Kongo Zen and Death

[Tripitaka of AA]

I've been pondering some of the fundamentals recently. You know, "Life", "Death", "Football", that sort of thing. And it struck me that with the tiny amount of knowledge in my head, I don't know what the Kongo Zen attitude toward "Death" is. How do Buddhists treat the end of human suffering? Is there any guidance on how to deal with bereavement?

In Japan, the land of absorption, the local spiritual belief system (I'm not sure why I hesitate over the word "religion") Shinto, has been supplemented by Buddhism from China and Christianity from the West. It is not uncommon for a practicing Christian to have a Shinto wedding and a Buddhist funeral! Although there are probably Christian funerals, and Shinto too, the Buddhist funeral ceremony is the most common.

My children have recently been studying the Muslim faith at school (they are 8 years old, so the brush strokes are big), so my interest in the big questions has been re-awakened.

As I understand it, Shorinji Kempo does not teach Buddhism, but I gather there may be some answers among the readership here. I am a very naiive and uneducated person so please be gentle with me, assume that I know nothing at all...

[Indar]

http://www.bskf.org/philosophy.html

[Kari MakiKuutti]

http://www.bskf.org/philosophy.html
It is encouraging to see that the BSKF is publicly telling about Kongo Zen.
After all, us normal branches have been forbidden to teach this to our students.

[Tripitaka of AA]

Thanks Indar. That link was ideal. It is a beautifully written piece, that seems to encompass a lot of information in a small space, with style. Yes, I have seen the subject before, but I do like the way this was written.

[Indar]

It is encouraging to see that the BSKF is publicly telling about Kongo Zen.
After all, us normal branches have been forbidden to teach this to our students.

We are British................normal rules do not apply...........:laugh:

[Rob Gassin]

Does Kongo Zen believe in re-incarnation, like other buddhist sects?

[Kari MakiKuutti]

Does Kongo Zen believe in re-incarnation, like other buddhist sects?
No. As far as I know.

[Indar]

Does Kongo Zen believe in re-incarnation, like other buddhist sects?

"In this case, the true Buddhist view is that the impersonal stream of consciousness flows on — impelled by ignorance and craving — from life to life. Though the process is impersonal, the illusion of personality continues as it does in this life."

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/buddhism/essays/buddhism_death.asp

Like other elements of Kongo Zen, this can be interpreted in both a scientific and an esoteric way.
I that it is clear that we do live on after we die, in the memories and actions of the people that we knew, and whose lives we affected.

But in order to answer your question, I think that you would have to talk to a branch master at a doin.

[lefuet]

Does Kongo Zen believe in re-incarnation, like other buddhist sects?

Are we a sect? :eek:

[Indar]

Are we a sect? :eek:

possibly;

"The word sect comes from the Latin sects (from sequire to follow), meaning (1) a course of action or way of life, (2) a behavioural code or founding principles, (3) a specific philosophical school or doctrine. Sectarius or sectilis also refer to a scission or cut, but this meaning is, in contrast to popular opinion, unrelated to the etymology of the word. A sectator is a loyal guide, adherent or follower."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sect

depends if you see SK as a hobby or a way of life.
either is acceptable (in my view, obviously).

[Indar]

possibly;

"The word sect comes from the Latin sects (from sequire to follow), meaning (1) a course of action or way of life, (2) a behavioural code or founding principles, (3) a specific philosophical school or doctrine. Sectarius or sectilis also refer to a scission or cut, but this meaning is, in contrast to popular opinion, unrelated to the etymology of the word. A sectator is a loyal guide, adherent or follower."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sect

depends if you see SK as a hobby or a way of life.
either is acceptable (in my view, obviously).

and it's probably better to be a sect than a cult.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secte

[Rob Gassin]

Are we a sect? :eek:

My understanding is that the various branches of Buddhism are referred to as Sects.

The term 'Sect' is used in the Kongo Zen Tokuhon for this purpose. Therefore nothing sinister about it.

For what's it worth, being a practitioner of Shorinji Kempo does not necessarily make you a practitioner of kongo Zen.

