Edge To Edge - Yes Or No?

[Earl Hartman]

I decided to start this thread as a result of a tangent in the "A Question to Karl Friday About Swordsmanship" thread, to wit, the issue of edge-to-edge contact in kenjutsu.

This question can be approached in a number of ways.

1. Is edge to edge contact in blocking and parrying consciously taught in classical sword traditions? When I say "classical traditions" I specifically mean documented Japanese ryuha, not modern interpretations on the part of people who claim to be doing "classical swordsmanship". In the specific kata of specific ryuha, is blocking and parrying consciously done edge to edge? If so, why, if not, why not?

2. Is edge-to-edge contact a good thing or a bad thing? Here we can get into discussing personal opinions about the advisability of such edge-to-edge contact. Is it Good or Bad? Are other methods to be preferred? Are ryuha that teach edge-to-edge contact Inferior to those that don't? Go at it, guys.

To start this off, I offer my observation, based on admittedly limited experience and research, that the Tachiuchi no Kurai of MJER seem to contain many instances of edge-to-edge parrying and blocking that are clearly deliberate. Based on what I have been able to determine, it is unclear to me how old these kata actually are, and it is conceivable that they were re-organized by Oe Sensei when he "rationalized" the curriculum of MJER. Another thing to consider in this case is 1)Oe S. saw active service in the Boshin Civil War that accompanied the fall of the Tokugawa bakufu, at the age of 15 or so, and 2) he was a gekken instructor later in his life. These factors could easily have had a deep influence on his formulation of the kata.

Anyway, I am looking forward to the input of all of you on this matter, specifically the input of those who are intimately familiar with genuine classical Japanese sword traditions.

[Dan Harden]

Add to that, the definition of what a "block" is? AS in a direct stop to a stop, or a parry / reversal. That's a world of difference. Or a sliding parry using the blade or the body to move the blade.
Again I think the true question is where you place your self, or at least where you train "not to be." Both with the blade and the body.

Janty I think you know a few people with a good deal of experience with blade to blade work.huh?

But (I think) Earl is first looking for established Kata of extant ryu to compare modern opinions VS the (supposed)legitimate techniques in ryuha. That way you may have a sound basis for discussion.
All of which adds up to a form of opinion to me. The old guys are all dead. They passed the art down to countless sons, who knows whats left of them. We have all born witness to what happens in ONE generation from someone who had the stuff to his son and so on.......
Still in all it is the best source left.


Dan

[Edited by Dan Harden on 01-17-2001 at 07:46 PM]

[Earl Hartman]

Yes, Dan, it's still the best source left. My guess, based on what I know, is that most ryu probably used various combinations of techniques. Some schools may have preferred one method over another. I don't really know. I just want to hear from practitoners of classical ryuha what their practice is and why. That's all.

I don't quite understand your comment about modern opinion. I agree that there is no question but that the ryu we have today have been changed from what they were in the past. Still, it's the best thing to work with.

Also, I am quite open to the theoretical possibility that some people alive today may be better swordsmen than those in the past. That is not what I am after. I want to know whether or not classical Japanese ryuha used the edge to block with. People may have different definitions of what the word "block" or "parry" might mean, but I hope that will come out in the discussion.

[Dan Harden]

Hi Earl


you wrote

I don't quite understand your comment about modern opinion.
****************

let me clarify

you wrote

1. Is edge to edge contact in blocking and parrying consciously taught in classical sword traditions? When I say "classical traditions" I specifically mean documented Japanese ryuha, not modern interpretations on the part of people who claim to be doing "classical swordsmanship". In the specific kata of specific ryuha, is blocking and parrying consciously done edge to edge? If so, why, if not, why not?

2. Is edge-to-edge contact a good thing or a bad thing? >>Here we can get into discussing personal opinions about the advisability of such edge-to-edge contact<<<.
Is it Good or Bad? Are other methods to be preferred? Are ryuha that teach edge-to-edge contact Inferior to those that don't? Go at it, guys.

I wrote

1. (number added)
But (I think) Earl is first looking for established Kata of extant ryu to......

