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Joseph Svinth
19th January 2001, 07:10
According to http://judoinfo.com/announce.htm , judo is the second most popular sport in the world, after soccer. This datum has been picked up widely in the US judo press. However, according to the IJF, in 1997 there were 2.2 million judoka worldwide, with the most color belts in Europe and the most black belts in Asia. http://www.ijf.org/congress/cg97-25.html Assuming the latter numbers to be reasonably accurate, then judo is more accurately described as the second most popular combative sport in the Olympics (ahead of freestyle, boxing, Greco-Roman, and fencing, and behind TKD) than a serious rival to volleyball, basketball, and jogging, with their hundreds of millions of participants.

The IJF's constant whining about money seems somewhat overstated, too. After all, in 1997 it claimed US $1.5 million in the bank, and reported Hyundai giving it $3.1 million. Must be rough, having $1.5 million in the bank and a million a year in income, and feeling poor. (Once again, see http://www.ijf.org/congress/cg97-25.html .)

Ben Reinhardt
19th January 2001, 19:55
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
According to http://judoinfo.com/announce.htm , judo is the second most popular sport in the world, after soccer. This datum has been picked up widely in the US judo press. However, according to the IJF, in 1997 there were 2.2 million judoka worldwide, with the most color belts in Europe and the most black belts in Asia. http://www.ijf.org/congress/cg97-25.html Assuming the latter numbers to be reasonably accurate, then judo is more accurately described as the second most popular combative sport in the Olympics (ahead of freestyle, boxing, Greco-Roman, and fencing, and behind TKD) than a serious rival to volleyball, basketball, and jogging, with their hundreds of millions of participants.

The IJF's constant whining about money seems somewhat overstated, too. After all, in 1997 it claimed US $1.5 million in the bank, and reported Hyundai giving it $3.1 million. Must be rough, having $1.5 million in the bank and a million a year in income, and feeling poor. (Once again, see http://www.ijf.org/congress/cg97-25.html .)


I think it depends on how you define popularity...I think that more countries send Judo teams to the Olympics other than maybe track and field and/or soccer. I've heard the quotes you give above as well, but have not ever seen exactly what they mean by "most popular". Judo IS immensely popular worldwide, much more so than in the USA.

As to the IJF whining about not having enough money, compare it to say track and field NGBs, or Football (soccer) NGBs around the world. USA Judo, for example, could do well on $1 mm per year, if they could get it (income, not money in the bank used as principle...the Olympic Money USA Judo got in 1984). In that context I can see why the IJF would want/need more than $1mm/year income. If the "money in the bank" is used to generate the income (as investmentincome), then they can't really touch that or suffer a loss in income. USA Judo is in the same boat.

Why not come up with some stats on how much money other NGBs and Internatinal sports orgs come up with in terms of income per year, then compare that to the IJF income ? Major sport vs. major sport, and see where the IJF ranks.

Regards,

Ben Reinhardt

Joseph Svinth
21st January 2001, 10:01
For funding from television advertising, the IJF ranks in the bottom 25%, down with archery and riflery. The reason is that it doesn't generate much ad revenue on US or Canadian TV, which is where the megabucks come from. (Yes, judo generates big bucks in Japan, Korea, France, Germany, and Cuba, but TV megabucks are still North American.)

Now, that said, Nicholas Gill got good coverage on CBC. Why? Well, perhaps because he made it to the finals? Could be. Remember, Americans and Canadians have enough winners that their cameras don't have to follow losers, and in a sport where Cuba is in the top four, the USA is #11, and Canada is #20, well, let's shift that camera to track, and see if Marion Jones can set a new world's record.

MarkF
22nd January 2001, 08:50
Instead of whining about the IJF's whining, why not ask? I've had good responses from them, and they did take my suggestion to post a link, or put up a page explaining how to watch a judo match.

I thought the response from YS Park's office was similar to what I get sometimes from the Kodokan, thanking me for the suggestion, but the day after I receive the answer that they would think about it, there was a link, even if it was only to the USJI (US Judo) site explaining that very thing.

Why not just ask how they came to that conclusion and on what it is based? The numbers certainly aren't that of baseball, but the basis for the claim may have possibilities.

Since I took it to mean all ways of participation, countries with more partcipants not counted (such as Mexico. There are far more "participants" than it would seem as many dojo are in very poor areas, with only donations of dogi and mats [both used] coming from Japan itself).

The numbers still may not add up, but it may get one a little closer.

There may only be just over two million judoka world-wide, but a count of judoka may not be what counts. How does one count soccer popularity, by the numbers of estimated players, or the number of countries in which it is played, or is it advertising, fans, tee-shirts, shoes?

