PDA

View Full Version : Blocking surfaces



Richard Codling
27th February 2008, 11:17
We were going through Tenchiken dai ikkei and nikkei and Giwa ken dai ikkei the other night and a question arose:

Why do you close your fist for some uke and not others, eg uchi uke and soto uke?

I could only observe that when using the inside surface of the arm to block, as in uchi uke, uwa uke or shita uke, the hand remains open to present the muscles on the inside of the forearm as a slightly tense but still cushioned surface, whereas in soto uke, the closed fist adds a bit of robustness in terms of ensuring that the elbow cannot be easily bent (causing the block to collapse if struck) while presenting tensed forearm muscles ont he outside of the forearm.

As I mentioned, this is just an observation, if anyone knows any deeper technical reasons why things are done these ways, please share them.

Ta.

Rob Gassin
27th February 2008, 12:22
We were going through Tenchiken dai ikkei and nikkei and Giwa ken dai ikkei the other night and a question arose:

Why do you close your fist for some uke and not others, eg uchi uke and soto uke?

I could only observe that when using the inside surface of the arm to block, as in uchi uke, uwa uke or shita uke, the hand remains open to present the muscles on the inside of the forearm as a slightly tense but still cushioned surface, whereas in soto uke, the closed fist adds a bit of robustness in terms of ensuring that the elbow cannot be easily bent (causing the block to collapse if struck) while presenting tensed forearm muscles ont he outside of the forearm.

As I mentioned, this is just an observation, if anyone knows any deeper technical reasons why things are done these ways, please share them.

Ta.


Closed fist is used with blocks that involve flexing the elbow (soto uke, uchi age uke) and open hand for those involving straightening the elbow (uchi uke, uwa uke, shita uke). It makes sense biomechanically as closing the fist facilitates bending the arm - as in pulling in whereas opening the hand facilitates straightening the arm - as in pushing.

Cheers,

sheb
27th February 2008, 12:34
I think that for soto uke one needs tensed muscles on the outside. This one can do better with making a fist (at least me). Another point is that it would be dangerous for the (open) fingers (in the case of soto uke). ... and I also think, that one is faster and more flexible (in shoulder and elbow) with an open hand - necessary while performing uchi uke, less for soto uke ... as far as I know.

Richard Codling
27th February 2008, 13:54
Cheers Rob,

That's what I thought, I had a wee play with the closing fists and bending arms thing too. w.r.t. Soto/ Uchi Age Uke, the elbow seems to mostly stay at 90 degrees with the fist closed whereas in the open handed blocks the elbow does require to flex but not totally straighten to get the pushing or guiding action to unbalance the attacker.

Rob Gassin
28th February 2008, 04:27
Cheers Rob,

That's what I thought, I had a wee play with the closing fists and bending arms thing too. w.r.t. Soto/ Uchi Age Uke, the elbow seems to mostly stay at 90 degrees with the fist closed.

With Soto uke, I have noticed that many Japanese kenshi initiate it like gyaku zuki jodan. For hidari soto uke - they extend the left arm forwards on the outside of the attacker's punching hand and then bend their elbow, bringing their forearm vertical and guiding the attacker's hand away by twisting their body to bring their left shoulder back. This way, there is no hard contact between the blocking and punching arms. The attacker's arm is just softly deviated (guided) away with the back of the forearm.

colin linz
28th February 2008, 08:56
I was told once that the bending of the hand back adds tension and strength to the arm without using muscle power. Sort of like the guy-wires that hold up aerials.

lefuet
3rd March 2008, 11:05
I was told once that the bending of the hand back adds tension and strength to the arm without using muscle power. Sort of like the guy-wires that hold up aerials.

how do you think you accomplish the bending without muscle power ;)

but with bending the hand backwards the muscles on the backside get used to tension the inner (blocking) side. ...

Rob Gassin
3rd March 2008, 12:21
how do you think you accomplish the bending without muscle power ;)

but with bending the hand backwards the muscles on the backside get used to tension the inner (blocking) side. ...


I guess we're talking about uwa uke, uchi uke, soto oshi uke here. You're right, themuscles that pull the fingers and wrist back contract thus stretching their antogonist (opposite) muscles on the blocking (inner) surface of the forearm.