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View Full Version : New Kodokan waza??



MarkF
16th January 2001, 11:01
http://www.kodokan.org/e_waza/index.html

A while back, many were wondering just what the new waza (in particular nagewaza) were according to the Kodokan. This is a very interesting page, so here is a taste.

New nage waza (1997)

Ippon seoi nage

Sode tsurikomi goshi

These were originally stipulated in the kyu gokyo no waza in 1895, but were dropped from the shin gokyo no waza in 1920:
Obi-otoshi
seoi otoshi
Yama Arashi

Here is an explanation of just one misconception of what some would call "Jumping ____ gatame" or other armlocks used as throws or takedowns:

Ude-gaeshi -> When you throw with completing any Kansetsu-waza, it is not regarded as nage-waza.
When you throw without completing any Kansetsu-waza, then it is regarded as "Yoko-wakare".

So if, for example, one is thrown while being handcuffed by an armlock, it cannot be considered nage-waza. Does this include "jumping juji-gatame"?

Lots more interesting stuff here. Some surprises, and some not so surprising. Interesting, very intersting page, with links if one doesn't like to scroll.:)

Mark

Ippon seoi nage a new nage only since 1997?? The latest edtition of Kodokan judo shows a closeup of the grip for this throw, but I know most here have been doing this throw since forever, in shiai, and I know I've been doing this since 1963 in shiai, and that lasted until 1982. There is no explanation on the throw in the book, only the photo.














[Edited by MarkF on 01-16-2001 at 05:07 AM]

Ben Reinhardt
16th January 2001, 21:02
Mark F. wrote:

Here is an explanation of just one misconception of what some would call "Jumping ____ gatame" or other armlocks used as throws or takedowns:

From Kodokan Page:
Ude-gaeshi -> When you throw with completing any Kansetsu-waza, it is not regarded as nage-waza.
When you throw without completing any Kansetsu-waza, then it is regarded as "Yoko-wakare".

Mark F. Wrote:
So if, for example, one is thrown while being handcuffed by an armlock, it cannot be considered nage-waza. Does this include "jumping juji-gatame"?

+++++++Ben Reinhardt+++++++
Jumping Juji Gatame isn't scored as a throw. I have had some long discussions with high level refs about this one, especially now that one particular American competitor is using is in shiai (and winning at times). The best opinion I got was that a "jumping" Juji Gatame is an attempt at a standing arm bar, same as if one attempted any other standing arm bar. Uke may pat out while tori is off the ground, or roll or be rolled to the ground by tori in the process.

I like to use Ude Gaeshi sometimes. It's useful against a lapel stiff arm grip.

Ben Reinhardt
+++++++++++++++++++

MarkF
17th January 2001, 12:06
Jumping Juji Gatame isn't scored as a throw. I have had some long discussions with high level refs about this one, especially now that one particular American competitor is using is in shiai (and winning at times). The best opinion I got was that a "jumping" Juji Gatame is an attempt at a standing arm bar, same as if one attempted any other standing arm bar. Uke may pat out while tori is off the ground, or roll or be rolled to the ground by tori in the process.

I like to use Ude Gaeshi sometimes. It's useful against a lapel stiff arm grip.

Ben Reinhardt


So what is it that makes jumping juji gatame such a mind game? I've seen hyperextending elbows from this, and broken bones. I could go to the IJF site, and probably find an answer, but what is it the Kodokan is saying about it then? Aside from injuries, some shimban give penalties, and in one natinal event, one was given direct hansokumake for attempting it, and applying it well.

Here, in local shiai, there is no reason for it so the officials have pretty much banned its use. Who is the competitor her who uses it, if you don't mind? Is it a matter of how it is cinched or when? That always seems to be the problem. Exactly when it is cinched and do you go to the mat with it? If it is an attempted ude gaeshi, but cinched right after hitting the mat, then what would the call be (I've got to look for some pictures of it)?

My lack of height makes most off the ground moves counterproductive here, but then I do like yoko sutemiwaza, and have some success with them, or did, anyway.

Well, it may get interesting. Basically, some have a problem with it as it is said to be "against the spirit of judo." What do you think, Ben?

Mark

I agree, it is not a nage waza, but apparently, there was some confusion with this.

