old kata?

[jimmy o'curry]

i read somewhere that the kime no kata & koshiki no kata are rather old, being holdovers from the old ryu . . .

is this true? if so, how old are they, and what ryu did the kime no kata come from? (as i understand it, the koshiki is from the kito school) . . .

thanks in advance;

jeff slade

[MarkF]

hi, Jime:wave:

Kime no kata can be said to be the Kodokan judo's oldest self-defense kata. There are two sets of waza: One from seiza or hiza, and one tachiai. Since this kata uses atemi, kata ate, sword defense, et., it is strictly done by kata specialists, although some are reviving it, and utilizing the technique (tachiai mostly) for teaching self-preservation along with goshin jutsu, as do I.

Ko shiki no kata is the oldest known judo kata and comes straight from the kito ryu school (particularly ko shiki), as does kime no kata.

These kata are the omote and ura of judo and are taught usually only to those with considerable time in training. Ko shiki is one which was done originally in armor, but the similarites to modern judo and some newer, unarmored, taijutsu techniques are inescapable. In KJ, there are photos of Kano Jigoro and his student, one Yamashita Yoshitsugu. Kime no kata also is referred to as Shinken Shobu no kata, or combat kata.

Both can be found in Kodokan Judo, at least in the two versions I have, from 1958 and 1986. Also, The Seven Kata of Judo by M. Kawaishi (translated by EJ Harrison) describes the kata, and the drawings, by Jean Gailhat, is available today in paperback, The Overlook Press, Woodstock, New York.

Try Barnes and Noble. I think they drop ship the book.

Also, check out the following links for pictures, etc:

http://judoinfo.com/katakime.htm and http://www.bstkd.com/judorev.htm . The latter is from Big Sky Judo, and has one of the best online histories. The Bibliography is amazing.

It was originally published in 1957 in Great Britain.

I hope this helps some.

Mark

[jimmy o'curry]

mark;

thanks for the quick reply.


jime okuri (jeff slade)

[Ben Reinhardt]

Originally posted by MarkF
hi, Jime:wave:

Kime no kata can be said to be the Kodokan judo's oldest self-defense kata. There are two sets of waza: One from seiza or hiza, and one tachiai. Since this kata uses atemi, kata ate, sword defense, et., it is strictly done by kata specialists, although some are reviving it, and utilizing the technique (tachiai mostly) for teaching self-preservation along with goshin jutsu, as do I.

Ko shiki no kata is the oldest known judo kata and comes straight from the kito ryu school (particularly ko shiki), as does kime no kata.

++++++++Ben Reinhardt+++++++
Kime No Kata comes from the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, not Kito Ryu. The kneeling techniques are known as "idori".
+++++++++++++

Mark

[MarkF]

I know the seiza forms are called Idori. Some don't know.

Mark

[tommysella]

Hi all!

Some interesting info on the Koshiki no Kata is that it is very simular to the original Kito Ryu kata. It is only 2 or 3 techniques that differs.

An other interesting Kata is Itsutsu no Kata. These 5 techniques is simular to the the five Kuden techniques of the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu (at least as I have been told). In Tenjin Shinyo Ruy these techniques are named... [edited by mod. by request of author]. Wonder why Kano didn't use these names...?

Yours on the mat!

Tommy Selggren
Gävle Judo Club

[Ben Reinhardt]

Originally posted by MarkF
I know the seiza forms are called Idori. Some don't know.

Mark



I must have missed the word "Idori" in your post...

[gavinslater]

Hi All,

I was always told that the kime no kata came from the tenjin shinyo ryu. But I found this on the internet relating to the sosuishi ryu.

"The fourteenth inheritor of Sosuishi-ryu, Kibei Masanori Aoyagi attended a meeting at the Dai Nihon Butokukai in Kyoto on the 24th July, 1906, together with a conclave of leading ju jutsu masters. This meeting was called by Jigoro Kano, the founder of Kodokan judo to gain permission to use the techniques of these schools for the synthesis of Kodokan judo and the formulation of the official katas. The fourteenth inheritor, Kibei Masanori Aoyagi contributed the 68 movements of Kime no Kata (Sosuishi-ryu kata), and from these movements, twenty techniques were selected for the official formation of the "Kodokan Kime no Kata" Kibei Masanori Aoyagi was a foundation member of the Kodokan judo Institute."

For the web site;

http://www.sosuishi-ryu.org/history/int/index.html

Regards,

Gavin.

[MarkF]

Hi, Tommy, and welcome:wave:

The ko shiki were originally done in armor, and they were taught to imagine the weight of the armor as they did the kata.

