The secret of ki, life, and asian martial arts. [Archive]

brendan V Lanza

23rd June 2008, 01:58

kenkyusha

26th June 2008, 02:05

FWIW- Much of what folks put across as legitimate external expressions of 'qi' are works... of course, there are some extraordinary individuals out there, but be wary of hokum salespeople on your journey.

Be well,
Jigme

MikeWilliams

26th June 2008, 17:12

I still have never imagined doing anything even remotely like what I see here.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KJr2BdUTYkU&feature=related

That's because it's hocum. Parlour tricks performed on extremely suggestible subjects.

That first clip starts off so-so, then descends into farce. Please do not take anything after about the 1:30 point remotely seriously.

khatheCh

26th June 2008, 21:41

Really, it´s not good to take everything seriously... however, I'm sure ki does exist, but it´s not a sepcial area of just a few martial arts.

Everyone has ki, the fact they know how to use it or not depends on them. Martial Arts help to develop this ability. Personally, I've done a few things and actually works, but to believe or nor depends on you. You'd only believe it if you actually see it -and do it.

To use ki doesn't requires a special meditation, I think. The first time it happened to me I was only playing basketball, but it happens I was too excited and adrenalin was filling me up. I guess that helps too, so...

...throwing a man with a not strong touch is possible through ki. But I´ve never seen of doing it without physical contact. Now, that's something I can believe only doing it myself after seeing it clearly.

---

Regards,
Katerina Chacoff.

Jitsumania

26th June 2008, 22:04

I've been a practitioner of martial arts all my life, right now it's predominantly karate. I have had some really great experiences with my ki (chi or Qi are other spellings of this). I have been searching online and have found that the chinese are usually considered the best with their chi, through qi gong and tai chi. I found some things that are enough to change a man's religious beliefs. There are people who can throw you with their ki without even touching you! I was unaware of this until this point in my life. Now I want more and want to try my hand at it myself. I want to combine this with my karate and make the most of my martial art and of my life. I have found a youtube clip of an amazing chinese practitioner of this, lama dorje. Also I have found an akijujutsu teacher who can do it as well. Below is a link with each of their demonstrations. I was unaware that the japanese martial arts had been able to do this kind of thing. Can anybody tell me if it is just the master and not the martial art, or do only certain martial arts do this? I have been able to break things and withstand blows through my ki without pain. I still have never imagined doing anything even remotely like what I see here. Any help would be great with this amazing topic. Thanks.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KJr2BdUTYkU&feature=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2v1BXXBTRVM&feature=related

The existance of Ki is one of those intangibles that has exponents on both sides of the fence screaming loud and clear that their side is right. I have been on both sides of that fence and find the use of Ki as an invaluable tool that I could not do without in my martial arts practice. The film you viewed is an example of quite possibly being group hysteria prompted by suggestability on the part of the subjects and what behavior is expected if you want to be a part of the group. I would like for you to view the following video and post up an opinion of what you saw happen:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

Baio

27th June 2008, 05:54

the first video is self hypnosis or just a group of frauds. they are either all faking, or definitely a few are plants and the rest are incredibly gullible and believing they are actually affected the same way as the plants. the second is also fake if you watch the way he prepares to break his fall it's apparent he's taking the hit and throwing himself down. you can see this in lots chi demonstrations.

brendan V Lanza

29th June 2008, 03:57

I had asked some people about this and said that it was actualy possibile given the laws of quantum physics. Supposedly we're all made of energy and have more considerable control over this energy than we know, we just need t excercise it. however, i do know that there are many frauds out there doing what you say that they are doing. There are other examples of this that do not involve humans to fake, like below:

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=iFjEqjhKiXo&feature=related

here he is breaking a guiness book record, supposedly

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=FyV4Zc9k0uE

What are your opinions on this?

Baio

29th June 2008, 04:04

There are other examples of this that do not involve humans to fake, like below:

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=iFjEqjhKiXo&feature=related

here he is breaking a guiness book record, supposedly

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=FyV4Zc9k0uE

What are your opinions on this?

you don't need chi to break bricks just physics. first off the obvious they're spaced, which means he's basically only breaking one or two bricks and allowing the rest to break themselves. this is a trick anyone who ever took a few karate classes knows. The second part is the lying on nails, once again physics everyone knows the more nails and the less space means more weight is distributed evenly across the surface so none of the nails will penetrate just like walking on glass. watch a few episodes of penn and teller: bulls hit and you'll see all this nonsense explained.

DDATFUS

29th June 2008, 06:58

What are your opinions on this?

Well, back in high school I lay on a bed of nails and had some cinderblocks placed on my chest. There was no chi involved. If you want to impress me, then lie down on one nail without being punctured. One nail will go through you. A bed of nails will support you.

If I remember correctly, e-budo member Joe Yang is something of an expert on the parlor tricks pulled by groups like this-- he has studied the history of such tricks and how they developed from quasi-theatrical demonstrations. He made a great post on it here once. You should search for that post. It's quite informative. It's no more "ki" or "chi" power than David Copperfield's illusions are real magic.

As a matter of fact, these tricks as being a lot like a magic show-- there is certainly an art to it. Sleight of hand, illusion, misdirection, all of these are impressive talents. A man who can pull a rabbit out of a hat has mastered a number of skills. But these skills do not include the ability to summon animals out of thin air. Knowing how to prepare the bricks in advance, knowing how to stack them so that they break cleanly, these are skills. But they are not ki.

