Sword myth and fact

[Nekura]

Greetings, i am a Bujinkan practioner, but thoroughly interested in the Japanese Sword and it's art...i did kendo for a while, and enjoyed it very much. I just need a few questions answered and figured this would be the place to ask.

First off who is the gentleman in the photo seen in the upper left corner of our screens (of the sword arts forum)?

Did swordsmiths Masamune and Murasame really exist? are there any online photos of their craftsmanship or history?

Was Miyamoto Musashi really the "best" ? What about Yagu Jubei (one book i read speculates he may have been a "ninja")? links to info again would be appreciated.

These questons may seem infantile to some but the above names never cease to appear in many of the videogames i play, so i just wanted to know the source of these videogame inspirations. Thanx in advance and all the best for the new year.

[Joseph Svinth]

A list to lurk is Iaido-l. Try http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/archives/iaido-l.html

See also the links above, and http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/8187/Iaido.htm

For Musashi, see G. Cameron Hurst, "Samurai on Wall Street: Miyamoto Musashi and the Search for Success," UFSI Reports, 44 (1982); reprinted at http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_Hurst_0101.htm

In print, try Thomas Cleary, *The Japanese Art of War: Understanding the Culture of Strategy* (Boston: Shambhala, 1991) and Yagyu Muneyori, *The Sword and the Mind*, translated from the Japanese by Hiroaki Sato (Woodstock, NY: Overlook Press, 1986); See also the translation by Thomas Cleary in Musashi’s The Book of Five Rings and Cleary’s analysis of the text in The Japanese Art of War, and the article at http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue9/jubei.html

[ScottUK]

Hi Nekura,

I have a little info on Date Masamune on our MJER Iaido website:

http://www.masamunedojo.com

To see Masamune's work, just search the Japanese Museums - there is some online stuff, but the best person to speak to is Colin (listed top right).

Best Wishes

Scott

[ScottUK]

Whoops,

To find Colin's details, go back to the Sword Arts forum main page

Scott

[Dan Harden]

Scot

I had visited that site some time back and wrote to Fay regarding the many inaccuracies and misspelling in the description of her sword. Among the many mistakes;

1. Was the mention of old swords being dipped in oil and the new ones being dipped in paraffin?
(should read water and possibly, during WW11, oil on only SOME swords)

2. The folds being typically 900 layers
(more like 16,000-64,000 with 32,00 or so being more typical)

3. The welds having copper and gold in them
(they would vaporize at the low end 2300 F of the forge weld heat, never mind the high end that the Japanese use. It would also contribute to weld failures)
I have heard this nonsense at blade shows when people were looking at an oil film and seeing colors :)

4. Nie and Nioi are spelled wrong and referred to inaccurately.
I qoute
"The nea and neio is the folding process where the sword is covered with clay and then scraped off. This produces the pattern on the 'ha' - edge of the blade - when reheated."

As you can see they are spelled nea and neio respectively, and are referred to as the folding process? the rest of the sentence doesn't even make sense
Nie is the visible evidence of a enlarged grain structure at the transitional zone of the hamon. Sometimes mistakenly referred to as being caused by high heat upon quenching. ( this is even incorrectly quoted in Yoshiraha's book). In fact a high heat at water quench would crack simple carbon steels. What actually happens is that the steel was "held to long" at critical heat 1450-1480 F and the grains enlarged. While they look pretty, particularly in the Ji, it weakens the structure, and swords exhibiting strong Nei should probably not be used for tameshigiri.
Nioi is evidence of a fine granular structure. They appear misty in the transitional zone.

5. one of the flaws she referes to is more than likely an inclusion / blister that has nothing at all to do with the hamon and temeoring processes. It is a welding flaw

Anyway
perhaps the writer of the page would like to rethink that page of your site considering your teachers skill level and the quality of the blade, so as not to cause embarrasment and spread bad information.
Bad enough we still read about blood grooves and the little resevoir at the bottom of the inside of the saya to collect blood instead of dripping oil it was intended for

hope this helps
Dan

[Edited by Dan Harden on 01-13-2001 at 01:10 PM]

[ScottUK]

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the corrections - Fay has asked me to correct the page as per your instructions (I still have your original email - just very busy! I'll sort it in the next few days).

