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tgall
10th August 2008, 20:23
Hello,

i heard from Frank Pelny that in the next world tournament should also be Bo-Fighting-Kumite include? Has anybody more infomations about that?

Sincerly

Thomas Mayer-Gall

TimJurgens
12th August 2008, 14:27
Unless someone has stock in hospitals I think this is a bad idea. Either you use real weapons and techniques, and people get hurt really bad, or your use foam spungie things and the art gets hurt really bad. All for what, some bragging rights and a plastic trophy?

For what it is worth, I was at a recent meeting to celebrate Higaona sensei and Shimabukuro sensei being promoted to 10 Dan. There the conversation was that the next world tournament in Okinawa should be without any competition. People were saying it should only have demonstrations and lessons. Competitions were to subjective, too open to differing judgment based on stylistic divergence, and resulted in people bragging that they were world champions instead of being humble and trying to get better.

My own opinion is that people would skip it all together if the competition is removed. Last one in 2003 only had kata and fewer people showed up than in 1997. Of course someone died in 1997 so you can understand some reluctance to let people go at it, but in addition to that the argument is that if you try to make it safe you have changed it from Okinawan martial arts to something different, and many of the older crowd just have no interest in changing anything.

You can see their point. You can also see the counter point that if no one shows up then what good is it to have a big event in the first place.

I am just glad I am not going to have to be part of any decision making.

tgall
12th August 2008, 14:48
Hello Tim,

I heard that Frank Pelny got a coures as a referre for Bo-Fighting. So i was curious about it, and what are the experiences in fighting with a bo. ou was talking about the tournament in 1997, had there been bo-fighting-competions?

I heard from Tamayose Sensei that there had been bo-fighting tournaments before, and the stop cause they would be to dangerous. And I know from my own experinces that bo-fighting with real bo's is quite dangerous.

In germany we have some good experience in bo-fighting, here are some youtube links from our competions:


http://de.youtube.com/results?search_query=bo+shiai&search_type=&aq=f

and here is a best of video of our german tournatment of 2007:

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOvXS5nYUeA

We are useing a PVC-Pipe of 4 cm dieameter with a pipe insulation around it. Almost every technique is allowed, except tuskis to the face, strikes to the head are just allowed in very light contact.
The bo-techniques are working in the normal way with them. And I think there would be no problem in fighting against people from differnt styles.

Sincerly

Thomas Mayer-Gall

TimJurgens
12th August 2008, 14:55
When you change the weapon you change the art.

It might be fun. It might teach some distancing and timing. It will however deceive you on the weight of the weapons, how you grip them, how they react when hit, and the list goes on.

I advise against it.

We have some photos of Taira Sensei in bogu for sparing with weapons. It didn't work and had to be abandoned.

What we are doing is putting the set fighting drills back into the testing. The seniors in our organization belived it was needed so that people would have some experience with how the weapons react when really hit and hitting.

armanox
20th August 2008, 05:10
I've seen some videos from Okinawa of Bo sparring while wearing Bogu. The people still got beat up pretty bad despite the armor...

tgall
20th August 2008, 07:34
Hi Armanox,

this had been also our experience in Bo-Fighting with Bogu. In the 80ths we had a tournatment, where the had some real hard fight and destroyed many bo. So the development of our safty-bos stated.

Where did you the the Bogu fighting videos?

Sincerly

Thomas

FFMAC
21st August 2008, 22:08
I am planning to be in Okinawa at the time of the next world tournament and if it is just training and all thats ok to. But I would love to see some competition both kata and kumite. Bo kumite is a scary thing any weapons kumite is a scary thing so I would agree with Mr. Jurgens on voting against it in competition. Those that were braggards about being world champions well they didn't deserve it anyway in my opinion goes against everything Okinawa Karate / Kobudo stands for. What happened to the humility in the arts??

Timo
22nd August 2008, 08:28
Hello all.Question to ask if i may.When is the next Okinawan World Karate-Kobudo tournament planned?Is there any infomation available to confirm this?

Regards,
Tim H

Todd Lambert
22nd August 2008, 13:04
Aug. 2009, according to this blog:

http://blog.livedoor.jp/okinawamedia/

Timo
22nd August 2008, 19:29
Awesome.Thanks for that Todd.I'm in Naha early September so will ask if any other info available.August 2009!wow thats not to far away.

