Yubetsu, Hokkaido

[Mike Haftel]

I'm currently living in Oumu-cho, Hokkaido. I was wondering if any of you had any information on this:

I've been searching for a place to study Daito-ryu while here, in Japan. I've asked around and nobody seems to know of any dojo in the area besides Judo and Kendo.

However, during a nomikai, one of my fellow workers got a little plastered and we started talking. He said that he heard there was currently a Daito-ryu instructor living in Yubetsu, which is about an hour down the coast.

I did a quick and dirty internet search and found out that that area was a hot spot for Daito-ryu and a few of the more known names in martial arts like Takeda and a number of his family, Yukiyoshi Sagawa, Kotaro Yoshida, and a number of others.

In Engaru, there is the Hisada Inn, where many demonstrations were held. I don't know if this inn still exists, but I plan on taking a trip to the town to do a little searching.

Back then, the area was called Shirataki. But now it merged with and became part of Engaru. Aanother town, Kami-Yubetsu, is close by. Here is the town's homepage...the area is quite beautiful! http://kanko.pref.hokkaido.jp/flower/english/spot/07_kamiyubetsu/01.html

Anyway, I read through all of the official Daito-ryu webpages in both English and Japanese. However, I don't see any information about Daito-ryu, neither past nor present, in that area of Hokkaido.

I was wondering if anybody had any historical information about this area with regards to Daito-ryu and/or any other martial arts and peoples?

I'll try and take a trip out to these towns with my Japanese friend who can do some translating.

I was also told that Engaru has a lot of history in the various arts as well. It's a shame! I've been here for 8 months and I'm just now finding out about these places and their history.

[Richard Elias]

Greetings Mike,

I’d suggest getting yourself a copy of Aikido New’s
“Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu: Conversations with Daito-ryu Masters”

http://www.aikidojournal.com/catalog/productdetails?code=dtr

Just to get you started, here’s an excerpt relative to Daito ryu history in and around Yubetsu from something I wrote about Yoshida Kotaro a while back. Much of it is based on what is in the book. It was in reply to a photo that Stan Pranin posted on AJ of Yoshida and Morihei Ueshiba on the village counsel of Kitami.

“Yoshida Kotaro (1883-1966) began training with Takeda Sokaku around 1914 -15 in Hokkaido and was the man that introduced Ueshiba Morihei to Takeda at the Hisada Inn in Engaru in 1915. Like Ueshiba he had earned the level of kyoju dairi in Daito ryu. They apparently met at a store owned by Sagawa Nenokichi (father of Yukiyoshi, both Daito ryu kyoju dairi) in Yubetsu that they both frequented. There was also an inn in Yubetsu owned by Horikawa Taiso, where Yoshida became acquaintances (and good friends) with Horikawa’s son Kodo. (Kodo had begun training in Shibukawa ryu with his father very young and daito ryu with Takeda in 1913. He later earned menkyo kaiden in Daito ryu and his father had been kyoju dairi). Horikawa Taiso also had a dojo in Yubetsu and would host seminars by Takeda. With the assistance of Horikawa, Takeda eventually moved to Yubestu with his family and stayed there for about three years, and is where Takeda Tokimune was born in 1916.”

Good luck in your search,

[Mike Haftel]

Thanks, Richard!

Unfortunately, the Hisada Inn no longer exists. It's a shame, I'm a photographer and it would have made for an interesting historical photo. There is a monument dedicated to Aikido/Ueshiba, in Engaru, though.

I'm going to head out and explore Engaru and Yubetsu when the weather gets a little warmer.

I'll check out that publication as well.

- Mike

[judasith]

There is only one Daito-ryu dojo in Yubetsu, it is directed by Oshima Shihan, former student of Takeda Tokimune and then of Kato Sensei. He does mainly children, but also has a small group of adults.
He speaks very little english, try and go visit him, he's a nice person.

OR you can go and practice Kendo, like I am now!

Best regards,

Giacomo Merello

[Nathan Scott]

Kendo?!? What happened? :D

[Kendoguy9]

Wow Giacomo,

Did you give up Daito-ryu?!? I mean I would if I were you... but that's just me :). Kendo is good stuff. Are you still doing Takeda-ha Itto-ryu, too?

