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View Full Version : TDG #6 (I think, it's been so long!)



Neil Hawkins
17th June 2000, 04:29
Does everybody remember how to play? http://216.10.1.92/ubb/wink.gif

You are the Security Manager of a 4-star hotel. There is a call about a disturbance in the bar, so you decide to investigate. When you get to the bar the four staff you have working tonight are in deep discussion outside the bar. You ask them what the problem is, and they open the door and tell you to look inside.

The bar is a long rectangular room around 100 by 60 feet. The bar itself is at the opposite end from where you are at the door. There are booths down each side except for a small stage, which is empty tonight, located in the centre on the left as you face the bar. There are tables and chairs spread about down the centre of the room.

Tonight was opening night for a new show in the hotel's main ballroom, so of course the bar is full of the crème of society. Everywhere you look you see tuxedos and evening dresses. In the corner you can see at least two of the city's newspaper columnists, plus a guy with a camera from the society pages.

As you scan the room you see the problem, two guys at the bar having an obvious good time; they are at the backslapping and talking loudly stage of inebriation, and their stories, while funny, are crude and offensive in the extreme. You can hear the swearing from the opposite end of the room.

The problem is you recognise the guy on the left, his name (or description) is ‘Skyscraper’. He’s an ex-footballer who went over to WWF, had a falling out with them, something about being too aggressive if you can believe that! Then he became a champion in the UFC, and was undefeated for four years. Lately he has been competing in the ‘World’s Strongest Man’ competition. They had an exhibition in town this weekend. It looks like the guy with him is also from the same background. Skyscraper is 6’8” and weighs in at 300lbs but it’s all muscle, you saw him on the TV carrying a full 44-gallon fuel drum over a 200-yard obstacle course like it was a coke can. His friend is a couple of inches shorter, but just as big, his bicep is as thick as your leg.

You ask your staff what had been done so far. One of them says that he had politely asked the pair to lower their voices, only to be threatened with dismemberment. There had been numerous complaints from the other patrons and it is only a matter of time before trouble breaks out.

What do you do?


[This message has been edited by Neil Hawkins (edited 06-16-2000).]

kagebushi
17th June 2000, 12:48
Hi Neil,

thanks for this one, it really has been a while.

Solutions:

1. "Operation Plan A: Drinks on the House..."
http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif Spike their drinks with laxatives, after this i assume the Gentleman will leave volunteerly to seek the nearst bathroom.

2. "Operation Plan B: Honeytrap"
http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif Locate a Call Girl (4 star hotel, right), cut a deal with her. She asks the Gentleman to come to her room for a drink, and you in return will oversee her activities in the hotel for the near future.

3. "Operation Plan C: Fire drill"
http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif Conduct a fire drill, and take everybody outside for a few minutes. Than choose:
A.Pull togther the entire avaiable staff and play powderpuff football in the bar.
B.Call the local authorities and let them take care of it.

PS: http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif Regarding liability issues for theses solutions, remember the basic 3 rules:
1. Do not get caught.
2. Deny everything.
3. Blame somebody else.





------------------
Mark Brecht

kagebushi
19th June 2000, 06:08
Oh, man...




[This message has been edited by kagebushi (edited 06-19-2000).]

M Clarke
19th June 2000, 06:13
Hi.
May I please reply to this scenario? As a representative of the hotel your responsibilities are to avoid injury to the patrons, including the troublsome ones and to the staff and then to avoid damage to hotel property. Solutions that involve illegal activities are out as are ones that would rely on violence as the primary means. Normal restraint and removal methods aren't going to work. So, I would ask the bar staff to go round to all ther tables and check the needs of the patrons and to keep the attention of the customers occupied, particularly those near the bar. This de-esculates perceved threat to the drunks but keeps staff in the vicinity. I would then speak to the camera man on my way to the bar - see if knows the guy at the bar and fill him in a bit. I would then go round behind the bar. Very politely, even friendly I would advise the two that the hotel can not serve them any more drinks and that they would probably have a better time at another bar. When they react with threats I would ask them to look over at the camera man who would, on cue, lift his camera. I would tell them that we would have to call the police and the reporter will get it all on camera and not only will they go down for assault and other charges but the photos in the TV and in the newspapers would probably end their television careers. I would then say, as you can see, tonight is a special event, not your sort of thing at all.. but that the hotel however values Mr Skyscraper's business and we would love to have him and his partner for dinner at the XX room another night soon, as the hotel's guests. The savings in broken furniture would pay for their dinners. I would also get a photo of him with his arm around the chef's shoulders for PR purposes. Now if they refuse I would say anything more but when they want another drink I would not give it to them. This requires them to physically come round the bar to attack me - a psychological barrier - and attack me with witnesses and a photographer watching. I don't think they would do it.

