View Full Version : The Book of Five Rings - What did you learn?
Eugene
14th June 2008, 17:10
I have not read the book yet, but for those who have read Musashi's The Book of Five Rings, I would like to get some feedback from you. In terms of facing and overcoming an opponent(s) in a sword duel, what would be the 3 most important thing that Musashi points out?
Thanks for your responses.
socho
14th June 2008, 22:30
you're asking strangers to put together a cheatsheet on Musashi? :)
I would suggest training first, then reading within the context of your training, then comparative philosophy. Good luck.
Dave
Usagi
14th June 2008, 23:06
When you get to read it, keep in mind that the technical part is about a koryu style that you're likely to see only on youtube. It doesn't necessarily relates to Kendo, Ninjutsu or Aikiken.
For some insights about it...
http://www.hyoho.com/hyoho7.html
Ken-Hawaii
14th June 2008, 23:27
Eugene, it doesn't all matter what I learned, it's what you will learn if you decide to read the treatise.
And what Musashi wrote about was not intended to advise on duels, but rather how to lead your life.
Eugene
15th June 2008, 03:30
Interesting responses. I thought people would be happy to share what they gained from the book. I also belong to a sport bike forum, and people who ride sport bikes are very willing to share insights about riding skills.;)
As you can tell from the number of posts I have made, I am not familiar with martial arts forums. I must say, it's a different world. In any case, thanks for taking the time to hammer down few words.:)
Brian Owens
15th June 2008, 07:39
Interesting responses. I thought people would be happy to share what they gained from the book. I also belong to a sport bike forum, and people who ride sport bikes are very willing to share insights about riding skills.;)
I am a member of BurgmanUSA.com, a forum devoted to riders of Suzuki's megascooters. I probably have made a few thousand posts there over the years.
I have considerably more posts here, and in my experience, the senior members here are happy to share their insights and experiences when it would be helpful to others to do so; but we're also going to be upfront when it's not going to be helpful to directly answer questions.
Gorin no Sho has seen a lot of popularity in the West in recent years, and has been translated both reasonably well (by William Scott Wilson, for example) and very badly. Its "lessons" have been applied to everything from martial arts to big business.
I have to say that what one gets from reading it (or any other book, for that matter) depends greatly on what one's life position is when opening it. Everything you read will be colored by the filters of your experience.
So, go ahead and read it (stay away from "The Karate Master's Book of Five Rings," "The Burger Flippers Book of Five Rings," "The Book of Five Rings: A Libertarian Choice," or anything similar; just get Wilson's straight forward translation), but be prepared for it not to be what you expected.
Then, in a few months or years, read it again, and be prepared to see it in a completely different light.
Above all, take to heart what our Senior Moderator, Hyaku, has said on his Hyoho.com site: "By all means it's wonderful to read Musashi. But at the same time don't take what he writes too literally in application to other Budo."
HTH.
Eugene
15th June 2008, 17:38
Thanks Brian for the reference. That will save me a lot of headache when I do get the book. The quote from Hyaku is interesting because I thought the main thrust of the book would be about facing an opponent. Well, I do need to read the book for myself, but if it isn't about dueling tactics, I would not be as motivated to read the book. My main interest in Musashi's book was to get into the mind of a person who has actually faced a live blade in a dueling situation. That state of mind is something I do not think any of us has much experience with. It was really a pychological curiosity on my part.
DDATFUS
15th June 2008, 18:52
if it isn't about dueling tactics, I would not be as motivated to read the book. My main interest in Musashi's book was to get into the mind of a person who has actually faced a live blade in a dueling situation. That state of mind is something I do not think any of us has much experience with. It was really a pychological curiosity on my part.
Musashi's book is on dueling tactics... and then again, it isn't. It's one of those cases where really all you can do is read it for yourself, and then train, and then train some more and see where it takes you.
If you want to read about the psychological state of mind required for combat, I suggest you read Dr. David Hall's article in the first volume of Diane Skoss's Koryu Bujutsu series. Dr. Hall is the former editor of the International Hoplology Society's journal and has done a good bit of academic research into the psychological stresses of combat and how the traditional swords arts of Japan conditioned their students to deal with these stresses. Some of the works that Dr. Hall cites in his article might be of interest to you; they include:
Davis, S.W. 1956. "Stress in Combat." Scientific American 194, no. 3.
Eibl-Eibesfeldt, I. 1979. The Biology of Peace and War. New York: Viking Press.