Best regards,

[judasith]

Yep I'm practicing Kendo since last may, this summer I went to Japan, I stayed in Tokyo for two months straight, I just went to visit Kato Sensei in Hokkaido for the local demonstration of Daito-ryu over a weekend.

Since then I've been practicing Kendo about 5 times a week, and I'm also doing some Iaido.

I quit the practice of Daito-ryu completely, for many different reasons, not a single one of which is related to Kato Sensei and the other Shihans of the Japanese Daitokai.

Part is my own personal evolution in Budo. This is a kind of deeper reason I'm willing to share if you really want to know it. Let's say I kind of changed my mind on the value of Do and on the value of Jutsu, especially in present times.

Part is the fact that Daito-ryu has no future as an organization, it is too fragmented, too small and with too little certainty for me to invest in at my age.
I'm still very young at 27 and at my age I can reach and invest in other forms of Budo which give me the hope that in 20 years from now they will still be there.

This links also to the curriculum problem... I don't think ANY of the current branches know all the original curriculum, even if several claim they do. Is there any point in investing time and energy in this?

Then again, after practicing even as little as I did, Kendo and Iaido, I don't think ANY of the Daito-ryu teachers I've seen of any branch/hombu/whatever and either live or on tape, well I don't think they really know how to use a bokken or a iaito.

Honestly, I'm getting more and more let down about koryus, I mean MOST of them... in too many cases the teachers are not good from the start, even in Japan, and even if they dress like samurai.
With Kendo, I'm certain as hell that an Hachidan Hanshi is a Kendo God, and, after all, you know, he can REALLY prove it. It's easy, you just put your "men" on.

Best regards to everyone,

Giacomo

[Ron Tisdale]

Best wishes to you, Giacomo, as you continue the search. Hope you are well, and that you find what you are looking for! Kendo sounds like loads of fun...maybe one day I'll get to put a Men on... :D

Best,
Ron

[Nathan Scott]

Then again, after practicing even as little as I did, Kendo and Iaido, I don't think ANY of the Daito-ryu teachers I've seen of any branch/hombu/whatever and either live or on tape, well I don't think they really know how to use a bokken or a iaito.

Well, I have a hard time arguing with that. At least from what I've seen on videos...

Good luck to ya. I guess this means we can't argue about politics anymore, eh? I don't see Daito-ryu as an entire art being any worse off than most other koryu as far as staying power though. Some branches are holding together better than others, and finding the right teacher in any art is the most important thing.

When you get to where you've learned enough about swordsmanship to feel comfortable arguing about what "real swordsmanship" is, be sure to look me up! Ha ha haa...

Regards,

[Kendoguy9]

Giacomo,

I admit I am a little curious why you quit, but feel free to email me or PM me if you'd rather do it that way.

If you're in Tokyo I would look up Sasamori sensei of the Ono-ha Itto-ryu (he has a study group dojo in Italy I think too). I hear he speaks fluent English, and his stuff might be more to your liking. Also if you can find some Jikishinkage-ryu you might not be disappointed either. I think Yoshida sensei the current headmaster of the ryu is in or near Tokyo. Not all koryu is lame, there are still some very talented koryu teachers out there. Some are also very high ranked kendoka too.

Best regards,

[judasith]

Dear Chris,

Thank for the suggestion, and I am in Tokyo right now, but:

1) Sasamori sensei is kind of.... different. He is a catholic priest and he mixes christian religion with shinto with mystical powers with kenjutsu. Sometimes he does very wierd things, like searching for PHYSICAL sparkles of ki energy going through your fingers. Maybe it's just that I don't understand this, but this is not for me, at all.

2) Frankly, I'm kind of fed off koryus at the moment. I think that there IS a reason why these arts all but died out nowadays. I think most of them (regardless if they're armed or unarmed) practice and teach empty forms, without soul or substance.
Plus, the good thing about Kendo is... you can put the men on. It's not anymore "if he attacks like this, you do that", now it's a matter of either you CAN do it, or you don't. If you present yourself as 10th dan in any koryu (let's not even enter in the fact that still 99% of the ones taught in the west are false or videotape-learnt, on top of all) I more or less take your word for it... in Kendo when you put on the men, the dan ranking means nothing, the way you can speak !@$# means nothing, it's either you are or you are NOT. Full stop.