Neil Hawkins
19th June 2000, 09:50
Mark

A & B are a no-go for some reason, how do you go about plan C? The alarm sounds, everyone runs out. There's media there and they call the networks, pretty soon you've got firetrucks, newscrews, etc, waiting outside the door.

How do you get the guys out and avoid the circus?

PS. Most Hotels would not allow that choice as the negative publicitity caused by a firealarm could damage the marketablity of the Hotel. The GM would string you up.
_______________

Koi,
thanks for the response, couple of things:

First, what if he's a house guest? You can't kick him out anymore, he's got to go back to the room.

Second, the photographer is a stills, newspaper type of guy. He'll say to you sure I'll take photo's, then you see the headline tomorrow "Hotel Management Intimidated by patrons" or worse, "Hotel Bouncer meekly seek assistance from reporters to prevent riot." Not necessarily true but hey this is the media!

These guys love the media attention it bolsters their bad-boy image, if you tell them they are being filmed I bet they play up even more.

What happens if they do come to the bar to attack you, what's your plan B?

And finally. Welcome, but I must point out that it's a rule of this forum that you sign with your full name, if it's not in your profile. Thanks.

Regards

Neil


------------------
The one thing that must be learnt, but cannot be taught is understanding.

M Clarke
21st June 2000, 08:23
Hi.
My apologies for not including my name... a beginner's oversight.
Neil, I take your point about the bad press. Tho I'm not particularly concerned about my reputation in the face of other people's safety so I'd meekly seek a reporter's help to avert a riot. But still to your point, it may not and probably would not work given Messrs Skyscrapers are intent on violence to enhance their reputations. I guess I would have to go for Rohypnol (sp) in the drink and knock em out, assuming I had access to it.

Neil Hawkins
21st June 2000, 09:45
Don't sweat it Mike, no problem. The whole point of these things is to make you think, I will always try and coax a bit extra out, somehow. :)

If you haven't seen these before, check out Joe Svinth's Site, http://www.ejmas.com/jnc/jncframe.htm there is a good decription of TDG's and how to get the most out of them as well as links to others on the web. I know it's good 'cause I wrote it! :D

As for you others that have come, seen and run away!;)

Let's say that Mr Skyscraper's friend gets up to go to the toilet and staggers out by himself. Once he's in the toilet someone locks him in. Now you only have one to deal with.

What do you do?

Regards
Neil

DJM
21st June 2000, 22:24
Hiya..
I thought I might dip my toe in..
:)
4-star hotel, at least 2-bars I guess.. Clear one of them out (smallest one) then...
"Mr Skyscraper, I'm a real big fan, and I was wondering if I could offer you a few drinks on the house.. Obviously not here, it's a little too noisy, but I've poured us a couple drinks in a smaller bar..."
I'll be putting my arm round him, buddy fashion, with a drink in my hand. Relax too, because he'll probably still be in a condition to notice if I'm stiff as a board..
Get him to the other bar, and work on getting him unconscious ASAP... :D
Then you either trolley him up to his room, or have him sleep it off in the drunk tank down the local nick..
Nobody gets hurts (except my head since I have to be believable when I'm drinking with him :cool: and the other bar is nice and quiet (relatively)..
Okay, so what did I miss?! ;)
David

Neil Hawkins
22nd June 2000, 00:02
Dave, good response, I like the way that we are all staying away from the physical option, show's we're thinking.

Ok, Mr Skyscraper is flattered by your offer but can't you see he's talking to his friend, P-Off and leave him alone.

Unlikely I know, but hey this is an exercise, it can't be too easy! What do you do when he won't leave?

Regards
Neil

MarkF
22nd June 2000, 09:48
Hi Neil,
The only way I can think of, is to do what most bars do in this situation: Serve 'em until they do pass out.