Do you have any photos per chance of this elbow lock when in flight? Huh?:up:

Ben Reinhardt
17th January 2001, 18:19
Originally posted by MarkF

Jumping Juji Gatame isn't scored as a throw. I have had some long discussions with high level refs about this one, especially now that one particular American competitor is using is in shiai (and winning at times). The best opinion I got was that a "jumping" Juji Gatame is an attempt at a standing arm bar, same as if one attempted any other standing arm bar. Uke may pat out while tori is off the ground, or roll or be rolled to the ground by tori in the process.

I like to use Ude Gaeshi sometimes. It's useful against a lapel stiff arm grip.

Ben Reinhardt


So what is it that makes jumping juji gatame such a mind game? I've seen hyperextending elbows from this, and broken bones. I could go to the IJF site, and probably find an answer, but what is it the Kodokan is saying about it then? Aside from injuries, some shimban give penalties, and in one natinal event, one was given direct hansokumake for attempting it, and applying it well.

+++++++++Ben Reinhardt++++++++++
I find that any kind of standing armlock is a "mind game" as you put it. They are done very quickly, unexpectedly, and have the potential thus to injure or at least hurt badly. Many people get upset if you try one, especially in randori or at local/regional shiai. Most people never learn them, and never use them, for whatever reason. In higher level events, they are not so uncommon,though. The Russians were big into "jumping Juji" at the 1964 Olympics, so it has been around for at least that long. Brazillian JJ people use it too in their contests, too.

The IJF site does not specifically address jumping Juji, so don't bother to look. The Kodokan, as far as I know, doesn not say anything about it. They are not into writing the rules of competition anymore...the IJF does that, for better or worse. What the Kodokan says really doesn't matter in this case.

As to someone getting direct HSM for it, which year are you talking about ? I was in Houston last year where one player used it effectively, and he got no penalties for it, just ippon a couple of times. It was controversial to some people, but jumping Juji is a legal technique. It's just unusual and scary, and as you point out, some people think it's against the spirit of Judo. Why, I don't know...how is it anymore against the spirit of Judo than any other standing armbar ? You could give a penalty for it, for example, if tori simply snapped the arm without giving uke a chance to give up...but that would be a tough call to make at the level of competition you are likely to see the technique at !
++++++++++++++++++++++

Here, in local shiai, there is no reason for it so the officials have pretty much banned its use. Who is the competitor her who uses it, if you don't mind? Is it a matter of how it is cinched or when? That always seems to be the problem. Exactly when it is cinched and do you go to the mat with it? If it is an attempted ude gaeshi, but cinched right after hitting the mat, then what would the call be (I've got to look for some pictures of it)?

+++++++++Ben replies+++++++++
Local tournament directors are certainly within their rights to modify the IJF rules to ban standing armbars such as jumping Juji.

I'll try to explain the opinion I got on jumping Juji below. I've already stated that it is or can be viewed as an attempt at a standing armlock...makes sense to me, then, it can become a takedown, using an armlock, which cannot be scored as a throw.

What IS illegal according to the IJF is to do a "Waki Gatame" like armbar, and fall down onto uke's arm (usually forward). This is very dangerous, because tori's weight if falling directly on the joint...very little control and a LOT of pressure applied. So, Juji Gatame, where tori falls onto his back, is nothing like Waki Gatame (in this case). So it's not illegal interpreted in such a way. Uke's elbow is protected from the weight of tori falling onto it. However, if tori were to execute an Juji Gatame where he fell with uke's arm between his chest and floor (a face down type Juji Gatame), then that could be penalized (this is an interpretation, BTW, nothing written in stone or officially from the IJF). Personally, I think the jumping Juji Gatame is an exciting move, and takes a lot of skill to pull off. At higher level competitions, it's appropriate in my opinion.
+++++++++++++++++

My lack of height makes most off the ground moves counterproductive here, but then I do like yoko sutemiwaza, and have some success with them, or did, anyway.

Well, it may get interesting. Basically, some have a problem with it as it is said to be "against the spirit of judo." What do you think, Ben?