Prince Loeffler
22nd August 2008, 19:38
Of course someone died in 1997 so you can understand some reluctance to let people go at it, but in addition to that the argument is that if you try to make it safe you have changed it from Okinawan martial arts to something different, and many of the older crowd just have no interest in changing anything.



During the tournament ?

Timo
23rd August 2008, 20:20
Sorry not related to the topic.Just wondering if anyone here has purchased Nakamoto Masahiro san's new Okinawan Kobudo book?Your thoughts,reviews.

Regards,
Tim H

armanox
24th August 2008, 05:10
Hi Armanox,

this had been also our experience in Bo-Fighting with Bogu. In the 80ths we had a tournatment, where the had some real hard fight and destroyed many bo. So the development of our safty-bos stated.

Where did you the the Bogu fighting videos?

Sincerly

Thomas

Hello Thomas,

Sensei has them in the dojo's video library. I would believe that they came to us from Okinawa via Takeshi Miyagi, Kiyoshi Tsuha, or were video taped by one of our guys when they were over there.

-Pat

TimJurgens
24th August 2008, 14:18
During the tournament ?

I heard it was a South African. He took a nasty blow to the head and went down. He came to and was offered medical attention, which he declined. He went to bed and didn't wake up the next day. Dam shame, may he rest in peace.

TimJurgens
24th August 2008, 14:24
Sorry not related to the topic.Just wondering if anyone here has purchased Nakamoto Masahiro san's new Okinawan Kobudo book?Your thoughts,reviews.

Regards,
Tim H

I paged through it at Shureido. Seems well organized and would be a nice addition to a library. I visited Nakamoto Sensei about 18 months back. He lives up the road from me. Seems like a nice fellow. He was a fellow student of Akamine Esuke Sensei under Taira Shinken Sensei. When Akamine Sensei was made the Second President, Nakamoto Sensei and Inoue Sensei went their own ways. There is yet another gentleman out on the Katsuren area who trained under Taira Sensei. I actually trained there for about 3 months in 1987. The fellow did not have many foreign students and as such probably is not well known outside of his neighborhood, very good techniqe though and like most Okinawans was kind, humble, trained hard, and was welcoming.

TimJurgens
24th August 2008, 14:26
Awesome.Thanks for that Todd.I'm in Naha early September so will ask if any other info available.August 2009!wow thats not to far away.

Give me a shout if you like. If you would like to vist our hombu let me know.

Do you have any contact with Derek English by any chance?

dsomers
24th August 2008, 16:34
I seen scans of it on Ebay, it looks to me like one of his older books republished. When/if I ever get back to Okinawa to train w/ him, I will get one from him. They go for like 4x the amount on ebay that you would pay for in Okinawa, it's a shame!

David

Timo
25th August 2008, 12:32
Hello Tim San,i will look for Nakamoto Sensei's book in Shureido.Thankyou for the invitation i will definately keep this in mind.I have not spoken(e-mail)to Derek san in some time but believe he is very busy with promoting Ryukyu kobudo down here in NZ.

Regards,
Tim H

tgall
25th August 2008, 13:52
Hello,

about which book of Nakamoto Sensei are you talking? I find two on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Okinawa-Traditional-Karate-Kobudo-MASAHIRO-NAKAMOTO_W0QQitemZ270082795598QQihZ017QQcategoryZ73991QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

or this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/MASAHIRO-NAKAMATO-Okinawa-Kobudo-Karate-Martial-Arts_W0QQitemZ270173634744QQihZ017QQcategoryZ73991QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

and what would be the price at Shureido?

Sincerly

Thomas

dsomers
26th August 2008, 00:21
The 1st one you listed is actually a new one. I had a friend of mine pick it up for me while in Okinawa this past year. The price on the back is listed at 3000 yen, about $30.00 U.S.; Jason has it on Ebay for $85.00, so he's making a $55.00 profit off of it. It looks pretty much like a history book to me, lots of interesting pictures in it.
The 2nd book you listed is the one I was talking about, that looks like a reprint of one of his earlier history book, w/ the addition of the new pics w/ his beard.
There's a 3rd one listed here: http://cgi.ebay.com/MASAHIRO-NAKAMOTO-TRADITIONAL-OKINAWAN-OLD-BUDO-6822_W0QQitemZ310051635240QQihZ021QQcategoryZ73991QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp16 38Q2em118Q2el1247 . It's a great book, it has the Kata Ufugusuku No Kun, Shushi No Kun Sho & Dai, & Chikin Shitahaku No Sai in it. I bought it while in Okinawa a few years ago @ Shureido, & had Nakamoto Sensei autograph it for me. I wouldnt part w/ it for all the money in the world. Nakamoto Sensei had a few left when I was there, but I think I snatched up the last one from Shureido. This guy has it listed for $199.00, I paid only 3000 yen for it, so he's making almost $170.00 off of it, if it sells.
My recomedation: If at all possible wait to goto Okinawa to buy your books there, or have a friend buy them for you when they go, if not your gonna get hosed.

tgall
26th August 2008, 07:57
Hello David,

Thanks for the infomations. I had know that his prices are quite high. But never thought that he would do so much profit with it.