Brian Owens

29th June 2008, 07:48

People:

Why is this in the Meditation thread? I see nothing related to meditation in any of the posts.

brendan V Lanza

29th June 2008, 11:04

I am well aware that people break bricks, I have studied karate as I mentioned earlier. I am also aware that people have support when lying on a bed of nails, and that cinderblocks can be broken upon them. I apologize that I was unable to finish last time, I was hurried out the door mid paragraph. I haven't seen anybody break bricks by tapping on them, and also, if you look closely it seems as if they break before he touches them on th guiness record video. Also, the tai chi video is from a center for buddhistic studies, why would they risk dirtying their name for parlor tricks?

brendan V Lanza

29th June 2008, 11:06

I have never seen anybody break 15 bricks by tapping on them, it's not like he broke a couple. It was obviously a tap, there was no real shoulder or tricep thrown into this.

P Goldsbury

29th June 2008, 12:43

People:

Why is this in the Meditation thread? I see nothing related to meditation in any of the posts.

Hello Brian,

I agree and have moved the thread to Budo no Kokoro. Mark Murray can decide whether to leave it here, or not.

PAG

kenkyusha

30th June 2008, 19:43

It would appear that you have invested some energy (and research?) into this topic, and don't wish to be swayed from your held beliefs. If you are soliciting geniune reaction, the fact that there is consensus about what you are posting... well, one could draw some information from that... YMMV.

Be well,
Jigme

pgsmith

30th June 2008, 21:06

I have never seen anybody break 15 bricks by tapping on them, it's not like he broke a couple. It was obviously a tap, there was no real shoulder or tricep thrown into this.
Mr. Lanza,
You asked for thoughts from people much more experienced in the martial arts than you. You then proceeded to argue with those thoughts. If you feel that it's all so wonderful and magical, go track down one of these fellows and give them money. They'll be more than happy to take your money and "teach" you all about magical ki power, no touch knock-outs, and disappearing elephants. If you are expecting anyone here to endorse your desire to learn magic and tell you it's a good idea, then I believe you're wasting everyone's time.

Just my opinion though.

Jitsumania

30th June 2008, 22:09

Mr. Lanza,
You asked for thoughts from people much more experienced in the martial arts than you. You then proceeded to argue with those thoughts. If you feel that it's all so wonderful and magical, go track down one of these fellows and give them money. They'll be more than happy to take your money and "teach" you all about magical ki power, no touch knock-outs, and disappearing elephants. If you are expecting anyone here to endorse your desire to learn magic and tell you it's a good idea, then I believe you're wasting everyone's time.

Just my opinion though.

I believe that Mr. Lanza has fallen into one of those great Martial arts quandry that some of us experience as we are growing in our art(s). This is one of those things that may require the great walkabout. We decipher along the way those things which are true or false depending on where our life experiences take us and the people we interact with. I have experienced Ki power but I also have encountered so called masters with alot of smoke and mirrors.
I am sure that that Truth is a relative concept so therefore my truth may not be your truth and vice versa. I spent a period of 8 years investigating this concept for myself. I have taken what I have needed and ditched the rest. The walkabout can have tremendous results and yield great truths to the practitioner who is willing to embarc on the journey while always being mindful of charlatans.
What I have found to be my truth is that I like it the old fashioned way- hands on with a bit of zing (ki) in the technique. Not everyone is succeptible to no touch techniques, so what are you going to do when you get clocked in the face as you are waving your hands to throw the guy accross the room?!?!?!?!
Don't get me wrong, internal development is critical in martial arts training, but one must also forge the body as well to connect to a strong mind.

I have still yet to encounter someone who can perform a no touch KO on me in seminars or training.

"Boards don't hit back" -Bruce Lee
Words to live by :)

Baio

1st July 2008, 01:14

I have never seen anybody break 15 bricks by tapping on them, it's not like he broke a couple. It was obviously a tap, there was no real shoulder or tricep thrown into this.

No shoulder or tricep but he is basically throwing his whole body in it and pressing with his hand, look at when he warms up and how quickly he moves then look at how long he stays on the brick when he actually breaks it. the reason it looks like they break before he strikes it is because they do. he's leaning on it and it's starting to break from his weight then he knocks it down to finish the reaction and break the rest, this is fine because it's not part of the guiness record so odds are they didn't mbother getting a specific quality of blocks like guiness requires for his next trick which is just getting them broken on himself.

Brian Owens

1st July 2008, 04:13

...Also, the tai chi video is from a center for buddhistic studies, why would they risk dirtying their name for parlor tricks?
In many cases, the people involved believe in what they are doing. They're just ill informed on science (or delusional). Morihei Ueshiba O-sensei, for example, believed that invisible rays eminating from his body allowed him to sense intruders. Today we would say that he had a hightened sense of awareness even when sleeping, coupled with very good hearing, etc., but that there are no "invisble rays." That doesn't mean that O-sensei wasn't a great man deserving great respect.

Fervent belief in a thing doesn't make the thing real. That doesn't make the believer a liar, though.

Other times, it's misunderstanding of what's being seen. Asian concepts don't always have clear translations into the English language, and so concepts become distorted.

HTH.

brendan V Lanza

2nd July 2008, 01:43

Great and wonderful answers from the both of you. To Mr. Smith, well I think it a bit presumptuous to say or believe that you are more experienced in martial arts than anyone, I don't. I do what I do and I feel that everyone goes on a different journey with the same destination. I've tried about seven different martial arts in my life, and have competed and am recently more interested in developing more the spiritual side of my martial arts. To Kyushenka, I was being a devil's advocate, for anyone who believes that what everyone says is right, would be wrong, as history has proven. Blacks weren't allowed to go to church 80 years ago because they supposedly were not men, people killed the jews in wwII because everyone said it was ok, we all thought the world was flat once too. Maybe you should rethink your tone and answer. I checked with the qigong research center and they said that they never heard of such a thing or saw it. Frankly, I believe that we can do alot with our chi, I use as an example sifu ku yu cheung, who killed a horse with a single blow, but the horse looked fine on the outside, while his insides were completely destroyed, as mentioned in the tao of gung fu by bruce lee. I also look to the public consensus history in china who recorded the event, and say he broke 15 bricks by slapping the top of it. I believe that. I don't believe what the videos show to my conclusion. However, on one's spiritual journey, as all true martial artists eventually embark on, one should be wary of smoke and mirrors as was said by the two fine gentlement i mentioned above. I agree with them, and I state my true opinion. I started this post in order to get opinions and experiences from those who have seen things that I haven't. Thank you once again.