In addition, a member of our Iai club bought a few years back a couple of blades, one of which is currently in my possession. If I emailed you a few pictures of the tang, would you be able to shed some light on it's history? We hear it may be a gunto, but a lot of work went into signing it for just a gunto (8 characters).

Please let me know either way if you would be able to help out.

Thanks again for the corrections.

Scott

[socho]

Hi Scott,
I am sure someone on this list can help, but you might also look at Rich Stein's excellent site, the Japanese Sword Index, http://japanesesword.homestead.com/files/nihonto.htm
It has the most common date and signature information for WW2 blades, plus tons of other good sword reference material. You can also ask him question directly on the site.
Good luck ,

[matthew kelly]

i really can't recall the source of the myth that i read or was told about murasame and masamune. the statistical side of both familys' swords are beyond me - don't ask technical details, 'cause i don't know, but i think someone already covered that base above.

however, the myth i heard was interesting. even if it is just a myth, it still gives insight into how they felt about those swords back then.

masamune was considered the ultimate embodiment of the soul of a samurai (kokoro? is it soul or tradition?), a wondorously constructed blade that, so long as it was in the posession of a great swordsman, would come to personify the bushido and preserve life.

i think this comes down to the katsujinken/satsujiken philosophy and, murasame as the counterpart were regarded as unlucky swords, avoided at all costs. sometimes even the people who owned them were regarded carefully.

the myth continues to say that there was a test once performed to determine, once and for all, if murasame were truly cursed swords and masamune really the embodiment of life and spirit. one of each sword was taken to a gently rolling stream covered with red oak leaves. the blade of the masamune was placed on the stream's surface first, and it was said that the leaves travelling downstream went safely around the masamune to continue down the stream.

it's held that murasame attracted the leaves and cut them.

if that's not a sign of contrast in feeling, i don't know what is.


matthew kelly

[glad2bhere]

Dear Scott:

I recall an observation by S Donn Draeger in his writings that the mythes surrounding Musashi Minamoto are difficult to address as there are perhaps as many as four individuals during that time frame who identified themselves as this person. There is apparently some controversey regarding a couple of drawings and perhaps even the hand carved statue of Kuan Yi (Bohisattva of Compassion), however the BOOK OF FIVE RINGS is generally ascribed the the historical individual. I wish I could find a good resource regarding this individual. It seems that an awful MA cult-following seems to hold him up as a kind of transcendent poet-warrior. It would be nice to have some sound information to support this as I also run into information that characterizes him as often crude and affrontive. FWIW.

Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com

[ScottUK]

Dear Bruce,

I believe that your comment should be directed at 'Nekura' at the top of the page - nevertheless, thanks for that little bit o' info - I was unaware that Musashi had a few imposters - an age-old McDojo trick perhaps?

Best Regards

Scott

[matthew kelly]

who says a poet can't be crude?

okay, it'd be a good point to address that the bushi class were highly regarded, and i'm sure that most would've done thier best to maintain appearances. but there's always the exception to the rule; then, of course, there's the fact that while musashi's father was a samurai and had indeed been a retainer (wasn't it to the house of aishikaga?) to a daimyo of that province, for quite some time in his early years musashi was regarded as little more than a ronin.

could it be that young ben no suke never learned "manners" from his father because he was slain when his son was still very young? it's held that musashi avenged his father's death at one point in his checkered history.

anyway, i guess what i'm trying to say is that it seems pointless to wonder about the duality of musashi. he exists in both lore and historical accounts - and even if some of the stories are nothing more than stories, they prove what a great dent he left in the world of bujutsu.


matthew kelly

[Johan]

Musashi is a very interesting historical person. I do not think that he was very outstanding in the technical aspect of swordplay, but rather in the tactical and strategical aspects.

In his fights, as written by Robert von Sandor Ph D japanology, he does not win by exelent swordtechniqu, but by using the enviroment etc to his advantege.

[hyaku]

Originally posted by Johan
Musashi is a very interesting historical person. I do not think that he was very outstanding in the technical aspect of swordplay, but rather in the tactical and strategical aspects.

