Clearing stairwells

[William]

I wonder if anyone has any thoughts or experiences they would care to relate dealing with how to clear a set of stairs? How about in low-light conditions, or when there's smoke or other obscurants present? Or with/without grenades? And what about going up the stairs vs. coming down?

William Johnson

[John Lindsey]

Are you talking in regards to SWAT teams or what?

Aways best to clear structures by starting high and going down. As for grenades, they tend to roll downhill rather than uphill :-).

Have you ever played Rainbow 6 on the net? There are some interesting buildings with stairwells that have to be cleared the same way as in real life.

[William]

Actually, John, I am interested in any ideas - SWAT, military, LEO, etc - but I suppose my primary focus is military, using a normal infantry squad as a template (9 guys, 2 SAW's, 2 203's, 5 m16s arranged with one squad leader(m16), and two four man teams (Team leader, saw gunner, 203 gunner, rifleman). Normal squad equipment could include NVG's, IR markers and lights, regular flashlights, engineer tape, etc.

But I don't really want to limit the discussion to infantry tactics - although my motive is to eventually apply any ideas to infantry tactics.

Incidentally, I don't necessarily agree that top-down clearing is the best method, at least for infantry. I understand the concept (rats fight harder when they are cornered, but will flee if given the chance), surprise, gravity, etc. But I see the major problem with top-down as getting enough fire-power at the top to begin with. Although its another topic altogether, its one I'd like to hear more about - how do you get several men - say a squad - to the top of a building so they can begin clearing? They are heavy (averaging well over 200lbs with equipment), the equipment they have is awkward and slows them down to some degree, and they are more than likely not well-rested and at their peak (especially after extended operations).

Thoughts?

William Johnson


[This message has been edited by William (edited 05-28-2000).]

[Neil Hawkins]

What sort of stairway?
Steel or Concrete?
Spiral or double back?
How many floors?
How far between landings?
Doors on every landing or only top and bottom?
Fire doors that can't be opened from the stairs?

As you can see there are many questions and to come up with a viable plan they must be answered.

As a general rule from a military viewpoint, I'm with John, distribute troops around the perimeter either outside or inside depending on the size of the building, them a team (no more than three men in a stairwell) works down from the top.

Your aim (again military) is to clear the stairs, so roll a grenade down to each landing then follow after the bang. Why endanger yourself and your men. Let the grenades do the work and flush the quarry into the ambush downstairs.

Perhaps if you give us a detailed scenario, we can come up with some options from different perspectives.

Regards
Neil


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The one thing that must be learnt, but cannot be taught is understanding.

[William]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Neil Hawkins:
[B]What sort of stairway?
Steel or Concrete?
Spiral or double back?
How many floors?
How far between landings?
Doors on every landing or only top and bottom?
Fire doors that can't be opened from the stairs?

Good questions, Neil. You tell me. My experience has been that most of the time, detailed information is not available, nor is the training time to deal with several very specific scenarios. I guess I wrote the original question looking for more general sorts of ideas, rather than something applicable to a particular situation. Or specific solutions to scenarios that people have encountered. I'd like to get as many ideas and as much input as possible, rather than limit the discussion to a particular viewpoint or problem.

Again, top-down clearing : what's the best way to get the men to the top, initially? And grenades are good, absolutely, love 'em when I've got them, but they do run out, and you can't use them if you are dealing with possible firendlies. Other ideas?


Thanks,

William Johnson

[Phil_the_SP]

Use a MWD Team (Military Working Dog). Nothing gets the bad guys begging for forgiveness like a big dog.

[carl mcclafferty]

Mr. Johnson:
I was the commander of the Border Patrol's National Tactical Unit (BORTAC) for 5 years at Biggs AAF, Tx. Most of our CQB training came from Fayetteville area. We've used it all over this hemisphere. Sometimes its possible to clear a building from the top, but usually you have to do it from below. The problem with any building clearing operation is speed of entry. Having done buildimg entries, my advise is, if militarily you can take your time "bomb it".