Hamilton, L. 1989. "Fight, Flight, or Freeze: Implications of the Passive Fear Response for Anxiety and Depression." Phobia Practice and Research Journal 2, no. 1:17-27.
I haven't read these, but if you have access to a database that contains some of these articles, you might find them interesting.
I would also recommend visiting the website of the International Hoplological Society and looking at some of their recommended books. There are a few that discuss this issue.
Dean Whittle
15th June 2008, 22:51
Eugene,
You may also consider looking into Dave Grossman's book 'On Combat', an excellent insight into the mindset required for a 'lethal force encounter'.
With respect
Rennis
16th June 2008, 04:24
Eugene,
You may also consider looking into Dave Grossman's book 'On Combat', an excellent insight into the mindset required for a 'lethal force encounter'.
With respect
I haven't read "On Combat" which appears to be fairly new, but I have read Grossman's "On Killing" and many people consider some of the fundamental elements of Grossman's argument that humans are not naturally "wired" to kill each other flawed, although many of the parts about training and psychological conditioning, etc seemed fairly on target. "On Killing" was written about 12 years ago, so possibly some elements of his argument have changed or been refined since then. Again, not a comment on "On Combat" directly since I haven't read it, just pointing out that many people didn't agree with Grossman's ideas put forth in his previous book.
For what it's worth,
Rennis Buchner
Dean Whittle
16th June 2008, 04:32
Rennis,
Thanks for that, it's interesting because I've yet to see any criticism of it ... maybe I'm not reading broadly enough :)
His theory about humans killing humans is complex and includes the concept of 'killing enabling factors' such as victim running away, orders from authority and peer support making it easier to kill another human.
On Combat is much more about developing his 'bullet-proof mind', ie a mindset for combat but he does reference a few things from On Killing.
Anyway both books are both worthwhile reads.
With respect
Rennis
16th June 2008, 04:51
It's been years since I read the book, but as I recall the general gist was that Grossman feels that it is not in humans' natural make up to kill each other and thus various sorts of conditioning must be done to overcome this psychological hurdle (with certain types of killing more difficult than others depending on range, method, etc).
The opposing argument that I have heard from various circles is that rather than humans not being wired to kill each other, we have a few natural psychological "states", one of which is a natural predatory "mindset" (for lack of a different word) in which killing poses little problem. They argue that the conditioning involved is not to overcome a nature aversion to killing each other, but rather the conditioning is needed to enter this naturally preexisting mindset (the "hunter" or "combative" mindset if you will) that otherwise seldom if ever gets tapped into among most people in modern society.
Basically the criticism tends to focus more on his basic premise of human nature, and less on any ideas he has about combative conditioning.
gendzwil
16th June 2008, 16:02
Well, I do need to read the book for myself, but if it isn't about dueling tactics, I would not be as motivated to read the book.The portions of the book that are technical use language that would only be meaningful to someone who has practiced that particular school of swordsmanship. Mostly I find the books' content to be misinterpreted and misunderstood by a large number of young "samurai" wannabes who have never set foot in a dojo but like to argue about it from a misperceived position of authority on the internet.
Eugene
16th June 2008, 17:55
DDATFUS:
Thanks for the info on Dr. Hall's work. My main interest being sword combat, I would be most interested in reading his work on traditional Japanese conditioning for sword arts. As I said, it's really a curiosity on my part. I assure you, I have no desire or intention of ever wanting to face a live blade, but as a sword MA practitioner, I think it would be an added bonus to understand the psychology that's involved. I think having a live blade before you is somewhat different than getting shot at from a distance. Thanks again.
Brian Owens
16th June 2008, 19:13
...as a sword MA practitioner...
Although this site is primarily devoted to Japanese martial arts, we do have members who are practitioners of European and Korean sword arts as well.
I think they would agree with me when I say that you need to find yourself a dojang with a qualified sabum who can teach you the basics in person. Reading books and watching videos can never substitute for personal tutelage; their usefulness comes after you have passed the first level.
Eugene
16th June 2008, 21:45
Thanks for that suggestion Brian, but what does one do if there isn't a dojang near me for the art I want to learn? I'd love to have a HDGD master nearby to ask questions and learn from.:)
I am afraid i might be giving the wrong impression because I am a solo-practioner, but it is not by choice. I believe I have acquired the best possible instructional material given my situation. The manual, written in Korean, is very detailed in every aspect. The instructional video that I use is not the flashy version of HDGD that's meant for advertizement. It is a step by step instructional video with explanation that one would receive if one was in a dojang.