3) I also think now that you can really train and understand koryu kenjutsu kata, only if you had a real experience in Kendo. The only very good Senseis I met that practice Koryu in a live, efficient, incredible way are also nanadan or hachidan kendoka (and often also iaidoka!).
It's like in Iaido, you practice the Seitei Iai before starting koryu, it has no sense to start with the koryu only, today...
That said, the Kenjutsu style that I recently saw that really gave me the creeps at how tense, realistic, efficient and substance-filled is Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, which in Italy is taught by Hirano Sensei. After many years in koryus that was one of the few really alive techniques I ever saw...

Still, I think everyone interested in sword arts should at least begin with kendo and iaido, and then see...

Best regards to all!

[Nathan Scott]

Giacomo,

Interesting post, but do not use inappropriate language on these forums. I already edited the word in question out of your post for you.

Regards,

[Mike Haftel]

Giacomo,

How do you know about the Daito-ryu dojo in Yubetsu? Do you have contact info. or know where the dojo is specificly located?

That dojo's location is not on any of the lists provided to me by the various branches of Daito-ryu I have contacted.

On another note,

I know what you mean about the various issues with studying a koryu. Great teachers are few and far between. I know of a number of teachers who I would love to study with, some have even invited me to train. But, other circumstances always seem to get in the way, like location. I'm not about to up and move 2,000 miles just to study a martial art. If I had no other responsibilites, I would. But, things like work, family, education, and etc. always seem to take priority.

Those who have up and moved and spent years and years living in Japan for the sole purpose of studying an art must have nothing tieing them down and plenty of money to fall back on? Or they were lucky enough to find a place to train near where they already were.

Also, I was just down in Tokyo for Golden Week. I had a great time! Sadly, I didn't have a chance to visit any dojo. :(

[Nathan Scott]

Also, I was just down in Tokyo for Golden Week. I had a great time! Sadly, I didn't have a chance to visit any dojo.

Too bad about the dojo. I just got back from there as well, and had a chance to watch the kite festival (tako age) in Hamamatsu, Shizuoka. Golden week is a tough time to travel...

[Mike Haftel]

Too bad about the dojo. I just got back from there as well, and had a chance to watch the kite festival (tako age) in Hamamatsu, Shizuoka. Golden week is a tough time to travel...

There are all sorts of festivals and wonderful events that I would love to see while I'm in Japan. But, most of them I just don't know about and nobody bothers to tell me that they are going on!

Golden Week wasn't that bad as far as traveling goes. My plane ticket from Hokkaido was pretty cheap and Tokyo wasn't all that crowded (Sapporo was much worse during the Yuki Matsuri).

I hear about all sorts of interesting budo demonstrations and cultural events AFTER THE FACT. It's hard to find out when they are happening before hand, so I can make arrangements to attend.

One of the downsides of being in the inaka...

In July, I'm heading to Yakushima (Kyushu) to go camping/hiking. I hear it's really beautiful and basically a rainforest. Ever been there?

And, I'm also taking part in the Okhotsk Cycling Bike Race. It's about 200km and starts in my town; heading down the coast of Hokkaido. Should be fun!

[Nathan Scott]

Hi,

I haven't been to Kyushu at all yet, but am planning to go there on one of my trips. I did visit Okhotsk once though.

There are a number of Kobudo Demos now in Japan. The best thing to do is to either google them to see when they are generally held, then contact the sponsor (such as the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai or Shinkokai) and ask them for the dates for this year.

As far as training goes, it might be worthwhile researching them before deciding to join their dojo if the opportunity presents itself.

Regards,

[judasith]

Whoops, sorry for the late reply.

In Yubetsu there's Oshima Shihan teaching, he is still pretty young (let's say around 45, even though it's always hard to tell with many Japanese of both sexes), and one of the best of the association I was with before, the Daitokai. In the Daitokai only three Shihans nowadays, Certa - who lives and teaches in Milan, Italy; Oshima, in Yubetsu; Shimizugawa, in Kitami - this last is the one in the BAB videos being uke to Arisawa Shihan, who is now dead. Of the three, maybe Shimizugawa is the strongest, Oshima is the most precise and Certa is the more open.