+++++++++Ben Reinhardt++++++++
I don't think it is against the spirit of Judo to do a jumping Juji Gatame, and I don't think it is illegal under current IJF rules or interpretation of the IJF rules. It's not something one would teach to beginners, but has it's place in higher level competitions, along with a host of other standing arm locks. It could be applied in a manner such that it was done "against the spirit of Judo", but THAT is a judgement call for the ref and line judges to make on an individual basis, as with any other technique. It is still quite uncommon, and the current competitor who does it has a background in Brazillian JJ, so that's probably where he got it from. BTW, he is a ranked national player now, and has had some success in Europe as well.

Ben Reinhardt
+++++++++++++++++++

Mark

I agree, it is not a nage waza, but apparently, there was some confusion with this.

Do you have any photos per chance of this elbow lock when in flight? Huh?:up:

MarkF
18th January 2001, 10:04
Ben,
You're right, the Kodokan has little to do with competition put on by the IJF, but they do have their own, a lot of them. I think they were attempting to explain the difference as to scoring, at least in their way.

Shiai out here is similar to the way shiai was held in Souther California, and pretty much the way it was done in most places earlier in my life. No, the IJF rule is not written in stone, something they fully discuss, as well. I've been a member for a long time, but have found today's international tournament to go wanting. Because of the rules of passivity, some will not even attempt any katamiwaza, and when on the mat, they rise quickly.

What I meant was that even at the state level, everyone knows everyone else, so no matter if it is a four to six hour drive (small state. There is no drive longer thant six hours). The lone university program is at NMSU also participates, as using the model of the IJF, would involve more time than is possible.

Weight classes are out, but certainly the match ups are generally close in ability. Judoka are separeted by grade first, then height. Even with four mats, a state event can take a long time, so the time limits are three minutes for all juniors, and adults through ikkyu, and the BB are five minutes.

Invitationals are done on a win, lose or draw, or ippon, waza-ari awasate-ippon, and hikiwaki. One fights until a loss or draw sits them down. Some of the bigger events, such as a NMSU-sponsored event, are done in a "round-robin" fashion, with line judges, but no penalty scoring (shido, chui, keikoku) and not partial points (koka, yuko). In smaller events, even waza-ari doesn't win but in the larger, state-wide events, it does. However, warnings are given, but never for passivity. We have found more often than not, the player who seems to be losing, is waiting on an opportunity to counter, so penalizing him/her, is counter-productive. Forcing attempts at waza frequently finds a competitor losing, so since I've lived here (most of my training was done in LA (1963 to 1986), it has been this way.

Anyway I like the fact that there is less official intrusion, but in that vein, officials (shimban) do dress according to the rule. The blue dogi is not enforced, but if one is going to wear it, than there must be one in white.

As to scoring, we generally follow the IJF rules and the Kodokan, in that certain nage is forbidden (dakiage being one), and as far as jumping juji, we found it much easier to call it "non-scoring" but neither is submission to this waza, counted, unless it is begun on the way down, and then applied when on the mat. Lots of things are not done in randori/shiai, but that doesn't mean they are not done, or practiced.

Otherwise, it is a lot of fun, certification of officials is done when necessary. We also travel out of state when the State is invited. State Championships are held, but usually this includes other states with dojo which are in border towns/cities.

Insurance has never been a problem, but injuries do happen.

Possibly, I am a romantic, but I think less intrusion makes a more competitive match, but I think once one works within a certain system, in all fairness, the competition is there. I suppose I don't think winning/losing to be all that important, at least not to the point of "winning is everything." Savoring koka, awarded by penalty to the opponent, is not exactly what was in mind since shiai was not treated as a "game."

You are correct, though, this could be intesting and "spirited.":)

Mark

Ben Reinhardt
18th January 2001, 15:24
Originally posted by MarkF
Ben,
You're right, the Kodokan has little to do with competition put on by the IJF, but they do have their own, a lot of them. I think they were attempting to explain the difference as to scoring, at least in their way.

+++++++++Ben Reinhardt++++++++
I see what you mean. At the All Japan Championships (non-weight classified), they don't score koka, only yuko through ippon. As to their view on arm bars and throwing, I think they are pretty much in line with the IJF, or vice-versa.
++++++++++++++

Shiai out here is similar to the way shiai was held in Souther California, and pretty much the way it was done in most places earlier in my life. No, the IJF rule is not written in stone, something they fully discuss, as well. I've been a member for a long time, but have found today's international tournament to go wanting. Because of the rules of passivity, some will not even attempt any katamiwaza, and when on the mat, they rise quickly.