Actually, that isn't an unknown, as I have seen people who look scary have no problem buying booze three hours after the local or state ordinances say they can, or continue to serve, but it seems you take your chances no matter what you do. It may be, since at least one Mr. Skyscraper is well-known, to have a wife or friend come down and take them to another party. I've got to admit, that is one hell of a problem. Do you know how annoying it is when a child asks a question and continues to ask "Yeah, but why?":D

Neil Hawkins
22nd June 2000, 09:56
Yeah, but why?:D

And another favourite of mine "are we there yet?"

Regards
Neil

C. Park
24th June 2000, 21:24
Just want to add a couple comments:

I agree with koi's line of thought, as you can't forget your priorities. A fwe things that may help:

1- Call the person's agent or manager. It should be on file, as these guys almost never make their own travel arrangements. A POC should be listed. Managers and agents of these types of celebrities are very used to dealing with this type of problems, even from a distance. They want to avoid harmful publicity and/or paying for damages or lawsuits.

2- Have a staff member videotape the incident. All four star hotels security manager should have access to a both photographic and video camera. The staff member could even pose as a reporter, if you thaink it could work.

3-Call the local police for assistance. Use the non-emergency line. Sit-rep and inquire how it can be handled without incident or publicity.

Also, it may help to know what type of security you have on hand. Many hotels generally use contract security along with in-house, see if anyone is baton or/ OC qualified. Security managers should be, along with powers of arrest.
This is ,granted, the last resort. But depending on how volatile the situation is, you may have no choice. I have experienced an incident once that involved pro football players and a local motorcycle club (rumored to be affiliated with the HA). Talk about exerting leadership skills here- Neil, How about that for a TDG?

Majority of security outfits are very limited in the way of using force, if any. In some ways, they require more intelligence and tact, as they lack in authority. You get what you pay for, in the physical security industry. From the $5.75/hr "yellowjackets" to off-duty police officers, your capabilities are obviously going to vary.

Jeff Cook
25th June 2000, 00:46
I like Koi and Mr. Parks' replies. Practical and relatively uncomplicated.

I am a subject-matter expert in this area; I have owned and operated a security consultation service for high-risk events and nightclubs for the last seven years, without advertising, by word-of-mouth, and have dealt with similar situations as outlined in the scenario.

An attempt should always be made to reason with the patron, REGARDLESS of their social status/public visiblility. If irrational behavior is encountered, it must be dealt with in generally the same way every time, REGARDLESS of size, social status/public visibility. The same standards/techniques should apply to all.

If reasoning does not work, I would ask the photographer to please put his camera in his vehicle. If he refuses, I would still proceed with the plan.

Call competent backup. Have OC/electrified stun batons on hand and readily available, but discreet (this is a policy I follow for every event). Always continue to try to reason with the patron(s). If the situation is "sensitive" as outlined in the scenario, allow the patrons to demonstrate clearly to all in the immediate area that they are being irrational and unresponsive. You have to give the appearance of being extremely patient, professional, and understanding, providing a contrast of the patron's behavior to all onlookers.

After this is established, expain to the patrons exactly what the endstate is going to be, as a last attempt at reasoning. If this does not work, gently encourage them verbally to leave, and then physically (arm on the shoulder or small of the back, in a friendly manner). If they resist actively or passively, you have to "firmly grab the bull by the horns," while observing the local use-of-force matrix. Going into physical technique here would be pointless, as THE SAME TECHNIQUES APPLY REGARDLESS of their size, social status, or public visibility.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Mark Brecht
25th June 2000, 01:27
Welcome back Jeff,

:D see we behaved. I tried, but forgot the "low explosive", so nothing big got started.

PS: My original scenario (which i exchanged for a funnier version) was similar to yours (that is the way i was trained). Except i have no hopes that the reporter would volunteerly put away his camera, no matter how nice you ask him.

MarkF
25th June 2000, 09:58
You also have to remember that it is a bar, after all, and even with all your powers of persuations, physical or no, things do get out of hand. The Tuxes and the gowns will no doubt (a few, anyway) are on the same mission as messrs. Skysrapers, whoever they are. Be it a fourstar hotel, or the local watered down hole-in-the-wall, the ends are the same, so what do you do in that situation? What if someone in the crowd is one of us and wants to "help out?" Some don't respond to stun guns (we've all seen the Rodney King tapes), and the management wouldn't like it anyway, as it is a black mark, no matter what you do. Besides, I'm sure by this time, some of the other patrons have left, the ones who are still around when the action takes place can usually be "compt" by the management for an overnight stay and dinner on them at another date of the patrons choosing. Oh, and one more thing. The "HA" play a big role in the annual "toys for tots" drive, so lets not be too hasty;)

Jeff Cook
25th June 2000, 16:43
Mark B., thanks for the "welcome back." It is good to be home!