The last figure I saw on Japan's population who were doing any martial art was put at 1.1 percent, so I think Ben has something. It may show them to be outright liars, but at least ask what data is used. Perhaps it is in the sheer number of tournaments.

Mark

Ben Reinhardt
22nd January 2001, 14:45
Originally posted by MarkF
Instead of whining about the IJF's whining, why not ask? I've had good responses from them, and they did take my suggestion to post a link, or put up a page explaining how to watch a judo match.

I thought the response from YS Park's office was similar to what I get sometimes from the Kodokan, thanking me for the suggestion, but the day after I receive the answer that they would think about it, there was a link, even if it was only to the USJI (US Judo) site explaining that very thing.

Why not just ask how they came to that conclusion and on what it is based? The numbers certainly aren't that of baseball, but the basis for the claim may have possibilities.

Since I took it to mean all ways of participation, countries with more partcipants not counted (such as Mexico. There are far more "participants" than it would seem as many dojo are in very poor areas, with only donations of dogi and mats [both used] coming from Japan itself).

The numbers still may not add up, but it may get one a little closer.

There may only be just over two million judoka world-wide, but a count of judoka may not be what counts. How does one count soccer popularity, by the numbers of estimated players, or the number of countries in which it is played, or is it advertising, fans, tee-shirts, shoes?

The last figure I saw on Japan's population who were doing any martial art was put at 1.1 percent, so I think Ben has something. It may show them to be outright liars, but at least ask what data is used. Perhaps it is in the sheer number of tournaments.

Mark



France has around 600,000 registered judoka. I have been told that over a million do Judo in France alone, this by someone fairly high up in the heiriarchy of French Judo. So, France can document at least 600k...I think that the IJF probably only counted members registered with the various NGBs around the world.

FYI, there are more registered judoka in Paris, France, than in the whole of the USA.

Ben Reinhardt
+++++++++++++++++++

Ben Reinhardt
22nd January 2001, 14:49
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
For funding from television advertising, the IJF ranks in the bottom 25%, down with archery and riflery. The reason is that it doesn't generate much ad revenue on US or Canadian TV, which is where the megabucks come from. (Yes, judo generates big bucks in Japan, Korea, France, Germany, and Cuba, but TV megabucks are still North American.)

Now, that said, Nicholas Gill got good coverage on CBC. Why? Well, perhaps because he made it to the finals? Could be. Remember, Americans and Canadians have enough winners that their cameras don't have to follow losers, and in a sport where Cuba is in the top four, the USA is #11, and Canada is #20, well, let's shift that camera to track, and see if Marion Jones can set a new world's record.



They showed Nicolas Gill's matches up to the finals too. No doubt that he was a contender all along was helpful, plus, the Canadian NGB gets government funding and may have more influence with the CBC (is CBC government owned?).

Jimmy Pedro was told that only if he competed in finals would he get any TV coverage of his matches. Instead, I got to watch rowing.

Ben Reinhardt

Joseph Svinth
22nd January 2001, 16:58
Regarding the whining, I have started inquiries through semi-official channels, and to date all I have gotten back is "We'll get back to you on that."

Meanwhile, let's see what some online quantification provides. Several sites suggest that tennis is the most popular women's sport worldwide. And, as women comprise 55% of the world's participants in sport, I assume we factor females into all calculations of relative popularity. We do, don't we? If not, why not? So, on this subject, in the USA alone one recent survey estimated that 5 million people play tennis 21 or more times per year. This outnumbers worldwide judoka 2-1.

In Australia, swimming and basketball are the most popular sports, followed by soccer. (Boys play more soccer than girls, but girls play basketball.) Aerobics has 1.4 million Australian participants, which is a staggering number compared to judoka worldwide. http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/ABS%40.nsf/94713ad445ff1425ca25682000192af2/48d73acf3c9075bbca2568a900154b91!OpenDocument

In Japan, judo doesn't even make the top ten. Of course, the Japanese standards are high -- one has to participate in the sport at least once per year. And if we exclude watching tournaments as participating in the sport, then I suspect some, perhaps most, IJF officials don't meet that rigorous standard. jin/jcic.or/jp/stat/index.html ; go to "Leisure"

Financially, the sport market is enormous -- licensed products were worth about $73 billion in 1997. http://www.sgma.com/research/1998_research/industry/98_licensed_report.html . Obviously the few millions made by IJF is inconsequential in this greater scheme of things. And that, I suggest, is the real rub.