2. (added)
compare modern opinions VS the (supposed)legitimate techniques in ryuha. That way you may have a sound basis for discussion.

I thought I had a good handle on what you were trying to accomplish.
1. prior established history
2. opinion of modern exponents doing those arts
3. possibly general discussion of the voracity of these techniques

Yes?

Dan

[Earl Hartman]

Dan:

Yes, that's pretty much correct. I would like to get the specifics of actual practices in classical ryuha before going on to the other part of the discussion, though. Still, even if that's not possible, I'd still like to discuss it. I'm not sure how much I can add personally, though. My experience with Yagyu Shinkage Ryu is far too shallow as yet, my MJER experience was primarily with the solo iai forms, and modern kendo doesn't count.

However, I know that there are experienced TSKSR, MJER, Kashima Shin Ryu, and YSR practioners, among others, who either lurk and/or post, so I was hoping to hear from them.

[Edited by Earl Hartman on 01-17-2001 at 08:26 PM]

[hyaku]

Hello Earl

This is a debatable question even among teachers in Japan but not too significant a problem.
Like other post I have to say whether other not your are doing a forceful block or a blocking sliding action using the force of the blow to increase your own cutting potential. The deciding factor has to be the body movement used to avoid the opponents cut and retaliation. Looking at the physical aspects and the fact that blade is held principally in the right hand, if the cut is coming either from Shomen or towards the neck there is going to be some amount of angle in the parry if your edge is up or down.

This brings us back to the original thread questioning an attempt to cut through the body armour. Perhaps there seems to be some confusion brought about by mixing modern and old techniques. Armour is used as protection but the original methods were to try and cut the unprotected parts. This has reversed itself as now we strike at the protected parts. It would be no use crying “medic”, Although Yakuyoku (Chinese medicines) were used I don't think armies had actual medical units touring the battlefield. Temperatures in Japan particularly in summer are in the high thirties (Celsius). Reading accounts of the A-Bomb in August we find victims dying of infection within days

In my Ryu (Kageryu) I was taught that meeting the force of a full blooded cut with a sliding action would be completely insufficient. The blocking force parries away the opponents cut before he has time to generate any real power himself.parriews as with cuts are generate from the hip. In this case blocks are not made with the kensen and require Hikigiri action to complete techniques. The argument against using the side of the blade too much was also the fact that if insufficiently parried, one’s own cutting edge would cut oneself and it was better to incur damage to the blade rather than you.

One useful comment against this is the fact that if the edges of two blades meet they will chip and perhaps lock together hindering the action. On the other hand I have been told that in the heat of the moment this should be of no consequence.

Anyone game to try this out with some good meaty blades to see what the reaction is and report back to the Forum?

Niten Ichiryu:
Invariably, parrying, sliding actions are accompanied by an avoiding action. A body rising action to counteract the force of the cut converted to a dowward cutting action with deep iaigoshi, or body avoiding action which puts one well inside the maai of the opponent. Upward parries are two handed protecting the shoulders A downward parry is usually with the blade edge striking down a blade that is already descending that has missd the target. In two sword techniques the left hand is essentially used for parries, the right for cutting.

Indeed a debatable question.

Hope this helps

Hyakutake Colin

[Nathan Scott]

Hello,

My general views on this recurring topic are included in my FAQ-in-progress, and can be viewed at the following link for those interested:

http://www.shinkendo.com/faq.html#4

As an addendum, and to address Earl-san's question more specifically, I can report of one older koryu in particular that does edge-to-edge contact some of the time.

The Komagawa Kaishin ryu claims to have maintained the most (or the most known to them at least) accurate version of Shinkage ryu still extant. The techniques are of course armored, and really feel very authentic and logical.

In cases where the side of the blade is used for deflections, the blade seems to be supported at least most of the time by either the left hand (Torii) or against body parts/armor. When there is edge to edge contact, from what I've seen it appears to show itself against the first sudden strike from the enemy, after which diversions seem to be favored. Unfortuantely, I've seen very little of this style, but what I have seen really seems authentic and old.