Mark F., you certainly are right - things do occasionally get "out of hand." Not sure what you mean here, but my definition of "out of hand" is someone pulls out a gun and starts shooting, or it turns into a riot. Unfortunately I have experienced both of those eventualities on too many occasions.

The only recourse if it "gets out of hand" (meaning it can't be controlled by local security personnel) is to break contact, clear yourself and your team from the building/parking lot, take up a covered position, and call the police (if you haven't already done so). Extract innocents from the melee if it can be done safely, and administer first aid from a covered position.

An integral part of any good plan is to recognize your limitations, and don't plan past your limitations.

Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

MarkF
26th June 2000, 13:07
Hi, Jeff,
I am certainly no expert and I am not sure what the real problem is. We have either two happy drunks who have consumed a quantity that they don't care who is in the room, or two men intent on making a scene. All I really meant was that there is a general plan you put into effect in the same general situations. I think where this gets difficult is when no one wants to break up a nice evening for folks and at some time, the caste of these people plays a role. I am suggesting it be treated like any other, although with more patience. A verbal argument is certainly better than an all out assault. But in this, there is a warning to the patrons of the bar, and that is, that some will leave, and even more will have left. What you are left with is what you deal with, no? "Getting out of hand" is certainly unique, but there are inherent basics to consider. With obviously no experience in this at all, with maybe talking someone out of doing something at a party which may get "the pigs" on our backs, man:D , I was just interested more in how the local police would handle it. The other stuff, eg, getting the patrons out with a "free night" at another time is something which can be used by just about any establishment, be they a four-star or a four-X watering hole. Mark B's idea is certainly preferable before the police arrive but if they have all ready, what do you do?

Nice to see you again, Jeff.

Jeff Cook
26th June 2000, 14:12
Yeah, I definitely like the idea of talking someone out of the bar - physical means is an absolute last resort, regardless of whether the patron is big and famous or not.

I'm not so sure about offering a "free night" to some idiot who is misbehaving, however. Kinda seems like you are rewarding someone for their bad behavior. Give a baby a bottle to make him stop crying, or give him a piece of candy, and the baby learns to cry for his candy (reinforcing a negative behavior with a positive reward). Plus, you've got the spectre of the well-behaved patrons sitting nearby who see a free night being offered to a couple of overgrown juvenile delinquents.

Anyway, I am glad to see that everybody is in agreement on one thing: minimum force necessary to get the job done, coupled with a whole lot of patience!

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Daniel Pokorny
26th June 2000, 20:18
This is a very interesting issue. I have been close to this very situation a few times. Now, this may sound sexist and I may get flamed on this but I have done this little exercise many many times with great success.

Most importantly here is not to give them a target. With another male in the picture, they may feel the need to establish themselves as a force to be dealt with. Bad thing. At this point they are obviously full of themselves and would need little reason to trash the place if they felt threatened by another male. Just asking them to leave politely can be considered a threat to someone in this condition.

This is how I have actually handled this kind of situation:

At this point, surround them with women! ( very non-threatening ). This will usually cause two things to happen. One, their interest tends to shift from violence to entertainment and two, the language seems to come up out of the gutter a notch or two as the quaint little bartender seems to be embarrased by the rough talk (never mind she could actually drink and cuss the worst of sailors under the table). I would call upon the smallest, least threating waitress to lead the resolution. This may sound crazy, but it works!! When you place this small little non-threating person behind the bar or right next to them, the whole situation changes, they now feel completely in control. Then as she talks with them, she mentions how tired she is, how hard it is working two jobs to support her kids as a single parent, etc..... (I think you get my drift here). This usually takes the violent winds out of their sails. They then end up wanting to be either a protector or sympathizer or they want to get the #$&@ out of there because they believe she's looking for another potential father for her kids!