Baio

2nd July 2008, 03:18

an interesting article to read about chi is here. http://www.csicop.org/si/9509/chi.html it explains the period when tcm became popular and a few of chi related things. also here is a chinese student of "qi gong" who infiltrated several groups of "masters" and proved the fakery used http://www.csicop.org/sb/9903/sima-nan.html

Brian Owens

2nd July 2008, 04:20

...tao of gung fu by bruce lee. ...
Would that be Gung Fu: Philisophical Art of Self Defense (his first, but little known book), or Tao of Jeet Kun Do (His later, but better known, book)?

brendan V Lanza

2nd July 2008, 05:38

I will pass by his place later and let you know.:)

pgsmith

2nd July 2008, 15:28

To Mr. Smith, well I think it a bit presumptuous to say or believe that you are more experienced in martial arts than anyone, I don't.
I now see why you are having such a difficult time, since it seems that you don't really read what people write. Please re-read my prior post and point out where I stated that I was more experienced than anyone. I've no interest in arguing with you sir, feel free to believe whatever you wish.

kenkyusha

3rd July 2008, 00:22

To Kyushenka, I was being a devil's advocate, for anyone who believes that what everyone says is right, would be wrong, as history has proven. Blacks weren't allowed to go to church 80 years ago because they supposedly were not men, people killed the jews in wwII because everyone said it was ok, we all thought the world was flat once too. Maybe you should rethink your tone and answer.
Should I take it that this is meant for me? Ah well, it would appear that your queries are not genuine (your cup is full, neh?)- no need to go further.

Be well,
Jigme

brendan V Lanza

3rd July 2008, 04:59

"It would appear that you ...don't wish to be swayed from your held beliefs. If you are soliciting geniune reaction, the fact that there is consensus about what you are posting... well, one could draw some information from that"

So, what you're telling me is be quiet listen to what the other three people said, as if that makes the answer to my question obvious because a few other people say one thing. Do you really think that could fill anyone's cup, sir? I don't mean to offend you but a little more substance to an argument is usually needed for me and i always give the benefit of the doubt to the underdog as it is that they ave always had some element of truth to them. Baio used some nice articles for his advocation for instance. You also say that they were my beliefs when I clearly had asked for opinions on it in the first place. I always say something, ask a question, provide reason for belief in it, ad get opinions, then i form a belief, which i just stated in my post that I agree with Mr. Owens ad Jitsumaia, so obviously my cup wasn't full, was it?

brendan V Lanza

3rd July 2008, 05:09

"Mr. Lanza,
You asked for thoughts from people much more experienced in the martial arts than you. You then proceeded to argue with those thoughts. If you feel that it's all so wonderful and magical, go track down one of these fellows and give them money. They'll be more than happy to take your money and "teach" you all about magical ki power, no touch knock-outs, and disappearing elephants. If you are expecting anyone here to endorse your desire to learn magic and tell you it's a good idea, then I believe you're wasting everyone's time.

Just my opinion though."

You first say that I argued with those who are more experienced than I, so I merely pointed out that I was looking for those with different experiences from myself. Every ma is good at something and can do better at something else. I know one guy who never learned a martial art but spent his childhood sweeping people, and became very good at it. He met a friend of mine who does muay thai ad got sweeped on a number of occasions during their sparring match. This is regardless of the fact that the muay thai fighter had be practicing for two ad a half years, had competed, and was quite good for his level. Once again it is presumptuous to say that someone is more experienced than another, and it is presumptuous to say that I was planning to pay money for what you say i believe in, which is a magical power and disappearing elephants. SO, I don't want to argue with you either, but you're making it awfully hard sir.

"I had asked some people about this and said that it was actualy possibile given the laws of quantum physics. Supposedly we're all made of energy and have more considerable control over this energy than we know, we just need t excercise it. however, i do know that there are many frauds out there doing what you say that they are doing."

I related my question to sciece, not disappearing elephants nor magic, thanks.

Brian Owens

3rd July 2008, 07:14

..."I had asked some people about this and said that it was actualy possibile given the laws of quantum physics. ...I related my question to sciece, not disappearing elephants nor magic, thanks.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm no Max Plank or Niels Bohr (although I did study under one of the latter's students, Nancy Howe), but I have to say that I'm not aware of anything in quantum mechanics, quantum electrodynamics, or unified field theory that would explain throwing people without touching them, etc.

I am aware of principles of psychology and of legerdemain that would explain it, however.

Such stunts have more to do with dissappearing elephants than with dark body radiation, in my opinion.