Oshima Shihan in Yubetsu I think he does Mon-Thurs on like an earlier hour, maybe 6 to 8 or something (but this is information from 2006). The dojo I can't explain to you exactly where it is, but it's a proper Budokan where they practice a lot of martial arts. There's a big hall with hardwood, spring floor and on the right side of the hall piled green tatami to be mounted each time for the lesson.
If you know what the place is (Yubetsu is small!) just ask someone there for Oshima Shihan, or Aikibudo, Aikido lesson. Almost noone in Japan calls Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu as such, they usually say, for the listener's sake and ease, just "Aikido".

I saw for the last time Oshima Shihan last August (2007), in Abashiri for the annual enbutaikai, which I participated to, so I know he's still there in Yubetsu.

Good luck, and I hope you'll find your way, whatever that is...

Giacomo

[wagnerphysed]

Apparently, this is an infamous Italian saying, or at least my frineds from Orbetello tell me so. However, on to my main point, or several points...

Part is the fact that Daito-ryu has no future as an organization, it is too fragmented, too small and with too little certainty for me to invest in at my age.
I'm still very young at 27 and at my age I can reach and invest in other forms of Budo which give me the hope that in 20 years from now they will still be there.

This links also to the curriculum problem... I don't think ANY of the current branches know all the original curriculum, even if several claim they do. Is there any point in investing time and energy in this?

1. Daito-ryu as an organization? The concepts and structure of daito-ryu should cross organizations...interpret this as you will, but I believe this is the truth and that others would support my belief. Others?

2. The curriculum that you speak of may be incomplete or may not and regardless of variances, is completely the same at its heart. This is despite these variances across organizations...this is my opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the main line or any other organization but rather is a direct reflection of my studies under the tutelage of the main-line.

3. Is there any point in you investing time and energy? Was there ever? Was there ever a reason for you to defend your teachers so steadfastly as you did? All personal disagreements aside, I believe the answer is YES! Daito-ryu is a very unique and special treasure that has many connections to sound yet ancient arts of Japan while maintaining a special distinction from anything else that has ever come before or since.

Good luck in whatever you do from here on out, but you have clearly missed something within your studies of Daito-ryu if you can walk away so easily. To avoid our adversarial past, I encourage you to investigate more deeply what it is you are dismissing as a waste of time. No matter how things seem at the present, the art itself will survive beyond the next 20 years.

Stay in touch! I'll write you again in at least 20!

[lucky1899]

[QUOTE=wagnerphysed;464096]
1. Daito-ryu as an organization? The concepts and structure of daito-ryu should cross organizations...interpret this as you will, but I believe this is the truth and that others would support my belief. Others?

2. The curriculum that you speak of may be incomplete or may not and regardless of variances, is completely the same at its heart. This is despite these variances across organizations...this is my opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the main line or any other organization but rather is a direct reflection of my studies under the tutelage of the main-line.

3. Is there any point in you investing time and energy? Was there ever? Was there ever a reason for you to defend your teachers so steadfastly as you did? All personal disagreements aside, I believe the answer is YES! Daito-ryu is a very unique and special treasure that has many connections to sound yet ancient arts of Japan while maintaining a special distinction from anything else that has ever come before or since.
QUOTE]

Mr. Wagner,

You've hit many key points. Over the years, the systems I studied (at an introductory level), have overlap (at least at the beginning, and I would bet at intermediate) that is uncanny. Many systems discuss principles and when techniques "look" different, others will forget the principle (root) of the technique. Nevertheless, because so much of the "okuden" (high level) principles (techniques) aren't shown, we don't know exactly how alike the Daito Ryu schools are. In addition, when high level principles (techniques) are shown, they look like the tori is doing nothing at all.

I wanted to write to this quote especially because of your third point. I was talking with a training partner of mine today. He told me, "let's not waste our time with training chokes next week, they're just standard judo chokes anyway. Really it will be a waste of time."

