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luar
7th August 2008, 15:05
I actually won this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320276746328&_trksid=p3907.m32&_trkparms=tab%3DWatching) last week and it arrived yesterday. It looks like it's never been worn. It's big on me around the mid-section but I'm sure it will shrink a bit in the wash. I just need to write my name on it.

Leelanau
10th August 2008, 20:42
Ahhh! I'm sure it's the position of WSKO and many branches that our dogis should never be up for public auction. Shipping from San Francisco, eh? Maybe I should have a word with the SF branch. ...I don't remember them having any students that are 6'1" and 232 lbs, but it's still something that probably concerns them.

luar
10th August 2008, 21:13
Ahhh! I'm sure it's the position of WSKO and many branches that our dogis should never be up for public auction. Shipping from San Francisco, eh? Maybe I should have a word with the SF branch. ...I don't remember them having any students that are 6'1" and 232 lbs, but it's still something that probably concerns them.


It is totally brand new and you can see the extension added to the lower cuff it to make it bigger. I have to take it in to a tailor to see if they can remove it but overall it fits great on the shoulders.

BTW, who siad this actually came from the SF branch?

Leelanau
10th August 2008, 22:34
BTW, who siad this actually came from the SF branch?
Considering that it takes a sensei to order this sort of thing, my first guess that it would be from a kenshi (or early quitter?) in San Francisco, as that is where it was sent from.

I'm glad that it was bought by a Shorinji Kempo kenshi, but it was reeeeally irresponsible of the seller.

luar
10th August 2008, 22:46
Considering that it takes a sensei to order this sort of thing, my first guess that it would be from a kenshi (or early quitter?) in San Francisco, as that is where it was sent from.

I'm glad that it was bought by a Shorinji Kempo kenshi, but it was reeeeally irresponsible of the seller.

I don't agree with this line of thought. I have a right to sell whatever it is I own. Again there is nothing to definitely say it came from any branch in the San Francisco or how it was acquired. Based on the email exchanges I had wit the seller, it looked like it was from an early quitter.

Leelanau
10th August 2008, 23:03
I don't agree with this line of thought. I have a right to sell whatever it is I own. Again there is nothing to definitely say it came from any branch in the San Francisco or how it was acquired. Based on the email exchanges I had wit the seller, it looked like it was from an early quitter.
WSKO (and my sensei) frowns upon selling official Shorinji Kempo items. This includes the Fukudoku-Hon; I'm sure it extends to dogi as we do not want posers practicing or teaching with our official dogi as "evidence" for their supposed knowledge of Shorinji Kempo. This may sound pessimistic, but this sort of thing does happen.

Perhaps there needs to be a section in the contract signed by kenshi that stipulates that official Shorinji Kempo material should not be placed on an open market or exchanged with non-kenshi. Maybe it is there already, but it has been 13 years since I signed my contract and I was 6. Anyway, WSKO need not get their panties in a bundle if they're expecting people to abide by something that has not been established as contractual.
...Would someone please confirm whether such a statement is in the paperwork?

Ade
11th August 2008, 08:19
Dear All

Gassho

This is a tricky one and breaks down into 3 parts.

Firstly it's anyone's right to sell their stuff as second hand, if that happens to be Shorinji kempo trademarked stuff it still doesn't matter because it's sold as second hand (thus the low price for this gi that would have cost $100 US to buy new.)

Second straightforward one, nobody who isn't in WSKO can create and sell trademarked material for their own profit.

Third and final tricky one, and I've taken legal advice on this, it would appear that trademark abuse can only take place by someone outside the organisation making profit by "mis-representing" goods produced.
So; theoretically; someone inside the organisation who makes Shorinji Kempo trademarked goods for use by members of the organisation would not be held to be in abuse of the trademark, because they are a member of the organisation by dint of payment and are not misrepresenting their goods.

But you can guarantee that somebody wouldn't be very happy about it and; theoretically; you could be thrown out of WSKO for not following instructions.

Kesshu

Ade

Leelanau
11th August 2008, 09:32
So; theoretically; someone inside the organisation who makes Shorinji Kempo trademarked goods for use by members of the organisation would not be held to be in abuse of the trademark, because they are a member of the organisation by dint of payment and are not misrepresenting their goods.Unfortunately the situation you propose doesn't entirely apply, as it's hard to be very restrictive about your customers on Ebay. If someone advertised their old Shorinji Kempo stuff in a kenshi-filled environment, such as perhaps the Facebook group or this forum (though it wouldn't be the first place for prospective customers to search), there wouldn't be as much of a problem.


But you can guarantee that somebody wouldn't be very happy about it and; theoretically; you could be thrown out of WSKO for not following instructions.


