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jonpalombi
31st March 2008, 23:06
For some time now, I have had the oddest experience when I tell people I am an avid sumo fan. Granted, few Americans are exposed enough to Grand Sumo to know anything about it. I usually get a response like, "Why would you like sumo wrestling?" I say, "Because I am a long-time student of martial arts and find it fascinating." My answer is invariably followed by the next question, "Really? Is Sumo a martial art?"

So, how do other "martial artists" feel about this question? Are judo and kendo martial arts? Aren't all three really martial sports? By using the term "martial art", maybe first, we need to qualify it's definition? To me, a "martial art" is a time-honored, organized system of traditional fighting techniques. Primarily, a true martial art must teach winning methods of combat (with and without weapons). What makes it an "art" is, to myself, is it's ability to create an atmosphere of inspiration, allowing for personal growth and providing a defined path to follow.
Martial sports have sprouted from martial arts, just as martial arts sprouted from actual warfare methodologies. So, perhaps we could say that; #1. Authentic combat technologies have been passed-down and branched-out over the centuries to influence a multitude of martial lineages. #2. These lineages have adapted to each era they exist in , which may provide for adaptions and modifications. Thus, war-time combat begets martial technologies, which begets martial arts, which begets martial sports. By this definition, sumo, kendo and judo are, most definitely, martial arts. Sumo, as a matter of undeniable fact, is the oldest and most traditional of them all. That's my 2 cents worth. :smilejapa And Yours?

Be well and practice often, Jon Palombi

Kyro Lantsberger
31st March 2008, 23:19
I want to drop a post on this to keep it at the top until I can say more.

I like sumo. I think it is the most "realistic" stand up grappling in some cases......will explain more later.

I think the slapping/pushing, and ability to push the throat neck changes standing grappling from the standard tie ups of freestyle/greco/subgrappling.

I would definitely say it is a martial art.

Lance Gatling
31st March 2008, 23:43
.... including sumo, according to the Japanese government. Specifically, Japan's Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology, which is in charge of such things.

I figure their opinion is good enough.

And I'm sure sumo is considered a modern martial art, that is, promulgated post 1877, but offhand I never remember if there are 8 or 9.

So, who are we to question such expertise? :laugh:

Anders Pettersson
1st April 2008, 06:40
.... including sumo, according to the Japanese government. Specifically, Japan's Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology, which is in charge of such things.

I figure their opinion is good enough.

And I'm sure sumo is considered a modern martial art, that is, promulgated post 1877, but offhand I never remember if there are 8 or 9.

So, who are we to question such expertise? :laugh:

Can't really say I have any expertise in this matter, but the Nippon Budo Kyogikai have nine gendai budo as its members together with the Nippon Budokan, as can be seen on this page (http://www.nipponbudokan.or.jp/shinkoujigyou/kankeidantai_01.html).

And Sumo is definately a Budo.

/Anders

Lance Gatling
1st April 2008, 12:56
Can't really say I have any expertise in this matter, but the Nippon Budo Kyogikai have nine gendai budo as its members together with the Nippon Budokan, as can be seen on this page (http://www.nipponbudokan.or.jp/shinkoujigyou/kankeidantai_01.html).

And Sumo is definately a Budo.

/Anders

Every NPO in Japan has a govt sponsor.

That of the Budokan and the Nippon Budo Kyogikai is Japan's Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology, which is in charge of such things.

Their definitions agree, no surprise there.

MikeWilliams
1st April 2008, 13:19
Interesting thread! My own opinions, I think, match Kyro's.

Howerver, I can see why the general public would perceive sumo as not being a martial art - as sumo has no explicit purpose away from the dohyo, its martial origins/application have become hidden. The same is true of sports like archery, javelin, fencing and even to a certain extent, western boxing and greco/freestyle.