I responded, "the last twenty years may be a waste of time, I'm not sure yet." We laughed and then became serious because sometimes it just seems that we'll never "get it". Ask a teacher and the response is standard...."the key is in practice" or "The secret is in shugyo." Teachers and sempai's telling me the same doesn't make the journey easier; until I can do it just like them, it crosses my mind that my training is a waste of time. Still, I love training more than life and of course, see improvement.

When I first read Gaicomo was leaving Daito Ryu, I thought about writing about it on the board and then decided against it. But your response has made me want to respond...

Giacomo,

From the perspective you're taking, all traditional bugei systems should be abandoned. I won't probably ever be attacked with a sword or in a "sword-manner." And while my Daito Ryu training might help me in a life-death situation, I would probably be better suited to train with my local police department in "Guardian Defensive Shooting" or with the local Krav Maga or Silat guys in knife fighting. Even then, the chances I'll die in a violent confrontation or even be in a violent confrontation is slim. I'll probably die of a heart attack once I put my third son through college and calculate that I could drive a Rolls-Royce had I not had kids.

My personal advice (and very humble opinion) is that you should train in the art you love, whatever it is, not because of the future or the past but because of the NOW.

Good luck to you.

Yours in Budo,

Andrew De Luna
Daito Ryu

[aikironin]

I hope you find an art that you truly enjoy Giacomo, sorry to see you left Daito Ryu. I do not know you nor have I cooresponded with you but I always enjoyed reading your posts!!!

[judasith]

Guys, I think you're missing my point to a certain extent... it's not like I'm "freaking out" of my art because I don't have the willpower to stick to it regardless of the results!
My reasons are multifaceted:

1) One Sensei is dead, the other is in a very bad mental health.

2) The lack of a certain and strong organization leaves the future VERY uncertain and the present dubious. No certainty in the dan awarded, no certainty in the instructor licenses, double standards, no clear succession line of any kind... and simply too few qualified teachers! Once I asked to a Korean Kendo teacher why he thought the Japanese had a better form and style overall than his own countrymen. He said, "In Korea we have about 30 Hachidan Sensei - In Japan they are over 400".

3) The curriculum of the art is, in my opinion, significantly smaller than it was supposed to be, and has been lost in the greatest part by most of the different association. I believe that in the future only the Hiden mokuroku will be practiced, and it is a shame; then again you probably have more techniques there than in other entire systems...

4) I made a PERSONAL maturation that led me to choose to abandon Daito-ryu, my rank, my position as secretary etc. etc. in favor of starting again humble in Kendo (and Iaido, a little) as a beginner. After almost ten years in Daito-ryu my martial way took me to leave it and to dedicate my life to the way of the sword, which was I really wanted to do to start with.
I'm always writing articles about Budo in Italy, and the last one I called "Shu-Ha-Ri" and described in detail this concept in parallel with my own experience. For years I was in the "Shu" mindset, I studied without question, defended (almost) without question, helped, protected without question (like some of you seem to suggest it's the only way it should always be). But I think this is actually a childish attitude in the long-run, you loose perspective and you end up not growing at all, unless you reach an "Ha" state of mind, when you begin to question everything from a more critical view, when you separate from your teacher/father/idea of love/religion etc. etc. to explore other possibilities, other ways, other techniques. The biggest part of the people, both in their lives and, in this context, in the martial way they choose, never go in the "Ha" stage, because it's hard, it's difficult, it requires actually MORE willpower than sticking with the same thing over and over repeating to oneself that's where one is strong. If you are lucky you will find your "Ri", the ultimate state, where you found what you were looking for only to understand that you got there not DESPITE of your past which you originally rejected but THANKS to that. This is what happened to me during the last year and a half, both in my personal and in my martial life. That's why today the tenugui I'm using when wearing my armor before an exam, a tournament or a simple practice, and that most people don't regard more than a simple sheet to absorb sweat, has written on it SHU-HA-RI, so that I can always remember where I came from and where I'm going...

"Don't look for what your predecessors did, look for what they were looking for"

Giacomo Merello

[Neil Yamamoto]

Giacomo,

I think that's the best thing I've ever read from you. Best wishes in your kendo training!