I think that's the one that really matters. We might not agree with the views or decisions of WSKO (or be legally bound to them), but as students we are still obligated to act in agreement with the organization that we are indebted toward. It's an issue that, if you don't agree about, should be argued in the organization or be totally avoided altogether. It's a pity that new students might not have heard all of WSKO's views or feel obligated to obey.

To oldbie North American students: finding official Shorinji Kempo items on Ebay makes Hagata-sensei cry. (Or at least grimace.)

paul browne
11th August 2008, 11:53
Gassho,

I'm sorry folks but every time this topic comes up it makes us seem at best niaive and at worst, dare I say, cultist.
With the exception of the Kyohan and some of the sleeve patches I am aware of NO item from Shorinji Kempo that is available only through a single WSKO controlled outlet. Since the material is produced by Hombu and, as copyright holders, allowed by them to be sold through independant commercial outlets they can't object to there being available on an open market.
Thus you can buy Hombu produced DVD's and Books from commercial outlets all over the internet. You can buy them in shops and you can buy them second hand. None of these outlets require proof of WSKO membership.
Most of the Shorinji Kempo liturature i possess was obtained in this way, either from normal stores whilst in Japan or from the internet. Were there no second hand market for these items some of the things I possess would no longer be available.
As far as I'm aware anyone can buy a Gi from Ozaki (if they can negotiate the ordering process) not just Branch Masters, again without proof of WSKO membership (I stand to be corrected here).
Whoever sold the Gi will have done so in the reasonable expectation that it would be purchased by a legitimate Kenshi, not the evil genius waiting to dominate the world disguised as us. If someone was so desperate (and stupid enough) to try and use a Gi to pretend to teach Shorinji Kempo then he would simply need to copy the badge off the internet and get one made (thus breaking copy right law). If it was a former Kenshi teaching in an unauthorised fashion then they will already own a Gi. Both can be dealt with by other means.
Frankly I always find this handwringing, about something we can do absolutely nothing about and which causes us individually or as an organisation little or no aggravation, extremely embarrassing. It makes us look small minded and petty.
Kesshu
Paul

Ade
11th August 2008, 13:42
Dear All

Gassho

Yeess....I agree with what Paul said...:cry:

Paul...why aren't you going to summer camp?....that way I could administer the WSKO registered valium injection come chill pill personally and ease you down off the high horse.....:p

Kesshu

luar
11th August 2008, 14:46
Frankly I always find this handwringing, about something we can do absolutely nothing about and which causes us individually or as an organisation little or no aggravation, extremely embarrassing. It makes us look small minded and petty.


Thank you Paul (as well as Ade) for eloquently pointing this out because I really was very uncomfortable with the earlier responses as they were too generalized for outsiders. More important is the use of the word "contract" as it is highly misleading and inaccurate in how it was used in this thread.

sean dixie
11th August 2008, 15:00
Paul Browne - the voice of reason:D

Ewok
11th August 2008, 15:22
Heeey, didn't I post in this thread? Where's my post gone!

Leelanau
11th August 2008, 17:37
Frankly I always find this handwringing, about something we can do absolutely nothing about and which causes us individually or as an organisation little or no aggravation, extremely embarrassing. It makes us look small minded and petty.
But... but... just because it is legally viable doesn't mean that it is good to do!
It seems that myself and the ones who grump about this sort of thing are rather more traditionalist; I've known of far too many false Shorinji Kempo branches and I don't want to encourage the behavior by allowing any of our official material to be publicly available for such people. It may sound petty, but I think most quasi-religious organizations don't want random people masquerading as members who misrepresent their ideals for the pursuit of financial gain. It would be nice if the members did things that didn't open those doors to people (like not selling their Fukudoku-hon on Ebay).

paul browne
11th August 2008, 18:39
Gassho,

Mr. Browne has now been forcefed his medication and normal service has been resumed:).

Leela, I didn't mean this to come across as a criticism of you. I just think that it is a simple fact of life and not worth worrying about.
Out of interest have there really been that many fraudulent Shorinji Kempo dojo's? I have heard of people who have left Shorinji using there association with us as a selling point (not neccesarilly in any sinister or misleading sense I might add), and of groups that have split but retained the 'flavour' of Shorinji, but never an out and out pretence of being THE Shorinji Kempo.

Ade,
A badly planned family holiday has scuppered my attendance at Summer Camp. But I wish all who attend an enjoyable and educational time.
Remember to bruise Steve for me!!:)
Kesshu
Paul

Ade
11th August 2008, 19:03
Remember to bruise Steve for me!!:)

I shall attempt to be at the head of that significant queue (though I do wish you'd asked for a task that would need more than a modicum of effort).....oh well even the measiliest chore can be amusing if approached in the right way!:D

judepeel
11th August 2008, 20:11
Personally I don't have a problem with a non-kenshi reading the fukudokahon - it doesn't really detail any techniques and reading the philosophy might inspire them to join Shorinji Kempo. The majority of what is written is available in some form online anyway or are general budo/buddhist ideas, for instance Karate students will learn about kenzenichiyo and ichigoichie is from the tea ceremony.