brendan V Lanza

3rd July 2008, 14:04

I have studied quite a bit of quantum mechanics, actually, because it relates to my religious beliefs, which involve science. In quantum mechanics the quantum atom, as opposed to the newtonian atom, is invisible. We and everything in our world and our universe is made out of energy. Not all energy can be seen by our two eyes, which are quite limited actually, to only 2 and 3 dimensional objects. There are many more dimensions than that, but I don't want this to go into that kind of discussion. We use this technology to make machines which measure energy, like x-ray machines. There is even a machine that has been invented here in asia that supposedly measures your chakras, said to be the source of chi, if the science of acupuncture isn't good enough for you. Just because western science hasn't proven acupuncture doesn't mean that it isn't science, i for one am a witness to its effects. There are so many things that western medicine hasn't proven, and it hasn't been able to disprove acupuncture nor explain its effect either. Most try to say that it's endorphins only, but that actually isn't possible. It also isn't placebo for people have been cured while not having been conscious to have a placebo. Anyway, this is also not the point of my discussion. There is reasonable enough evidence to explain that we have and can use chi. Tai Chi has always used the philosophy that the body is united, not separate in parts, it is one entity, not arms, legs, a head and body, but one piece altogether. Now, if you apply quantum energy theory you will find that this is correct, we are one piece of energy. We even have memories stored in others places other than our brain, supposedly if you cut off a toe you will lose some memory, but actually your energy is surrounding your body and will still be there when your body is gone, energy is never destroyed just transferred (quantum law). Now, that's why if you cut off your toe you will have a phantom toe. Anyway, if we are energy and we have energy (when you get tired you sleep and generate more energy for your body, making you feel more refreshed in the morning) and we can use our energy to heal ourselves and hurt others, then it is plausable, not proven though and I've never seen it, that we could generate enough energy to make someone feel it without touching them physically, especially since our energy extends beyond our skin. Now throwing people across the room may be too much, but making them feel positive and negative energy may be possible, which (without going into too much details) can hurt someone or heal them. It goes to belief on this one, because it hasn't been proven in a case study, however scientifically plasuible, with no disappearing elephants.:D

MikeWilliams

3rd July 2008, 16:34

Wow, that last post was so rambling and wide-ranging that it's hard to know where to start, without dissecting it line-for-line. I will say that your understanding of quantum mechanics seems to be deeply flawed.

It is not "quantum energy" that causes amputees to feel phantom limbs, but rather entirely explicable reactions in the nervous system. And what's this "chakra measurement machine"? Do you have sources? If chakras can be observed and measured they can be related back to human physiology and therefore explained. That would be cool.

But all of this is way off-topic. Ultimately, your whole position can be summed up in your last sentence:
It goes to belief on this one, because it hasn't been proven in a case study

All I suggest is that you (temporarily if need be) turn off your belief in order to ask some critical questions: why is it that ki/chi martial arts tricks can only be applied in controlled environments on willing participants? Why can't they be replicated in experiments? Why is there no scientific evidence? Why is everyone so sceptical? And please apply Occam's Razor - a martial arts master faking a demonstration on willing stooges is a *much* simpler explanation than a mysterious (quantum or otherwise) force that no-one can describe, demonstrate or explain.

But go ahead, believe if you want to. Personally I think there are far more worthwhile paths to take in the martial arts - but if channelling your ki is what you are in to, then good luck to you. Just don't start paying anyone money.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIjib188mD8&feature=related

Brian Owens

3rd July 2008, 19:44

...Just because western science hasn't proven acupuncture doesn't mean that it isn't science...
The difference is that properly controlled studies have proven that accupuncture (and accupressure, which I practice) actually have measurable effects that go beyond placebo or psychosomatic effects, even if the exact mechanism isn't known.

But knocking people out and/or throwing them without contact doesn't work in controlled experiments. It has been shown time and time again to work only on persons who are -- consciously or subconsciously -- willing accomplices. In cases where it's not outright fakery, it's easy to see that it's just a form of hypnosis or suggestability at work.

It's not just a lack of proof, it's positive disproof.

But here's the thing: you've shown videos of a person doing a breaking demonstration and said it showed ki at work, and we've pointed out that it's simple physics at work.

We've seen videos of people jumping around like monkeys when someone waves his hands, and we've explained that it's the power of suggestion.

But since you don't want to listen, and keep coming up with counters to our answers, why are you even here? It would probablt be more appropriate for you to take your "belief" somewhere other than a board dedicated to traditional Japanese martial arts, because this discussion is clearly going to go nowhere fast on E-Budo.

brendan V Lanza

4th July 2008, 00:01

first off, I agreed with you, Mr. Owens, I was merely explaining how one could have argued from a quantum science point of view, which i was questioned about before. I said that my religious belief had to do with science, not that it had to do with throwing people around without touching them. I was explaining that there was a way of arguing the point that I originally asked about from a scientific point of view, I didn't intend to discuss science on a MA forum, but I felt that I had to so that I can add credibility to the reason for bringing it up in the first place. Basically from what I see is that I brought up a subject that everybody here disagrees with, so after a time I disagreed along with them, but everyone still is trying to put words into my mouth saying that it is my belief, it is not. Stop saying that it is. I believe in science and chi and acupuncture. Period. I don't believe you can throw people without touching them.

brendan V Lanza

4th July 2008, 01:25

"It is not "quantum energy" that causes amputees to feel phantom limbs, but rather entirely explicable reactions in the nervous system. And what's this "chakra measurement machine"? Do you have sources? If chakras can be observed and measured they can be related back to human physiology and therefore explained. That would be cool."

First, Mike, I want to say that just because the phantoim toe can be explained by your nervous system in biology doesn't mean that it can't be explained in quantum physics as well. Your nervous system, organs, everything is energy, and there are parts of you that you can't see as well. Second, I do believe that those people are fakes, but I also believe in chi and that there are larger possibilities with chi than we know of, although throwing people is too much. However, as I explained earlier, it was a plausible argument in terms of science, which everything i said is quantifiable by quantum law and in no way flawed (if you believe that the phatom toe is a deep flaw, which I just againb explained). As to the chakras machine, I will get an article and post it here for you to view and form your own opinion on.
However I lready used occam's razor, and I can separate my beliefs and look open mindedly at a subject with ease. I don't believe that you can throw people, but I wasn't sure if the original videos were legitimate considering there were done by a religious institute for buddhistic studies and the explanation he gave in the video seemed to coincide with a possibility in quantum mechanics. I do also agree with Mr. Owens that pyschology could be playing a big factor here, unless dondrop dorje himself wishes to be studied in a case study by scientists to prove us wrong. However, my second part of the argument, the devil's advocate part, had to do with chi itself, with the fellow breaking bricks while tapping on them. I do believe in chi, and so do many other martial artists, and quantum physics is also a good part of my belief, but that is not a part of this discussion (my belief). The discussion was whether or not it was possible to move people with your energy, which most people seem to agree here is not possible. However, there wasn't, from what a I see, an argument against chi itself.

brendan V Lanza

4th July 2008, 02:49

Here is the kung fu book,
http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Gung-Fu-Chinese-Martial/dp/0804831106/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215139467&sr=8-2

cheers,

Brian Owens

4th July 2008, 03:36

Here is the kung fu book...
Hmmm. That's a new one to me.