BTW, the same site listed above says that 5.8 million US youths aged 6-17 played basketball 52 days or more during 1996. Okay, that's only the USA, but I assume somebody in Lithuania and Italy plays basketball, too, and even if they don't, the US alone still provides twice as many schoolchildren doing basketball as people of all ages do judo worldwide.

And, as IJF wants that TV and licensing $$, note this advice (same site) for colleges interested in increasing revenue: "Athletic success continues to be the best ticket to major sales increases in a maturing collegiate market. Advancing to the Final Four, gaining a major bowl game invitation or capturing a share of a national championship are the best defenses against the increased competition from the branded apparel manufacturers and Seventh Avenue brands, like Tommy Hilfiger... Swings of 30% in either direction are not uncommon among strong athletic programs, based solely on the 'on the field' performance."

In Italy, the number one sport is soccer, number two is basketball.

In Japan, a school child asked to name the most popular sports says "Baseball, soccer, and sumo." http://www.tcp-ip.or.jp/~ainuzuka/project2.htm

***

Bottom line? To make more money, put Vince McMahon Jr. in charge of the IJF. After all, the IJF says that "According to the IJF regulations, it is 'ok' for judo tournaments to offer prize money," and adds that judo is the third most viewed sport on French TV ( http://www.ijf.org/whatnew/latenews/wn-bb-166.html ) Increased North American market is the key, says President Park, so read between the lines: In North America #1 is football, #2 is auto racing, and #3 is professional wrestling...

Ben Reinhardt
22nd January 2001, 17:28
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
Regarding the whining, I have started inquiries through semi-official channels, and to date all I have gotten back is "We'll get back to you on that."


Bottom line? To make more money, put Vince McMahon Jr. in charge of the IJF. After all, the IJF says that "According to the IJF regulations, it is 'ok' for judo tournaments to offer prize money," and adds that judo is the third most viewed sport on French TV ( http://www.ijf.org/whatnew/latenews/wn-bb-166.html ) Increased North American market is the key, says President Park, so read between the lines: In North America #1 is football, #2 is auto racing, and #3 is professional wrestling...



++++++Ben Reinhardt+++++
The New York Open this year is offering $1000 for first place.

This announcement brought a lot of protest over on Judo-L. Apparently many US Judoka at least, think that offering prize money will lead to Judo becoming something like the WWF or worse...attract athletes from other combative sports that are not really Judoka. Besides the fact that many think that Kano Sensei would roll over in his grave at the thought of prize money for Judo.

Ben Reinhardt
+++++++++++++++

MarkF
23rd January 2001, 07:36
Jim Pedro got to the finals, all right. The finals of the repechages where he was thrown for ippon with kata guruma. I noticed in some video of Birmingham (we do with what we get:D ) with Pedro in the losers' rounds there. Picture perfect tai otoshi, but with his feelings hurt, he failed to win the match at that moment.

The promise has always been there. Win the gold, we will cover it, and since the results were known for about thirty-six hours before it got to the states (unless you had CBC), no coverage. Jim looked nice in that interview last summer in which he said, in answer to a question: "Well, I've got to be considered the favorite."

Well, I hope he and Jason do better with the magazine.

Hehe

Sure there are more judo players in France than the US. The "team (someone has got to explain the team concept one of these days)" from the US went there and trains there. As long as it remains a "priviledge" just to make the team, the US will continue to lose.
****
I put out a couple of friendly baited hooks myself in asking about the figures of the IJF, so I hope they are as forthcoming about this as they were with the "teaching to watch link." This may be a little more difficult, though.:)

Mark

MarkF
23rd January 2001, 07:53
Professional judoka? Say it ain't so, Gene. Pro judo was around before most of us were, but that doesn't mean much, as Yukio Tani, Masahiko Kimura, "Judo Gene" LeBell, and a host of others have been there. Nothing so bad as it is up front. I forgot Conde Koma (Maeda), Helio Gracie, and a host of others I'm too lazy to look up right now.

I knew a bunch of wrestlers in Los Angeles who were pro rasslers and darn good judoka, but they did manage to keep it separate most of the time. These guys were part timers, though and never did, for the most part, become known in wrestling.

There is a judoka in Japan now who went by the name of "Baba." He is military in Japan, and tries to make it to Mexico with used judogi for the people there who can't afford then, but this wasn't "Giant Baba," but he must be a nice guy, even if his hero is Baba. Amazing how they have the same name.:)

Mark

Ben Reinhardt
23rd January 2001, 15:33
Originally posted by MarkF
Jim Pedro got to the finals, all right. The finals of the repechages where he was thrown for ippon with kata guruma. I noticed in some video of Birmingham (we do with what we get:D ) with Pedro in the losers' rounds there. Picture perfect tai otoshi, but with his feelings hurt, he failed to win the match at that moment.