[Raff]

Dear Giacomo,

I must admit that I could not believe my eyes when I saw your message. You won't be surprised to know that I disagree with almost everything you wrote, but I guess that it does not matter, you have taken a decision and I wish you well for the future.

Daito-Ryu is not just a series of catalogues but much more and as far as the future is concerned, we are the future of the School and so were you. Well, I guess that we'll anyway meet in Milan so take care of you.

Stammi bene

Raffaele

[Mike Haftel]

Whoops, sorry for the late reply.

In Yubetsu there's Oshima Shihan teaching, he is still pretty young (let's say around 45, even though it's always hard to tell with many Japanese of both sexes), and one of the best of the association I was with before, the Daitokai. In the Daitokai only three Shihans nowadays, Certa - who lives and teaches in Milan, Italy; Oshima, in Yubetsu; Shimizugawa, in Kitami - this last is the one in the BAB videos being uke to Arisawa Shihan, who is now dead. Of the three, maybe Shimizugawa is the strongest, Oshima is the most precise and Certa is the more open.

Oshima Shihan in Yubetsu I think he does Mon-Thurs on like an earlier hour, maybe 6 to 8 or something (but this is information from 2006). The dojo I can't explain to you exactly where it is, but it's a proper Budokan where they practice a lot of martial arts. There's a big hall with hardwood, spring floor and on the right side of the hall piled green tatami to be mounted each time for the lesson.
If you know what the place is (Yubetsu is small!) just ask someone there for Oshima Shihan, or Aikibudo, Aikido lesson. Almost noone in Japan calls Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu as such, they usually say, for the listener's sake and ease, just "Aikido".

I saw for the last time Oshima Shihan last August (2007), in Abashiri for the annual enbutaikai, which I participated to, so I know he's still there in Yubetsu.

Good luck, and I hope you'll find your way, whatever that is...

Giacomo

Thanks for getting back to me.

At this point, it's almost too late for me to actually train on a regular basis at a dojo here because I'm leaving for the US in August. But, I would still be interested in attending a seminar or join in on a few classes. However, I'm not sure if that is frowned upon or not, in Japan...especially at a Daito-ryu dojo.

Yubetsu is fairly close, so it shouldn't be too hard to get out there. And, there's another oranization in Shirataki. All these places seem like they're within 15-20 min. of each other, too. Which is odd...

In any event, can I just show up one day and drop in? That seems a little rude, to me. But, I may not have any other choice.

Also, Engaru, Yubetsu, Kami-Yubetsu, and Shirataki all have a confusing location since their town boarders have actually shifted around a number of times in the past 5-10 years; and have even all been combined into one town and then split up again. So, when someone says "a place in such and such town," it might not be in that town anymore, at least by name.

[Josh Reyer]

At this point, it's almost too late for me to actually train on a regular basis at a dojo here because I'm leaving for the US in August. But, I would still be interested in attending a seminar or join in on a few classes. However, I'm not sure if that is frowned upon or not, in Japan...especially at a Daito-ryu dojo.


Well, if the worst that can happen is frowning, you might as well ask and see. :)

I take it you're not renewing with the JET Program? Was the Hokkaido winter too much? :eek:

[Mike Haftel]

Well, if the worst that can happen is frowning, you might as well ask and see. :)

I take it you're not renewing with the JET Program? Was the Hokkaido winter too much? :eek:

No, not at all. I really like living here and the winter was no colder than what I'm used to back in the US. In fact, it was fairly warm this year. I love winter sports and I had plenty of great times snowboarding in Nayoro and Niseko, playing Broomball, and driving on the deserted back-country roads during blizzards. I even made it out to Shikaoi and had a great time in the ice-onsen out on the frozen lake at 2am! In general, I really like living in Japan and I hope to come back again and even find a way to spend a few more years living here.

However, I am not recontracting because I don't think teaching English is what I want to do, even if it's just for the experience. I feel I've gotten all I can out of the JET Program thus far and I need to get on with my life and figure out what I'm going to be doing for the next few years, rather than stay in Japan and postpone the rest of my life. :)

I'm going to miss Japan!