Based on my limited viewing of this style, it appears to me as thought they use the hard block when diversions are not possible, which is pretty much what I said in my FAQ coincidentally.

If your curious about this ryu-ha, they are listed in the Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten, and the school is listed in Professor Friday's book "Legacies of the Sword" as being one of roughly a dozen important branches founded by direct, somewhat famous students of Kamiizumi Ise no Kami Hidetsuna (Nobutsuna).

Regards,

[W.Bodiford]

Earl Hartman wrote:

*quote*

1. Is edge to edge contact in blocking and parrying consciously taught in classical sword traditions? When I say "classical traditions" I specifically mean documented Japanese ryuha, not modern interpretations on the part of people who claim to be doing "classical swordsmanship". In the specific kata of specific ryuha, is blocking and parrying consciously done edge to edge? If so, why, if not, why not?

*end quote*

Hi Earl.

The simple answer is "yes." In every demonstration of every ryuha that I have witnessed the kata are demonstrated with edge to edge contact, not just when using wooden swords (bokuto) or leather-covered bamboo swords (fukuro shinai) but also when using steel swords. In fact I saw one especially memorable demonstration by members of the Jikishinkageryu in which two swordsmen used real swords in a sustained period of extremely fast and powerful attack-parry-counter attack. (What I would characterize as two-person combination ukenagashi-kirikaeshi, although my terminology might not be understood outside of Kashima-Shinryu). Sparks flew into the air throughout the exchange. Afterwards I got to look at the swords they used. They had so many nicks in their blades that they practically looked like saw teeth.

The complicated answer is "yes and no." In other words, it is impossible to know what is being taught just by observing kata from the outside. Good kata should work on the practitioners and should be all but invisible to outside observers.

I do not know how many sword kata there really are in Kashima-Shinryu. There are so many different variations, modifications, and alternative combinations that the number could be infinite. At the same time, all the seemingly endless variety are derived from such simple basics that it takes years just to realize how simple it all is. In reality, there are only a handful of kata --- the first ones that are taught to beginners. Everything else is designed just to help students realize the depths and profundities of the basics.

Regardless of kata --- from the beginner ones to the most advanced ones --- I can easily perform any one of them with edge-to-edge contact, with back-of-blade-to-edge contact, or without any sword-to-sword contact at all. It is so simple to go from any one of these modes to any other one that it requires no thought, no preparation, no time, and no reflexes. In fact, we usually practice battojutsu by unsheathing the sword and striking the receiver in one seamless motion. The strike is performed with the back of the blade. But the same kata can be performed in front of a makiwara that will be cut in half. The motion, movement, timing, speed (etc.) are exactly the same regardless of what part of the blade is used.

Moreover, even edge-to-edge is not any one thing. Beginners usually perform strikes, parries, and blocks in unskillful ways that causes their own weapon to absorb much of the force of impact. When they start learning Kashima-Shinryu beginners will break bokuto in half quite frequently, as often as every few months. More advanced practitioners learn how to project the force out of the own weapon in such a way that the entire force of impact is concentrated on the opponent's weapon. No impact at all should be absorbed by their own weapon. They can practice for years without breaking a bokuto even though they strike with more speed, force, and power than can be generated by beginners. If one masters proper tenouchi, it is possible to deliver an edge-to-edge strike in such a way that it will leave my edge (mostly) intact while shattering the opponent's blade.

Of course, opponents should also know how to achieve similar results. Even a well-made sword that has tested well can break. For this reason we also practice variations of sword kata during which we discard our sword mid-swing and pin the opponent to the ground with jujutsu. Or in mid-swing we drop the long sword and finish the technique by unsheathing a short weapon. The possible variations are endless.

Anyone who watches a Kashima-Shinryu demonstration, though, will not see any of the above. All that might be visible to them is the sounds of bokuto being struck together with considerable force and speed. It sounds like destructive edge-to-edge and if they look closely it will appear that way too. The outside observer might dismiss it as impractical with real swords. Without this kind of seemingly destructive practice, though, no one would learn how to master the more practical applications that cannot be seen.

