Jujitsu Vs Chin Na

[Oliver Ryan]

I've been wondering about the similarities and differences between the two systems, did one influence the other? Are they totally seperate? I've never studied Chin Na but have seen several books on the subject and was wondering if they might inhance what little I know about jujitsu, pressure points, locks, etc.

Any input?

[shinja]

I've got a couple of books on chin na which I've found to be useful in my study of jujutsu.

I would have to say that it was probably the Chinese arts which influenced the Japanese combat systems. China's influence over all of asia makes this hard to deny. On the other hand, there was undoubtedly domestic innovation as well (After all, there are only so many ways to twist a limb).

As to books on the subject of chin na, I would readily recommend the books written by Yang Jwing-Ming. I've got two - Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na & Comprehensive Applications of Shaolin Chin Na. You find much you haven't seen in jujutsu, but you will find some valuable information regarding the mechanics of kansetsu waza.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.

[Neil Hawkins]

I can't really comment, I know nothing of Chin-na aside from what I've read.

But I have to admit that I am a little sceptical, there was little or no information available until very recently. I am inclinded to believe that a lot of what I've seen is strongly influenced by Japanese jujutsu. I have nothing to base this on, so someone please enlighten me.

I am not saying that it is totally invented, but I am inclined to believe that there were only limited locking techniques, and that the real techniques are included in the various styles of Wu-shu.

I can't see the chinese arts evolving to identical techniques as the Japanese ones. Much of Japanese jujutsu is derived from grappling in armour, and a large part is taken from fighting with weapons. These situations did not occur in China in the same manner.

But then again I'm just a cynic at heart.

Neil

[Edited by Neil Hawkins on 01-15-2001 at 04:35 AM]

[Karl Friday]

Originally posted by Oliver Ryan
I've been wondering about the similarities and differences between the two systems, did one influence the other? Are they totally seperate? I've never studied Chin Na but have seen several books on the subject and was wondering if they might inhance what little I know about jujitsu, pressure points, locks, etc.

Any input?

Which two systems are you thinking about? "Jujutsu" is a generic term (one of a handful, actually) for unarmed fighting methods in traditional Japan. There are several dozen styles of jujutsu around, embracing a pretty wide range of strategy and tactics (compare judo with aikido, for example).

As to historical development and influence, there was undoubtedly influence in both directions. There are several Tokugawa period texts that discuss the import of bits and pieces of Chinese martial arts--particularly unarmed techniques--during the period, and there are Chinese texts that discuss Japanese arts--particularly swordsmanship. And, of course, there has been additional cross-influence during the modern era.

But the specifics of what was invented where would be very hard to trace, and really don't matter much anyway. In the final analysis, techniques and ideas imported and exported were amalgamated into and with native systems (except, of course, in the case of some 20th century arts or arts that are specifically identified as foreign, such as judo in China or T'ai Chi Ch'uan [Taikyokuken] in Japan today); so that arguing, for example (as some Chinese instructors do), that Chin-na is the "ancestor" of Japanese jujutsu is at best meaningless nationalism.

[wanax]

Among other things, I study taichi with the current head of the Chen family. Assuming that their grappling techniques and general form have indeed remained unaltered for the last 300 years, as they claim, and chin-na being very much a part of their art, I would say their grappling is pretty much designed to snap a joint while the opponent is still on his feet, and that much of the grappling is a prelude to a strike. While throws do exist, they are in the minority to locks. I studied with Hatsumi and the Japanese shihan for about ten years; I would say that the Chinese version is somewhat less linear in application, and is not designed with an armoured opponent in mind. It may be that jujutsu was derived from a form of chin-na, though who, what, and when is anyone's guess. This probably didn't help at all.

[Meynard Ancheta]

Chin Na is just one aspect of jiu jitsu. It's not really a separate combat art but rather a component of an existing martial art style or system. Chin Na is what the Chinese called joint locking and is an integral part of many Chinese Martial Arts. Some styles have an extensive range of Chin Na techniques while others only have a sampling of it.

Styles that feature a lot of Chin Na techniques are grappling based like Tai Ji and Bagua. Because you've got to get a hold of them to twist their joints. That's why it's called Chin Na, seizing and locking. I found that martial arts styles that feature Chin Na also has a strong foundation in weapon based combat.

Chin Na is anything that has to do with sezing and joint locking. It's not a style unto itself. So it really doesn't matter what you call it. If a martial art style has some sort of joint locking it is Chin Na. How effective it is is another matter since very few martial arts styles perform Chin Na correctly. More accurately, very few martial artist understand Chin Na and cannot teach or apply it correctly.