PDA

View Full Version : holding swords



poryu
20th January 2001, 15:01
I am interested if any styles hook the little finger of the left hand over the end of the Kashira when holding a katana.

also if there are specifics in holding the handle in set ways in different schools.

In the Kukishinden Ryu we hold the hand le tight-ish with te ring and middle finger and loosely with te thumb, index, and little finger. This is to aid in absorbing the shock when swords clash. (ref for this is the UK Bujinkan Taikai 1992)

Any info would be greatly accepted

socho
20th January 2001, 17:29
Whether you hook your finger over the kashira would depend on the length of the tsuka and the size of your hands. It is more important to have the proper distance between your hands. I think Guy Power has a translated article by Nakamura-sensei on his website about proper grip, also some good comments about sword length and other things. http://www.trifox.com/aux/kenshinkan/

poryu
20th January 2001, 20:18
thnaks for that i will look at it.

just had a phone conversation with a friend and he said he was once told it is also to stop a blood/sweat soaked tsuka sliding back through the hands. interesting thought but he could not remember when or where he was told that

hyaku
21st January 2001, 00:02
Originally posted by poryu
thnaks for that i will look at it.

just had a phone conversation with a friend and he said he was once told it is also to stop a blood/sweat soaked tsuka sliding back through the hands. interesting thought but he could not remember when or where he was told that
....................

As the Japanese sword is well overlooked as a thrusting weapon using its curve to thrust up and into/round. It might be worth mentioning that the small finger use is one method of stopping the weapon sliding through the hands as you thrust.

I use your method of ring middle a thumb in a Hiki taosu method of cutting (pulling down cut). But I very much doubt it's advantages of absorbing shock. Above all flexibility must be maintained to hold on to a weapon. Perhaps a good tested example of this is Kendo in Kensen no sen. The use of the first three fingers only tend to lock up the wrist.

Hyakutake Colin

Just some guy
21st January 2001, 09:38
Mr. Hyakutake:
As the Japanese sword is well overlooked as a thrusting weapon using its curve to thrust up and into/round. It might be worth mentioning that the small finger use is one method of stopping the weapon sliding through the hands as you thrust.

Me:
I don't care that much myself for using the pinky to support the sword while thrusting. I was working on this once with a bokken and wound up breaking my little finger (though yes hitting the wall while thrusting wasn't the best exicution of technique I've ever done but, you should have seen what I did to him! :) ). I prefer griping the Tsuka low then rolling my hand over and supporting with the edge of my palm while thrusting. It's abit ackward at first but, it saves my fingers. It also allows me to bit a lot more of my body weight into the thrusts.

Richard Elias
23rd January 2001, 02:07
"Hold with the right hand first,
assist with the left hand softly.
As if to squeeze out water from a towel
Softly, but not too loose.
Little finger on and off."

Takenouchi Hangan Ryu

Karl Friday
23rd January 2001, 14:37
Originally posted by poryu
I am interested if any styles hook the little finger of the left hand over the end of the Kashira when holding a katana.

This is probably the most important basic point in the Kashima-Shinryu grip--everything else about the way we hold a sword is intuitive enough that very few students need correction. Holding the hilt so that the little finger of the left hand is half on and half off the end serves three main functions: it maximizes the space between your hands, for maximum leverage; it keeps the end of the hilt covered, so it can't get hung up on a belt or sleeve; and it has some more esoteric functions in terms of application of ki.

poryu
24th January 2001, 17:27
Thanks to all for there information.

at least i know i am doing something slightly right with my swordsmanship these days.

poryu
24th January 2001, 17:29
hi all again

i forgot this in my original question

when i did aikido i also did some aikiken (aikido sword)

we used to point with the right index finger. we were told this was a projection of ki.

do any other styles use this method of pointing withthe right index, be it for style looks good, ki etc etc

JRSims
24th January 2001, 20:46
Hello Paul,

It has been a long time since I practiced any Bujinkan-related sword work. However, I remember the subject of extending the index fingers on the sword hilt coming up once during a training session with Muramatsu-sensei.

His take on it was that basically, extending your fingers while gripping a sword just made it that much easier for your oppponent to cut them off for you.