[Earl Hartman]

Professor Bodiford:

Thanks for the reply. This was pretty much what I was looking for. The main reason I started this thread is because in many exchanges with various people on this subject, I found that there was a common belief that edge-to-edge contact was inadvisable/not taught/inferior/to be avoided becasue of the supposedly fatal damage to the edge of the sword that would inevitably result. The more I thought about it the sillier it seemed to me that a man fighting for his life would either 1) worry about what happened to his sword, and/or 2) be using a sword that would be rendered useless if it struck the enemy's blade edge to edge. Thus, my question.

In any case, this does not mean that I believe that blocking the enemy's cut edge to edge to stop it cold is the preferred method, necessarily; obviously there are other methods that would be far superior, depending on the situation. It is just that I couldn't conceive of edge-to-edge contact being so destructive to the weapon that entire sword systems would be based on the idea of avoiding it. It seems to me, rather, that people would have figured out how to make better swords.

Also, Professor Friday has pointed out in another thread that blades meant for battle were never sharpened to the razor edge that we associate with Japanese swords today; I also seem to remember that Colin Hyakutake made the the same point in some previous conversation, stating that, actually, a sword polished so that the edge is not completely smooth, but actually minutely serrated, actually cuts better than one with the "razor edge" so prized by modern collectors.

Dan Harden has also addressed the issue of edge geometry and the effect this has on the durability of the edge and cutting ability; it seems to me that while some might consider this "boring" it is actually extremely important. If you know that you have a robust edge that can take a lot of punishment and still cut, you will approach a battle in an entirely different frame of mind than if you thought the first whack was going to screw up your sword.

Anyway, thanks for the input. I hope that I will be able to see a demonstration of Kashima Shin Ryu at some point. Sounds quite interesting.

[Nathan Scott]

Hello,

Professor Bodiford wrote:


Regardless of kata --- from the beginner ones to the most advanced ones --- I can easily perform any one of them with edge-to-edge contact, with back-of-blade-to-edge contact, or without any sword-to-sword contact at all. It is so simple to go from any one of these modes to any other one that it requires no thought, no preparation, no time, and no reflexes.

Very interesting. This is exactly how we approach our forms in Shinkendo as well, but I didn't know whether or not other styles worked in this way as I've never read of it before.

We don't tend to use the back of the blade for blocks/diversions, but do use it for strikes on unarmored oppoenents.

Also, we tend to teach everything edge to edge for quite a while so that newer students can become extremely familiar with the principles of blade alignment and leverage. It's been my experience that most if not all newer students have a very difficult time usind the shinogi for deflections without becoming very weak structurally if it is introduced too soon.

Earl-san wrote:


Also, Professor Friday has pointed out in another thread that blades meant for battle were never sharpened to the razor edge that we associate with Japanese swords today; I also seem to remember that Colin Hyakutake made the the same point in some previous conversation, stating that, actually, a sword polished so that the edge is not completely smooth, but actually minutely serrated, actually cuts better than one with the "razor edge" so prized by modern collectors.

I feel compelled to mention that Obata Toshishiro, Shinkendo Kaiso, mentioned this practice for battlefield in the context of "habiki" (pounding the sword edge against sand to dull a blade before combat) in his spotlight here back in August of 2000:

http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=1563

Regards,







[Edited by Nathan Scott on 01-25-2001 at 08:10 PM]

[Earl Hartman]

Professor Bodiford:

Something just occurred to me: how in the world do you break a bokuto in half? If the bokuto is bad to begin with, poorly made, of inferior wood, or with a poor grain alignment; or if one bokuto is made of wood that is softer than the one it hits, I can see it, but, man, the thought of splintered bokuto flying about the dojo on a regular basis is kind of scary.

Does Kashima Shin Ryu use particularly light bokuto? In Yagyu Shinkage Ryu the bokuto are quite light compared to the type of bokuto normally used elsewhere; as it has been explained to me this is so as to teach good technique as opposed to reliance on brute strength. Then again, I have what I have been told is a Katori Shinto Ryu bokuto (the characters for Katori Shrine are branded into the tsuka) that weighs as much as a real sword. The shock required to break something like that would be fearsome.