[Tripitaka of AA]

So, as I noted in the opening post, Shorinji Kempo does not teach Kongo Zen in the Dojo around the world (only at Doin in Japan)*. Having offered that proviso (and repeating it), I shall continue the topic a little, if I may, hoping for answers from anyone who knows:

Kongo Zen, a form of Zen Buddhism, is concerned with the here and now, with how people act and how they interact with others. It doesn't place much emphasis on what happens after death. Does it have any "rules" regarding "life" itself? Is all life valued, including non-human life? Are monks of the Shorinji Sohonzan vegetarian, as in other Buddhist sects? Does it actually have any rules at all for its ordained members? The Kongo Zen sect may differ from other forms of Zen, in regard to these matters. If so, in what way?

It may be that I would need to be studying at a Doin in order to learn the answers to these questions. Would it be considered impertinent to ask on an open forum?

* For the benefit of visitors to this forum, who may not be aware of that fact.

[Indar]

Is all life valued, including non-human life? Are monks of the Shorinji Sohonzan vegetarian, as in other Buddhist sects?

Apparently so:

"Mankind has become the protagonist of the earth.
Animals and plants, all have life
The right to life
Somehow mankind has
Come to think that it only has the right to life
A single blade of grass or a single insect
Is of no consequence"

http://www.shorinjikempo-chizai.or.jp/01_02_e.html

Although So Sensei is not a vegetarian. :)

[Panu Suominen]

Apparently so:
...

That quote was from Shorinji Kempo information source. And like stated here many times, Shorinji Kempo has nothing to do with Kongo Zen anymore... ;)

[Indar]

That quote was from Shorinji Kempo information source. And like stated here many times, Shorinji Kempo has nothing to do with Kongo Zen anymore... ;)

perhaps you should inform Suzuki Sensei ;)

Director SUZUKI Yoshitaka (Kongo Zen Sohonzan Shorinji Representative)


http://www.shorinjikempo-chizai.or.jp/profile_e.html

[Tripitaka of AA]

It is getting difficult to have a thread without "politics". I understand the importance of such matters, but I had been hoping for something a little less "circular"... shame on me for being so fussy.

[John Ryan]

It is getting difficult to have a thread without "politics". I understand the importance of such matters, but I had been hoping for something a little less "circular"... shame on me for being so fussy.
I was hoping for some enlightenment as well. I guess the problem is that since there are no doins in WSKO, nobody knows the answer? :)

Certainly, as you said, Kongo Zen concerns itself (or places emphasis on the individual to concern him/herself) with the here and now. I've never seen any mention of death. I know there is a Kongo Zen marriage ceremony - is there a funeral ceremony? What events took place when Kaiso died?

I'd venture the suggestion that the emphasis on the here and no negates the need to think about death. If you have achieved the right things in life, then that is all you need to worry about. Maybe Dharma in its sense of a joined-up and causal world means that even after our death we have effects (Think for instance of the lasting effects of Martin Luther King's life, although choose any other historical figure for the same point). Although we can't do much about them thereafter...

I've heard quite often that Shorinji Kempo practice is entirely compatible with any religion. And this was before Kongo Zen was removed from the WSKO curriculum. This must surely mean that it has very little to say on death and thereafter, otherwise it would start contradicting alternate belief systems...

[Indar]

I was hoping for some enlightenment as well. I guess the problem is that since there are no doins in WSKO, nobody knows the answer? :)


"Robert is Seikenshi 4 dan and holds the priest rank of Shodoshi in KongoZen."

http://www.shorinji-kempo.se/

[Panu Suominen]

It is getting difficult to have a thread without "politics". I understand the importance of such matters, but I had been hoping for something a little less "circular"... shame on me for being so fussy.
Sorry. My bad. I just don't like it when we have to do one thing and say otherwise, but let's leave the "politics" out. :)

By no means I am not expert in Kongo Zen, but because it emphasis active participation here and now the withdrawing to a monastery and becoming a monk does in somewhat contradict goals of Kongo Zen. So are there real monks and monasteries in Kongo Zen?

