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autrelle
16th January 2001, 19:51
i ask this question to any student of "Iwama-style" taijutsu: what are the circumstances that nage uses shomenuchi to initiate the technique, as opposed to responding to shomenuchikomi with a technique? for example, in the new series Takemusu Aikido, ikkyo is shown as clearly being initiated by nage. but in the demos of iriminage, there is a version where nage moves in response to shomenuchikomi from uke. when is it more "correct" from an academic standpoint to initiate rather than to receive. i address this to anyone but particularly to those who study Aikido as taught by Saito Sensei.

truly

ps. koi-thanks a bunch for the article.

Scott
17th January 2001, 02:16
Autrelle,

I study Iwama style Aikido. In Aikido the Nage normally creates an opening in his guard for the purpose of drawing a specific attack from the Uke, rather this is the Aikidokas intent in a real life situation. Obviously the Uke will respond as the technique requires. The Shomenuchi strike is used in the ikkyo technique to draw a response from the Uke that places his blocking/parrying arm into a position that facilitates the execution of the ikkyo technique. This presupposes that in a real life encounter a potential assailant will respond in the same manner. I have found it difficult in non-Aikido classes to draw this type of response on a consistent basis. One reason is because you have to slow down the strike enough for the assailant to be able to block/parry it. The strike must pose a threat, but not too great of a threat. If the shomenuchi strike is too fast you end up hitting the opponent, if it is too slow it does not pose enough of a threat to always warrant the desired response. In addition this strike leaves you vulnerable to a parry followed by a strike to the ribcage. Many Aikido techniques can be executed using a premptive strike to draw a response from the opponent.

I have even had some success using ikkyo on a person set in a boxing stance. It takes proper timing and quickness to execute efecively. With the opponent in a boxing stance, enter quickly to the inside with your lead foot. Your lead hand will parry slighty and grasp the opponents lead hand at the wrist. Your rear hand will cup the oppenents lead elbow. Continue entering and execute the technique. I have found a good time to enter is just as the opponent is recoiling from a probing jab. It also helps if the opponent is dancing on his toes as it raises his center of gravity and destabilizes his balance.

I hope this is helpful.

Sincerely,

M Clarke
19th January 2001, 05:43
Hello Autrelle and Scott,
I gather this is a question of kihon, not application. Pardon me if I am wrong, but I will answer with my beginner's understanding. Kihon for shomenuchi osae waza has nage initiate the technique by striking towards uke's face with tegatana. Same for many nage waza For the technique you mentioned, the kihon for irimi nage is the same; initiate the technique with a strike to uke's face, when they respond, cut their block as you enter.. etc etc. The variation with shomenuchikomi, I believe, is not kihon but a variation of the shomenuchi entry.
Regards

autrelle
19th January 2001, 14:33
yes, this is very helpful. this is a question of kihon and i wish i had thought to better state my question as such. so now my question is this-is there an instance where the kihon is uke initiating with shomen-uchikomi?

Ron Tisdale
19th January 2001, 15:49
Blah! double post...
Ron Tisdale

[Edited by Ron Tisdale on 01-19-2001 at 10:08 AM]

Ron Tisdale
19th January 2001, 16:07
Yoshinkan also uses shite attacking in many basic techniques for the linear, or omote versions.

Shomenuchi ikkajo osae ichi
shomenuchi nikkajo osae ichi
shomenuchi sankajjo osae ichi

would all be examples of this.

Uke strikes on the ni, or ura/tenkan versions of these techniques. Ex.

Shomenuchi ikkajo osae ni

gyakuhamni (opposite stance, shite in left, uke in right)
uke strikes shomenuchi
shite shuffles in to meet the strike either as its going up or before it begins to come forward or down. Cup the elbow, tegatana at the wrist.
Shite pivots 180 degrees, cutting down uke's arm, then body changes, pins the shoulder, one knee down, then the other, then pin.

Whats interesting (to me) is that even the number two or ura/tenkan techniques require shite to enter *before* pivoting.

I'm not sure, but I believe I've been told that if uke doesn't block on the number one version of the technique, you hit them. If your intent is strong, they'll probably block. These are kihon though, so I probably wouldn't look to deep for direct application. A trained fighter is just as likely to slip, dodge or even take the hit, to launch a strong counter attack.