[Mark Raugas]

Broken bokken can be quite common, and aren't in my opinion only a result of the implement being slim and elegant. I think it depends on the amount of energy different systems develop on the cutting actions of their practitioners. Some approaches develop qualitatively different amount of energy than others; when we study a particular system and get used to the reference level of our teachers and fellow members, it might strike us as strange that others put more or less energy into their actions, or perform them in a different fashion.

In Kaze Arashi Ryu, we also tend to crack and break bokken during routine practice; trying to find a suitable bokken that will last at least a year is not easy. In the end, some of us settle on using shirogashi bokken made in the Keishi Ryu style, which seem to do the trick, being thick and straight enough not to snap in two. But even those will chip and crack after a while (even if you are careful to oil them).

We have a saying, that as one trains, a person develops his ki to the point where it becomes greater than the implements he uses can withstand. What usually happens, is people wind up going through a phase where they break a lot of weapons, after they've developed their energy, until they learn how to better control and focus its projection. This may be similar to what Professor Bodiford alludes to above. But, to be honest, sometimes in the thick of training, they'll just go, and you won't even feel a thing. Seeing that happen time and time again really drives home the need for proper ma-ai and taisabaki when dealing with an attack; it is those principles which will serve to protect you regardless of the condition of the weapon you happen to be using at the time. Any defensive action needs to retain a continued possibility of movement throughout its execution, that removes the practitioner from harm, irrespective of the weapon, or lack of weapon, at hand. I've many times seen a weapon break, but because the defensive movement during which it failed was not isolated, but one picture in a continuum of movement, the "unlucky" person by continuing to progress along a (slighly modified, in terms of distance and timing) path was still able to emerge unscathed.

So, to finish, and coming back to the edge-on-edge or not topic of things, when people ask that question, I think it begs another: what exactly is the context of what is going on? There are many more important things that can be wrong with a situation besides the relative edge alignment of the one person's blade with respect to the other's.

Best,

Mark Raugas
Department of Mathematics
Columbia University

[Dan Harden]

Hi Nathan

I do believe that Earl was trying to proceee in an orderly fashion. Which should be fun to watch around here :) He waslooking for edge to edge verification from a koryu(his parameter), assuming that they all are validated by battlefield experience and know how. Although he and I both agree that may be doubtful, its the best we have.
Obata Sensei's art is not Koryu, and the basis of which is from WW11. Yes? No edge to edge sword fightin there?
he was looking at a parameter like this

1. Koryu validation of the edge to edge technique
2. opinions of those in Koryu
3. Then (AFTER) the submitalls of Koryu exponents, a
general discussion



You also wrote

"I also seem to remember that Colin Hyakutake made the the same point in some previous conversation, stating that, actually, a sword polished so that the edge is not completely smooth, but actually minutely serrated, actually cuts better than one with the "razor edge" so prized by modern collectors."

This is not >entirely< true but is interesting and should be expanded upon.
There are different classifications of "cutting" when discussing bladeware. Impact cutting, vs horizontal slicing.
when it comes to weapons they "cut differently"
I have a rather facinating mechanical study produced by a group showing photographic evidence of sword impacts. Interestingly enough, what they set out to "prove" (that straight swords had greater horizontal impact load) they surprisingly "disproved" by the results of their own study.
Using stop action photography, they showed a straight blade decending from an overhead swing,impacting the target on an angle everytime. This angle actually aided the blade in "cutting" the target.
The same model shows the curve of a Katana decending, The curve of the blade simulated the curve of the human anatomy in swinging and the blade had impacted the target almost perfectly horizontal everytime. This produced more of an "impact" effect, than any sort of cutting. It was noted that at the stop action point of contact, time and again the blade was horizontal with no added slicing motion.
I could talk a blue streak about kiriorishi and the possible different schools uses of that. Also about the intent of a certian Koryu's techniques for cutting into open areas of armor and not "impacting" upon targets....but that's not for here
Things that make you go HHmmmmm!

annyyway........on to microscopic serated edges.