Published after his death, it appears to be a collection of Bruce's writings from different times and places.

I'll have to add that one to my library.

brendan V Lanza

4th July 2008, 04:03

I haven't read all of it, but parts and I like what I read. Bruce also believed in chi, and also denounces charlatans who lie in order to fill their pockets in this book.

brendan V Lanza

4th July 2008, 04:07

Please Enjoy!;)

Brian Owens

4th July 2008, 08:19

...Bruce also believed in chi...
Oh, Puh-leeeze! A spurious appeal to authority?!? This crowd is a little bit too sophisticated for that.

I could say, "Superstrings are giant strands of yarn that hold the planets together," and then say "Professor Brian Greene of Columbia University has written a book about superstrings."

Does that mean that Prof. Greene believes that superstrings are giant strands of yarn that hold the planets together? Of course not. Only someone incapable of critical analysis would think so.

Redefining words to fit ones own beliefs, and than trying to say that someone else who doesn't use the same word in the same way supports the belief is a common ploy used by charlatans and cultists.

brendan V Lanza

4th July 2008, 10:01

He mentions the dan tien in his book, you know... the sources of chi in your body. What do you think that he believes? I have a suspiscion that you don't believe in chi, enjoy the book in any way you want to, believe in what you want, under whoever's authority you want, and be at peace my brother.

brendan V Lanza

4th July 2008, 11:02

Did you just call me a charlatan and cultist because I believe in chi? You do realize that most of the ancient budo and marital arts masters of the east mention chi in their writings, right? I don't think im qualified for a cultist

Brian Owens

4th July 2008, 17:54

... I have a suspiscion that you don't believe in chi...
Your suspicion would be wrong.

That doesn't mean that I believe what you believe, however.

Brian Owens

4th July 2008, 18:03

Did you just call me a charlatan and cultist because I believe in chi?
No, I didn't. I merely pointed out that charlatans and cultists often do something similar to what you did: state a position, and then say that someone else (usually, as in your case, long dead and unable to clarify his or her position) agrees with that position even when there is no evidence that such agreement exists.

The fact that 35 or more years ago Bruce wrote about chi doesn't mean that he thought chi is what you think chi is.

Jitsumania

5th July 2008, 01:22

I believe that we have the quandry of "quantification" present, which is what may be fueling the differences of opinion. If you question the oriental culture regarding the exsistance of chi I am reasonably sure that a large amount of the population would express some belief in chi on a continuum of " believe a little" to "firmly believe it". Some may even affirm and attest to certain supernatural qualities manifested (unlike common westerner belief). This concept has been a conerstone of TCM, accupuncture, accupressure,etc in the orriental culture, not the western culture. The oriental culture has manifested (for centuries) a belief in holistic approach (chi, ki driven) versus treatment of symptom which is the approach widly used by western medicine. Westerners (and most others) believe in electricity, even though we cannot engage in visual quantification of its power unless we have the proper tools to do so (voltmeter). We trust that when the switch is flipped the object (bulb, tv,etc) will come to life due to electricity. Unfortunately the abundance of tools to quantify chi in a uniform scientific manner acceptable to the scientific community is still deficient.
My belief in something is fueled and energized by continued reinforcement in that theory, concept, etc working by watching the manifestation of those theories, concepts, etc manifesting themselves in or around my presence. The other way is to just have blind faith.
I may be a bit presumtuous in assuming that it may work like this for many others, but so be it. Believe what you want to believe, believe what you need to believe, but believe for the right reasons and not out of deception. There is a concept that may keep a martial artist in darkness or ignorance during their growth and that is "contempt prior to investigation."

brendan V Lanza

5th July 2008, 14:31

I would like to announce that my beautiful baby girl, Erica, was born last night on July 4th, 2008, at 11:19 PM!!!:);):D:toast:

brendan V Lanza

5th July 2008, 14:44

I believ in what the martial artists of old believe in, that there is an energy force that goes through everything, not just us (it was believed that the mountains contained great sources of chi for instance) that brings life (asians believed very firmly, and many still do that a life is made once a large amount of chi is accumulated in one place which is what supposedly starts to happen once the sperm enters the egg, according to ancient asian belief). I believe, as many other modern asians do, as well as scientists and doctors, like the semi-famous Bruce Lipton PHD, that this is related to Quantum Physics as an explanation. That's what I believe, I also know that many traditional asian people (especially people involved with the chinese martial arts) believe that chi can be projected without touch, I also believe this but believe that it has a limit. I don't think, as I have already stated, that you can throw people without touching them, that's too much. I live in Asia, I live like an Asian, I married onee, I hear first hand what they believe, I speak an Asian language and am immersed in their culture, and now my daughter is Asian. I basically believe what so many modern asians believe and ancient as well. It is my opinion that Bruce Leee also believed in what the ancients also believed in, and that is chi. I said he believed in chi, I don't think that makes me a cultist and I don't know why you seem to think that I believe in something very unorthodox as it is that so many people the part of the world that I live in, the same part of the world that Bruce Lee came from (Asia) believe the same way as I do. I honestly don't feel it correct to say that I am doing the same thing as any cultist, and I say this as humbly and politely as possible. I teach for a living, and have been teaching many asians in the medical profession who believe in the quantum mechanics that I explained. Does that mean that Bruce Lee did? No, maybe he had a different view because so many people today and in his time weren't so interested in the science to investigate it further. But I said that he believed in chi, that's all that I said, now I don't think that I was going too far in saying that, do you?