I still remember the surprise at the early success of pure wrestlers in MMA. Many people assumed wrestling had no purpose away from its own arena.

jonpalombi
1st April 2008, 20:46
Hey Folks,
Yes, officially speaking, sumo is of authentic Budo status. Yes, The Nippon Budo Kyogikai are the definitive authorities. However, for this thread, I am interested in what you guys think. You know, as fellow martial artists, on this subject. Both students and teachers alike. How should we define the parameters of what is martial combat, martial art, martial sport, etc??? Are all of the tributaries flowing out of the same traditional source the same as that source? Or is there a line being crossed that makes the tributary something else, altogether. You can certainly say that this is true in the case of Chinese wushu. It has removed itself so far from anything martial that you have to say that it has become a performance/sport, only loosely based on martial arts. The same can be said about some of the "tai chi" being practiced these days. Certainly not the lineage I study but some of the New Age stuff. It just is so far removed from actual fighting that I'm not sure what to call it. (Actually, I am sure what to call it but my Mother taught me better.) I mean no slander to any taiji quan schools or wushu, as I study wushu broadsword on Fridays just for fun...and it certainly is fun and not so easy to perform (not at my age, at least). :nw:

Thanks for all of the fine replies! Anyone else?

Later, Jon Palombi :smilejapa

Lance Gatling
2nd April 2008, 00:57
Hey Folks,
Yes, officially speaking, sumo is of authentic Budo status. Yes, The Nippon Budo Kyogikai are the definitive authorities. However, for this thread, I am interested in what you guys think. You know, as fellow martial artists, on this subject. Both students and teachers alike. How should we define the parameters of what is martial combat, martial art, martial sport, etc??? Are all of the tributaries flowing out of the same traditional source the same as that source? Or is there a line being crossed that makes the tributary something else, altogether. .....

Later, Jon Palombi :smilejapa

The sumo entry rituals consist of contrived bushido-like rites of passage, painful progress, intense scrutiny and correction of minutiae that have no bearing on effectiveness, an intrusive teacher-student relationship, restrictions that limit its flexibility and utility in a modern world, hmmm, looks like some styles I've practiced. When the full panoply of sumo techniques is presented as budo it is much easier to appreciate as such, but perhaps more difficult in the limited scope of the public shiai that most see.

My considered opinion is that, being Japanese martial arts as defined by a complex Japanese environment and culture, thus inscrutable :D, my opinion simply does not matter. And in particular my voicing it to the contrary is simply neither productive nor welcome. We do not define it.

Cheers,

Ken Cox
4th April 2008, 07:19
I definitely see Sumo as a martial art.

However, I have some difficulty with the word art in the phrase martial art, just as I have some difficulty with the distinctions often made between martial sports and martial arts.

I see martial sports as an aspect of martial arts which allows practitioners of a martial art to safely test their skill and understanding within safety boundaries that will allow the practitioners to go on with life with their limbs and senses intact.

For example, without Judo tournaments, Judo would quickly become a set of closed systems organized around individual dojos.
Tournaments allow a practitioner to compare what he has learned in his dojo, interacting with the same people week after week and year after year, with different people having different bodies, personalities, cultures and learned style.
Everyone learns and grows from participating in tournaments, with relatively few injuries and tragedies given the potential lethality of Judo.

In terms of martial principles, I see many similarities between Sumo, Judo and Aikido.

The culture and rules that define Sumo allow very serious martial artists to demonstrate and test their understanding and skill, while at the same time edifying and entertaining an audience; and all of this without anyone getting killed or maimed.

Much of the rationale for the general obesity of Sumo wrestlers comes as the result of professional gamesmanship.
In the martial sport of Sumo, in which martial artists compete for professional career advancement, obesity provides a definite advantage; and, in fact, multiple advantages.

However, in the real world of violence and self-defense, the techniques and principles of Sumo would serve a person of normal stature very well.
In a true self-defense situation, the ability to remain on one's feet, while unbalancing one's attacker, has great value.

My older son has a black belt in Judo (12 years) and has studied three or four years in a Brazilian Ju Jitsu - Pankration school geared towards producing fighters for professional MMA contests.
My son's talent in Judo centers around ground techniques, and so he likes martial activities which quickly go to ground because it makes him look and feel good.
However, he remarks to me that ground techniques have little self-defense value in the real world because of one's exposure on the ground to multiple attackers; and, given that, he wants to revisit Judo after his college years with the intent of developing his unbalancing skills for self-defense.

All the above said, I think my son would profit greatly from a study of Sumo.
However, one cannot easily study Sumo outside the context of professional gamesmanship, since Sumo has become a professional career for those atheletes so inclined.
This direction Sumo has taken in modern times does not diminish its validity as a martial art.

Many years ago I had an early morning encounter in a New Orleans bar with the center linebacker of the NFL football team that had won the Superbowl that year.
No one got hurt and we parted smiling, and me especially smiling because I still had all my major body parts.
However, I remember from that encounter how effortlessly this center linebacker moved my entire body; and not with strength or size, but with a deeper understanding of movement and balance than I had then or now.
What he did looked like Sumo to me.