+++++++++Ben Reinhardt++++++++
I'm a bit puzzled as to what the rules on passivity have to do with katamewaza, specifically ne waza. There are no negative judo penalties in ne waza. One simply has to make progress in groundwork for it to continue. There was a big overreaction to some IJF advice on how long matwork should be allowed to go on on the part of referees around the world...the result was that at times, referees would not allow any ground work...that was simply wrong, of course. The idea is for the competitors to be active on the ground, to actively be attacking. It's getting better, referees are allowing more time in matwork, but still, some sort of progress has to be made...action needs to occur. Matwork is an option in any case, and is not required. Depending on the circumstances, for example, if one is behind in score, and faces a strong ne waza technician, one may not want to waste time in ne waza.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

What I meant was that even at the state level, everyone knows everyone else, so no matter if it is a four to six hour drive (small state. There is no drive longer thant six hours). The lone university program is at NMSU also participates, as using the model of the IJF, would involve more time than is possible.

Weight classes are out, but certainly the match ups are generally close in ability. Judoka are separeted by grade first, then height. Even with four mats, a state event can take a long time, so the time limits are three minutes for all juniors, and adults through ikkyu, and the BB are five minutes.

Invitationals are done on a win, lose or draw, or ippon, waza-ari awasate-ippon, and hikiwaki. One fights until a loss or draw sits them down. Some of the bigger events, such as a NMSU-sponsored event, are done in a "round-robin" fashion, with line judges, but no penalty scoring (shido, chui, keikoku) and not partial points (koka, yuko). In smaller events, even waza-ari doesn't win but in the larger, state-wide events, it does. However, warnings are given, but never for passivity. We have found more often than not, the player who seems to be losing, is waiting on an opportunity to counter, so penalizing him/her, is counter-productive. Forcing attempts at waza frequently finds a competitor losing, so since I've lived here (most of my training was done in LA (1963 to 1986), it has been this way.
++++++++Ben Reinhardt+++++++
Wow, you guys are old fashioned ! Wazari doesn't win ? I think wazari wins even at the Kodokan tournaments. No penalties ? You must mean for "negative Judo", right...certainly if one goes out and say, does something that is a "direct" keikoku or hansokumake, there are consquences ? Just waiting for an opportunity to counter is not in my opinion not good Judo, and not to be encouraged. One practices until one can attack effectively against a fully resisting opponent, as tested in shiai. I realize that in the "old days" there were a lot of "counter" type players who would simply lie in wait for there opponent to make a mistake.
Anyway, I'm not being critical of your system in New Mexico, just a bit surprised at some of your procedures, that's all.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Anyway I like the fact that there is less official intrusion, but in that vein, officials (shimban) do dress according to the rule. The blue dogi is not enforced, but if one is going to wear it, than there must be one in white.

As to scoring, we generally follow the IJF rules and the Kodokan, in that certain nage is forbidden (dakiage being one), and as far as jumping juji, we found it much easier to call it "non-scoring" but neither is submission to this waza, counted, unless it is begun on the way down, and then applied when on the mat. Lots of things are not done in randori/shiai, but that doesn't mean they are not done, or practiced.
++++++++Ben Reinhardt+++++++
Daki Age is not a scoring throw in any case. In the really old days, if you did it and picked up your opponent to shoulder level, you got ippon. The lift part of Daki Age is still used, but mate is called as soon as uke clears the mat by even a few inches. On the jumping juji, I see the point of say, not allowing the lock to be fully applied until uke/tori are on the ground. It results in (probably) less chance of injury. I had originally thought that was the current interpretation myself, however, as I related in an earlier post, the best opinion I have gotten so far from an IJF A is that the lock can occur in the air, so to speak, as it is an standing type arm bar.
++++++++++++++++

Otherwise, it is a lot of fun, certification of officials is done when necessary. We also travel out of state when the State is invited. State Championships are held, but usually this includes other states with dojo which are in border towns/cities.