Chris McLean

29th September 2008, 15:54

The first vid clip is a cult in my opinion.

Chuck.Gordon

29th September 2008, 23:59

Ya know, if someone can actually do the sorts of thing that some people claim to be able to do, and can do them in controlled, repeatable, measurable fashion, there's probably a Nobel in their future.

However, so far, we got no proof. No repeatable, measurable, quantifiable results. Just hearsay and bragging and posturing and sometimes something interesting happens that cannot be repeated under controlled circumstances.

Ki/Chi/Qi is shorthand for good ergonomics, good body mechanics, tight focus and intelligent application of force. Not much more.

Legend and myth are fun, but they don't hold up to scientific scrutiny.

It's easy to believe in the esoteric, but taking a realistic, scientific stance and measuring, evaluating, researching and defining what is being done is the trick.

If it don't stand up to scientific scrutiny, it's probably prestidigitation.

Don't get wrapped up in the woo. Train, enjoy, pass it on. Don't delude yourself or anyone else.

cg
(A skeptic who is open to proof and evidence, but ain't holding his breath and who has studied budo for about 35 years and has yet to see any real evidence of anything resembling supernatural forces) ...

Woody

30th September 2008, 00:39

Ki/Chi/Qi is shorthand for good ergonomics, good body mechanics, tight focus and intelligent application of force. Not much more.

Legend and myth are fun, but they don't hold up to scientific scrutiny.

It's easy to believe in the esoteric, but taking a realistic, scientific stance and measuring, evaluating, researching and defining what is being done is the trick.

If it don't stand up to scientific scrutiny, it's probably prestidigitation.
Chuck,
You might find this interesting:
http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/Qi_Press/TaiChi%20Stanford.pdf

Chris McLean

30th September 2008, 13:26

Magic and slight of hand requires more skill than what’s demonstrated in the video. All he has is an agreement between the human beings to react by jumping around once he initiates movement there is no skill required for that demonstration in my opinion. The need to belong and be accepted by others to receive validation for their perceived skills is what drives them to agree to participate.

Maybe Einstien could develope a theroy to explain it but I dont see it with my limited intelect sorry.

I am no Taichi expert but I will go out on a limb and say that what Chen does in the Stanford testing is not what the guy in the video posted originally on this thread is doing.

I know a student of the Chen lineage their practice is very explosive with power originating from the core of the body. They use prolonged practice in deep stances with very clean lines of power and proper body mechanics to produce the ability to generate this explosive power.

It doesn’t look anything like what most people in vision as tai chi chuan.

I will also go out on a limb and say I believe Chen could knock down ten guys like dominos but it would not occur as was pictured in the video in this thread.

I would practice Chen style Tai chi chuan.

will fredette

6th November 2008, 00:28

Magic and slight of hand requires more skill than what’s demonstrated in the video. All he has is an agreement between the human beings to react by jumping around once he initiates movement there is no skill required for that demonstration in my opinion. The need to belong and be accepted by others to receive validation for their perceived skills is what drives them to agree to participate.

Maybe Einstien could develope a theroy to explain it but I don't see it with my limited intelect sorry.

I am no Taichi expert but I will go out on a limb and say that what Chen does in the Stanford testing is not what the guy in the video posted originally on this thread is doing.

I know a student of the Chen lineage their practice is very explosive with power originating from the core of the body. They use prolonged practice in deep stances with very clean lines of power and proper body mechanics to produce the ability to generate this explosive power.

It doesn’t look anything like what most people in vision as tai chi chuan.

I will also go out on a limb and say I believe Chen could knock down ten guys like dominos but it would not occur as was pictured in the video in this thread.

I would practice Chen style Tai chi chuan.

i don't believe in the non touch power stuff as i had not seen it,but your right about taiji.
they do have very clear lines of power to the ground. i met one about 6 years ago. i needed a training partner to train jujitsu and he was around so we started training together. since then i have trained in taiji and it just made all my skills better. i'm all for it. is quite remarkable!
cheers

brendan V Lanza

1st February 2009, 14:04

I don't believe what the bubble guy is doing, but there is a few possible scientific explanations, I put one forward, but there are others if you look for them. No one can argue that acupuncture is effective, there obviously must be something to the dan tien, folks, scientific. Just because you can't normally see bacteria with you own two eyes doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. To be frank we actually haven't really been able to xplore alot of things, 80% of most things we do haven't been scientifically proven, arguably (and no I'm not in the mood to argue, just use your head). Our eyes can only see two dimensions, yet there are supposedly eleven. I think that there's alot that we don't see and we don't use our own senses enough. I have personally felt chi, and seen it's effects when hitting someone, I have not been able to control my chi effectively, but I could feel a difference and noticed that my impact with chi was more effective and the damage went deeper. I think that if anybody knows anything about science, they should keep an open mind, although not too open. I don't expect anybody to develop a way to make moneys fly, but with genetic technology today, it might actually happen. Every four years we double our technology.

Baio

1st February 2009, 23:45

acupuncture has still not been proven to be any more effective than randomly sticking needles in someone.

Mika Rantanen

2nd February 2009, 07:26

acupuncture has still not been proven to be any more effective than randomly sticking needles in someone.

That is actually not correct anymore. A search in Cochrane database (http://search.cochrane.org/search?q=acupuncture&restrict=cochrane_org&scso_cochrane_org=whole+site&scso_review_abstracts=Cochrane+reviews&scso_registered_titles=registered+titles&scso_evidence_aid=evidence+aid&scso_colloquia_abstracts=colloquia+abstracts&scso_newsletters=newsletters&ie=&site=my_collection&output=xml_no_dtd&client=my_collection&lr=&proxystylesheet=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cochrane.org%2Fsearch%2Fgoogle_mini_xsl%2Fcochrane_org.xsl&oe=&filter=0&btnG=Search&sub_site_name=Cochrane.org+search) reveals multiple results, some of which reveal that acupuncture is in fact beneficial treatment in some cases. Of course there still remains some controversy over the importance of placing the needles, but in fact even MDs use needles to effect trigger points when applicable.