I wonder if professional football teams give any consideration to Sumo, either sending coaches to study Sumo or recruiting Sumo players to coach football players.
It seems like a match to me.

I also think Western Boxers could learn a lot from Sumo.

And then, please consider Greco-Roman wrestling, in which the two contestants attempt to unbalance each other as in Sumo.
I think this comes from battlefield tactics in which one could not afford to lose his feet in the midst of combat, but rather, could profit from his opponent losing his feet.

I have more to say on this subject, but perhaps I have already said too much in one post.
I would like to hear from my fellow forumites.

Your friend in Bend, Oregon,

Ken Cox

MikeWilliams
4th April 2008, 08:32
Nice first post, Ken. :)

Welcome to e-budo.

Josh Reyer
4th April 2008, 08:48
I think it's very simple. I don't see how anyone who accepts judo as a martial art can deny that sumo is one. Sumo is essentially judo with a slightly emphasis (from judogi to mawashi), no mats, and full strength, non-gloved atemi.

To my knowledge, there has never been a death on the dohyo in the 100+ years of modern sumo. Nonetheless, for his entire active career, Yokozuna Wakanohana III kept a secret will, in the event that he was killed in the ring. Kitanozakura, a currently active rikishi, likewise apologizes to his family before every tournament, as he goes up on the dohyo prepared for the possibility that he could die. That shows how seriously the wrestlers take what they are doing, and also provides a clue to how dangerous it feels to them.

Kimura Shonosuke and Shikimori Iinosuke, the two top gyoji (referees), wear a dagger in their obi. The dagger symbolizes their willingness to commit seppuku if they make a wrong call. In actuality, of course, they are not expected to commit seppuku, but whenever one of the two top gyoji have one of their decisions reversed, they submit a retirement application. (This is almost always rejected by the Sumo Association, unless the gyoji has truly lost his ability to get the call right 99% of the time.)

These are things that are not a part of the pomp and circumstance of sumo -- they happen away from the public eye. But they represent the dedication and commitment of those involved in sumo.

I practice a classical Japanese sword art, which is of no practical use outside the dojo. And yet I would say (and I think most would agree) that I'm practicing a martial art. The rikishi of professional sumo (and their oyakata, who continue to train) practice their art with no less dedication and seriousness. It is combat effective, and they put themselves to the test for 15 days six times a year showing that. Frankly, I'm surprised the question has even been raised. Particularly by you, Mr. Palombi, as I know you enjoy watching sumo every basho.

MikeWilliams
4th April 2008, 12:24
I think it's very simple. I don't see how anyone who accepts judo as a martial art can deny that sumo is one.

Good post. Unfortunately there are plenty of folk, including plenty of supposed martial artists, who don't see judo as a MA or who assume, because it is "sport", that it has no combative application. :rolleyes:

You just have to witness all the internet posts about judo being "jujutsu with all the dangerous bits taken out" to realise this. So sumo, being even further removed from "da streets" is very unlikely to be seen as a martial art by the general public, regardless of what we here think.

Lance Gatling
4th April 2008, 13:44
Good post. Unfortunately there are plenty of folk, including plenty of supposed martial artists, who don't see judo as a MA or who assume, because it is "sport", that it has no combative application. :rolleyes:

You just have to witness all the internet posts about judo being "jujutsu with all the dangerous bits taken out" to realise this. So sumo, being even further removed from "da streets" is very unlikely to be seen as a martial art by the general public, regardless of what we here think.

The utility of a martial art in 'da street' has zero to do with whether it is in fact a martial art.

To wit: kyudo. Archery in traditional Japanese clothes, 2 arrows, very long setup for a shot on a range, using a very longlonglong bow that is clearly not of utility or mobility in anything like a combat or ad hoc situation.

Would anyone deny that it is a martial art?

Anyhow, do you practice your art for the general public? :nono:

Cheers,

PS.... there are instructors in the Kodokan that would look at you askance if you said judo is a budo, but they'd be wrong, too. :D

MikeWilliams
4th April 2008, 17:40
The utility of a martial art in 'da street' has zero to do with whether it is in fact a martial art.

Of course. I was just pointing out that I could understand why the great unwashed might not consider Sumo a martial art.

What about the olympic disciplines of javelin, fencing, discus, archery, biathlon... are they martial arts?