And a tegatana strike is not my first choise if I'm attacking someones head. I believe its more symbolic of attacking with a weapon, as in the Daito ryu tradition. It's also easier to go to technique with an open hand, rather than a tightly closed striker's fist.

Ron Tisdale

M Clarke
20th January 2001, 03:56
Hi Autrelle,
Basically, no. All kihon shomenuchi techniques begin with nage initiating the technique by striking towards uke's face with tegatana.In Iwama style, this applies for shomenuchi ura as well as omote.I know what you are feeling about the shomenuchikomi entry... I have a feeling that this entry is trained as shomenuchi kihon at many dojos for techniques like kotegaeshi and iriminage... but if you look in Saito Sensei's books, Takemusu Aikido Basics, Vols 1,2 and 3 ALL his shomenuchi techniques begin with nage initiating. Same with Vol 4 kokyu techniques. And this is how we are taught in Sydney. I will ask our Shihan, Takayasu Sensei, but I am basically sure.
Regards

autrelle
20th January 2001, 07:04
thanks. i have all of the saito book and i will re-read them and look for this. i have visited a Yoshinkan dojo here where i live and i understand the basic tenant of the shomenuchi kihon to be that in ichi, nage initiates, and in ni, uke initiates. i was not clear on the Iwama perspective, but so far this thread had been insightful.

thanks to all. please keep the info coming.

autrelle

M Clarke
21st January 2001, 22:05
Hi Ron,
I agree entirely with you about the provisional nature of the shomenuchi attack. Coming from sword schools it is a method of learning lines and angels and timing and distance, I believe. And, as you say, it does not take to much thought to turn the palm up into shomen ate. The most devestating punch is one that is not telegraphed, brought in by the whole body with the hand lifting from the side under the opponent's radar in the same manner as kihon shomenuchi. Also, in our dojo, there is a great emphasis in randori on shomen ate, or shomen tsuki as part of, or along with, irimi nage as the primary tool for dealing with mutliple opponents. So in this light, the kihon shomenuchi entry is for us an extremely important training method.
Best regards

Ron Tisdale
22nd January 2001, 14:03
Hey Koi (thats the fish right, you're not flirting with us :) ),

I know what you mean about the shomen ate, and the use of a jab or forefist. We will sometimes lead into sokomen iriminage with a strike in one of the dojo where I train, and I find it very effective. If uke doesn't block, there is a realistic threat, and if they do, sokomen. If they block the sokomen, pivot, hook the arm, kote gaeshi or ude garuma. once the contact has been made in such a strong positive manner, any number of techniques seem to flow out of it.

One of the things I like about the elbow power one training from yoshinkan, is how it translates into strong strikes to lead into your techniques.

Ron Tisdale

M Clarke
22nd January 2001, 22:42
Hi Ron,
I have to pick up something very interesting you mention in your last post about once strong positive contact having been made, any number of techniques will arise. I believe this is the essence of Takemusu for Iwama folk. Feeling techniques arise comes form having a lot of positive contact.
Regarding elbow power, in the past, my dojo looked at Kancho's kihon dosa - we were very interested in it as a training method for kokyu development, which I believe (please correct me) is the same as Yoshinkan's hiriki no yosei. Very impressive results from an impressive curriculum.
Regards

M Clarke
22nd January 2001, 22:45
PS: Yes, the fish - I have a thing about slow moving dullards aspiring to jump over waterfalls. Seems they then become dragons. It's a Japanese myth thing. Koinobori and all that.

Dennis Hooker
23rd January 2001, 15:07
Shomen Uchi is done inconsistently throughout the Aikido community. I have heard various definitions of its meaning with regard to Ikkyo in the various Aikido curriculums. I tend to go with the first one I was taught, and that is Shomen Uchi is a strike to the head or face, not a cut. This goes along with my sword training as well. With a sword it is performed much like a pop to the forehead as if knocking someone back, or cracking a lacquered helmet without getting the sword stuck in the helmet or skull. It can knock the head, covered in a hard helmet, back exposing the throat for a cut. Sometimes it is done as Mune Uchi, striking with the back of the sword. However it is viewed as a strike not a cut and when performing Ikkyo for Shomen Uchi it makes much more since. In many Aikido schools Shoman Uchi (a strike) is performed as if it were Kiri Oroshi (cut down). The difference is dramatic if you are executing Ikkyo for example. Perhaps it is not seen as a significant difference to many people in Aikido, and perhaps it need not be. But it is different and if Ueshiba M. Sensei meant for it to be a strike as the name implies (as I was taught anyway) and not a cut then the nature of the Ikkyo principle has been modified considerably over the years.