Is there any good internet book shop in Japan with fair prices where you could order martial art books?

Sincerly

Thomas

Todd Lambert
26th August 2008, 09:43
There's a 3rd one listed here: http://cgi.ebay.com/MASAHIRO-NAKAMOTO-TRADITIONAL-OKINAWAN-OLD-BUDO-6822_W0QQitemZ310051635240QQihZ021QQcategoryZ73991QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp16 38Q2em118Q2el1247 . It's a great book, it has the Kata Ufugusuku No Kun, Shushi No Kun Sho & Dai, & Chikin Shitahaku No Sai in it. I bought it while in Okinawa a few years ago @ Shureido, & had Nakamoto Sensei autograph it for me. I wouldnt part w/ it for all the money in the world. Nakamoto Sensei had a few left when I was there, but I think I snatched up the last one from Shureido. This guy has it listed for $199.00, I paid only 3000 yen for it, so he's making almost $170.00 off of it, if it sells.
My recomedation: If at all possible wait to goto Okinawa to buy your books there, or have a friend buy them for you when they go, if not your gonna get hosed.

This sure looks like the same book on Amazon.jp:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E6%B2%96%E7%B8%84%E4%BC%9D%E7%B5%B1%E5%8F%A4%E6%AD%A6%E9%81%93%E2%80%95%E3%81%9D%E3%81%AE%E6%AD%B4% E5%8F%B2%E3%81%A8%E9%AD%82-1983%E5%B9%B4-%E4%BB%B2%E6%9C%AC-%E6%94%BF%E5%8D%9A/dp/B000J771B0/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219739716&sr=8-4

dsomers
27th August 2008, 04:28
Is there any good internet book shop in Japan with fair prices where you could order martial art books?

Sincerly

Thomas

I do not know of any internet shops that carry his books. Maybe, somone from Okinawa reading this post might want to consider selling us some books at a fair price???????
I know there's an Inoue book I'd love to get a hold of that has Soeshi, & Sueyoshi No Kun in it, along w/ Jigen No Sai. If anyone knows the name of it, and/or how to get ahold of a copy please let me know.

tgall
27th August 2008, 08:14
Hello David,



I know there's an Inoue book I'd love to get a hold of that has Soeshi, & Sueyoshi No Kun in it, along w/ Jigen No Sai. If anyone knows the name of it,
and/or how to get ahold of a copy please let me know.

There is a series of 3 books of Inoue called Ryukyu Kobujutsu Jo-, Chuu- und Gekan where all Kata's are inside. With some luck you could find them on ebay. I had seen that Shikiyanaka had the 3 Volume to sell, and the he offers on his web site a search help for it. Perhaps you could talk wiht him.

Sincerly

Thomas

Timo
19th September 2008, 04:11
Hello all.Definately been told divisions of Kata and Kobudo(sai,bo)only at next years tournament.Jurgens sensei sorry for not getting in touch,between dojo and awamori headaches time just flew.Did purchase Masahiro san's book as well as Tetsuhiro san's "Timeline of Karate history and 100 masters".Have just heard of a new release buy Shinzato katsuhiko called "Okinawa Karate and Kobudo Encyclopedia,Japanese language only.Any one got?

Regards,
Tim H

Todd Lambert
6th November 2008, 16:39
A bit more info on the upcoming Okinawa World Karate Kobudo Tournament.

http://blog.livedoor.jp/okinawamedia/archives/1060210.html

Shikiyanaka
6th December 2008, 16:57
Shinzato katsuhiko called "Okinawa Karate and Kobudo Encyclopedia,Japanese language only

高宮城繁、新里勝彦、仲本政博編著:沖縄空手古武道事典。東京:柏書房、2008。
Takamiyagi Shigeru (*1935), Shinzato Katsuhiko , Nakamoto Masahiro (*1938)[Authors and Publishers]: Okinawa Karate Kobudō Jiten. Tōkyō, Kashiwa Shobō 2008. iv, 745 pp. 27cm. ISBN: 9784760133697.
Price 15,750 Yen.