The (lack of) definition of the term "martial art" is very ambiguous. I would wager that to 90% of the world's population it means "asian unarmed fighting system geared to self-defence"

I've never liked the term anyway - not that it affects me, I only do "combat sports". :D

jonpalombi
4th April 2008, 19:13
I practice a classical Japanese sword art, which is of no practical use outside the dojo. And yet I would say (and I think most would agree) that I'm practicing a martial art. The rikishi of professional sumo (and their oyakata, who continue to train) practice their art with no less dedication and seriousness. It is combat effective, and they put themselves to the test for 15 days six times a year showing that. Frankly, I'm surprised the question has even been raised. Particularly by you, Mr. Palombi, as I know you enjoy watching sumo every basho.

Well Josh,
#1.I have never personally doubted that sumo is a martial art. #2. Friends, family & fellow students have presented this challenge to me for over 26 years. I recall my judo sensei's excitement that an American, Takamiyama/Jesse Kahaulua, had become the first non-Japanese winner of a yusho in 1972. I still recall seeing a picture of Richard M. Nixon wholeheartedly congratulating him in a book on sumo, in my junior high-school library. Wide World of Sports even showed coverage of Jesse's final matches on American TV. Sad-but-true, the USA is only interested in sports that Americans excel in. Just try to find descent coverage of fencing, during the Olympic Games televised coverage. Sorry, I digress...

So, since TV Japan became available in the back-woods of Vermont in 1995 (via satellite TV), I haven't missed a match unless we were having a white-out and the signal was blocked. Oh yes, and there was the earthquake in Kobe, as well. So, my conviction that sumo is a true martial art has only deepened, vastly.

Even so, I have been the brunt of this challenge for some time now by fellow "martial artist". One of the most ridiculous examples of this obtuse short-sightedness came as this statement from a kendoka who studied in Japan for 3-4 years. He barked, "Sumo isn't a martial art because it is useless if you aren't at least 300 pounds. It has no practical application if you are normal in size." I told him to research the career of Mianoumi before he made such ignorant statements. It surprised me that someone who spent a lot of time practicing taji quan push-hands, would be so blind! What I really wanted to do was serve him my imitation of Terao's tsuppari. :smash: I respect his ability in swordsmanship, so I let him flounder in ignorance. You have to pick your battles, when an-other's mind is like a locked door...

Thank you All, for your fine replies! Please forgive my verbosity.

Be well and practice often, Jon Palombi :smilejapa

Ken Cox
4th April 2008, 20:05
This conversation has turned in an interesting direction.

I would like to address two points in the conversation.

First:


I practice a classical Japanese sword art, which is of no practical use outside the dojo. And yet I would say (and I think most would agree) that I'm practicing a martial art.

The classical Japanese sword arts may not have an obvious practical use in self-defense, given today's social environment in which citizens do not carry swords.

However, in practicing a classical Japanese sword art, one develops a deep and intimate understanding of relationship, distance, maneuvering and intent (and other understandings as well); and all of which have very practical use outside the dojo, not only in terms of self-defense, but in terms of everyday interaction with other people.

So, in my mind, Josh Reyer not only practices a martial art, he follows a discipline that has real and practical applications to self-defense (stopping the spear) and to all of life's mundane interactions.

=====

A slight digression:


To wit: kyudo. Archery in traditional Japanese clothes, 2 arrows, very long setup for a shot on a range, using a very longlonglong bow that is clearly not of utility or mobility in anything like a combat or ad hoc situation.

This has me thinking of the Camp Perry military High Power Rifle matches, in which competitors shoot major caliber rifles at stationary bullseye targets, at known ranges, using firearms which have no practical use outside of formal matches.
These competitions involve complex rituals which make sense to us now, but which, in 500 years, may seem irrelevant to those practiciing future equivalents to the Camp Perry matches.
For example, the Range Master, who controls these competitions, has a specific and precise littany of announcements and commands he uses, some of which have already lost their meaning.
It remains that if one shoots well at a Camp Perry meet, known ranges and rituals and all, he will represent a lethal force on the battlefield: the most reknowned of the modern real-world combat shooters have competed in and excelled at formal shooting matches.

=====

Secondly:


You just have to witness all the internet posts about judo being "jujutsu with all the dangerous bits taken out" to realise this.

My son studied Judo for 12 years under Denis Point of Paris, France.

