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Bambi
1st June 2000, 06:07
Thaks for the info guys! Jeff, what is DMSO, a chemical?? I never payed much attention in chemistry class...

Unfortunately round my neck of the woods muggings with syringes are quite common(the nastiest incident I heard of was a bus driver who was stabbed in the eye with one). One reason is that unlike a knife, an addict is less likely to be arrested if found with a syringe on their person. Another is the huge fear factor that is associated with syringes and AIDS.

On a footnote: The Irish Government, distributes needles to drug addicts regardless of whether or not they have a violent criminal history but outlawed the sale of live "Samurai swords" even to qualified martial artist's. Logical Huh?.

Oisin O Ceallaigh

Bambi
1st June 2000, 13:57
Heres a subject I haven't seen discussed much anywhere... Issues around defence against a hypodermic syringe. As someone with a massive phobia about needles http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif I've a few topic starters..

A) How likely is a hypo to pierce heavy clothing?

B) If punctured is there any chance of getting a hypo out before the plunger is depressed?? Will it make a difference?

C) What are the consequences of being injected with the various fluids that miscreants like to fill needles with? (effects of hiv infected blood is a given I guess) ie diesel, bleach etc

It seems to me the usual advice about bladed weapons of "If you gotta get cut get cut somewhere non vital" goes out the window when you're faced with a needle. It does'nt matter where it pierces .... the damage has been done.

Any comments??

Oisin O Ceallaigh




[This message has been edited by Bambi (edited 06-01-2000).]

Jeff Cook
1st June 2000, 16:59
Oisin,

Great question!

My advice: treat all hypodermic syringes like deadly weapons.

Here's another one for ya: how about a squirt gun with DMSO mixed with a poison?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Joe Long
1st June 2000, 17:21
This is quite sick, and unfortunately entirely appropriate. (And I hate needles too - my drill sergeant called me "Caspar" for days after I went white (well, "whiter") getting some blood drawn by hamhanded Army medics...)
Among the effects of injections: one of the worst things you can get injected with is - nothing; or, actually, air; an air bubble in your blood system can cause death in seconds.
Perhaps the effectiveness of such an attack mode could be compared to poisonous snake bites (which are, after all, injections); thus the effects would be faster depending on the location of the injection (and the type of toxin, blood-, neuro-, or what-have-you)and might or might not be slowed or stopped by a tourniquet (and it might or might not be worth it considering the effects of tourniquets!)
But if it was a really good attack mode we'd likely see more OF it, since hypodermics are not that uncommon (even given away by governments to addicts, in some cases...)

Bob Steinkraus
1st June 2000, 19:48
If anyone cares, DMSO is di-methyl sulfoxide. It is an industrial solvent which penetrates skin on contact and carries with it many other kinds of chemicals which may have been dissolved in it.

It had a fad a few years ago as a cure-all. Its only legitimate medical use is in the treatment of interstitial cystitis, a bladder disease. Its other major effect is extreme bad breath in those who have it in their systems.

I believe the post mentioning a squirt gun with DMSO and poison had it in mind that the DMSO would cause the poison to penetrate the skin and kill the victim. This might actually work, depending on the poison.

It is not as easy to inject someone as it may seem. Many substances need to be injected directly into the bloodstream to be effective, and it is no walk in the park to inject someone who does not wish to be injected. Ask any pediatrician.

If it is any comfort, AIDS transmission by needle stick is not particularly common, although it does occur. Diesel and bleach would not concern me. These are irritants, and the chance of a large enough dose to kill me thru injection are not high. Of course, no matter what, I am not going to die or be disabled for an indeterminate period after being injected, and I don't like shots, so whoever tries to threaten me with a needle has best be prepared to deal with the consequences after I become irritated.

Overall, I think I would rather be threatened with a needle than a gun or knife. I expect anyone who would go to the trouble of obtaining HIV positive blood or fluids and putting it into a syringe is probably devious enough to sneak up on me and count on injecting me before I realize what is happening. It is not much of a robbery weapon.

Boy, what some people don't think of when they turn their minds to crime.

Regards,
Bob Steinkraus

Jeff Cook
1st June 2000, 20:24
Joe,

Being a former hamhanded Army medic (great label, generally speaking - unfortunately!) I can say that it is extremely difficult to kill someone by injecting air into them. Not only does it have to be a considerable amount of air to cause harm, but it has to go directly into a vein, and as you know from your Army experience, hitting a vein is very difficult even when it involves a trained medical person and a willing pincushion.

Oisin,

DMSO is an industrial solvent also used in human and veterinary medicine, topically applied to ease the pain of sore muscles (feels like BenGay and other more-common products). The interesting thing about DMSO is that anything that is dissolved in it will be readily absorbed through the skin directly into the blood stream.

Lots of potential for nastiness.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Brent Easton
8th June 2000, 05:21
Oisin,

Almost all hypodermic needles handed out by the government are going to be of small diameter. They are not going to be large like the syringes used on animals.

A heavy leather jacket will deflect a small syringe to a degree. However, if that is a common "weapon" being used in Ireland, I would brush up on your knife and club defenses. My personal favorite would be a shuto or osae followed with a ippon or yonhon nukite to soft tissue, then finish as desired or rapidly depart the area.

But remember, although it is medically possible to contact a disease from a syringe, first there must be infected bodily fluids (live viruses or bacteria) in the syringe and the infected fluid must come in contact with your blood or tissue below the skin. (Your skin is the natural protection from those types of diseases.)

Having had people try to stab me and once succeed...I prefer the idiot with the syringe. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif

Brent Easton



[This message has been edited by Brent Easton (edited 06-07-2000).]

Brent Easton
10th June 2000, 06:57
Sorry I had to log on under my husbands name, (must have to re-register since the crash.......
From: Tonya

Thank You Bob and Jeff! You saved me alot of typing. I also am in the medical field and completely agree with you.
I'd like t add that in addition to what was previously stated, re: if someone is trying to inject you with an infectious disease, they would probably be sneaky about it and get you from behind or when you were VERY unsuspecting. However...... in the limited martial arts training I have had, The technichs I was taught as a white belt would be enough to deflect someone with a syringe effectively. ( It would also piss me off enough to decide that was an opportune time to practice my Wazas!)

Tonya Easton

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10th June 2000, 17:10
Just when I thought I had put most of fears behind me, you had to bring this one up.

Wasn't there a series of incidents in New York a few years ago where some nut was poking women on the street with needles? Apparently, he would just walk up to his victims and jab them, usually in the breasts. I don't think anyone was killed, but many were subjected to a painful experience. Did they ever catch this guy or did he fade away?

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Don Cunningham

Aaron L. Seay
15th June 2000, 01:31
Being a former ham-handed Navy Corpsman, I agree with the previous posts about the dangerousness of being attacked with a syringe. To inject an embolism of air into someone would be incredibly unlikely. In fact, to inject anything would be difficult...I mean, just stabbing with the needle might be easy, but then actually p l u n g i n g it in might take another second (I'm sure I wouldn't sit still long enough to allow that, I'd be all over the place).

As far as HIV goes, it is possible to get infected from needle sticks, happens to nurses occasionally. But there are treatments available now for possible HIV contamination that claim to neutralize the risk if given within the first few hours of the suspected contamination.

More importantly, HIV despite its lethality in vitro, is quite delicate out in the open. Nurses are usually infected by poking themselves trying to recap a needle that was just a second ago inside an infected patient. Someone just walking around the city with a needle would probably not have any live viruses hanging around on it. But, I suppose it's possible.

As far as deadly chemicals go...yikes! They just better hope their needle is bigger than my knife!

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Aaron L. Seay