Best,

John Sims
Davis, CA

john mark
26th January 2001, 21:51
Originally posted by Richard Elias
"Hold with the right hand first,
assist with the left hand softly.
As if to squeeze out water from a towel
Softly, but not too loose.
Little finger on and off."

Takenouchi Hangan Ryu

Mr. Elias,

Please foregive my ignorance, but does "[assisting] with the left hand" mean that the right hand is the power hand and the left hand is the guiding hand?

Best,

Richard Elias
28th January 2001, 23:18
Mr. Mark,

Actually, that was a quote I got out of a book about Takenouchi Hangan Ryu, so I can only assume that's what was implied.

But, in our school that is exactly what it means.

Chad Bruttomesso
29th January 2001, 15:32
Mr. Richardson,

My humble opinion regarding aikiken is that the only reason to point your index fingers is for esoteric reasons (beyond me), for show or improper training. Having trained in several different places throughout the world (in Aikido) I can honestly say that I have seen numerous amazingly ,um.. interesting things done with a sword that have made me cringe. Also, I agree with John Sims in that it does make it significantly easier for opponent to slice into your fingers if they are sticking out. This was demonstrated to me when I first started developing the habit of pointing my index fingers during aikiken practice. After the swelling went down and I could curl my fingers again I made sure to no longer point them. Again, just my opinion. Have a nice day.

Thank you,

Daniel Pokorny
29th January 2001, 17:01
Also, please remember that Aiki-ken has much more to do with the extension of your (taijutsu, sp?) "empty hands" than it does with training you to become a great swordsman or "swords-person". (Trying to stay politically correct here).

I must concur though that my sensei(s) also find that pointing fingers, wide spread elbows etc.... make for great targets! You will only leave them out there once training with these folks...... unless of course you're into pain...


Regards,
Dan P. - Mongo

Tony Peters
31st January 2001, 08:26
Originally posted by Daniel Pokorny
Also, please remember that Aiki-ken has much more to do with the extension of your (taijutsu, sp?) "empty hands" than it does with training you to become a great swordsman or "swords-person". (Trying to stay politically correct here).

I must concur though that my sensei(s) also find that pointing fingers, wide spread elbows etc.... make for great targets! You will only leave them out there once training with these folks...... unless of course you're into pain...


Regards,
Dan P. - Mongo

After 5 years of aikido training I switched and I'm well into my second year of Koryu and iai training. I have on occasion been back to aikido however I refrain if possible from participating in any aikiweapons related classes as they are so far removed for any real weapons work. I was getting distracted looking at the 'whole" left in the movements. Now as a teaching tool for Aiki principles it is great just don't expect it to be of any use outside a dojo. On the subject of fingers. My pinky seems to rest in the same position as Dr. Friday described; half on half off. So much so that I have worn the finish one side of my kashira. As for fingers pointing that was taught to me only as a guide not to be used at any time exept to insure that ones hands were in the proper location. the front finger on the right hand seems to end up in light contact with the tsuba and not activly "grasping the tsuka. However this is just my observations and not anything official.
Peace
Tony

szczepan
31st January 2001, 15:38
Originally posted by Richard Elias
Mr. Mark,

Actually, that was a quote I got out of a book about Takenouchi Hangan Ryu, so I can only assume that's what was implied.

But, in our school that is exactly what it means.

So there isn`t any universal rules about that? I heard left hand gives power and right hand gives direction. Why it depends from style/school?

Walker
31st January 2001, 16:56
I think it is a matter of one way or the other. Either the right hand is the power hand or the left is, but not both. A style will be based on one or the other.