Sometime around my son's 13th or 14th birthday, Denis asked if he could take my son into the local BJJ/Pankration dojo to which I referred earlier.

Denis wanted to expose my son to aggression, "dirty-fighting," aggressive personalities, and to all aspects of the guard (both offensive and defensive).

Denis told me he would not allow my son to go into this dojo unaccompanied by Denis.

So, for about four years, three nights a week, after an hour and a half of Judo, my son and Denis would go to the BJJ/Pankration dojo for another 2 hours of study.

Of note, Denis, a man of small stature in his late forties, completely and effortlessly dominated his training partners in the BJJ/Pankration dojo.
Further, one could see the crowd "part" when Denis would walk about in the dojo.
They clearly feared and respected Denis.

After several years, my son wanted to test his Judo in the fiery pit of MMA Pankration, and he asked permission to fight in one of these events.
Denis gave his permission.

The BJJ/Pankration instructor and fight promoter said he did not have anyone in the geographic area who could give my son a good fight.
Therefore, the fight promoter invited and paid a Marcello Alonzo BJJ instructor to fly in from out of state to fight my son.

To put this in context, the fight had an audience of perhaps 5,000 people, a nine man video crew, MC in tuxedo, smoke machines and strobes, and gorgeous ring girls.

Both my son and the Marcello Alonzo BJJ instructor fought in Gi's.
Other than tranistioning in and out of the guard, the fight appeared very technical and very Judo; and, with the exception of the use of the guard by both fighters, it appeared indistinguishable from the Judo ground sparring of my experience.
In the end, my son improvised a neck crank and prevailed by submission.

In the next year or so, I will move my youngest son, now 14 years-old, into Ju Jitsu.
I have some concerns about the relative lack of safety in the Ju Jitsu dojo, relative to the Judo dojo, but my younger son has more talent than my older son, and, my older son will accompany his younger brother for the first few visits.

To sum up, I see both Judo and Ju Jitsu as relevant and practical on the street for self-defense (and for MMA fighting); and, however, I see the Ju Jitsu training environment as less safe, and, on a dojo by dojo basis, having a less consistent moral content.
They each have both a martial sports and a martial arts aspect.
Both have developed their own respective rituals, as one can see at either a Judo tournament or at a MMA Pankration or UFC fight.

All of the above extends by analogy to the more formal, seemingly archaic and esoteric martial disciplines, such as archery and the sword, as well as the various internal disciplines.

Your friend in Bend,

Ken Cox

Lance Gatling
5th April 2008, 00:25
Of course. I was just pointing out that I could understand why the great unwashed might not consider Sumo a martial art.

What about the olympic disciplines of javelin, fencing, discus, archery, biathlon... are they martial arts?

The (lack of) definition of the term "martial art" is very ambiguous. I would wager that to 90% of the world's population it means "asian unarmed fighting system geared to self-defence"

I've never liked the term anyway - not that it affects me, I only do "combat sports". :D

Sorry, I didn't realize you really didn't know. But this is so seldom taught in the US perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.

The great unwashed are not the target of budo. I am. Perhaps you are.

The 'do' in judo / aikido / etc. is written 道 ’michi' and literally means 'path, road, way'.

The explicit thought is that these arts explicitly mean 柔道 ’way of flexbility', 剣道 'way of the sword', etc., and 柔道 is pronounced juudou (long u, long o).

These arts were intentionally designed to be entire guidelines and literally 'schools of thought' that embody entire philosophies of life. The study of judo was not meant to be a brief study of wrestling techniques while young but rather as a way of life; my primary judo instructor is in his late 70's and still practices, apologizes for his failing body but not his indomitable spirit and incredible skills. His instructor went to the Kodokan almost daily until he was in his mid-80's, and was still teaching the last day he went.

Kano shinhan, the founder of judo, taught that judo must be taught through lecture, example, study, reading, etc., and wrote volumes of books' worth of letters and speeches on morality, child education, health and exercise, you name. In Japan serious judoka participate in lectures, write research papers, are expected to study kata seriously, and be balanced in their approach to judo and life.

I suggest you read Mind Over Muscle: Writings from the Founder of Judo by Jigoro Kano, Yukimitsu Kano, and Naoki Murata, the edited writings of Kano shihan on certain key issues. Murata Naoki sensei is the curator of the Kodokan Museum and their library, a judo 7th dan, and a very nice guy. He's captured the core thoughts of Kano shihan in a slim volume.