Insurance has never been a problem, but injuries do happen.
++++++++Ben R.+++++++
Are these events you hold sanctioned by JF, JA, or JI ? Just curious...
++++++++++++++++

Possibly, I am a romantic, but I think less intrusion makes a more competitive match, but I think once one works within a certain system, in all fairness, the competition is there. I suppose I don't think winning/losing to be all that important, at least not to the point of "winning is everything." Savoring koka, awarded by penalty to the opponent, is not exactly what was in mind since shiai was not treated as a "game."

++++++++++Ben Reinhardt++++++
The referee is supposed to be invisible until action on his/her part is called for. The idea is for the referee to facilitate the match, and stay out of the way as much as possible. Judo is supposed to happen in a Judo match, to benefit the participants primarily. It's not for the referee, although some seem to think it is !

My experience is that most people would rather win by ippon, and strive for that. At the highest levels of Judo as sport, though, often a koka is all that separates two equally matched competitors. In a sport context, the minor scores are helpful...koka and yuko are simply different level of kinsa made explicit and recorded on a scoreboard, rather than in the referees head. In a martial art/way context, koka/yuko are not that important. Just depends on what your are doing and the purpose.
+++++++++++++
Ben Reinhardt

You are correct, though, this could be intesting and "spirited.":)

Mark

efb8th
19th January 2001, 01:50
Hi, Guys.

New Mexico sounds like a place I could have gotten real comfortable with the rules (that is before I became all stove up and respectable). In Northern California, in the 60's and 70's, I liked to take the arm half of Hiza Gatame (binding uke's right arm to my left side from the outside while gripping his right lapel with my left hand). The take-down was a simple sit and right turn in which the sit generated a pull-down action, and the turn locked and threatened the integrety of the elbow AFTER I was on the ground. you both sound like up to date referees. How would today's rules regard this combination?

MarkF
19th January 2001, 11:31
Hi, Ed,
I was trying to picture it, but then it just hit me. I don't think there is a problem here and could even be considered a nage,or at least not an arm lock take down, at least by the new definition by the Kodokan, but I don't think there is anything inherently wrong here, just a big "owie" by from your uke.

You enjoyed hurting people, don't you, Ed?:)

Does this in anyway involve the shoulder joint?

Mark

MarkF
19th January 2001, 12:02
Hi, Ben,
I of course, was way over-generalizing how things are done, but when I played the shiai circuit in Los Angeleles and most of California, in some, waza-ari didn't win, and I found out the hard way, but it also taught me something. From then, I never stopped attacking once I was in motion, even whe Ippon is called. It is similar to the fake tap out. Don't waste your chances.

New Mexico has a population of just over a million, and financing for the appropriate arena, may limit time. So we decided to eliminate some things which may over-burden. It depends on the forum, eg, at NMSU, they host the biggest tournaments out here, so some things are done differently. Those who officiate get together and agree on the terms, that's all. I do so like a match to end with Ippon, but I understand what you mean as to the uses of partial points. Still, I suppose I can't get my mind of the extra-lighweight judoka (women's venue in Sydney-"Yawara chan" I think they call her?), as she did maintain the koka received on a passivity call, and even announcers were calling it, in that she had to maintain her lead one koka to nothing advantage if she is to win.

Anyway, some judoka just won't attempt any matwork, and I don't think I said it was gone, as many matches were won mainly by kami shiho gatame, some with ten second pins, and others, twenty-five.

I've spoken with some of the people who I thought were older gentlemen when I was young, and most see it, at the least, as a political game, and which lacks the really fine techniques back when.

I support the sport of judo with all my heart, but when a good rule of play gets results, there seems to be two bad ones which intervene.

Even in Albuquerque, there are only three dojo, with one closed for the time being until another one can be secured.

BTW: You are absolutely correct about referees. It is the same in boxing, and one of the better descriptions of a refereee I heard during a boxing match: "The best referees are the ones never seen. This doesn't mean the are not seen, just are not remembered as having a job that night."

It works both ways.

BTW: There are, of course, equivelnt penalties for the worst of them, but rarely is there a need to take more action than a warning. Hansokumake has been given, such as a flagrant foul for the second time. Warnings are given for coaching, as well, but all in all, the "wa" is good, the demonstrations are nice, and once in a while someone discovers that New Mexico isn't a foreign country and stops in.:D

It was also my work which brought me out here, so please don't get the idea I hold anything against the sport of judo. I just became interested in the rest of it, as well.