Kongo Zen tokuhon (page 23) says it is quite pointless to have funeral rituals in certain way and it stance to other rituals is quite same way. There is no philosophical or religious need to have certain ceremonies to get "allowance" from greater force to do things. And stance of Kongo Zen to existence to god is quite negative as can be read from many sources. But these "facts" presented here are just my interpretation gathered from the information written about Shorinji Kempo, Kongo Zen and general Buddhism. So I have no real knowledge how things are done in Japan and Sohonzan Shorinji.

[Anders Pettersson]

"Robert is Seikenshi 4 dan and holds the priest rank of Shodoshi in KongoZen."

http://www.shorinji-kempo.se/

There are not that many non Japanese kenshi that have Sokai rank. Among the people that are members here on e-budo (although some don't post that often) I know four, and we all have the first rank which is Shodoshi. Current regulations make it a little difficult to get the next ranks.
Robert spent about 1½ year in Kobe and practised in Ashiya doin, during this time he got his Shodoshi.

There are eleven sokai ranks, and in order to open a doin you should have daidoshi (as well as being Daikenshi 5 Dan).
In Europe we have Mizuno-sensei, who if I remember correctly, has Daidoshi. So we have at least one who fulfils those requirements if it would be possible to open a doin outside of Japan.
I guess that there are a few instructors in North America as well who fulfils these requirements.

In the upcoming gasshuku in Karlstad in April we will have Morikawa Kazuhito sensei (as well as his brother Hirohito) as instructor. They have both been practising in a very traditional doin and Morikawa Kazuhito also works as a Buddhist priest (within Jodoshu). Morikawa Kazuhito speaks pretty good English and his sokai rank last time I asked him was Daidoshi.
I am sure that we can ask him to explain things concerning these matters when he comes over.

/Anders

[colin linz]

We have 1 nidan in Brisbane who attained shodoshi while living in Japan for around 12 months. He is the only Australian born kenshi with this ranking that I'm aware of. As stated in earlier posts, shodoshi ranking is not high enough to allow them to teach the religious aspect.

[Indar]

It is getting difficult to have a thread without "politics". I understand the importance of such matters, but I had been hoping for something a little less "circular"... shame on me for being so fussy.

I think that a crucial difference between Kongo Zen and other religions is that KZ does not claim to have any definitive answers.

Your sensei is well informed, you could try emailing him.
I was going to suggest Leons wiki, but some moron has hacked it (again).

If you need specific answers then perhaps you need to ask specific questions. :)

To try and answer your question, KZ mainly concentrates on the living, so when someone dies the important thing is to look after those that are still living; family and friends.

[Tripitaka of AA]

...Your sensei is well informed, you could try emailing him...

Indeed he is. I do send him emails very occasionally, but I don't presume to bother him with my light-hearted ramblings when he hasn't even seen me for 20 years. I save that sort of stuff for the collected bunch of time-on-their-hands chatterboxes on here and Budoseek. I think Branch Masters who are trying to offer the best training for their classes, while at the same time living half for themselves, deserve to have their free time. I have asked him in the past if he has any objections to my use of the online forums and I hope he understands that I would never do anything to go against his wishes.

I believe that the Online forums can offer Kenshi of all grades the opportunity to discuss matters in a less time-constrained environment. It doesn't always work. This subject seems to have hit a dead-end as there is no-one available who can give authoritative answers. Other topics work very well.

The precious time at the Karlstad Gasshuku would be surely wasted if the highly knowledgable Instructors were forced to spend time on a lengthy explanation of something that is really not that important, within the great scheme of things. Perhaps they might find time in an evening to share some thoughts outside the Dojo environment, for those who are interested. Perhaps they might prefer to have a nice meal and discuss Tennis! I know that the participants in the Gasshuku are guaranteed a fantastic learning experience, whatever the subjects cover.

[Ewok]

Kongo Zen is all about how you live your life, when you die then theres no much you can do about the living part. I've heard of Kongo Zen funerals, but no details. I might ask and see...


I was going to suggest Leons wiki, but some moron has hacked it (again).

Thank you :)

Less hacked, more taken advantage of the fact anyone is free to write what they want. All fixed and things have been changed on the back-side to help prevent it again....