I'd feel less happy about the Goho and Juho books, but ultimately you can't learn Shorinji kempo from a book.

The moment a fradulent dojo is set up is the point that a law has been broken as ShorinjiKempo is trademarked, at which point WSKO can take steps to halt it.

luar
11th August 2008, 20:58
I'd feel less happy about the Goho and Juho books, but ultimately you can't learn Shorinji kempo from a book.


The same can be said about the training DVD's which only show choreography.

Rob Gassin
11th August 2008, 23:14
I personally think that dissemination of resources such as the Instructional DVDs, the Randori DVD and the Goho and Juho books are amongst the best promotional materials we have. I thing the positives, from the point of view of increasing brand name recognition and promoting the various technical aspects of SK, far outweigh any negative aspects.

Lets face it, technically, there is little that is unique to SK. it is only the whole package that is unique.

Please note that the 2 part Japanese SK Promotional videos (which I believe were filmed for a general audience) include instructional demonstrations of various techniques by senior hombu staff. This suggests to me that Hombu is not that fixated on keeping techniques secret. As noted in earlier posts SK cannot be learnt from books or DVDs.

On the matter of the dogi on e bay, did any non-kenshi bid on it? I personally can't see why any would.

Cheers,

Leelanau
12th August 2008, 00:12
Out of interest have there really been that many fraudulent Shorinji Kempo dojo's? I have heard of people who have left Shorinji using there association with us as a selling point (not neccesarilly in any sinister or misleading sense I might add), and of groups that have split but retained the 'flavour' of Shorinji, but never an out and out pretence of being THE Shorinji Kempo.


A couple of our students came from a fraudulent dojo. They came to our class expecting their ranks to be acknowledged, but only found that they had to start over and patch up their understanding of Shorinji Kempo. I've seen a few "Shorinji Kempo" storefronts that were clearly not legal branches (but I was too young at the time to acknowledge it). It's certainly not the most popular martial art to pretend to master, but it happens enough that WSKO has good reason to acknowledge it in their FAQs.

There is an underlying assumption that people won't try to learn Shorinji Kempo through goho/juho books. If we provide our materials (mostly anything involving techniques) publicly, we will invariably send a message to some that you can learn it separate of the organization and master it if you watch/read the media enough (no matter how many captions that state otherwise); this is even more likely if we don't have a dojo available in every populated state/province. Where we don't have a physical representative to teach a class and clarify the positions of WSKO, it's better that we don't have instructional media to mislead people. (Notice that it is a Japanese promotional video- in many/most of their high schools there is a Shorinji Kempo club. If someone in Japan were to secretly "master" Shorinji Kempo, they can be quickly proven otherwise.)

If we want to distinguish Shorinji Kempo as a somewhat lawful group that is singular and non-profit, we need to have some restrictions to our material that ensure that we won't be copied. Yes, it's an impossible task- but we shouldn't just give it all up.

Ewok
12th August 2008, 02:08
If we want to distinguish Shorinji Kempo as a somewhat lawful group that is singular and non-profit, we need to have some restrictions to our material that ensure that we won't be copied. Yes, it's an impossible task- but we shouldn't just give it all up.

Its hard enough for kenshi to get their hands on material, why make it any harder?

There is only one Shorinji Kempo - even if they do the same techniques, and use the same names, it is not Shorinji Kempo.

In other news, I found out I work with the son of a Shorinji Kempo goods manufacturer, and he asked me for ideas/comments/suggestions about the various things that on sale. So... anything? :p

Nina
12th August 2008, 14:36
Personally I don't have a problem with a non-kenshi reading the fukudokahon - it doesn't really detail any techniques and reading the philosophy might inspire them to join Shorinji Kempo.
Or might inspire them to deal with those stuff without necessarily joining SK. If the philosophy of Shorinji Kempo can enrich peoples life, why should it be restricted for kenshi?
Why would it be a problem, if non-kenshi deal with techniques of Shorinji Kempo, maybe in order to improve in their particular MA? If MAs have at least all the same goal, why shouldn`t we work together?



Its hard enough for kenshi to get their hands on material, why make it any harder?


I can imagine, that most kenshi got most of SK material (maybe not dogi or fukudoku-hon) second hand via the internet or as a copy of someone, there is sometimes no other chance...We even had the old book `Philosophy....`in a public library, before it mysteriously disappeared...:(

sheb
12th August 2008, 16:31
I personally think that dissemination of resources such as the Instructional DVDs, the Randori DVD and the Goho and Juho books are amongst the best promotional materials we have. I thing the positives, from the point of view of increasing brand name recognition and promoting the various technical aspects of SK, far outweigh any negative aspects.

