthusiasm, youthful energy and immaturity in students. Deal with it all the time 4 days a week. Disrespect must not be confused with the above. If you approach an instructor/Sensei,etc with attitude and exhibit disrespectful behavior it is exactly what it is, disrespect. It will be a factor to affect the student teacher relationship.
Don't mean to come accross as being crass to you NII, but one must label it for what it is.
When techniques are taught they should be open for examination and possible alternative application. This should occur only after the student has grasped the basic concept/technique application in accordance with their Ryu/School/training group,etc curriculum.
There are many ways to swing a stick, throw a punch/kich or apply a lock, but in the end what matters is wether it will impact the target effectively.

kiai
14th February 2008, 21:45
When techniques are taught they should be open for examination and possible alternative application. This should occur only after the student has grasped the basic concept/technique application in accordance with their Ryu/School/training group,etc curriculum.
There are many ways to swing a stick, throw a punch/kich or apply a lock, but in the end what matters is wether it will impact the target effectively.

And sometimes there's a progression, from hard to soft, linear to curved. First it's good to learn one way, perhaps the more linear, less subtle way, after which one may progress to the next way. Consider a hard block vs. a parry. In my experience, learning correct hard block form, with hip rotation and a solid root precedes being able to parry and use more dynamic footwork.

One of my kendo sensei put it this way (what his teacher had told him):

"Don't cut with your arms, cut with your legs.
Don't cut with your legs, cut with your center."

P. Hval
25th March 2008, 05:03
I agree with others' posting that whichever group/sensei promoted your upsetting student should be contacted; and that it can help a student to understand why "your way" is correct if it's explained to him/her. But my experience is some teachers speak, others just do and some demonstrate or do all three. It's the student's "job" to figure out if he/she's
following the teacher correctly and the teacher's job
to check if the student has got the right idea. Isn't
there a saying: the first 10 years, follow one teacher
and don't criticize or wonder if what (s)he's teaching is right; the next 10 years, a student can begin looking at others' styles; the next 10 years the student may choose which ways are best for him/her?

But anyway, "budo" is first and finally, about respect for the teacher, and for other practitioners. If a student doesn't feel that way and the teacher has tried his/her best, then the so-called student should be asked to learn somewhere else. Another saying from an Aikido teacher was: "To teach is to learn."
I'm sorry you had that sad experience but as another poster said, you have learned from it and that's a happy thing. Pam, Kendo (etc.)

BudoTiger
26th March 2008, 21:59
i agree with everyone else. he is plainly being disrespectful and it is time he was shown the door. i would sit him down and tell him "what you did was disrespectful, arrogant, and will not be tolerated. you can either leave the easy way or i can throw you out the hard way. your choice." and end it there.

small-mike
8th April 2008, 20:38
Hi all,
I just wanted to tell. This person has left my clup.

Soon after his graduation He send an e-mail to all important persons in my clup bad motuhing my skils in martial arts and my knowledge of teatching them. After this I made very clear to all that he can´t stay.

Now he is starting his own clup in same space where I teach...

Jeah. I know what you think...

well after all I learned something. Be careful

Mike White

drmarc
8th April 2008, 20:43
Mike:

I would suggest you speak to the owners of the space that you rent from and explain what has happened. They might decide that it is not a good idea to have that person teach in the same location.

This person's history should be open for all to see. People will decide whom to train with, based upon what they experience and what the history is.

GOOD LUCK!

Marc Abrams

BlackPaladin
8th April 2008, 22:50
Several B-movie Kung Fu flicks have this same plot.

Please skip the part about your two sets of students having a kumite.


Actually, this is also why have so many sects of religions, such as Christianity. Some guy starts to think more of himself than necessary, and starts his own thing.

small-mike
10th April 2008, 12:45
Well I think we have to find out whos kung fu is best in this town... so kumite it is

Just kidding :)

Mike

Lawrence Fisher
18th May 2008, 12:32
I take a slightly different view with regard this situation. Let me explain.

First of all it appears to me that you are a kyu grade and train under the guidence of a dan grade. If this is the case then surely the person who issued his rank and all those who train under you their ranks and you your rank. If this is not the case then I am sorry for the assumption. But if this is the case then the grade he was issued, regardless of any misstruths he may have anounced, has been granted under the same curriculum and observing eye as your own and shows his level of attainment. Therefore represesnts his level of ability in relation to your own.