Mark

[Fredrik Blom]

For further confusion:

I have only tried Tenjin shinyo ryu at one occasion on a trainingcamp, but when I after that tried kime no kata again (after a shorter "kime no kata break"), I was struck by the similarities. I saw very stron connections between the kata and the ryu(ha).
The TSR instructor (Kubota sensei) didn't mention any connections as far as I remember, but instead talked some about some techniques in Kodokan goshin jutsu, and show the TSR techniques that they came from. I was more into goshin jutsu at that time, so I found it very interesting and also possibly took more notice of this being mentioned.

Anyway, I know next to zero about Sosuishi ryu (sp?) so I can't somment on this.

But last October something interesting (on this subject) happened. I was practising Tsutsumi Hozan ryu with Jan deJong shihan, and was interested in their "suwari waza", a set of five techniques done from a kneeling position. To my great excitement, the five first techniques from kime no kata was presented to me, slightly altered but all to similar to be a co-incidence. Shihan also mentioned these similarities, and even called it a variation on kime-no-kata.

Now, there are several interesting points to this. Apparently there was a meeting at Kodokan where kime-no-kata was "set". This meeting was attended by (afaik) several "masters" (just don't like the term, no implication on the attendants qualifications) from different schools; Sosuishi ryu, Tsutsumi hozan ryu and Tenjin shinyo ryu among several others.

When I started to look into Kime no kata a little bit more after this, I noticed that several taisabaki in the kata are "exact" as some taisabaki in Tsutsumi hozan ryu. I also know that deJong shihan compared the taisabaki from Sosuishi ryu with that of his own school, and found that they (deJong) had all the taisabaki from Sosuichi ryu, and then some.

What I'm aiming at with this, I'm not really sure, but I think it is along the lines that the arts that where involved in early Kodokan developement alll contributed with parts to what became Kodokan Judo, and that the contributing arts themsleves where not unaffected by the other arts either.
Crosstraining certainly did happen even in the "early days, and that some of these ryu(ha) have adopted several things from other schools during those days.

Regards,
Fredrik Blom

[Ben Reinhardt]

After looking into this a bit more deeply, this is what I have found out:

Sosuishi Ryu is a root art of Judo. Ayogi Sensei, the headmaster at the time of Kano Sensei, was a good friend and collaborator with Kano Sensei in designing the Gokyo and the Kodokan Judo Kata. Kime no Kata of KDK Judo are essentially a subset of the Sosuishi Ryu forms, which are in turn just part of the Sosuishi Ryu syllabus, which included weapons training and grappling in armor (Yoroi Kumi Uchi).

Sosuishi Ryu is a deriviative of Takeuchi Ryu, which is a composite art of weapons, grapping (armed and unarmed), etc. The Takeuchi Ryu was also represented at the famous "meeting of masters" that was called by Kano Sensei.

Tenshin Shinyo Ryo is itself a deriviative art with ties to Takeuchi Ryu and Sosuishi Ryu. Takeuchi Ryu is a common root art of many ryu of the later ryu(ha) of the Edo Period of Japan. It is one of the oldest documented extant koryu bujutsu in Japan today.

Hope that helps. What I'm finding is that the similarities between these different ryu are because they have common roots in the older arts that offered a full syllabus to train bushi.

Ben Reinhardt


Originally posted by Fredrik Blom
For further confusion:

I have only tried Tenjin shinyo ryu at one occasion on a trainingcamp, but when I after that tried kime no kata again (after a shorter "kime no kata break"), I was struck by the similarities. I saw very stron connections between the kata and the ryu(ha).
The TSR instructor (Kubota sensei) didn't mention any connections as far as I remember, but instead talked some about some techniques in Kodokan goshin jutsu, and show the TSR techniques that they came from. I was more into goshin jutsu at that time, so I found it very interesting and also possibly took more notice of this being mentioned.

Anyway, I know next to zero about Sosuishi ryu (sp?) so I can't somment on this.

But last October something interesting (on this subject) happened. I was practising Tsutsumi Hozan ryu with Jan deJong shihan, and was interested in their "suwari waza", a set of five techniques done from a kneeling position. To my great excitement, the five first techniques from kime no kata was presented to me, slightly altered but all to similar to be a co-incidence. Shihan also mentioned these similarities, and even called it a variation on kime-no-kata.

Now, there are several interesting points to this. Apparently there was a meeting at Kodokan where kime-no-kata was "set". This meeting was attended by (afaik) several "masters" (just don't like the term, no implication on the attendants qualifications) from different schools; Sosuishi ryu, Tsutsumi hozan ryu and Tenjin shinyo ryu among several others.

When I started to look into Kime no kata a little bit more after this, I noticed that several taisabaki in the kata are "exact" as some taisabaki in Tsutsumi hozan ryu. I also know that deJong shihan compared the taisabaki from Sosuishi ryu with that of his own school, and found that they (deJong) had all the taisabaki from Sosuichi ryu, and then some.

What I'm aiming at with this, I'm not really sure, but I think it is along the lines that the arts that where involved in early Kodokan developement alll contributed with parts to what became Kodokan Judo, and that the contributing arts themsleves where not unaffected by the other arts either.
Crosstraining certainly did happen even in the "early days, and that some of these ryu(ha) have adopted several things from other schools during those days.