Now, this doesn't mean there's anything to the whole ki/chi/meridians system - just that acupuncture as a treatment is not all placebo and so useless as some overly scientifically minded people in the West used to think. Also every sane acupuncturist recognizes the uses and limits of the needles and will not try to cure diseases like cancer.

The area where acupuncture is most beneficial is pain control and musculoskeletal problems.

http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab004870.html
http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab001351.html
http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003281.html
http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab004870.html

Brian Owens

3rd February 2009, 02:38

...The area where acupuncture is most beneficial is pain control and musculoskeletal problems.

Yep.

It has also been shown to be beneficial in quitting smoking (used on a point in the ears lobes, if memory serves me correctly).

ssanutokh

3rd February 2009, 12:45

Yep.

It has also been shown to be beneficial in quitting smoking (used on a point in the ears lobes, if memory serves me correctly).

"Quit smoking, or I'll stab you in the earlobe with a needle."

I guess I can see how that might be somewhat motivational.

Mika Rantanen

3rd February 2009, 14:39

It has also been shown to be beneficial in quitting smoking (used on a point in the ears lobes, if memory serves me correctly).

Actually another Cochrane review says that at the moment there is no consistent evidence to support the claim that acupuncture helps more people quit smoking. Although I think Carl's idea might be worth researching. ;)

http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab000009.html

For those of you who don't know, the Cochrane Collaboration is one of the most reliable and respected providers of systematic reviews in the medical field and systematic reviews are the thing that modern medicine uses to validate treatments' effectiviness. In other words: if a systematic review finds so it probably is so, and vice versa if you think something opposite to a systematic review's findings you better have pretty good and extensive proof of it.

And then again, (almost) anything you think helps you stop smoking or get better is good for you and probably helps. :cool:

brendan V Lanza

3rd February 2009, 16:18

There is also a great deal of research that has been done in acupressure, which was used along with western science, including psychology (although it is not placebo oriented but brain science oriented), in order to create EFT [emotional freedom technique, it was originally only for emotional stress but then was found to take on much more]. It was found that they could cure people from stress and psychological disorders through touching certain meridians during meditation. They also found that it could benefit those with physical conditions. I was skeptical about this at first, however, I hurt my bone in my knee real bad on a staircase and found that after my friend walked me through it, it went away in just ten minutes, completely, with no backlash. It had been hurting for three weeks. Supposedly it has also cured diabetes, bipolar, gotten people out of wheelchairs and off crutches. Once again, I had problems believing until I actually saw a few cases, and in fact it is quite amazing stuff. It actually is clinically proven to change your blood movements in just five minutes, an emotional reck to a normal and happy person's blood (yes, there is a difference, the recks blood clumps while the normal person's blood flows relatively rapidly). There's nobody in the world who can argue that people with multiple sclerosis, diabetes, and badly spraned bones are cured in mere minutes based on pure placebo, there must be some other reason. I'm not trying to say that it has all the answers in the world, but it is amazing, clinically proven, and involved with acupressure.

Mika Rantanen

3rd February 2009, 18:59

Brendan, who is this they who have done the research and found these things? Can you give us the names of the clinics where these studies were carried out and the people who did them? Any links to articles in peer reviewed publications or institutions are also most welcome. You know, personal anecdotes or stories heard in the internet (what this is for me right now, I read someone telling these things but I have no other viable proof for it) are not considered proof.

Anything that is "clinically proven" should not be difficult to come up with searches to pubMed or such databases.

Mika Rantanen

3rd February 2009, 19:03

Also I'm sure that the medical community would be most interested in a fast cure - or a cure in itself - for MS or diabetes.

I don't want to appear overly negative or sceptical, but as they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Trevor Johnson

3rd February 2009, 23:02

I don't understand what you mean by blood clumps. There are 2 ways I know of in which blood "clumps."

One is metastatic cancerous cells clumping red blood cells around them while they travel through the blood stream. These aren't large clumps, they're indetectable save through microscopy or flow cytometric techniques.

The other is blood clots, and if a person who's an emotional wreck has blood clots, he's also going to have heart attacks or strokes. Blood clots loose in the blood are deadly.

You may be talking about speeding up blood flow, in which case it may be causing the heart to speed up...

Also, take a look at this article (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/ideomotor.html). It's very likely that a number of these phenomena are variants of ideomotor phenomena.

Chuck.Gordon

4th February 2009, 15:53

Wow.

Quantum Physics:

Sounds a bit like the pseudo-science of "What the Bleep Do We Know" ...

Do you actually study QP, as in doing the maths, or are you reading pop-sci books about it?

Acupuncture:

Arguably, there is valid science behind the idea of interrupting a pain response by using a needle, and this has been used effectively (and researchefairly thoroughly), but the effect is physical and not metaphysical. It involves invoking a histamine response, among other things, IIRC.

As for quitting smoking (or curing internet porn addiction), the act of doing something about the problem, coupled with a physical response to the prick of the needle could form a fairly effective mnemonic to assist the sufferer in handling cravings, but there's no evidence I've seen that relates any metaphysical properties tothe practice.

A couple of good resources for info about such things are:

http://www.quackwatch.org/index.html

http://skepdic.com/

http://www.randi.org/site/

Mika Rantanen

4th February 2009, 16:13

One problem when talking about "body energies" and "blood clots" etc. is that the medical / scientific community and common people sometimes use very different language. In Finland people who have back pains regularly say they have "dislocated" their spine - something which irks medical practitioners who know better to no end! :)

So one possibility is that these "blood clots" are not actual clots in the blood but just a description used by the archaic practitioners of hocus pocus to describe a phenomena they thought was caused by clots in the blood.

