Regarding the different background scenarios to Iaido-katas

[Fred27]

Over the years I've found myself hearing or reading different versions of what a iaido-kata is supposed to do. (the scenario)

I understand full well that there are differences between how different sensei perform kata, the odd detail here and there. But what I dont understand is how the background story can be so totally different from each other in some cases.

For instance, the kata Sodesurigaesi (as named & showed in this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmct4MVVlf4)), I've heard that the scenario is about cutting down an enemy after first pushing a line of people aside (like he does in the clip). However, I've also heard another version of the same kata: This version states that the iaidoka is in a room indoors. He sees an enemy on the other side of the sliding-doors and thus he draws his sword, advances to the doors, pushes them aside and strike the opponent down.

Another example I've heard of is the "Kabezoi" kata (as named & showed in this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41141zjmC9I)). One version of this kata explains how a iaidoka is walking through a very narrow alleyway and is confronted by an enemy. Since the iaidoka cannot draw his sword side-ways he draws it straight up and strikes downward. The other version I heard is that the iaidoka is walking on an elevated wooden porch of some kind that were common in the Edo-period enviroment. The iaidoka sees an enemy on the street below the porch and walks forward to the railing, draws his sword and strikes the enemy in the head down below. Since the railing is so high he must draw the sword upwards and stand on his toes when striking downward.
Note: I dont know if this is a MSR versus MJER sorta thing, I've only heard scattered versions with no real emphasize on which is MSR or MJER.

There are more examples I could name but I think the point has been made. So how can I tell which version is the one originally transmitted? Is there a kata encyclopedia somewhere thats reliable? "The one your Sensei says". Yes yes, of course! But I dont train either Muso Jikiden or Muso Shinden. :)

[pgsmith]

If you don't train in them Fred, it makes no difference! :) Actually, the scenario is not the important thing in kata. Kata are to teach movements and concept. The scenarios that are described are to help you envision your opponent in order to attain the correct movement. If one sensei likes you to envision it one way rather than another, there's no real difference.

[Brian Dunham]

Actually, these kata are Okuden,but it is true that the scenario is unimportant. The purpose (of some of these) is to train you to work within certain spatial confines/obstacles, using the previously learned mechanics ("bending", but not breaking them).
The idea of using Kabezoi to strike a teki below some sort of balcony/walkway seems pretty silly. I think it can be the other scenario mentioned, or another I have seen in which you are in the narrow alleyway,draw as you near the opening, and cut down a surprised passerby on the street. It doesn't matter,though, because the whole point is to train you to be able to bring your weapon to bear when you have no space on either or both sides.

[Ken-Hawaii]

First, Fred, these are considered "waza" in Eishin-ryu, rather than kata. Considerable difference in meaning.

Second, I agree with Paul that unless you train in these particular waza in this specific ryu, why would you expect to understand the underlying meaning, as explained by our sensei? Okuden is, by the way, a "hidden transmission" of the most advanced waza &, kinda' by definition, not really to be explained to the uninitiated.... What is transmitted to us as waza has meaning because Sensei told us so! Not much more need be said.

But...that being said, with YouTube making it so easy to plunk down everything as video for the masses, I'm not sure if anything is hidden these days :p !! How does YOUR sensei feel about everything he teaches being shown on the Web, Fred?

[Fred27]

If you don't train in them Fred, it makes no difference! :) Actually, the scenario is not the important thing in kata. Kata are to teach movements and concept. The scenarios that are described are to help you envision your opponent in order to attain the correct movement. If one sensei likes you to envision it one way rather than another, there's no real difference.

Ok, so I'm seeing a trend here: The scenarios behind a kata/waza are mostly irrellevant as long as it sets the "parameters" properly.


Actually, these kata are Okuden,but it is true that the scenario is unimportant. The purpose (of some of these) is to train you to work within certain spatial confines/obstacles, using the previously learned mechanics ("bending", but not breaking them).
The idea of using Kabezoi to strike a teki below some sort of balcony/walkway seems pretty silly. I think it can be the other scenario mentioned, or another I have seen in which you are in the narrow alleyway,draw as you near the opening, and cut down a surprised passerby on the street. It doesn't matter,though, because the whole point is to train you to be able to bring your weapon to bear when you have no space on either or both sides.

I got no opinion which scenario is right & wrong & silly.


First, Fred, these are considered "waza" in Eishin-ryu, rather than kata. Considerable difference in meaning.

Second, I agree with Paul that unless you train in these particular waza in this specific ryu, why would you expect to understand the underlying meaning, as explained by our sensei? Okuden is, by the way, a "hidden transmission" of the most advanced waza &, kinda' by definition, not really to be explained to the uninitiated.... What is transmitted to us as waza has meaning because Sensei told us so! Not much more need be said.

But...that being said, with YouTube making it so easy to plunk down everything as video for the masses, I'm not sure if anything is hidden these days :p !! How does YOUR sensei feel about everything he teaches being shown on the Web, Fred?