Unless one has examined these instructional materials and the person using it, i do not think it would be possible to accurately evaluate the effectiveness of the instructional materials, or the results it produces. Regardless, I accept the virtue of face-to-face instruction from a master. Thanks again.;)
K. Cantwell
16th June 2008, 23:01
Hello Eugene,
Thanks for that suggestion Brian, but what does one do if there isn't a dojang near me for the art I want to learn? I'd love to have a HDGD master nearby to ask questions and learn from.
I don't think you will like the answer to your question that is likely to appear on this forum: Move or travel.
If you're are serious about getting legitimate training, then you go to the mountain...it doesn't come to you. This is obviously mitigated by several life factors, but it is pretty much the only way to ensure proper training.
You may also have to rethink the art you want to learn if there is legitimate training in another art within workable distance. If you want Katori Shinto-ryu, but can't travel and Shinto Muso-ryu is within striking distance...well, legitimate training is better than none. (Or book/video training.)
I know a few people that relocated from the Southwest to Seattle, for example, solely for training. I'm lucky to have my teachers 2 hrs away. One of my dojomates happened to live literally four blocks from the dojo when he started training. That is like hitting the koryu lottery, but it doesn't happen often. You may have to settle for weekend training once a month or something like that, but getting face-time with a legitimate teacher is the only way to go.
Segueing to:
Unless one has examined these instructional materials and the person using it, i do not think it would be possible to accurately evaluate the effectiveness of the instructional materials, or the results it produces. Regardless, I accept the virtue of face-to-face instruction from a master. Thanks again
I believe there is a sticky in this subforum that speaks to this. Any videotape or other material made by legitimate teachers is pretty much review material for their own students. Trying to actually “learn” this stuff from anything other than mat-time is pretty dicey. You can certainly say, “Well, hey, this is the best that I can do right now given my life situation,” but it is certainly not like being in the dojo. Your video may be better than others, but the difference between learning from a “bad” video and “good” video compared to being on the mat is academic. They both pale.
Hence, the message: Get thee to a teacher.
Hope this helps.
Kevin Cantwell
Eugene
17th June 2008, 03:25
Wow, Kevin, packing up and going to where the dojang is is pretty serious. I guess at this point in my life, I am not serious enough to pack-up. Your response, however, has helped me to appreciate the seriousness of some MA practitioners. If I was single, I may do just what you suggest. For now, I'll just have to settle for something less than best.:(
Brian Owens
17th June 2008, 03:25
Thanks for that suggestion Brian, but what does one do if there isn't a dojang near me for the art I want to learn?
I know of students who have to travel 2 or more hours' drive to study once a week, and I know of others who travel thousands of miles for a yearly seminar, then return home and practice what they learned for a year.
Ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
Kevin nailed it: books and videos are references for students, not self-teaching aids. Doing it backwards means you could be practicing bad habits that you're not even aware of, and as we all know, that which we practice is what we we get "better" at...even if it's wrong.
Anyway...
Send a PM to our member Bruce Sims (member name glad2bhere). He's a Kumdo practitioner (teacher?) and may know of a teacher who's not too far away from you.
Best wishes, and good luck.
Brian Owens
17th June 2008, 06:26
Eugene,
I just noticed that your profile says you're in Buena Park. There's got to be a training opportunity in your area, being that you're in the zone between LA, San Diego, etc.
Here's a contact for you:
World Haidong Gumdo
925 S Catalina St
Los Angeles, CA 90006
(213) 365-2660
HTH.
Duanew
17th June 2008, 11:49
The US Marines, as well as other military organizations, have a "warriors" reading list. On the list are: The Art of War, The Book of Five Rings, Clauswitz (sp) book which I can't remember-I would place On Killing and On Combat on that list also and I beleive they are included.
If you had to make a choice I would suggest On Combat. As far as those who disagree with Grossmans conclusions-and they aren't just his but a list of researchers also-he mentions in his book about those who fall outside the norm-those who enjoy battle. Despite the critics, and you will find those anywhere for any author, the Marshalls research bears him out. Nothing is 100%.
As far as the Book of Five Rings itself-mine is on loan right now so I can't reference it-read it as see how it applies to your life,style,art at your current level. Re-read it in a few years and see if you don't view it differently.