For some writings on the 'way of the sword' I suggest 'Budo Mind and Body: Training Secrets of the Japanese Martial Arts' or 'Arts Of Strength, Arts Of Serenity: Martial Arts Training For Mental, Physical, And Spiritual Health', both by Nicklaus Suino, who studied for years in Japan.

The thoughts behind other Japanese budo, with the notable exception of 小林寺拳法 Shorinji Kempo, do not have as well developed full philosophies available in English, but they are there in Japanese to varying degrees.

There is simply no counterpart in the Olympics sports you cite - javelin, fencing, discus, archery, biathlon... are they martial arts? No. If you are an Olympic fencer, your coach has morals (or not...) but the fencing training and execution are not core to those morals or teachings. AFAIK there is no philosophy in pistol shooting, and I did tons of it. There are pistol shooters that have philosophies, but it is incidental or unrelated to shooting.

I think you'll find that most dojo in the West, perhaps particularly in France and the US, simply don't teach the full range of the art; it is also pretty rare even in Japan.

Regards,

Ken Cox
5th April 2008, 02:27
I read an article recently, I don't remember where, that interpreted the symbol for the syllable BU in the word phrase BUDO as "stop the spear."

This puts me in mind of the teachings of the Marine Corps in the early 1960's, in which the Corps instructed us to think of our mission not as killing or maiming our adversary, but as removing our adversary's will to fight.

Our teachers told us that thinking in terms of removing our adversary's will to fight expanded our options to include such things as bribery, negotiation, reconciliation, subtrefuge, misrepresentation, extortion, alliance, denial of access/resources, redirection, avoidance, isolation, etc.; as well as killing or maiming our adversary.

One can "stop the spear" in many ways.

Your friend in Bend,

Ken Cox

Lance Gatling
5th April 2008, 08:30
Here are some thoughts from Kano shihan in a 1936 letter to Gunji Koizumi, the head of the Budokwai in London, on including judo in the 1940 Tokyo Olympics (eventually canceled by the govt).

"I have been asked by people of various sections as to the wisdom and the possibility of Judo being introduced at the Olympic Games. My view on the matter, at present, is rather passive. If it be the desire of other member countries, I have no objection. But I do not feel inclined to take any initiative. For one thing, Judo in reality is not a mere sport or game. I regard it as a principle of life, art and science. In fact, it is a means for personal cultural attainment. Only one of the forms of Judo training, the so-called randori can be classed as a form of sport... Olympic Games are so strongly flavoured with nationalism that it is possible to be influenced by it and to develop Contest Judo as a retrograde form as Jujitsu was before the Kodokan was founded. Judo should be as free as art and science from external influences -- political, national, racial, financial or any other organised interest. And all things connected with it should be directed to its ultimate object, the benefit of humanity."

Kano, Jigoro. "Olympic Games and Japan," Dai Nippon, 1936, p. 199.

Now, say that with a straight face 3 times about some track and field event, and ask yourself, which one is [I]budo?

In fact, I've been told several times by senior kendoka that they're not interested in having kendo become an Olympic event because they see the ultimate affects and Japanese loss of control (because once it becomes an Olympic sport, Japan has only one vote out of a couple of hundred) on judo as detrimental and undesirable.

As do many judoka.

MikeWilliams
5th April 2008, 10:41
This is taking an interesting turn...

The original question was "is sumo a martial-art", not "is sumo a budo". That Sumo is budo is not in question, I think.

There are a huge number of martial arts out there that are not budo (incl. by definition all non-Japanese MA). Likewise there are budo that (no longer) have martial applicability, e.g. Kyudo and, for argument's sake, Sumo. So if a pursuit only has to have martial origins to be classed as a martial art, rather than martial applicability, where does that leave the examples I cited? Many, many modern sports have their origins in martial skills or combatives. Can they still be classed as a martial art if they are now solely practised for sporting purposes?

I'm playing devil's advocate here, but it's an interesting question. I believe sumo to be a martial art, just as I believe western boxing and greco-roman wrestling to be martial arts - because, as a martial artist I can see the combative utility shining through. If I asked the question to my mum, she would give a different answer. :)

EDIT to say: I'm really only keeping this going because it would be boring if we all just said "of course sumo is a martial art". Jon and others have tried to steer it in a technical direction, and I'd welcome more of that. My own knowledge of sumo technique is purely as an occasional spectator, and limited to drawing parallels with what I know from judo & wrestling.