What teachings? I train Seitei Iaido only, not any koryu iai like i said. I've never done any okuden from MSR or MJER. I do own a few books on MJER and MSR plus there is a throng of websites with (different) descriptions on kata which has made me raise an eyebrow and come to this forum to perhaps get some solid info by experienced practitioners.

Thanks for the replies.

[Fred27]

How does YOUR sensei feel about everything he teaches being shown on the Web, Fred?

Oh, I might have been too hasty...Was that a rhetorical question? :)

[Kim Taylor]

Ok, so I'm seeing a trend here: The scenarios behind a kata/waza are mostly irrellevant as long as it sets the "parameters" properly.

The scenerios are extremely important Fred, if they weren't there wouldn't be more than one.

Think of the various kata as being instructional stories as might be told by the sufi, or a zen koan. Each story can be told in different ways, interpreted in different ways, or heard and remembered in different ways depending on need and circumstance.

Once you are beyond "put this foot here and cut there" how do you teach? What do you teach?

This goes far beyond lineage and tradition and technique, it goes all the way to teacher and student.

Kim Taylor

[Ken-Hawaii]

My question wasn't particularly rhetorical, Fred, but I hope you see my point that unless you are personally studying a specific ryuha, commenting on the whys & wherefores of waza should be left to sensei & deshi. Just because everyone can view even the most advanced waza on YouTube doesn't mean that they are qualified to kibbitz.

I'm certainly not the most senior student of iaido on this forum, but after actively studying & teaching other martial arts (judo & fencing) since 1951, I'm probably well "up there" in overall MA experience. To me, being able to visualize my opponent/enemy in MJER is all-important - otherwise, I'm just swinging my sword & moving my feet in some kind of dance. With judo, I certainly know where my opponent is, as he's probably trying to lower my center of gravity. With fencing, I also know where my opponent's blade is. Can't say the same for iaido. So how do you know just when to step, how to dodge, & where to swing your blade unless you have a scenario to visualize?

As Kim points out: 'Once you are beyond "put this foot here and cut there" how do you teach? What do you teach?' Sure, I learned Seitei Gata many moons ago, & Maeda-Sensei has even incorporated a few of those waza into our Chuden & Okuden practice. But those 12 waza (I'm tempted to call them kata) are used today solely so that iaidoka who study other ryuha have a common ground so they can be compared & graded. I quit testing for rank when it became obvious that the 1/8-inch difference I performed for chiburui where I was different from my grader was a lot more important to HIM than to ME!

In Eishin-ryu, Fred, once you really understand the meaning of a given waza, there isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to perform that waza. From "Te no uchi" to "Shu ha ri," there is a long progression, but when both my Sensei & the Hachidan Sensei who comes to give training & advice at our dojo say that there are many ways to visualize the scenario for any given waza, I'm inclined to believe them.

So let's pick on Sodesurigaesi for a moment. As I have been taught, if your enemy has his katana in hand, but has shielded himself behind a few bystanders (stupid ones for not moving their butts, but you still choose not to kill them :rolleyes:), you somehow need to get to him with your blade in hand, right? Well, this waza basically has you angle your blade back along your arm so that you can use your extended hands as a wedge to safely push through those idiots to kill your enemy. Is that the only way to perform that waza? No, I can think of several other ways, especially if I don't mind slicing & dicing a few bystanders, but it's certainly a methodology that has been tested in crowds (we spent about two hours practicing Sodesurigaeshi with a group of our students & bokken, & now really understand WHY you do certain things at certain times). Would you push with your hands that same way to open sliding doors? Well, I wouldn't, personally, but I guess it could be done that way, which in my mind just adds another scenario to the waza.

What I'm trying to say is that if you spend enough time in any martial art, Fred, you develop a well-honed batch of reflexes in reaction to different attack scenarios. They give me (at least) enough time to recover from an unanticipated attack so that I can figure out how to eliminate the threat in the fastest & most efficient way. At last count, we practice five different forms of Ukenagashi in MJER, based on both the ma-ai of the attacker & the direction of the attack. And Maeda-Sensei has been working for the past year with a few of us sempai to add our own dojo-level styles of waza for when we are attacked differently. For example, he's added a tachi version of Iwanami because we just might be standing instead of in tatehiza. Again, no right/wrong way to do a waza just because the scenario might be a tad different. But "muscle memory" is certainly what I try to develop, & I can't do that by blindly waving my katana.

My wife & I also study Shinto Muso-ryu jodo, accompanied by about 20 Katori Shinto-ryu waza that Chambers-Sensei has us study, & their waza are so different from MJER that at first I wondered about the mind-set. But as I progressed past the first year of training, it became obvious that jodo kata are based almost completely on the KSR mind-set, & it stopped bothering me (well, sort of :p). The "story-telling" behind each of those ryuha are a lot different, but the scenarios are about the only way I can keep them straight in my overly-full head.