Either way, it's not much fun for a big bad strong guy to give a little (seemingly) helpless woman a hard time regardless of what she asks them to do (please don't make my night any harder than it has been already....). She (they, if double teaming) will get much further with resolving this situation than any male counterpart will..... I know, I've stepped out of many situations like this and let the waitresses work their magic. I still lurk around in case it doesn't pan out, but I've rarely seen it fail.

PS. I hope I don't get too many flames from the women out there. I didn't create the genetic DNA that causes this effect, I've just learned to capitalize on it! Yes, the old adage "kill them with kindness" is still valid and very much alive.

tried and true,

Daniel C. Pokorny

Jeff Cook
26th June 2000, 23:19
Daniel,

Sounds like a great idea! Glad it works for you. Unfortunately, the clubs I have worked with were too busy to spare just one of their female employees for something like this - it takes away from service and eliminates potential tips, which makes the female employee not too happy about it, especially when they have to deal with another idiot, of which they put up with hundreds a night as it is. Besides, that's what they have security personnel for (and I employ female security officers, partially because of what you speak of).

Another thing from my experience that makes me shy away from this technique: I have had to drag male patrons off of female barmaids and other female employees on about 6 occasions, and I literally mean drag them off. We're not talking about getting fresh here - we're talking about punching them in the face, trying to yank their hair out, and trying to choke them - in other words, battery.

I work in some really really bad places, so my techniques are somewhat different. Part of the problem for me implementing your idea is the culture I deal with - a culture that is notoriously violent, disrespectful, and abusive towards women in general.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

C. Park
27th June 2000, 17:59
Mark

I apologize for the undue inference of the HA's being of bad social standing. I have met a quite a few "one percenters" myself and I have nothing but respect for them. But HA's and their affiliated MC's, as a whole, generally don't tolerate much from anyone and quick to defend any of their brethren- regardless if they were in the right or wrong. This was the case at a very crowded nightclub one summer evening, when a large pro football player grabbed the rear of a one of the MC member's girlfriend. The short version is that 20 to 30 extremely large individuals in a altercation doesn't make for a pleasant evening on the job.

I also agree with Jeff that I would not risk involving women. What happens when they find it is a trick? Even if they are trained to handle themselves, I don't recommend it. The bottomline is if it gets violent, they will get hurt badly. It's the ratio that concerns me, not the sex. I wouldn't go 1 for 1, given the group's profile, no matter how quickly back up can get there. Besides, how many well-trained females that are knock-outs work in the average hotel security dept or contract security company? Given these qualifications, they are more likely to be in principle security or private investigative sectors, as it is a heck of a lot more lucrative.

Daniel Pokorny
27th June 2000, 18:30
Originally posted by Jeff Cook
Daniel,

Sounds like a great idea! Glad it works for you. Unfortunately, the clubs I have worked with were too busy to spare just one of their female employees for something like this - it takes away from service and eliminates potential tips, which makes the female employee not too happy about it, especially when they have to deal with another idiot, of which they put up with hundreds a night as it is. Besides, that's what they have security personnel for (and I employ female security officers, partially because of what you speak of).

Another thing from my experience that makes me shy away from this technique: I have had to drag male patrons off of female barmaids and other female employees on about 6 occasions, and I literally mean drag them off. We're not talking about getting fresh here - we're talking about punching them in the face, trying to yank their hair out, and trying to choke them - in other words, battery.

I work in some really really bad places, so my techniques are somewhat different. Part of the problem for me implementing your idea is the culture I deal with - a culture that is notoriously violent, disrespectful, and abusive towards women in general.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

=======================================================

Jeff,

I'm sorry, I was assuming (we know where that takes us) that the first line in the original post "You are the Security Manager of a 4-star hotel." Meant that the usual bar culture didn't apply to this situation.

Certainly, if the patronage is indeed the "notoriously violent, disrespectful, and abusive towards women in general." type, then by all means, the tactics used would be much different as well. I thought we were dealing with a "higher class" environment here.

In this case then I would place a call to the police explaining the situation and relaying the fact that an employee was already threatened. Once they arrived, I would approach the "gentelmen" and ask them to leave. According to the original post they have already threatened an employee and this is more than enough cause to refuse them service. Which if memory serves, you have a right to refuse service to anyone. If all hades breaks out, so be it. You tried to be the nice guy.

Regards
Daniel C. Pokorny

Jeff Cook
27th June 2000, 20:12
Daniel,

You are certainly correct, and I apologize! Thank you for getting me back on track. I should have re-read the original scenario.