The stone polishing procedure has not and will not produce a serated edge on stones with grit that rise above 400 grit. In the 4000 to 6000 grit range that you find on the Japanese polishing stones you end up with a polished edge not a serated edge. The American bladesmith society (and the Knifemakers guild to a smaller extent) have performed decades of research on cutting with polished edges vs. the stoned serated edge. the reader should note we are NOT talking about a manufactured scalloped serated edge. We are talking about the magnified evidance of tiny serations developed from a stone polish.
Of the photos produced that have been done on Katana NONE of the edges showed any serations. In fact they testified to the AMAZING smoothness of a katana's edge.
They do not have microscopic serated edges

Now, that said. What were the results of these tests. For "impact" cutting against soft targets (read-tameshigiri)a polished edge wins everytime over a minute serated edge!
For "slicing" or cuting objects like rope or foodstuffs. The 400 grit edge is superior.

Ask your teacher how he thought the Hartsfield blade cut. Hartsfields blades look like crap and are ground out like crow bars, but he uses a superior air hardening steel (better than any traditional blade)that cuts agressively. He also uses a process to form an edge that works well. I use it on kukris and bowies for a combination of impact and cutting performance.

You dress a "canard" edge off with a worn out low grit belt on a belt grinder. Hartsfield uses 40 grit, I use 80. Then you polish it on a bench polisher using 1200 grit.
What it does is produce a microscopic, polished, serated edge (2+2=5) that cuts agressively and lasts along time due to the material supporting the edge in profile.


In closing I wish to mention the comments made about dulling edges in sand or what have you.

Earl,
This is exactly what I was referring to about impact strength supportable edges (my comments about European swords having dull edges).
Do you think if I sharpened an edge, then dulled it in sand it would not cut anymore? I would venture to guess you could lop off an arm with it. The bur of a razor edge would have been removed by the sand, but the blade would cut.
A spring tempered European edge would not hold a sharp edge >period<, but the use of a dulled edge there helped the structure support itself since it had softer steel.


Gees.. I am supposed to be finishing a report on edge geometry including this type of information on the other topic header.......
oh me, oh my.

Dan


[Edited by Dan Harden on 01-20-2001 at 07:12 AM]

[Nathan Scott]

Hi Dan-san,

Thanks for the interesting reply.

I have to say, however, that much of what you responded to was either mis-read, mis-quoted or mis-understood!


He was looking for edge to edge verification from a koryu [exponent] (his parameter), assuming that they all are validated by battlefield experience and know how. Although he and I both agree that may be doubtful, its the best we have.

Obata Sensei's art is not Koryu, and the basis of which is from WW11. Yes? No edge to edge sword fighting there?

I wasn't responding to Earl-san as a koryu exponent, but was relating my observation from a koryu style during a seminar given by it's headmaster here a month ago. Granted, you never know that anyone is going to show you the applied principles of their waza, but I think the other attendee's at the seminar would agree that Kuroda Sensei was extremely forthcoming regarding his principles, methods and questions asked of him. He in fact listed 6 of his most fundamental (but somewhat complex) principles for those that were there.

It has been my observation that koryu tend to vary greatly on how open they are about their art, and as such must be evaluated case by case.

While I don't claim to have any "formal" training in what some people would consider a koryu, I have been exposed to several koryu "informally" (ie: my name is not registered/recognized at the honbu of the tradition). But since I do not hold license/certification or formal status in these arts I generally avoid mentioning it to avoid misunderstanding.

It is hard to say how forthcoming a headmaster will be with their style. How do you know if/when you <i>know</i> the style? After you take Keppan? After Menkyo Kaiden or equiv? Will you be in the possibly one percent of all students (regardless of rank/license) that the headmaster chooses to pass the crucial teachings too? How much will only be passed to the next Soke in the form of Soden?

Some headmaster's (like Angier Sensei) give their principles rather freely, saying that those that are advanced enough to understand how to apply them may benefit from them while others will not.