Just finished reading, "John Boyd the Fighter Pilot Who Changed How War Was Fought (not sure on the exact title-I gave it to a friend). He considered The Book of Five Rings the best book on individual combat. Boyd is know for the OODA, Boyd's Cycle, Boyd's Loop concept which he came to after reading all the others.
gendzwil
17th June 2008, 15:50
Eugene,
I just noticed that your profile says you're in Buena Park. There's got to be a training opportunity in your area, being that you're in the zone between LA, San Diego, etc.In fact, he was pointed towards some dojangs here (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=335543&postcount=48) during a similar conversation on KW.
SLeclair
17th June 2008, 18:54
I am afraid i might be giving the wrong impression because I am a solo-practioner, but it is not by choice.
Yes, it absolutely is by choice.
You say yourself you are not serious enough to move to study under a teacher. That is a choice. That you have decided you are not serious enough to wait for proper instruction or just not train, and decided to "self-train" instead is also a choice.
No one is ever forced to "self-train" against their will.
Trevor Johnson
17th June 2008, 19:59
Yes, it absolutely is by choice.
You say yourself you are not serious enough to move to study under a teacher. That is a choice. That you have decided you are not serious enough to wait for proper instruction or just not train, and decided to "self-train" instead is also a choice.
No one is ever forced to "self-train" against their will.
Besides, when you find a legit instructor, you'll spend a LOT of time unlearning the basics that you got from the instructional material. It's no substitute.
I just made sure that my work will take me where there is lots of Koryu =). Plan in advance, and have koryu availibility as a side effect, not a primary goal!
Brian Owens
18th June 2008, 02:26
...Unless one has examined these instructional materials and the person using it, i do not think it would be possible to accurately evaluate the effectiveness of the instructional materials, or the results it produces. ...
I've gotta comment on this.
Unless one has trained under a legitimate instructor, how can one evaluate the instructional materials and the results produced? What is the basis for comparison?
SLeclair
18th June 2008, 14:07
I've gotta comment on this.
Unless one has trained under a legitimate instructor, how can one evaluate the instructional materials and the results produced? What is the basis for comparison?
Oh, it's pretty straightforward actually. From Kendo-World:
Practicing solo does not mean practicing in ignorance. With 3 years of Tae Kwon Do, I understand the subtleties involved in martial arts techniques.
After all, empty-hand, sword, it's all the same.
socho
19th June 2008, 01:56
... After all, empty-hand, sword, it's all the same. You are kidding, I hope.
Dave
fifthchamber
19th June 2008, 04:51
I think that after the;
With 3 years of Tae Kwon Do, I understand the subtleties involved in martial arts techniques.
quote, anything said would be deeply sarcastic..
Quite honestly, I never understood the whole "I have to train solo cause' there's nothing near me" line...I wanted Koryu, but the UK has little and not near me at the time..So I moved...To Tokyo..Perhaps Eugene could work out what he wants and either do it, or not post about it..Finding good instruction is not so hard..
Karasu Maru
19th June 2008, 07:03
My post may cast a chill over this thread….
Today, most history scholars in Japan do not think Musashi as the author of “Gorin no Sho”.
For instance, Yamamoto Hirofumi, Prof. of The Historiographical Institute of Univ. of Tokyo, who is one of the most famous history scholars in Japan insists that “Gorin no Sho” is a fabrication book written by an apprentice of Musashi.
日本史の一級史料 (First class historical materials in Japan)
http://www.amazon.co.jp/s/ref=nb_ss_fg_eng?__mk_ja_JP=%83J%83%5E%83J%83i&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=%93%FA%96%7B%8Ej%82%CC%88%EA%8B%89%8Ej%97%BF
The Historiographical Institute of Univ. of Tokyo
http://www.hi.u-tokyo.ac.jp/index.html
hyaku
28th June 2008, 04:38
Not a book but scrolls. Its fairly easy to check Japanese writing especially as the author did write other work. His will in the form of Dokkodo is here
http://www.hyoho.com/Hyoho6.html
And especially as he wrote Gorin No Sho in Hiragana!
Josh Reyer
28th June 2008, 06:55
Not a book but scrolls. Its fairly easy to check Japanese writing especially as the author did write other work. His will in the form of Dokkodo is here
http://www.hyoho.com/Hyoho6.html
And especially as he wrote Gorin No Sho in Hiragana!
As I understood it, though, the original manuscript of Gorin no Sho was lost, and now all we have are copies. I take it that's wrong?
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