Lots of co-authors, like Miyagi Tokumasa, Higaonna Morio, Tobaru Keicho, Kadekaru Toru ...

Many of the content you will find in the other works by Takamiyagi Shigeru, Shinzato Katsuhiko, and Nakamoto Masahiro and these guys are the leading "intelligenzia" of the matter.
Although it is kind of a compilation, it is very structured and enhanced volume with a lot of good stuff and after all probably the best general source on Okinawan Karate for decades to come. I would recommend it very much, if you are able to deal with Japanese language one way or the other. ;)
On the other hand, it is here and there shaped by the main authors, whom are progressive in a certain sense. For example, Nakamoto gives an article in which he declares the evolution of Kobudo in different epochs and concludes (I add the Japanese text so I probably have to buy you a beer next time we meet because of the inaccuracy of my translation):

"It is from this view point of historical change, that in this volume "Ryukyu Kobudo" is called "Okinawa Dento Kobudo" (そういう歴史的移り変わりを視点において、本編では「琉球古武道」を「沖縄伝統古武道」と称する。)

Of course "Okinawa Dento Kobudo" is the term used in Nakamoto Senseis Association name. Takamiyagi is not less progressive, same goes for Shinzato. This said, i feel we probably witness a new era to come. Like in Sanzan jidai, with the Chinese Sappōshi, Satsuma invasion, abolishion of the han, national Japan influence, WWII, post-war era, world wide spread, and finally the re-formulating and re-building process of Okinawan culture (and with this Karate and kobudo) starting in the 70s and 80s and for example leading to the world tounaments of 1997 etc., in the end this book is the description of Karate and Kobudo as it is understood today, dependend on modern society, social environment, and international relations. I.e., a snapshot.


Content (only German, sorry, no time to translate)
Vorworte
Autoren
Die Grundsätze des Budō (Budō Charta)
Kalligrafie von Yoshida Shōin (1830-1859)
Resolution bezüglich des Karate
Träger der Designation als geistiger Kulturschatz der Präfektur Okinawa im Bereich Karate und Kobudō
Karate als geistiger Kulturschatz
Wahre Meisterschaft
Denkmäler berühmter Meister und die dazugehörigen Gedenk-Inschriften
Die Entschlossenheit zur Suche nach der Wahrheit
Die einheimische Kultur und Kampfkunst von Okinawa
Karate-dō: Erwägungen über dessen gegenwärtigen Sinn.
Die Geschichte Okinawas
Der 2. Weltkrieg in Okinawa
Das Karate von Okinawa
Das Kobudō von Okinawa
Einführung in die verschiedenen Aspekte des japanischen Budō.

Erste Sammlung: Karate (S. 75-281)
1. Kapitel: Begriffsbestimmung und Klassifikation des Karate
2. Kapitel: Geschichte des Okinawa Karate-dō
3. Kapitel: Stilrichtungen des Okinawa Karate
4. Kapitel: Technik des Okinawa Karate
5. Kapitel: Kata des Okinawa Karate
6. Kapitel: Ideologie des Okinawa Karate

Zweite Sammlung: Kobudō (S. 282-368)
Zu Beginn…
1. Kapitel: Begriffsbestimmung der traditionellen alten Waffenmethoden von Okinawa
2. Kapitel: Geschichte der traditionellen alten Waffenmethoden von Okinawa
3. Kapitel: Genealogie der traditionellen alten Waffenmethoden von Okinawa
4. Kapitel: Übertragung der alten Waffenmethoden im Gebiet von Ryūkyū
5. Kapitel: Repräsentative Waffenkünste von Okinawa
6. Kapitel: Technik der traditionellen alten Waffenmethoden von Okinawa
7. Kapitel: Analyse (bunkai) repräsentativer Waffenkünste
8. Kapitel: Die Kata in den traditionellen alten Waffenmethoden von Okinawa

Dritte Sammlung: Persönlichkeiten (S. 369-660)
Biografien
Fotografien, die etwas über die Geschichte des Karate und Kobudō von Okinawa erzählen
Derzeit aktive Persönlichkeiten

Vierte 4. Sammlung: Datensammlung historischer Quellen (S. 661-737)
Sammlung von Daten, die in Verbindung mit Okinawa Karate und Kobudō stehen
Bibliografische Dokumentenliste (Vorkriegszeit)
Dokumentenliste Zeitungsartikel (Nachkriegszeit)
Geschichtliche Zeittafel des Okinawa Karate und Kobudō
Dōjōliste des Karate und Kobudō innerhalb der Präfektur Okinawa
historische Quellen (Transkriptionen der Quellen 1-6)

Personenregister (S. 738-741)
Sachregister (S. 741-745)

Sochin
6th December 2008, 22:03
Ok, very curious here...