In any event, take it for what it's worth, but obviously <b>all</b> opinions are going to be very relative and very subjective considering the above variables.

As far as Shinkendo, you are absolutely correct that it is not (remotely) a koryu. But I was not speaking primarily from my experience from this art. I only brought it up it in relation to Professor Bodiford's mention of training methods that we happen to have in common.

FWIW, Shinkendo is not based on a WWII art. Shinkendo has five balanced areas of study. <u>One</u> of the five is Batto-ho, and the batto-ho waza (in addition to Obata Kaiso's own ideas) was influenced by his study of not only Toyama ryu (of which you refer), but Nakamura ryu, Ioriken Battojutsu and several other batto styles that I can't remember. Some are newer, and some are older. But the Toyama ryu line that we retain only consists of 8 kata, and 8 variations (and 6 kumitachi, which we may or may not drop).

The tachiuchi section of study (waza, tactics and quite a few principles) in particular are heavily influenced by koryu soutai-kata, tactics and principles, and does incorporate edge to edge blocks and armored techniques.

Though technically irrelevant to the focus of this thread, I wanted to post this correction to avoid misunderstandings by others reading. To those unconcerned, sorry for the space.


You also wrote:

"I also seem to remember that Colin Hyakutake made the same point in some previous conversation, stating that, actually, a sword polished so that the edge is not completely smooth, but actually minutely serrated, actually cuts better than one with the "razor edge" so prized by modern collectors."

I actually <i>didn't</i> write this, but I did find your reply interesting.


Ask your teacher how he thought the Hartsfield blade cut. Hartsfields blades look like crap and are ground out like crow bars, but [Hartsfield] uses a superior air hardening steel (better than any traditional blade) that cuts agressively. He also uses a process to form an edge that works well. I use it on kukris and bowies for a combination of impact and cutting performance.

That won't be necessary - he has demonstrated the cutting performance in front of me numerous times, and I've also used his Hartsfield on several occaisons to cut mats and bamboo.

It cuts like crazy! A blade that cuts that easily could make the user lazy pretty quickly, and as such I prefer a more standard shinken for myself.


In closing I wish to mention the comments made about dulling edges in sand or what have you.

I <i>did</i> write this part (not Earl-san), and agree with your comments here (I think).

Just wanted to clarify a few points,




[Edited by Nathan Scott on 01-22-2001 at 04:29 PM]

[hyaku]

I don't really know much about actually taking the edge off blades for use.

It is my understanding that when you make a blade it is polished to requirements. A blade used specifically for cutting and not a court sword is at maximum Han-togi (half polish). All my blades are Han-togi and are quite a reasonable finish. These can be seen here with others of the same finish.

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/Nkage2.html

There are lots of comments on what happens if the blade is chipped or bent? Most of the blades used by a well known and experienced swordsmith I know never get as far as the polisher. You can still see the filemarks and they cut “very” well. He and his dojo cut “daily” This serves the dual purpose of them learning to cut well and his constant efforts to make better quality cutting weapons. Damage can still be polished out and bends can be taken out too if there is “one” bend.

It should be said that he is also commissioned to make and reproduced replicas of blades for museums that have deteriorated over the years.

I think that we can assume that this used to be the procedure when weapons were needed in quantity.

To take the edge off an already highly polished blade renders it useless in the respect that you can’t add back the metal.

Hyakutake Colin



[Edited by hyaku on 01-23-2001 at 02:40 AM]

[Johan]

In TSKSR kenjutsukata you often see edge to edge contact and as I have been told one reason is that it is not only exercise in swordmanship but also some form of "combat workout". In this kata all you have to do is to change the maai, then you do not block, but instead cut his arm, neck etc. And when you block you would want to turn your sword and use the mune. Another method is to use the side of your sword in contact with the opponents swordside and move his sword out of direction.