Just one old mans fickle memory kicking in here.
Dennis Hooker
http://www.shindai.com

Ron Tisdale
23rd January 2001, 16:48
Mr. Hooker,

Thank you for your wonderfull post. This is a big problem (in my opinion) in aikido here in the states. I have seen shomen uchi performed both ways even in the dojo where I train now. I prefer the strike myself, but I was unaware of some of the details you mentioned.

But even performed as a strike, the tegatana hand formation against the skull of an opponant seems a bit strange. It makes more sense against the nose I guess...what exactly would you teach as the specific target?

Experience such as yours is always valued on this forum.

Ron Tisdale

Dennis Hooker
23rd January 2001, 18:03
Thank you Ron. In response to your question on te katana and Shoman Uchi I think it was traditionally a stand-in of the sword. If there is a place on the body I do not wish to strike with the side of my delicate little lily-white hand it is someone’s forehead. Why in days-of-yore this old nut used to smash blocks of ice. Perhaps that’s when my mind went out for a walk and never came back! We in Aikido are not known for rock hard hands, and those delicate little bones do brake against hard surfaces.

Now in truth my scared and gnarled old hands have broken their share of non-offensive objects but I still would not strike someone like that. Look at the old video from Iwama and you see students packed shoulder to shoulder on the mat. It was safer and less room was needed if the arm and hand replaces the movement of the sword. Training was had in relative safety. In my uneducated opinion based on information gleaned from many teachers and fellow students I think the practice has been misunderstood because explanations were lacking and non existent. I was lucky and found teachers willing to talk.





Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
Mr. Hooker,

Thank you for your wonderfull post. This is a big problem (in my opinion) in aikido here in the states. I have seen shomen uchi performed both ways even in the dojo where I train now. I prefer the strike myself, but I was unaware of some of the details you mentioned.

But even performed as a strike, the tegatana hand formation against the skull of an opponant seems a bit strange. It makes more sense against the nose I guess...what exactly would you teach as the specific target?

Experience such as yours is always valued on this forum.

Ron Tisdale

autrelle
23rd January 2001, 18:34
there is in fact a great deal of inconsistency regarding the use of shomenuchi in the states. this has been a quite informative thread. thanks to all.

dennis-i may or may mot have met you sometime last year. i was in orlando for a day and i practiced with your school for a night. i was the one that accidentally broke the jo during the practice test for jodori. if that was you there, then i wanted to thank you again for the fun time.

M Clarke
23rd January 2001, 22:11
Good day all,
Mr Hooker, thank you for you very interesting post - particularly for the vivid reminder of the relationship between weapons and taijutsu. In your comments you mentioned


Originally posted by Dennis Hooker
It can knock the head, covered in a hard helmet, back exposing the throat for a cut. Sometimes it is done as Mune Uchi, striking with the back of the sword.

The striking to the head/face first to enable the true strike is something we see in many photos of older aiki budo with either Osensei or one of his students performing shomenuchi while at the same time delivering an atemi (ippon ken?) to the floating ribs. Would you consider this a parallel?
Also I have heard that using the mune of the sword to strike is favoured by one school more than others, Is this a Kashima ryu technique?
Best regards

davoravo
24th January 2001, 04:54
Dear Autrelle
I believe the question is one of timing and distance.
The technique of shomen uchi ikkyo (irimi form) needs to catch Uke on the upswing. To do this from standing maai against an attacking uke is almost impossible (massive six foot leap entering movement on intiation of attack), hence nage delivers a shomen strike and uke raises his arm ... ikkyo.
For Irimi nage uke's attack is caught on the down stroke and hence the timing is not ridiculous.
I know many schools practice ikkyo this way but against a non-telegraphed-Steve Austin strike the timing is uncomfortable and unrealistic (and poor training in maai, timing and harmony).
The Shomen uchi strike itself is delivered against the same spot as Mitsusibushi ("Crush eyes"), doesn't cause damage but does distract the opponent and also uses the part of the hand that Karateka use to smash bricks and is least susceptible to fractures (compared with the knuckles).