Mark

efb8th
20th January 2001, 05:41
Hi, Mark.

I have never enjoyed hurting people in any fashion. If by "Hurt" you mean damage. I have lost, I would estimate, as many as a dozen matches to people who had their adrenaline up and would not submit to my arm bar. I could never bring myself to break someone's arm for the victory. Winning was never as important as being able to look myself in the mirror in the morning. But, of course, I have no qualms about administering a little therapeutic pain to help get an opponent's "mind right." Some people are just looking for a chance to lose (after a while).

In the aforementioned arm drag, there is no pressure against the shoulder at any point in the art, and there is no takedown related reversal of the elbow joint at all, UNTIL the entwining arm is straightened AFTER tori and uke are safely on the mat. I have been told by referees that my art was a use of inferior technique to gain entry into newaza ("matte, rise"), and I have been told by referees that it was a smooth and continuous transition into newaza ("IPPON! Sore made.") Same art.

Go figure.

efb8th
20th January 2001, 05:45
By the way, hello Ben.

It's nice to have an obvious "knows-his-stuff" guy on the board. We can all benefit from your insights. Visit often and stay long.

Regards,

MarkF
20th January 2001, 10:53
Hi, Ed,
I suppose if my needling urges you to write good posts, then I will continue to do it.

Officials are as judgemental as anyone so the different descriptions are not a surprise, but are sad. Good waza deserves to be recognized but some would rather be involved in all phases, including the result. I've had throws, such as o soto gari, called waza-ari, when uke not only was unable to breathe but needed assistence (from me) to get up at all.

I've always said you are a powerhouse of knowledge when it comes to waza, and no matter what I write, I know that, and nothing else was meant.

I also agree that the discussion here has taken a healthy bite out of quality so don't get too busy.:)

This describes in more detail what the technique was, so all in all, I'd say a good day of "arm twisting."

Mark

Ben Reinhardt
21st January 2001, 02:17
Originally posted by efb8th
Hi, Guys.

New Mexico sounds like a place I could have gotten real comfortable with the rules (that is before I became all stove up and respectable). In Northern California, in the 60's and 70's, I liked to take the arm half of Hiza Gatame (binding uke's right arm to my left side from the outside while gripping his right lapel with my left hand). The take-down was a simple sit and right turn in which the sit generated a pull-down action, and the turn locked and threatened the integrety of the elbow AFTER I was on the ground. you both sound like up to date referees. How would today's rules regard this combination?

+++++Ben Reinhardt+++++++
It's not a throw, as you just sit down. You are essentially applying a standing arm lock, then sitting down and finishing it. Not a problem under current rules. Any standing armlock can be used to take uke down to the ground. Falling forward onto the arm (like doing say, Wake Gatame standing then throwing uke with Tai Otoshi and fallingon their arm is Hansokumake.
++++++++++

Ben Reinhardt
21st January 2001, 02:39
Originally posted by MarkF
Hi, Ben,
I of course, was way over-generalizing how things are done, but when I played the shiai circuit in Los Angeleles and most of California, in some, waza-ari didn't win, and I found out the hard way, but it also taught me something. From then, I never stopped attacking once I was in motion, even whe Ippon is called. It is similar to the fake tap out. Don't waste your chances.
++++Ben+++++++
I see what you mean now. I never let up until I hear (sore made !) from the referee.
+++++++++++++++

New Mexico has a population of just over a million, and financing for the appropriate arena, may limit time. So we decided to eliminate some things which may over-burden. It depends on the forum, eg, at NMSU, they host the biggest tournaments out here, so some things are done differently. Those who officiate get together and agree on the terms, that's all. I do so like a match to end with Ippon, but I understand what you mean as to the uses of partial points. Still, I suppose I can't get my mind of the extra-lighweight judoka (women's venue in Sydney-"Yawara chan" I think they call her?), as she did maintain the koka received on a passivity call, and even announcers were calling it, in that she had to maintain her lead one koka to nothing advantage if she is to win.
++++++=Ben+++++++
Her name is Ryoko Tamura, and she is a fantastic judoka...who normally wins all her matches by ippon. She is known for continuous atacks from all angles with a large variety of throw, and also for her outstanding katame waza. I suggest you buy the 1997 and 1999 World Championships tapes to see her in her prime. You won't be disappointed. She doesn't do "koka Judo". In the Olympics, in the finals, it was recognized she was past her prime a bit, and so in the finals played a more careful game.