The whole attitude of "this is how we do it here because thats how i teach it" is very closed. If a movement is demonstrated and somebody can ask the question "why" you should be able to answer this with a "because". The problem occures when the questioner can come back with a "what if?" that is the point where a movement requires further investigation. So to answer the initial "why" with a techncal, historical, spiritual or what-have-you type of "because" should be enough to demonstrate your knowledge and understanding of the practices you are instructing. If you can't answer like this, then rather than take the "just because" approach of, this is the way I teach it, loses the opportunity for investigation and personal developed understanding.

Now, for him to gain a grade and anounce it by email shows a person with very little faith in their actions. However, in my eyes grade is nothing more than a communication between student and teacher and goes no further. So in effect, his grade was recieved from another instructor and is only applicable to that relationship. Therefore it tells a larger story about the instructor who issued it and the student who recieved it.

For him to send a further email to other people bad mouthing you and your approach shows very poor aiki and tells more about the specific charater. I am sure that all who recieved the email took it for what it was worth, deleted it and still train with you. So no harm done.

If he does set up a class there, then how is he being insured? Surely he didn't gain a dan rank, get it registered, get a teaching license and sort all that out over night? If he is a kyu grade, then he shouldn't really be teaching a class without a registered instructor being present.

Well if you are both registered as instructors and fully insured to be teaching classes then perhaps you should go with one of your students and train under his supervision to show him the correct approach, or not depending on your personal ethos.

Personally I would have had a quiet word with him to first of all to congratulate him on his good performace during his grading and how sorry you are that you were not there to acknowledge it; secondly to let him know that this does not hold true during your class and until such time that you feel that he is worth that rank it is worthless in your eyes, let him know how offended you have been by his actions and why you felt that he should not be able to grade. I would then explain to him your dojo ettiquete and that if he can no longer adhere to this then he will no longer be welcome.

Anyway, it is good that you can see this in a positive light and have not lost anything of significance from it.

Good luck with the future.

Yours


Lawrence Fisher.

small-mike
12th September 2008, 15:25
Hi all,

It has been while. I have beeing busy practising. I´m nidan, and this my former student was 2 kyu.

He has now his own clup. They have couple class in a veek in same space where my clup has been practising 16 years. Monday they end their class and I start my own. After they leave their class this my former student shake hands and small talk with all my students.

For time to time I hear how he has tryied to get my students to go practising in their clup

couple days a go. I read from paper story of their clup. This my former student was telling how important in martialarts is to do exactly what teacher tells :) :)

Mike

C. Carstensen
12th September 2008, 16:20
Mike,
First of all there is no need for you to apologize for your english. I am assuming that you are Japanese. There are so many more Japanese people, especially Martial Artists who try to adapt to the English than there are Americans who try to adapt to the Japanese. For the last 17 years I have studied in a very, very, classical Gojuyru school with a very traditional American Sensei. I have struggled time and time again with etiquette and trying to understand the way my study must be approached in order to better understand the cultural context of the style that I study. We have from time to time had the kinds of students come to our school to train like the one you are describing. Many years ago, Sensei used to get excited too when he would see a student with so much potential who was seemingly so eager to learn. Every single time, the student wanted more, more, more, his own way, doing whatever he thought he wantedto do to way in advance of where he was suppose for the process of his learning. It was a struggle sometimes. What my Sensei did was just to follow the old tradition. It takes time to get to know the character of the individual you are training. As an insturctor you have the right to decide not to teach a particular student if they begin, at any time, to show that they are disrespectful to the art or to you. After all if you teach a student long enough, he or she will have tools that are possibly deadly. That is a very big responsibility that you have. You have the right and the responsibility to expect a student to do what you teach, when you teach it, and how you teach it or go find a school that will allow him to acquire information without any real learning. Actually, that is what he is denying himself by his behavior.
Maybe you need to talk with some other instructors who are masters and can help you to be stronger in this area until you can establish better habits for dealing with these kinds of students.
Do you have a group of instructors who

Brian Owens
12th September 2008, 19:25
...I am assuming that you are Japanese. ...
Yeah, Miika Kolehmainen is such a Japanese-sounding name. ;)

Actually, there is an ancient linguistic link between Finish and Japanese, both having Ural-Altaic roots.

But I'm way off topic.




...couple days a go. I read from paper story of their clup. This my former student was telling how important in martialarts is to do exactly what teacher tells :) :)

Mike, it sounds like you did your best with this student, but some people can never accept that they are in a lower position than someone else.

He wouldn't let you be the teacher, but now he wants others to treat him like a teacher.

Maybe some day he'll be on E-Budo.com asking us for help with his own problem student, and we'll all just say, "Remember when..."

Good luck with your club, and with the students you still have; I think you're better off without that other one.