[Edited by davoravo on 01-23-2001 at 11:50 PM]

autrelle
24th January 2001, 13:00
hmmm...what an intersting variant to the rest of the replies. i will personally tend to disagree with you though, and here's why:

1)for ikkyo,in regard to ma-ai, i was always taught that the Kuden (oral tradition) of "two plus eight equals ten, five plus five equals ten." this is to remind us that when uke attacls from a greater ma-ai, we should advance deeply, and from a use a more shallow entry when uke attacks from a closer range.

2)i have been shown very distinct and effective ways to perform ikkyo omote that are in no way based on the necessity of catching the upswing. not to mention the matter of simply doing ura if one is too late to omote.

3)i was always taught that iriminage was a matter of, well, "irimi." not so much about catching this or that part of the anatomy. enter first, then see what's up. the up or downward motion was not as important since you are entering the entire time, and any initial contact with the uke's was not so much to cut with but more to cover one's entry using kokyu-rokyu for protection.

but if i knew it all then i would not be here asking. the Iwama syllabus appears to hav eto most consistent teaching of kihon, and that's why i asked this question in particular to any of them. i have seen many changes (while i have been training) in even the "basic" way the hanmi is used to begin the shomenuchi strike: from, ai-hanmi, uke slides forward, from ai-hanmi uke steps forward, from gyaku-hanmi uke slides forward, and from gyaku-hanmi uke stepping forward. the one consistent was that nage had to adjust by either sliding or stepping appropriately (it nage's duty to know what to do/how to blend). but argh!!! when will the kihon be more solidified for us beginners?! it's bad enough that in Aikido we have very huge issues concerning the nomenclature of our kokyunage-waza (or should i say lack there of?). i heard the most interesting question in class a few years ago: we were practing a kokyu technique when a fellow student asked the instructor what kyu level the technique was. the teacher gave a satisfactory answer, saying that the waza was 5-kyu (basic), comparable to the level of technique someone taking a 5-kyu exam would have to perform.

wow. is there a way to know basic kokyu waza as opposed to advanced kokyu waza (probably), and would a nice set of names attached to those kokyu techniques help out (i'm sure)? if anyone has, thoughts on this, i'm starting a new thread right now so that this one can remain a continuation of the original topic.

davoravo
25th January 2001, 02:16
Dear Autrelle
Sorry, my poor wording may have mislead you on the Irimi Nage - it is more catching the timing and balance of uke rather than a body part (also wish to apologise to anyone I offended regarding their training technique).
Ikkyo-Ura aside I have personally been taught to avoid collsion so that Ikky-omote vs a shomen cutting strike would always have to catch uke's arm on the upswing. Ura obviously gets around collsion as does Ikkyo-omote vs a punch, atemi or shomen direct strike to the forhead. I'm curious to hear how you avoid collision if uke has started the down swing.

[Edited by davoravo on 01-24-2001 at 08:21 PM]

autrelle
25th January 2001, 03:15
heh! the method was not something i understood entirely then or now, but when i was shown it, it involved nage using the arms in more of a kokyu-rokyu fashion than in the manner of cutting. it worked very well, but since i am a beginner i couldn't get it to work for me.

davoravo
26th January 2001, 06:04
The technique I was shown was sweeping the cutting arm much more sideways than usual, so uke's cut and nage's cut form two circles almost at right angles (it is easier to think in three dimensions away from the keyboard). Another technique was meeting uke's arm and redirecting the flow straight upwards but this meant meeting uke as his arm was moving parallel to the floor and not yet toward it. This was at an Aikikai and Yoshinkan school.

Back to Iwama. We are always told to train slowly and I think this may affect technique. As far as I can see Iwama techniques act on Uke's body mechanics rather than momentum, at least up to ikkyu level. Uke is nearly always static so blending is with the grip rather than the movement and involves breaking his posture. I haven't seen any of the fun double and triple tenkan movements we did at Aikikai.

Irimi Nage has a very different feel than at the other schools I have tried and it should be experienced for interests sake.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the reason for Nage initiating technique in Ikkyo omate/irimi but not Irimi-nage is because of timing and distance. This is probably because at Iwama we train slowly. Everything seems logical in your own dojo.