PS (to Ken): By Ju-Jitsu do you mean BJJ/MMA? Because I'm surprised at you finding the training to be more dangerous than Judo - I have found the opposite. Congrats to your son on the win - it takes a lot of guts and determination to fight pro- or semi-pro MMA.

Ken Cox
5th April 2008, 11:39
Many, many modern sports have their origins in martial skills or combatives. Can they still be classed as a martial art if they are now solely practised for sporting purposes?

Would Mike expand on this a little?
Does he mean sports like High School, Collegiate and Olympic wrestling?
If so, I see wrestling as a sublimation of a combative discipline, but a combative discipline nonetheless.
I have seen more than one High School or Collegiate wrestler come to the Judo dojo and pick it up like he had done it for years.
The wrestlers do as well in the one BJJ dojo I have attended with my son.

Speaking of BJJ:


By Ju-Jitsu do you mean BJJ/MMA? Because I'm surprised at you finding the training to be more dangerous than Judo - I have found the opposite.

We have two Ju Jitsu schools in Bend: one a traditional Japanese school and the other a BJJ school that prepares fighters for MMA competition under Pankration rules.

I have not attended the traditional Japanese school, by understand it by reputation as having a safe culture.

What do I mean by safe culture?

Well, let me try a contrast.

The BJJ dojo, in THIS community, attracts a rough clientele and the teacher does little to smooth them out.
The police have visited this dojo at least once and put teacher and students publicly on notice as a source of too many violent events in our community.

My son's Judo teacher took my son into this dojo, I think, as a life lesson in contrasts.
My son experienced a lot of dirty, nasty sparring in this dojo.
As I said earlier, my son's Judo teacher accompanied my son, I think, to protect him.

I intend to introduce my younger son to both Ju Jitsu schools.
My older son has advised me not to let my younger son attend the BJJ school without my older son accompanying him, at least at first.
I would not let my younger son attend this dojo at all, except my younger son simply has a talent for scrapping and he sees a bloody nose and a split lip as fun.
I can handle a bloody nose or a split lip, but not a broken elbow or wrist.
We'll see how it goes and probably end up in the traditional Japanese school.
Still, a little controlled exposure to the underbelly of the martial arts has its merits.

Please do not interpret the above as a comment about BJJ in general, but, rather, an observation regarding a specific school in my community.

But returning to Sumo, I see combatives as combatives, whether in the athletic arena or on the battlefield.
I would not want to get in a life and death fight with either a Sumo or Collegiate wrestler, however sports-oriented their combatives.

Your friend in Bend,

Ken Cox

jonpalombi
8th April 2008, 01:40
In fact, I've been told several times by senior kendoka that they're not interested in having kendo become an Olympic event because they see the ultimate affects and Japanese loss of control (because once it becomes an Olympic sport, Japan has only one vote out of a couple of hundred) on judo as detrimental and undesirable.

As do many judoka.

While Chinese wushu is chasing the dream of Olympic status, I hope Japanese kendo/Korean kumdo see the error in this pursuit. Traditional martial arts most definitely do not need to be steered/molded/changed/distorted by the Olympic committee's priorities. :nono: I read somewhere that amateur sumo was being considered as an Olympic event. Is this really true? Some things are like oil & vinegar. Sumo & the Olympics are even more incompatible. Aside from the obvious problems this could raise, how are a panel of politically-motivated, rules & regulation stiffs going to encapsulate something as deeply ritualistic as sumo into the Olympic format? What has taken over 1000 years in-the-making must never be watered-down or simplified, to satisfy potential commercial advertisement agendas. Kendo & sumo are doing just fine without the Olympics. :moon:

Good evening All, Jon Palombi :smilejapa

Josh Reyer
8th April 2008, 06:29
It should be noted that international amateur sumo has been going on for quite some time, and is not quite as deeply ritualistic as Ozumo. And really, it's hard to further simplify the very simple rules of sumo. I imagine they'd have to codify the shinitai/ikitai rule, though (if ama-zumo hasn't already). I'm not really interested in amateur sumo, except in as much as the college athletes later join Ozumo, so amateur sumo becoming an Olympic sport doesn't bother me one way or the other. It makes no difference to Ozumo, which has been professional since the late Edo Period. It might even improve the Japanese talent pool by encouraging an interest in sumo at the high school and college levels.