I agree whole-heartedly with your last post.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

MarkF
28th June 2000, 10:08
Hey Charles,
It was a joke, bud. Really. They do that "toys for tots" thing once a year, but it was only a joke.

Sorry.:o

Daniel Pokorny
28th June 2000, 18:10
Jeff,

No need to apologize, I have also been in 4 star hotels that have that type of clientele. I really enjoy these scenarios, they often remind me of situations I've actually been in. It's always interesting to see what resolutions other people come up with........


Regards,

Daniel C. Pokorny

Tetsutaka
28th June 2000, 18:24
Mark,

I like your scenarios best - so when do I get to go out and make a nuisance of myself at the bar you're "securing"?

There's this wonderful girl named Julie that I'd love for you to send over - uhhh... wait... never mind... I married her...

This is cause for celebration - everybody - drinks are on me!

[except you big fella nothign but prune juice for you]

[Edited by Tetsutaka on 06-28-2000 at 12:26 PM]

Neil Hawkins
5th July 2000, 09:53
Sorry guy's I got sent away with work at short notice and haven't been able to keep up to date.

Jeff, I think Daniel brought it up but the response you first put up is perhaps a little OTT for this scenario, but assuming we go that way, there's a couple of things that need mentioning. Firstly the laying on of the hands as you so elegantly put it could be construde as provocation and cause them to explode. Now I agree that techniques should still work but someone this big is going to cause a lot of damage prior to being brought down.

Other points (in random order) include:

Tasers, all well and good, but I'm sure you've seen people that didn't go down when stunned, look at Rodney King.

Chemicals, if they are on steriods and have an adverse reaction to the mickey you slip them, you could be looking at manslaughter. i don't believe any juristriction would condone drugging people like that. For the same reasons as above Mace and it's variants may prove in effective and I would certainly want to clear the area before deploying them.

I like Daniels idea, my first response was to get a non-threatening female to talk to them, possibly even entice them into another room where the cavalry await. Every effort should be made to talk to them before resorting to violence.

Two other options for discussion, water down their drinks and keep them at a reasonable level of coherance, or, boost their drinks until they are too drunk to do anything. Comments?

I have had a similar experience although with only one person and managed to talk them out, it took 30 minutes but by the end he was my mate and left quite happy. Now I agree that that amount of time is too much in a club environment, but in a classy bar, you get a lot of respect from not ever resorting to physical stuff.

I'll get back with a final wrap up in the next day or so.

Regards

Neil

Jeff Cook
5th July 2000, 14:23
Neil,

Welcome back! You are right - my response was over the top for this scenario.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Neil Hawkins
9th July 2000, 02:49
Ok, I realise that this was a hard scenario and I made it worse as things went on by trying to force a physical confrontation, but that's the nature of these things. The whole benefit of these games is that they make you think outside the square. There is no correct answer, but there are a whole lot of less desirable ones. Anyway below is my solution, please feel free to comment...


Do everything possible to resolve the issue quietly, talk to them, at length if they allow it. If they are immediately aggressive back down and give them some time, then try the female approach, which is to get a small, attractive , non-threatening woman to talk to them. She should be polite and friendly but should not if possible elicite a sexual response (the clothing and attitude are important). It has been my experience that a female operative is indispensible in a security team, if she has the right attitude. Try to get them to leave, if not try to entice them out to a less public area.

In the meantime you ensure that Hotel Management (as high as possible) has agreed that the situation needs to be resolved and is willing to accept the responsibility (possibly in writing) for any actions taken by you and the team (damages and injuries, etc).

Notify the local Police, hopefully you have cultivated a good relationship with them and they send some assistance, ask for plain clothes as they provide the least visible threat. Suggest that they leave their firearms with someone outside. They will probably resist this, but explain the ramifications, if necessary to the senior officer on duty. Other police remain out of sight and provide radio backup and the firepower should the worst happen. The last thing you want in a room full of societies finest is a loaded gun, especially when struggling with a strong opponent.

Round up all the largest staff in the Hotel, porters, Kitchen Stewards, whoever. After all a large police response is unlikely, and numbers are a good equaliser. Again management approval is essential. Ensure that medical staff are available, in the likelihood of injuries to either side.