Carl

[William]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phil_the_SP:
Use a MWD Team (Military Working Dog). Nothing gets the bad guys begging for forgiveness like a big dog.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hi Phil,

How would you use a dog? What sort of team (human) does an MWD come with? Would you use more than one dog/team? My experience with military dogs is zero, so I would love to learn more about how they are used.

Thanks,

William Johnson

[William]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carl mcclafferty:
Mr. Johnson:
I was the commander of the Border Patrol's National Tactical Unit (BORTAC) for 5 years at Biggs AAF, Tx. Most of our CQB training came from Fayetteville area. We've used it all over this hemisphere. Sometimes its possible to clear a building from the top, but usually you have to do it from below. The problem with any building clearing operation is speed of entry. Having done buildimg entries, my advise is, if militarily you can take your time "bomb it".

Carl<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for the politeness, but please call me William. So what sort of teams did you use? What was their make-up and equipment? As federal agents, how did you do your entries? Shotgun? Some sort of shaped charge? Ram?

I agree that speed of entry is critical, and probably the most dangerous point of the entire operation. Can you talk about any of the techniques you've come up with to get your men in and get a foothold established?

I have found, also, that it is quite often clearing happens in a 'bottom-up' way. What would you say - or anyone reading this, for that matter - is the decisive point in a building/room clearing operation? Does it vary situation to situation, or is there some common point where momentum is gained and kept? (Put that way, I think an argument could be made for the entry being the decisive point.)

Maybe we should start another thread on entries.

William Johnson

[Ronin]

I had a squad leader that did some live MOUNT combat during panama. He talked about it all the time like there was no other battle on earth, but I enjoyed the stories. The main points I remember are:

"Grenades are great for clearing rooms. Make sure you have plenty of them."

He Couldn't hear too good though. I have a feeling it had to do with having all those grenades going off inside a closed structure.

"Grenades don't always kill everybody, so go in shooting."

"Can't use grenades if there are friendlys in the situation".....Later on "Shotguns are great for clearing rooms" I said "What if there are friendlys involved?" Sargent says with a big ole grin "Don't shoot the good guys"

Thats about all the good stuff I can thinks of.

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Chris Neville

[This message has been edited by Ronin (edited 05-29-2000).]

[carl mcclafferty]

William:
It is mine and many tactical team commanders, including military, opinion that the initial entry point is the base of any successful entry. I would point out the failure of the ATF teams to successfully do a quick entry in either the top or bottom of the branch Dividian building. Both teams were annialated(sic). If a successfull entry (from police standpoint) is made at the very entry point than the teamleader can adjust as necessary to clear the rest of the rooms whether its a progressive entry or sealing room by room. Stairwells are clearable even in police work with pyrotechnics and than cutting the pie techniques, unless its decided to do a progressive which is do at full tilt.

Dogs are usually used to find a hidden subject under control of the handler after a building is cleared.

Carl

[Jeff Cook]

Carl,

Right on the money!

I would have to ask (assuming we are talking about a military mission), what type of mission? Snatch and run? Search and clear? Any non-combatants present? If no non-combatants, is the building tactically significant for our use?

I would like to see an opord or frago. The best clearing technique may be with indirect fire or Apaches.

Any other mission with the possibility of non-combatants or a snatch mission, I would trade the fragmentary grenades in for CS and/or flash-bangs.

For a roof-top insertion, pick a section of roof that can be covered either from another rooftop or by supporting attack helicopter. Also be certain you can cover the room directly beneath insertion through an external window (not perfect, but at least you can gas or smoke-out the room beneath the entry party).

Also, take a demo man with you. He may be able to make some other routes for you.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[John Clark]

Since you are in Fayetteville, I know there is suitable personel present there at Fort Bragg to properly instruct you in MOUT tactics. That would be a much better route to take then inquiring over the net when we do not have any specifics to go by.

What is your position, and in what unit?

[William]

I'd like to thank everyone for taking the time to reply. I understand that with an issue as complex as MOUT and CQB there are no absolute answers, but sometimes the right idea at the right time comes from improbable sources. And given the wide membership and diverse backgrounds of its members, E-budo is not all that improbable. And while John Clark may be correct in his contention that the net is not the best place to ask a question such as mine, I think it is allowable given the nature of the current forum. After all, as my spiritual guru Snoopy says, "I take my wisdom where I can find it."