Another modern Judoka I think you would appreciate is K. Inoue, the -100 kg champion from Japan (World Champ and Olympic Champ). He is incredible, only 19 years old...goes for ippon with every attack. He threw N. Gill, of Canada, in the finals of the Olympics with Uchi Mata for Ippon...no makikomi, and he basically finished standing...and N. Gill is no pushover.
++++++++++++++++++

Anyway, some judoka just won't attempt any matwork, and I don't think I said it was gone, as many matches were won mainly by kami shiho gatame, some with ten second pins, and others, twenty-five.
++++Ben Reinhardt++++++
In general, people enter ne waza after a throw or failed throw. Attacking someone in, say, the turtle position is not a high percentage of sucess, and uses a lot of energy, especially at high level competition.
+++++++++++

I've spoken with some of the people who I thought were older gentlemen when I was young, and most see it, at the least, as a political game, and which lacks the really fine techniques back when.
+++++++++Ben++++++++
What kind of political game ? The Judo itsself, or the rules ? Judo has always had politics, just as any other organized human endevour. The good old days were always better, don't you know, meaning no disrespect to anyone. Judo HAS changed since it's inception, and especially after WW2. The influence of wrestling has been huge, especially from eastern Europe and Russia.
++++++++++++=

I support the sport of judo with all my heart, but when a good rule of play gets results, there seems to be two bad ones which intervene.
+++++Ben++++++
The current rules allow a lot of "playing the rules", which is annoying. Such strategies as the "safe attacks", controlling the clock, pushing the score, etc., often make for a very tactical match that is really boring, and in which not much Judo gets done. There need to be some changes, for sure, that will somehow minimize that sort of play. On the other hand, I've seen the non-combativity rules pick up the pace of matches a lot, an encourage attacking and seeking to create opportunity to throw.
++++++++++++++++++

Even in Albuquerque, there are only three dojo, with one closed for the time being until another one can be secured.

++++++Ben++++
You must know Jesse B. He is originally from Louisiana.
+++++++++++++++

BTW: There are, of course, equivelnt penalties for the worst of them, but rarely is there a need to take more action than a warning. Hansokumake has been given, such as a flagrant foul for the second time. Warnings are given for coaching, as well, but all in all, the "wa" is good, the demonstrations are nice, and once in a while someone discovers that New Mexico isn't a foreign country and stops in.:D
++++++++Ben++++++
In local or "training" tournaments, we will often warn new competitors, especially juniors. For adults, though, doing something that earns keikoku or hansokumake doesn't get a warning.
++++++++++++

It was also my work which brought me out here, so please don't get the idea I hold anything against the sport of judo. I just became interested in the rest of it, as well.

++++==Ben+++++++
I didn't think you had anything against "sport" Judo. You are just more interested in the traditional aspects of Judo...as I am, believe it or not. I don't see that much conflict, really, in principle. The same principles apply, and one can reap the same benefits with the correct attitude.
++++++++++++Ben Reinhardt+++++++++

Mark

Ben Reinhardt
21st January 2001, 02:49
Originally posted by efb8th
Hi, Mark.

I have never enjoyed hurting people in any fashion. If by "Hurt" you mean damage. I have lost, I would estimate, as many as a dozen matches to people who had their adrenaline up and would not submit to my arm bar. I could never bring myself to break someone's arm for the victory. Winning was never as important as being able to look myself in the mirror in the morning. But, of course, I have no qualms about administering a little therapeutic pain to help get an opponent's "mind right." Some people are just looking for a chance to lose (after a while).

In the aforementioned arm drag, there is no pressure against the shoulder at any point in the art, and there is no takedown related reversal of the elbow joint at all, UNTIL the entwining arm is straightened AFTER tori and uke are safely on the mat. I have been told by referees that my art was a use of inferior technique to gain entry into newaza ("matte, rise"), and I have been told by referees that it was a smooth and continuous transition into newaza ("IPPON! Sore made.") Same art.