In his fights, as written by Robert von Sandor Ph D japanology, he does not win by exelent swordtechniqu, but by using the enviroment etc to his advantege.
.......................
With respect I think you seem to have missed the point. Swordsmanship employs various methods. To attack the opponents sword is a valid but a lesser technique. It is far better to unhinge him spiritually or physically then attack.

I think we have to look at the terrain of that time to understand Musashi’s thoughts

In those times there were very few roads. Towns employed officers to check the paths between villages were kept open. For horses, carriers and palanquin.

Two thirds of Japan is now mountains. In the Edo era the proportion was much lower, as there has been a tremendous amount of land reclamation. The original sea road from Kokura to Nagasaki next to my house is now about 25 miles from the sea.

With the many techniques of the sword now divided into specific studies I find one of the biggest downfalls in Japan is the inability to perform under different terrain conditions. Nowadays inside or outside would be a deciding factor in whether or not someone would win.

Some Iai people if asked to perform outside are so unstable and unbalanced that they are almost falling over and are a danger to themselves let alone other people. I think most Budo writings specify that we should be as versatile as possible in any weapon and also able to react under any condition.

Hyakutake Colin

[Johan]

Hyaku wrote "With respect I think you seem to have missed the point. Swordsmanship employs various methods. To attack the opponents sword is a valid but a lesser technique."

Well, I don´t think I have missed the point! Perhaps we don´t mean the same with the technical part of kenjutsu!

You can be technical skillful in kenjutsu but that doesn´t mean that you are a good fighter. A good kenshi uses his technical kenjutsuknowlede and adds his experience, psyco-physical and famillary of terrain.

This was Musashis strong point, not technical kenjutsuexperience.

Hyaku wrote "Some Iai people if asked to perform outside are so unstable and unbalanced that they are almost falling over and are a danger to themselves let alone other people. I think most Budo writings specify that we should be as versatile as possible in any weapon and also able to react under any condition."

Of course all bujutsu-kas should be experienced in different types of terrain.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Johan:

"...You can be technical skillful in kenjutsu but that doesn´t mean that you are a good fighter. A good kenshi uses his technical kenjutsuknowlede and adds his experience, psyco-physical and famillary of terrain.

This was Musashis' strong point, not technical kenjutsuexperience...".

I would like to support your position here, but from a little different point of view.

In the second half of his sword career, Musashi is reported to have abandoned the use of the sword in favor of the bo-ken and is reported to have fashioned such weapons impomptu from whatever was at hand.Though I am given to believe that perhaps his actual swordsmanship might only have been average (JAMA, S. Donn Draeger) I think it speaks volumes regarding his poise, understanding of strategy and overall combat deportment that he would take-on accomplished swordsmen with,essentially, a large stick. I would however, also invite anyone more knowledgeable than I to help me locate English-language materials that would help me expand my awareness of other accomplished sword-saints of Japan. Occasionally I hear of one individual or another but I could use some comprehensive biographical material if such is available.

best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com

[hyaku]

I am surprised when it is said that Musashi abandoned his sword for a Bokuto. The word abandoned sounds like “totally give up”. But this is hardly the case.

As a member of the Niten Ichiryu I would not wish to appear to be defending his ideals. However all of his techniques are based upon the fact that an aggressor has already committed himself to an attack. It is a devastating but defensive art that perhaps changed over the years as he got older. I would have thought that this was an advancement, not a lack of experience. Surely the epitome of swordsmanship is not to draw the sword at all unless one is threatened. This continues to not needing to carry one at all if you are confident that you are experienced enough to defend yourself with a piece of wood against a real sword.

In those times not to carry one at all could perhaps be likened to America today. Everybody has guns but hopefully few need to use them.

I think anyone bringing a sword to a Niten Ichiryu practice would be in for the shock of their lives. My Kendo students who won the 1999 All Japan Championships would not last many seconds either, as modern day arts are aimed at striking/cutting protected areas, not in between them.

It should also be said that a great many people in Japan change their weapon particularly for lighter and shorter swords to suit not only in their advancement in proficiency but age. I have many records stating this fact written by heads of Koryu. This is not such a common practice now as Iaito or Shinken made for Iai are light. Also length is no longer a problem as most Ryu standardized the length in line with the Tokugawa Bakufu.