And Johnny-boy, if you want to know my rank and unit, you're going to have to be a bit more polite than that.

William Johnson

[Joseph Svinth]

If you first take out the lights, then used motor oil and BBs work wonders for clearing concrete stairwells. For lineoleum, try neutral shoepolish and water.



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Joe
http://ejmas.com

[Jeff Cook]

John,

This certainly is the proper forum to ask such a question. Opinion noted, however.

Many times I ask questions I already know the answer for, just to stimulate intelligent and polite discussion.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Neil Hawkins]

John,

Sorry but I was busy at work and didn't have time to check back.

I accept that you may not know what the situation is before you get there. But the way I've trained, is devise as many different scenarios as possible, then practice. That way we have a range of options once we get inside and see that the stairs are made of toughened glass and have a wide spiral to them!

In the old E-Budo, we used the Tactical Descision Game (TDG) to look at these type of things, give a specific scenario, invite responses, then discuss the options. I think it works well, you can then use the best ones in training with troops.

As for getting the team to the top, I have used ladders, climbing gear, helicopters and adjacent buildings. I was always told if possible work down, because your exposure is much less. In a stairway, it is much easier to roll grenades down. If you can do it, so can the enemy! It's much harder to shoot or throw stuff upwards.

Of course this may not always be possible. So if you must enter from below, same rules as entering a room, only remember the threat from above.

Stairways are also easy to boobytrap so extra caution is required, that slows you down and makes you a better target.

The best option to me is secure the doors from the outside, either post guards or set alarms/traps and let them have the stairs.

Regards

Neil



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The one thing that must be learnt, but cannot be taught is understanding.

[Mollberg]

is throwing grenades a martial art?

[Jeff Cook]

Yes.

It certainly is martial, and if it is done effectively by repeated practice, it is an art. Especially when non-standard methods of deploying the grenade are used; situations that call for the CREATIVE use of a hand grenade.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[John Clark]

Sorry if I came across as an ass! I didn't mean it that way, just wanted to get a better idea of the type of situation you are likely to be in, and what kind of MOUT/CQB training you have, since stairwells are about the most difficult challenge in this type of environment.

[Joseph Svinth]

Personally I'd suspect that sewers and the like are at least as challenging an urban environment than stairwells, and if you are planning military rather than civilian MOUT, far more realistic. (Anything above ground has died since the 1860s, but even in Chechneya, sewers provided good 3-D urban maneuver capabilities.)

Anyway, to learn to successfully attack, often it helps to first learn to successfully defend. Then you know the risks, and can plan accordingly.

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Joe http://ejmas.com

[This message has been edited by Joseph Svinth (edited 06-03-2000).]

[the Khazar Kid]

Okay, let's say that these are military operations before 1860!! Now how would you clear the stairwells, using only weapons and tactics existing before 1860?

Jesse Peters

[Joseph Svinth]

From 1937-1945, the Japanese taught grenade throwing in the middle schools. At first they used live grenades but the kids were blowing the windows out and people were getting hurt, so they went to inert ones. The idea came from the Ivy League during WWI, but grenade throwing, knife fighting, and glider repair were all part of WWII Japanese Budo.

For pre-1860, you start a fire and smoke the people out.

[jerkyguy]

Hey Neil, I'll roll a grenade down to the next flight of stairs and you tell me if you can breath, see, hear, stand up, communicate and stand the pain you feel in your testicules. Stairways are a long tube and sound and overpressure travel well in tubes. They are very labour intensive as your men will tire quickly and they need to stay sharp as every landing is a blind corner. the next time you are on a stairwell, peek down or up and see how many floors you can see to. A enemy rifleman only needs the space for his muzzle at his end and the space for the bullet at yours to pin you down. A violent dynamic ascent or descent can get the job done and the other extreme is a very deliberate stealth through will save some lives but will ultimately turn dynamic as well. A lukewarm offensive will end your day early, short of the end result and minus your life

Gary Fresno
Staff\sgt
2\10th
USMC lejeune