Daniel Pokorny
31st January 2001, 20:01
Originally posted by Tony Peters

After 5 years of aikido training I switched and I'm well into my second year of Koryu and iai training. I have on occasion been back to aikido however I refrain if possible from participating in any aikiweapons related classes as they are so far removed for any real weapons work. I was getting distracted looking at the 'whole" left in the movements. Now as a teaching tool for Aiki principles it is great just don't expect it to be of any use outside a dojo. On the subject of fingers. My pinky seems to rest in the same position as Dr. Friday described; half on half off. So much so that I have worn the finish one side of my kashira. As for fingers pointing that was taught to me only as a guide not to be used at any time exept to insure that ones hands were in the proper location. the front finger on the right hand seems to end up in light contact with the tsuba and not activly "grasping the tsuka. However this is just my observations and not anything official.
Peace
Tony
[/B]

Tony,

I have been doing both MJERI and Aikido for about five years and also some Kenjutsu when we can get Hooker sensei to release some of those secrets of his! HA! I also sneak in with a Toyama-ryu group once in awhile so I think I have an idea what you mean. Everytime I paired up for Aikiken my MJERI side would come out and the mind and body would tend to go their own separate ways. Hate when that happens!

For me though, I believe it's really important to continue my practice of both aiki-weapons and MJERI. I feel a great benefit from both, although I found this very difficult to do at first. The hardest part was to recognize that they serve a different purpose and to be comfortable with that. Having a great sensei really helps in these matters as well because they've already been through what you're feeling. Once I realized what the Aiki-weapons are really for, Aikido training (duh, sometimes I can be a little slow), the conflicting feelings I had vanished and now I can really enjoy and benefit from the practice of both....
Anyway, that's how it is for me right now. Down the road, who knows??

Regards,
Dan P. - Mongo

poryu
1st February 2001, 16:07
Thanks for the new imput.

I spioke with my old Aikido instructor last week when i bumped in to him. He says sticking the finger out whileholding thesword is related to Ki channeling as already mentioned as a form of escoteric practise.

But as John Sims says it can get that finger cut off. The Kukishinden seems to like its fingers hidden as in the Dakentaijutsu (Taijutsu) where the fingers are folded in a fist we call Shikan Ken.

John you have some communication i believe with onof my students (Neil Richardson).

I too have also worn off the black finish off the Kashira of the Iaito that I use a lot.

The reason I asked this question wasbecause I have gone indepth into to my sword training a lot this past year. I have two external students that i just do weapons with and one other that is in a wheel chair i teach some sword to. Just thought if I was going to be spending a lot of time on the sword with them i would do a little extra research into subjecs we were doing

Thanks all

john mark
4th February 2001, 18:33
Originally posted by Richard Elias
Mr. Mark,

Actually, that was a quote I got out of a book about Takenouchi Hangan Ryu, so I can only assume that's what was implied.

But, in our school that is exactly what it means.

Mr. Elias,

Would appreciate if you would provide me with the title and ISBN for the above referenced book. I have been looking for it but my research skills are not up to par.

Is Takenouchi Hangan Ryu related to Takenouchi Ryu?

Thanks,

Richard Elias
4th February 2001, 21:22
Mr. Mark,

I don't have the book myself, it belongs to my teacher. I tried to find a copy of the book through numerous rescourses to no avail. I pretty-much gave up on being able to find it, and no longer have my notes. There was no ISBN #. It is long out of print. The actual title is "Bugei Ju-Happan". There is also a english title refering to 18 Samurai arts, but I don't remember the wording exactly. The name of the author is Masayoshi Nakajima. He himself is/was the Soke of the school (and yes he actually uses the term Soke) the school is related to Takenouchi Ryu, but I don't know how far back. Hangan, I believe, is the faminly name of the styles founder. I had just borrowed the book from my teacher and copied some quotes out if it.

Here's another quote from the same book;

"It may happen many times
that being aware of his teachings is one thing,
and doing just as he teaches is another"

And another;

"It would be regretable
if a warrior should be killed
by so sudden an attack
as he could not draw his sword"

And;

"In any trifling action
you shoull not forget your enemy.
As it is an uncommon time now"

Just thought I'd share.

Tony Peters
4th February 2001, 22:54
Mongo,
My problem came because in addition to MJER I am also studying SMR Jodo which is drasticly different from anything Aiki related. What little Takeuchi Ryu that I have had is just meaner than aikido, same basic movements (the body only moves in so many ways).