Regards,
Fredrik Blom

[Neil Hawkins]

I tend to agree with Rico, there was a huge exchange of technique during the development of Judo.

I have always been told our (Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu-THR) sabaki was part of the original system, however there only used to be five basic movements, now there are six. I am certain that the last was introduced after Shihan De Jong trained with Mochizuki Sensei as it is similar to a Shotokan Karate evasion.

The suwariwaza are probably straight from TSR, I am not sure but I think the second set (antachiwaza) are also from TSR. We have itsutsu no kata but it differs quite radically (I'm told anyway) from the one seen in Judo.

It is one of the problems I come across when trying to research the origins of THR. I don't believe that the teachers of the 19th century were as concerned about purity of the art as those today. I get the impression that practicality was foremost and that a lot was added, incorporated or stolen to improve and 'modernise' the arts. Especially in the build up to a time of conflict, the first that the country had seen for two hundred years.

I'd love to know more about what went on at those meetings with Kano though, I think a very interesting exchange would have occurred.

Regards

Neil

[Fredrik Blom]

Neil: I can confirm that the Itsutsu no kata in Judo differs *some* from the THR Itsutsu. To be quite honest, they are not similar at all from what I've seen of the Judo Itsutsu (have it on video only).

Just for curiosity; what is the sixth added taisabaki in THR?

Regards,
Fredrik Blom

[Neil Hawkins]

Kawashi (dodging) has, I believe anyway, been added fairly recently.

The others, Nagashi, Irimi, Irimi Senkai, O Irimi Senkai and Okuri all appear in the various kata, whereas kawashi is not seen anywhere in the traditional system.

I should stress that this is purely my supposition, I have no proof to back it up.

Neil

[tommysella]

Hi Fredrik!

Did Tsutsumi hozan ryu really attend at the 1906 meeting when they approved Kime no Kata? I couldn't find them in the group picture from that meeting.

regards,
Tommy

[Mekugi]

Originally posted by Ben Reinhardt
After looking into this a bit more deeply, this is what I have found out:

Sosuishi Ryu is a root art of Judo. Ayogi Sensei, the headmaster at the time of Kano Sensei, was a good friend and collaborator with Kano Sensei in designing the Gokyo and the Kodokan Judo Kata. Kime no Kata of KDK Judo are essentially a subset of the Sosuishi Ryu forms, which are in turn just part of the Sosuishi Ryu syllabus, which included weapons training and grappling in armor (Yoroi Kumi Uchi).

Sosuishi Ryu is a deriviative of Takeuchi Ryu, which is a composite art of weapons, grapping (armed and unarmed), etc. The Takeuchi Ryu was also represented at the famous "meeting of masters" that was called by Kano Sensei.

Hey!

I have looked into this a little bit, and from what I understand the Kime no Kata of Kodokan Judo are heavily related to Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. They are not practiced as a subset of Sosuishitsuryu in Japan, that I know of. The Sekiryukan may practice them as a part of the judo they teach, but by no means is that an "auxilary" set of kata for Sosuishitsu ryu. Miss Pat Harrington (sensei) of Australia does mention that Aoyagi (sensei) contributed "movements" to the kata on her webpage, and while this may be true, I haven't been able to verify that they came out of Sosuishitsuryu kata or not. The exact same kata can be found within the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, however, in an almost identical form as far as composition.

-Russ

[Hissho]

Originally posted by Neil Hawkins

.... I don't believe that the teachers of the 19th century were as concerned about purity of the art as those today. I get the impression that practicality was foremost and that a lot was added, incorporated or stolen to improve and 'modernise' the arts. Especially in the build up to a time of conflict, the first that the country had seen for two hundred years.

I'd love to know more about what went on at those meetings with Kano though, I think a very interesting exchange would have occurred.

Regards

Neil

Appropos to this point:


"The world is changing and Ju Jutsu has to change too. I don’t think it’s practical to limit ourselves to one particular style. I no longer see any point in keeping the techniques of each Ju Jutsu school a secret. It would be better to experiment with a whole range of techniques and select the ones you want to use, changing them if necessary. I’d like to take the best techniques from the Yoshin style and the best techniques from a lot of other styles and combine them all to create the ultimate form of Ju Jutsu. Last year after we performed for President Grant, Master Fukuda spoke of bringing Ju Jutsu to the rest of the world. To do that, we can’t rely on just one particular style – we need a combination of the best techniques from all the major schools of Ju Jutsu. That’s what I’d like to teach to the rest of the world."

Jigoro Kano, 1880

From the JudoInfo site. (And my new signature tag)


BTW, Neil, how much in Hancock and Higashi's "Complete Kano JiuJitsu" is similar to present practice of THR?

Kit Leblanc