+++++++++Ben Reinhardt+++
Mark, what are you talking about ? Jimmy Pedro was world champion in 1999. He was never in the repachage in Birmingham. He dominated all of his matches, and won all but the last one by ippon...had the last guy pinned (Russian, who had tossed all his opponents for ippon) , and basically let him tie him up as the time ran out. I think you must have confused him with someone else...

Jimmy had a bad day in the Olympics. He was off for some reason. His last match was against someone he had beaten by ippon several times before...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The promise has always been there. Win the gold, we will cover it, and since the results were known for about thirty-six hours before it got to the states (unless you had CBC), no coverage. Jim looked nice in that interview last summer in which he said, in answer to a question: "Well, I've got to be considered the favorite."

Well, I hope he and Jason do better with the magazine.

Hehe

++++++++++Ben++++
Are moderators supposed to troll, Mark ? That looks to me like what you are doing. I get the impression that you might think it's kind of funny that Pedro lost. And in fact, he WAS considered to be the favorite...it's normal, he was world champion in 1999 just few months before the Olympics. Somehow I doubt you really care whether or not either Jimmy or Jason are succesful with Real Judo...
+++++++++++++++++++++

Sure there are more judo players in France than the US. The "team (someone has got to explain the team concept one of these days)" from the US went there and trains there. As long as it remains a "priviledge" just to make the team, the US will continue to lose.
****

++++++++Ben R.++++++++++
The US Team went to a lot of places to train, on different tours. They went to various places in Europe, and to Japan as well. Also, it's not a priviledge to make the US Olympic team, whatever you meant by that remark. They all earned it by being the best in the USA, and then qualifiying by winning/placing in high level foreign competitions. The way it works, there are no guaranteed slots anymore. Each person from the Pan American Judo Union competes for a LIMITED number of slots. The PJU has just so many positions available...the USA sent a FULL team of olympians, both men and women, because they qualified due to their hard work and dedication. NOT privilege.
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If I seem a bit sensitive on this matter, consider that I know several of the Olympians, and have seen them come up over the years. Jimmy Pedro is a fine young man, not given to bragging. He is also an excellent Judo technician, and now that he has retired, will continue to stay active in judo, teaching, coaching and promoting Judo. That's what we need...people like you and Jimmy Pedro, and others, who are dedicated to Judo. Now that's team work.
+++++++++++++++++



Mark

MarkF
24th January 2001, 09:09
Ben,
Stop! You are reading way too much into this. Pedro just happened to be there. I know of his family, father, mother, and sister; all judoka (except that his sister didn't stay). This does not have to be anything but what it is, a message board with discussion.

I apologize for hurting your feelings. You seem to take a lot of it personally, and that wasn't what I expected from you. If you really have a complaint, you can send me a private message, an email, or a direct email, as it is in my profile.

If mentioning the two times Pedro looked bad means anything, it came from the horses mouth. Also, if you would have done just a bit of searching the threads, I've also complimented him many times. He admits he doesn't try as hard when in the loser's rounds, and he did look bad getting thrown with kata guruma.

Please. If you have a problem, email me.

If you don't find it humorous, or find it in bad taste, ignore it.







[Edited by MarkF on 01-24-2001 at 03:20 AM]

Ben Reinhardt
24th January 2001, 20:33
Originally posted by MarkF
Ben,
Stop! You are reading way too much into this. Pedro just happened to be there. I know of his family, father, mother, and sister; all judoka (except that his sister didn't stay). This does not have to be anything but what it is, a message board with discussion.

+++++++Ben Reinhardt++++++++
OK !
++++++++++++++=

I apologize for hurting your feelings. You seem to take a lot of it personally, and that wasn't what I expected from you. If you really have a complaint, you can send me a private message, an email, or a direct email, as it is in my profile.

++++++++=Ben R.+++++++++
I wouldn't say my feelings were hurt. I was borderline PO'ed but realized I might be reading a bit too much into your post. In any case, not a problem for me now.
++++++++++++++=

If mentioning the two times Pedro looked bad means anything, it came from the horses mouth. Also, if you would have done just a bit of searching the threads, I've also complimented him many times. He admits he doesn't try as hard when in the loser's rounds, and he did look bad getting thrown with kata guruma.

++++++++++++=Ben R.++++++++
Yep, he didn't look very good the whole day at the Olympics, not up to form. That's OK, I just didn't get the humor in what you were writing.
++++++++++++++++++++=

Please. If you have a problem, email me.

If you don't find it humorous, or find it in bad taste, ignore it.







[Edited by MarkF on 01-24-2001 at 03:20 AM]