Goon Jhuen Weng
5th February 2001, 07:39
Darn! So one beat me to this topic that I wanted to start. Anyway, I just came back from a 1 week iaido seminar and had the great fortune of meeting a sensei of the kageyama ryu. He was observing me while I tested swinging one of the shinkens for sale as the president of nosyuiaido brought a couple in for the seminar and he told me that my grip was incorrect. I was using the "little finger right at the end of the tuska gashira" grip and he said that my hands should be only 2 fingers apart from each other. Does anyone out there think that that's wierd? I mean, I've always believed in Draeger's words in his book Japanese Swordsmanship that the ideal handgrip should be that of the little finger covering the tsuka gashira but a kageyama ryu exponent changed my perception...and my grip now of course. I'm starting to think that the hand grip is a major point within the koryu and that each ryu has a different and specific way of holding the sword. Comments from anyone?

Richard Elias
5th February 2001, 08:24
I believe it really depends on the manner in which the sword is going to be used. The particulars of the style. For our sword work, a space of only two fingers would not do. It would greatly limit what I could do with the sword. As it is, I have a 14 inch handle and my right hand is just below the fuchi and the left at the bottom with little finger half on/off. That makes for almost two hand-widths between my hands. It allows for alot of leverage and manuverability. Again, depending on how you use the sword in your particular style it may be different. One is no better than the other, it's just all in how you use it.

szczepan
5th February 2001, 11:57
Is it common to change a grip depending of if I'm attacking or defending myself? I was told to keep hands pretty together when attacking and " two hand-widths between my hands" when defending(i.e. when push side attacking weapon...)

thanks

john mark
5th February 2001, 12:04
Mr. Weng,

Nin hao. Nin shi bu shi zhong guo ren? Wo shi Taishan ren.

I'll try to respond by quoting Nishioka Tsuneo, Menkyo Kaiden Shinto Muso Ryu.

"Once, my teacher, Shimizu Takaji Sensei (1896-1978), told me not to copy the jo practiced by his junior fellow student Otofuji Ichizo Sensei. Unless one carefully reflects on what Shimizu Sensei really meant, this statement can be easily misunderstood. He knew that there were some differences between his way of using jo and tachi, and the way in which Otofuji Sensei used these weapons. Even in kata bujutsu,[2] it is very natural for there to be differences in the form. That's because different people have different levels of technical understanding and different mindsets. This leads them to make movements in slightly different ways and they pass on these individual characteristics in their teaching. Shimizu Sensei was afraid that young students would notice these differences, get confused or suspicious, and think that one way or the other was wrong. He seemed to have been concerned about the inevitable errors that result when a student is unable or unwilling to follow just one teacher. He urged me to follow a single teacher, to the greatest extent possible, and to avoid confusing myself unnecessarily by looking around at other teachers." Footnotes ommitted. See http://koryu.com/library/tnishioka1.html for the balance of the article.

Zhu Ni Gong Xi Fa Cai,

Karl Friday
5th February 2001, 21:09
Originally posted by Walker
I think it is a matter of one way or the other. Either the right hand is the power hand or the left is, but not both. A style will be based on one or the other.

Nope, even *that* differs from ryuha to ryuha. A cardinal principle of Kashima-Shinryu, for example, is that *both* hands should be used in perfect balance with one another (this is one of the main manifestations of the principle of Yin & Yang as One).

5th February 2001, 22:34
Guys,

Interesting discussion. Maybe some of you will appreciate this story.

I once asked my Shindo Yoshin ryu jujutsu instructor, Takamura Yukiyoshi this very question comparing Yanagi ryu with his training in Shinkage ryu. He just smiled and then admonished me a bit saying that the limitations of language are often the source of confusion in things such as this. He said " Tobysan, this is a guideline for comprehending the fluid nature of swordwork, not an unbendable rule." He stated that in truth both hands steer and both apply power in varying degrees during different parts of the stroke. This however was impossible to describe with words. It is only felt and then improved through hard training built upon a strong foundation of basics. He also stated that in various ryuha the teaching methodologies and explainations may give the appearance of vastly different techniques but that in truth all excellent swordwork is much more similar than different.

Frustrated with my continuous barrage of questions he encouraged me to continue my training in Yanagi ryu kenjutsu with more feeling and less questions. I think his final comment was something like "Do you drive Angier Sensei crazy like this or just me?

I shut up! :)

Tobs