+++++++Ben Reinhardt++++++
The entry into ne waza has to be "skillful". If you trap uke's arm as described in your previous post, then sit down as described, that is certainly a skillful entry into ne waza. In years past, (I mean decades), referees were much more strict about this. In modern times, for example, the common BJJ trick of simply jumping up and wrapping the legs around the waist, then dragging uke down would get a "matte" and a penalty. Same with the simple sit back with your foot in ukes stomach move. A football tackle same.
+++++++++++++++Ben Reinhardt++++++++++

Go figure.

MarkF
21st January 2001, 10:01
The entry into ne waza has to be "skillful". If you trap uke's arm as described in your previous post, then sit down as described, that is certainly a skillful entry into ne waza. In years past, (I mean decades), referees were much more strict about this. In modern times, for example, the common BJJ trick of simply jumping up and wrapping the legs around the waist, then dragging uke down would get a "matte" and a penalty. Same with the simple sit back with your foot in ukes stomach move. A football tackle same.
+++++++++++++++Ben Reinhardt++++++++++



Ben,
Are you talking about kani basami or dojime? A football tackle. I've seen morote gari done which was questionable. Even the Kodokan describes this throw in two different manners, but yes, if you are talking about "shoot" it makes a difference. Sometimes it is hard to tell if one lowers the head instead of using one shoulder. In other descriptions, both shoulders are used.

Mark



I know Jesse Ballou. Sandia was the first dojo I found here, and it is still on the map. Jesse got his training in the Air force I think, or an armed services club. In fact, I live pretty close to Sandia.

I've take over two other judo programs which failed, and the one I know of which closed, before it opened last year it was karate.

Other dojo have been in the same place. They will find another location. I have noticed that the one "Ninja Turtle" is not listed.:)

Mark

BTW: Some just do not do newaza. Period. It is not a question of opportunity, but some just will not stay on the mat even with the advantage.





[Edited by MarkF on 01-21-2001 at 04:05 AM]

Ben Reinhardt
22nd January 2001, 14:34
Originally posted by MarkF

The entry into ne waza has to be "skillful". If you trap uke's arm as described in your previous post, then sit down as described, that is certainly a skillful entry into ne waza. In years past, (I mean decades), referees were much more strict about this. In modern times, for example, the common BJJ trick of simply jumping up and wrapping the legs around the waist, then dragging uke down would get a "matte" and a penalty. Same with the simple sit back with your foot in ukes stomach move. A football tackle same.
+++++++++++++++Ben Reinhardt++++++++++



Ben,
Are you talking about kani basami or dojime? A football tackle. I've seen morote gari done which was questionable. Even the Kodokan describes this throw in two different manners, but yes, if you are talking about "shoot" it makes a difference. Sometimes it is hard to tell if one lowers the head instead of using one shoulder. In other descriptions, both shoulders are used.

Mark

+++++Ben+++++++++
No, not Kani Basami. Dojime in the sense of being in that position (legs around uke's waist/ribs). A football tackle in the sense of just say, slamming into uke, shoulder in his gut or chest, and tackling him. If you do that and grab the legs, it's Morote Gari, albeit not a very skillful one necessarily. Morote Gari can be done quite skillfully, look at how succesful Robert Vanderwaal was with it. I can think of a sort of tackle that is borderline...similar to a wrestling takedown. You grab uke around the waiste from the side or back, and sling them to the ground. It's kind of like a Daki Wakare from a standing position. See it in high school wrestling a lot.
++++++++++



I know Jesse Ballou. Sandia was the first dojo I found here, and it is still on the map. Jesse got his training in the Air force I think, or an armed services club. In fact, I live pretty close to Sandia.

I've take over two other judo programs which failed, and the one I know of which closed, before it opened last year it was karate.

Other dojo have been in the same place. They will find another location. I have noticed that the one "Ninja Turtle" is not listed.:)

Mark

BTW: Some just do not do newaza. Period. It is not a question of opportunity, but some just will not stay on the mat even with the advantage.

+++++++Ben Reinhardt++++++
Sure, they don't. Ne Waza is optional in Judo competition. Judo didn't really have ne waza as it is known today in it's earliest days.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





[Edited by MarkF on 01-21-2001 at 04:05 AM]