Although I have great respect for some peoples knowledge and opinions, it is rather difficult to surmise what a particular ryu is about, without any practical experience in it. The proof of the pudding is in Gorin no Sho linked with today’s practice of it.

To the best of my knowledge nearly all the work that has been published on Musashi up to now is written by people that have never had any experience of the Ryu and its teachings within although of course the are many similarities to other ryu of the period.

Sorry I can’t offer any more English information. Mine is based on not what I read in English books or on the web but my study of Japanese literature, direct study under the Soke and many years of practising and teaching Budo here in Japan to win Japanese championships and achieve a fairly reasonable personal level.

Hyakutake Colin


[Edited by hyaku on 01-31-2001 at 01:41 AM]

[FastEd]

Originally posted by Johan

You can be technical skillful in kenjutsu but that doesn´t mean that you are a good fighter. A good kenshi uses his technical kenjutsuknowlede and adds his experience, psyco-physical and famillary of terrain.

This was Musashis strong point, not technical kenjutsuexperience


Are you seriously trying to argue about some 400 year old dead guys sword skill, based on a few articles and alot suspcious historical accounts?

Come on man lets get real!

[glad2bhere]

Dear Ed and Hyaku:

I hope this is not coming across as an arguement. Rather what I would want to express through me posts is a deep and abiding interest in the manner in which swordsmen of generations past deported themselves. So far the only true stumblingblock that I have encountered in such discussions is the natural tendencies of modern practitioners to project an understanding of past experiences by first pulling personalities out of their past conditions and into the context of modern times. I think an excellent example of such thinking happens with one of my Kumdo instructors who routinely interprets material in the Korean sword forms in terms of sport Kumdo which is pretty much identical to Japanese Kendo. From this view all motions become interpreted as based on strikes (either inflicted, blocked, or avoided).While the concepts of circularity, parry and continuity of motion are talked about, these gentlemen are unable to discern them in the Forms. In another way I think it is also difficult to "think out of the box" mant times, or as one counselor I know put it: "when you are raised as a hammer, everything in life looks like a nail". I had been exposed to a line of thought that espoused that the use of swords may have had its roots in the carrying of extra spear points in ones' belt and recently was re-exposed to this in ATLAS OF THE ANCIENT WORLD. BUT as much as people like to talk swords, nobody seems to have much interest in discussing this within the overall development of martial tradition.

Now I shared all of this to say the following. Perhaps its important to examine Musashi Minamoto less as a historical figure than one of many such figures. I think we would learn more if we imagined that his situation was not so much a stellar example of sword expertise as much as a lifestyle representative of a kind of ideal that a select group of individuals worked for. Taken from this view, perhaps Hyaku is on to something in his observations. No, Ed, I don't pretend to assess Musashis' expertise in light of anecdotal evidence. In fact, quite the opposite. I would hope that we could examine his life style in spite of "all the hype." This was the spirit of my question about other Japanese "sword saints" and material about them by which we could do some comparing. Does this make sense?

Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com

[Johan]

FastEd wrote "Are you seriously trying to argue about some 400 year old dead guys sword skill, based on a few articles and alot suspcious historical accounts?"

Yes I am! Often when we discuss historical matters there are very little written information, you have to draw your own conclusions. And be able to do that from whatever information you have at hand.

I think that it was S Hashimoto and G Ohtaki (unfortunatelly I don´t have their full name) in cooperation with european researchers Harris and von Sandor that made some of the important work in translating and rework Go Rin no Sho from the old japanese version. If there are more information about this work out there please post it.

I think that this subject, Go Rin no Sho and Musashi, are or was a area of knolede that engaged quite a number of researchers and historicer.

Discussion is one of the best ways of improving ones knowlede!

[hyaku]

I think that it was S Hashimoto and G Ohtaki (unfortunatelly I don´t have their full name) in cooperation with european researchers Harris and von Sandor that made some of the important work in translating and rework Go Rin no Sho from the old japanese version. If there are more information about this work out there please post it.
..................

If you spoke to Victor Harris he will tell you that reading Gorin no sho is like kiri kaeshi. 100,000 times is not enough.

The Japananese say Bunbu-Ichi (the pen and sword in accord). Practicing twice a day seven days a week brings a lot of things to light.

Try this.........

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/Hyoho1.html

Hyakutake Colin