This confusion in terminology is a thing we should always keep in mind when talking with uneducated people and a reason why people should use precise language if they know what they are talking about (and find out if they don't).

The sceptic sites mentioned in earlier post are a good first reference places for people, as long as you take them with a grain of salt and keep in mind they are not a scientific source per se. The Finnish sceptics site has a dictionary like thing about pseudoscience and it has some pretty big inaccuracies when it comes to martial arts for example. Those writers are just common people too with their conceptions and misconceptions.

brendan V Lanza

8th February 2009, 10:11

I've been away on business for a few days and came back just today. I like skeptics of science, that's what scientists are, that's why we go on and on testing theories, we're skeptical. That's really good. Everything I say about science, I have researched, and that also includes What the bleep. I researched Epigenetics, M-theory, string theory (upon which the M-theory came from), thought-forms, food sciences, neurology, and a number of other interesting sciences. First off, everything in what the bleep was done by the top people in their fields, except for that Ramtha woman. Yes, I am aware that the people who funded the movie had been from her so called school of enlightenment, but that's not actually important because everything put forth is actually scientifically verifiable, and the scientists who put them are also the best from stanford, harvard, and so on... I for one support their concept, and it seems that einstein did too. I don't have time to discuss this in length at the moment, however, here's a link for falkoni with the info that he requested, I'll be back soon for more input:-)

http://eftkorea.net/zbxe/popup/movie.html

brendan V Lanza

8th February 2009, 10:21

the fubby part i said (title) was the reaction to my post, i didn't expect much of one

P. Hval

6th July 2009, 08:02

So many posts from smart and experienced folks, 'hope relating what I've seen won't displease....
Long ago I had a chance to try "ki" (or "chi") treatment for my knee. The person doing it said it could be seen and reduced the lighting so the room was slightly dim. I saw a see-through, pale gray but thinner than smoke "line" or beam running from the palm of her hand to my kneecap. (She followed her teacher back to China a few days later so I never saw her again.)

I had a tai chi teacher who'd been the "throwing doll" and cleaner-upperer for her Master who initially refused her as a student as she was a girl; I guess Seifoo was 7 when she began so it must have been tough. She grew up to be a hand-to-hand combat instructor for what in those days was the "Red Army." She never studied "chi gung" like "ki" for fighting, etc.
Emigrating to Hong Kong where she led a rather active and athletic "tai chi chuan" class, one evening showing a pushaway technique, very lightly laid 4 fingers on my forearm. By class-end, there were 4 red welts on my skin: the senior students just smiled...it was normal. Another time explaining a thrust that first hid the fingers behind the other hand's cupped palm, she for a few
seconds, almost touched the front of my loose T-shirt. That night, there was a reddening mark where the bones intersect below the breastbone, at the same height and along the same line she had stopped her fingers. Next morning, the mark was a 2" vertical purple-and-black bruise.
In an Aikido demonstration in Japan, a teacher was showing ward-off, disarming and disabling techniques as his students "attacked" in turn, got thrown or were taken down, when one got out of synch and came in almost simultaneously with the man before him and at a sharp angle. The teacher's left arm easily flung away the first, as he turned slightly; then behind a kind of whole-body focus, his right hip moved almost imperceptively as the ill-timed student second seemed about to crash into him. I couldn't see actual contact but the student was propelled backwards 3-4 feet. If there was, it was very short: I just saw the Master's hip slightly move.
I began budo 44 years ago with a long way still to go but I think the above were real "ki." Sorry for the long post. Pam

Richard Scardina

17th November 2009, 06:01

Pam, you had not witnessed Chi-Ki. The mind desires to accept what it has so desired to do in a somewhat proselytized manner. Likewise seeing images od Jesus on a piece of toasted bread. (Not that I am out to use Jesus' name in vain, Im making a point.)

Over 40 years in martial arts, and I have been to, met, many people, martial artists, shaman, gurus, etc., and the like.

I have not known Chi-KI to exist, thus far (Only in subject-word and discussion)

brendan V Lanza

13th February 2010, 04:38

Yes, Rchard, sometimes you're right. The mind can play tricks on you. However, it doesn't normally happen more than once. Those people who say they saw Jesus in a cupcake, they only saw it once. But most people with alot of martial arts experience have seen it, ands even felt it, more than once. I have felt it several times, and using the techniques in the link I sent, which is free to use (don't say I'm selling anything) I have healed myself of unbelievable things. One of my friends heals a slipped disk with it, it has never bothered him after the third healing session. Another friend took about six months, but completely altered his bipolar, and was allowed to get off medication that he'd been on for over 7 years. Just because you haven't seen it in your experience, or wrote off what you saw as mind games, doesn't mean that they are. Nor does it give you the right to tell other people what they felt or saw, on more than one occasion (like Pam), as mind games. I'm sorry but that's just your opinion. It would be like an atheist arguing with a monotheist about God by saying, "Look I've been around for 40 years and I've never seen him." There are many people, however who say they've felt him, and know he has performed miracles in their lives. I want to stress that just because you haven't experienced something, or couldn't understand it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Nor does it give you the right to tell others that their mind is playing tricks on them. I've never seen a million dollars either, but I'm positive that it's out there.

Baio

13th February 2010, 04:58

it does give him the right to say it just as they have the right to say ashida kim shot them with an invisible fireball. there is no scientific proof of chi, there's lots of babble about quantum physics and things but i've never seen any theoretical physicist even mention chi. you can talk about how one person felt chi over and over and i'll show you a priest who feels jesus's presence every day, a shaman who feels nature and a homeless guy who feels a crazy demon that makes him write nonsense songs.

Also if you want to see a million dollars have one of your chi master friends take the james randi million dollar challenge at www.randi.org