[gmellis]

While Earl's questions seem to have been answered to his satisfaction, I thought I would pine in anyway. In my sensei's school, one would never think of blocking with the back of the sword, for the very good reasons already given about the structure and crafting of the sword (the soft mune, etc.). In fact, it irks him to watch jidai-geki (for those of you that have watched certain jidai geki, you probably know the ones I am referring to) where the heros only use the mune to block head-on attacks and strike the oppoent. In fact, he says that even striking the collar bone with the back of the sword can potential bend the blade, which shows how truly weak the Japanese sword is on it's backside. In the koryu I practice (and I imagine it shares many similarities with other ryu in this respect), the aim is to NOT HAVE TO clash swords, but to get in and strike the soft targets of the opponent. The sword-clashing almost always represents something else other than banging the cutting edges head on, as the samurai probably were not fighting out in fields so that they could make sparks for their camp fires. Pushing the opponents sword to the side with the side of ones own sword is recommended only when the two swordsmen are face to face in the standard kamae with their swords already touching, since the light amount of pressure needed to push it aside to create a opening is minimal. Hope this helps. 87th Grandmaster Gregory Ellis of WANKERU Ryu Couch Potato Jutsu

[cgamel]

I attended an Iaido seminar this last weekend conducted by Sensei Glen Weber. During one session we discussing and practiced various aspects of Kenjitsu. When working blocks, we were repeatedly told to block edge-to-edge. For explanation, Glen informed us that he had once asked his sensei why one should block edge-to-edge. After all, the contact can quickly damage a valuable sword. His sensei agreed that not using the edge will keep the sword in better condition, but that will be a mute point since you will be dead! A katana is strongest when taking impact on the edge, and weakest when taking it from the side. This can easily be demonstrated by Jodo practitioners who regularly break blades by striking them on the side.
While I am certain there are exceptions (I do not practice kenjitsu), I believe that in most cases where blocks are made non edge-to-edge, it is a modern adaptation that has been made to preserve valuable swords, not surviving a life and death encounter.

[Mekugi]

I would like to add, in my infinite wisdom (stop laughing) that if it saves your butt, ruins your sword, but "kills" the bad guy- it sounds perfectly legit to me.

I am no expert on this (like you couldn't tell), but clashing edges seems like a good way to ruin a sword. However, being a giant coward, I would not be worrying about my edge. I would break my blade in half to stop the other guy from doing me in.

In my limited exposure to "sword traditions", it seems there is a great deal of variation on parrying within the kata. Sometimes it seems the edge is easier to take, at other times the side of the blade. You may cut through the attack, while the sword slides down the enemies- those are the breaks (hehee).


Anyway, in peroration...

Crap...I dunno. If our man Dr. Friday has any input I would dearly wish he would enter it now and make me look like a complete arse...(well, more of one than I am making of myself already).

Always,

-Russ

[pgsmith]

So Russ,
Have you been ruminating upon that answer for the two years that this thread lay dormant and seemingly dead?

:)

[Aaron Sher]

I practice kenjutsu, and my sensei has taught me to block almost edge-to-edge, but not quite. The idea is to catch the opponent's edge on the side of the bevel of your edge. If you do this right (and it's touchy), their blade will slide right off yours with no trouble. If you do it wrong, the blades will notch each other and stick, which is a Bad Thing (TM) for the defender.

[Mekugi]

Sorta..

I just found the thread, so my answer is "yeah prolly huh!"

I take almost as long in the line at McDonalds choosing which shake I want...hmm...chocolate or vanilla. Vanilla or Chocolate. (This could take a while).

-Russ



Originally posted by pgsmith
So Russ,
Have you been ruminating upon that answer for the two years that this thread lay dormant and seemingly dead?

:)

[pgsmith]

Not one of those!
My youngest is like that! Everyone else is done eating by the time he finally decides what he wants. :)

Oops, enough thread hijacking, back to the topic already in progress ...

[gmellis]

Holy Feckin Bejeesus, Laddie!!! Who crept into the cemetery, dug up the stale dirt and hauled this stone-cold, bone-dry corpse of a thread onto the examination table!!!!!!????? Now, where the hell was I in 2001? God I feel old now. I'm gonna go back to my hibernation and wait for the next "Reply to post" notification to be sent in the mail in 2007. <Mumbling to self and scratching !!! on way back to bed>