Discuss the plan in detail, basically you want the five trained security personnel to take the lead and control the neck and arms. As soon as they make a move the rest of the staff grab legs and arms and (hopefully) subdue them, the police officers would then step in and apply handcuffs. Drag them outside and allow the cops to take them away. Everyone should be clear on what is required of them, rehearse if necessary (though do it somewhere out of the public eye). The team should infiltrate slowly and surround Our Heroes without alarming them. You clearly identify yourself and the police officers and ask them politely to leave. If they refuse, threaten you in any way, or become agressive, give the signal and everyone dives in and holds on for the ride.

Ideally they have been enticed out of the bar and this happens out of sight, but if necessary it is done at the bar. Be ready with complimentary drinks for the other patrons and a senior staff member should apologise for the situation and try to generate goodwill.

Obviously this is a worst case scenario and Our Heroes should see that 20-2 odds are against them and calm down rapidly, but if not you want them face down and at least five people holding them down. Owing to their size I would think possibly two per limb would be required, don't relax once the 'cuffs are on as I've seen strong men snap the links. The object is to get them out and calm the crowd, that way the publicity will be minimal and hopefully positive.

Regards

Neil

M Clarke
12th July 2000, 14:17
Hi Neil and all.
I wonder if there is going to be a best answer to this particular scenario - seems to me that Neil has thrown in all the worst possible conditions!
I would like to respond to MarkF's posts - two points actually - firstly, the situation has been brought to a head by their loud and obnoxious behaviour and the complaints from other patrons, so you can't continue to serve till they pass out (and given the body weight, that might be a while) and secondly I would avoid as a matter of extreme importance, letting any other patron get involved.
I worked in a bar for a while where we had a similar sort of problem - a mix of suits and leather, Security staff were not a matter of course in those days, bar staff were expected to stop the constant trouble. Our best response was diffusing trouble before it started - forcing one of the antagonists to drink in another part of the hotel before they got to punching, that sort of thing. If things got out of hand, we'd call the police.

So, in this case, I think the only thing you can do is try to pursuade them in a friendly fashion. Allow an out for them in the form of free dinner. Use a stick in the form of the bad press. Use the bar as an physical authority boundry they have to cross to initate action. Call police. And introduce their eye sockets and temples to a baton if they jump the bar. I have a question for the professionals at this point: do you let them walk out themselves and possibly smash something on the way or do you escort them and risk the original situation being restored - big pissed guys and your staff facing up?
Regards

M Clarke
12th July 2000, 14:27
Sorry about that. Weird tho, a whole bunch of posts didn't appear in the thread till after I posted my last message. So I'm a bit slow. Loooking forward to the next TDG very much. Thank you for the thought-provoking excercise, Neil.
Regards

Neil Hawkins
13th July 2000, 00:18
Mike,

Probably a caching issue, I had a similar problem after the crash, I kept getting the site down message, even though other members were saying they could get in. Finally I pressed refresh on my browser and it magically worked. (Don't tell anyone, but I'm a Computer Support Professional so this was a bit embarassing! :o)

As to your comments, all valid. I would definately let them walk out under their own steam and only interfere if I thought they were going to hurt someone or the damages would exceed the damages caused by my interfering.

Difficult descision, but to me security work has always been about solutions, I don't mind if the guy thinks he's won so long as the goal is achieved. If I let my ego get in the way it's about winning and me being better, that leads to more problems.

I don't like telling war stories, unless it's to illustrate a point, so...

I was working in a 4 star Hotel similar to the one described except that there was just me and no on-site backup. There was a guy exceedingly drunk and upsetting people. I enticed him outside so I could talk to him and was aware that the six guys he was with were beginning to get figety. I spoke to him, listened to his grievances, but would not allow him to re-enter the bar. Eventually he lashed out with a punch, I saw it coming early and let it come in, riding it to the max, turning and stumbling, creating distance. I was ready to launch into him but waited to see what he did. He smiled and turned and walked off taking his buddies with him. They were backslapping and happy, they had also left the bar.

They thought they had one up on me. I know that I got one over on them because I got seven troublemakers out of the bar with no damage to either side (the slight bruise on my cheek was nothing).

Now I would not recommend this course of action, but it did work for me at that time. Had I reacted in any other way it would have been on for young and old and 7-1 odds against me are not what I would call ideal. ;) Ego is bad in any situation.

Regards

Neil