Lets face it, technically, there is little that is unique to SK. it is only the whole package that is unique.


Or might inspire them to deal with those stuff without necessarily joining SK. If the philosophy of Shorinji Kempo can enrich peoples life, why should it be restricted for kenshi?
Why would it be a problem, if non-kenshi deal with techniques of Shorinji Kempo, maybe in order to improve in their particular MA? If MAs have at least all the same goal, why shouldn`t we work together?I also think that the more or less public materials are a very good promotion for Shorinji Kempo (and also a source for kenshi) ... and that Shorinji Kempo isn't the "only truth". A lot of other martial arts have public videos and books and nevertheless nobody became a master of a ma because of reading books or watching videos.
I also can't see, why it should be false that non Shorinji Kempo kenshi get an insight to Shorinji Kempo techniques. Also Shorinji Kempo has it's origins in different other martial arts. As long as nobody use the name "Shorinji Kempo" and claims to be a master ...
... and why shouldn't - like Nina wrote - non Shorinji Kempo kenshi enrich their life with our philosophy (... and perhaps find their way to Shorinji Kempo thereby)?

John Ryan
12th August 2008, 16:41
I think Nina makes one of the most profound points on this thread. This isn't Scientology where one must jealously protect one's organisation's materials in order to prevent rational enquiry from debunking them. I understand people are concerned about preserving the purity of SK, but that's not done by turning it inwards and keeping it as separate[d] as possible from the nasty world out there. (Incidentally, it's the same as a liberal society combating fundamentalist terrorism by systematically removing its liberties to prevent any acts of terrorism, in the process preventing any acts of anything except adherence to the government line, at which point you should wonder by whom you'd rather be terrorised)

If we want to prevent Shorinji Kempo being hijacked and abused by other agendas, maybe we should instead try to make it so renowned and famously upstanding that any copies, fraud and misrepresentation is simply laughed at. In doing so we transcend the problem, rather than brawling in the dirt with it.

Steve Williams
12th August 2008, 22:59
I shall attempt to be at the head of that significant queue (though I do wish you'd asked for a task that would need more than a modicum of effort).....oh well even the measiliest chore can be amusing if approached in the right way!:D

I admit that I am not difficult to bruise..... (I have a nice one on my knee at present from ice hockey last sunday night.....) as Mr Browne will be aware, since for years we used to hit each other regularly.....
But just like the proverbial bad penny, I keep turning up....... or more exactly, and in the words of an immortal poet (or something)
"I get knocked down, but I get up again, ain't nothing gonna keep me down...."

sheb
13th August 2008, 00:59
I'd feel less happy about the Goho and Juho books, but ultimately you can't learn Shorinji kempo from a book.
... but there one can't see not very much details mostly.So I think that to learn from them is more or less difficult - there's better material. Does anyone know whether there are/was more books like this and how's the view of WSKO regarding stuff like this?

Leelanau
13th August 2008, 07:06
If we want to prevent Shorinji Kempo being hijacked and abused by other agendas, maybe we should instead try to make it so renowned and famously upstanding that any copies, fraud and misrepresentation is simply laughed at. In doing so we transcend the problem, rather than brawling in the dirt with it.

Sadly, in America it's very hard to popularize a 'martial art' that is non-profit and doesn't revolve around competition. Social change should come before our agenda of popularizing Shorinji Kempo! :laugh:

Nina, it'd be great if some non-kenshi found enlightenment through the Fukudoku-hon, but honestly it's not hard to find those teachings in other Buddhist texts. Kongo Zen Buddhist philosophy is a partially martial-oriented version of Zen Buddhism; which is rather similar to Mahayana Buddhism; these are more recognized in America than Shorinji Kempo is. So Kongo Zen Buddhism is no secret in more ways than one, but the Fukudoku-hon can also be used as a guide to copying Shorinji Kempo. (Hence the issue of copy-cats.)

I must admit, the idea of a 'singular' Shorinji Kempo is a little vain.

paul browne
13th August 2008, 15:41
"I get knocked down, but I get up again, ain't nothing gonna keep me down...."

Hitting Steve, the gift that just keeps giving !!:D

Ade
13th August 2008, 15:56
Hitting Steve, the gift that just keeps giving !!:D
...once you've had your go, you just join the back of the significant queue and wait another go at the pop up monkey....;)

luar
14th August 2008, 04:29
...once you've had your go, you just join the back of the significant queue and wait another go at the pop up monkey....;)

Counldn't help myself here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_GJkKMPHxw) :)