From post #3:
In germany we have some good experience in bo-fighting, here are some youtube links from our competions:


http://de.youtube.com/results?search...rch_type=&aq=f

and here is a best of video of our german tournatment of 2007:

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOvXS5nYUeA

I was taught Japanese bo kata starting in 1972. In none of my training were we ever taught to use the bo like this, in quarter staff position. It was always in thirds, with quick thrusts out to a quarter position but then snapped back to thirds.

Is this a difference between Okinawan and Japanese approaches to bo use?

I saw many videos of the Dog Brothers go with realistic contact using an escrima stick against a bo. When the bo was held in quarter staff position, whether the user claimed to be trained in a Japanese style or Filipino (tapi tapi) style, the end was the same; the stick fighter bidded his time till he could enter behind the tip and then smote the snot out of the bo man.

I was sure I saw opportunities for a man trained in the hands at thirds position to defeat this tactic...

So my question is: what style of ma is this style of bo work?

Shikiyanaka
8th December 2008, 13:33
Thomas,

how are things going some miles away in Duisburg?

You know my position on this, it didn't change for years: You may take the Kihon and the Kata and get out of it what ever you like, but it doesn't mean you invented or developed something. In fact it was given to us by those who choreographed the Kata, a congenial vehicle.

The chain-punches in Wing-chun were hidden in the Kata, at the very end of Siu-Nim-Tau, just some of the many many techniques. You probably wouldn't even notice them very much...
Now what's the congenial technique in Karate or Kobudō, what's the secret??? I don't know... yet! ;) But it's not shiaijutsu, I#am afraid... .

I need stress the importance of Kata over Kihonjutsu and Shiaijutsu. Taira Shinken himself wrote: "In Kobudō, we use Kata to train the basics." Making these basics more and more basic means making them abstract, so much you don't even see the most visible things in it anymore."

Anyway,

kind regards to you Thomas.

tgall
9th December 2008, 13:53
Hello Ted,

the basic for our bo-fighting comes from Okinawa. In our kobudo union the people could try three styles: Ryukyu Kobudo Tesshinkan, Yamanni Chinen Ryu (RBKD) and Gendai Goshin Kobujutsu. In this video:

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOvXS5nYUeA

there you could see many fighters from the German Tesshinkan groupe.


Ok, very curious here...

From post #3:

I was taught Japanese bo kata starting in 1972. In none of my training were we ever taught to use the bo like this, in quarter staff position. It was always in thirds, with quick thrusts out to a quarter position but then snapped back to thirds.

Is this a difference between Okinawan and Japanese approaches to bo use?

I saw many videos of the Dog Brothers go with realistic contact using an escrima stick against a bo. When the bo was held in quarter staff position, whether the user claimed to be trained in a Japanese style or Filipino (tapi tapi) style, the end was the same; the stick fighter bidded his time till he could enter behind the tip and then smote the snot out of the bo man.

I was sure I saw opportunities for a man trained in the hands at thirds position to defeat this tactic...

So my question is: what style of ma is this style of bo work?

The gripping in the quater-staff way, has a simple reason, if you just fight bo-against-bo you would have a better distance for the fight if you grip it in quater-staff way. If we would do a fighting in with bo against escrima there would probably come a change in the gripping of the bo, to be more flexible in shorter distance. But that is hard to say, with out having own experience in fighting bo against escirma.

The way of gripping depends on the Kobudo ryuha, if you look to the Japanesse Katori Shinto Ryu you find a quater-staff grip. If you take Tesshinkan you find the grip in thirds. If you look to the Yamanni-Ryu you also have a quater-staff grip.

I hope I could answer your question.

Sincerly

Thomas

Timo
10th December 2008, 23:13
Haisai.Just wondering if anyone had heard about the karate kata divisions that are to be implemented at the 2009 Okinawa world tourament.Seperate divisions restricted to only three Ryuha-Shorin,Goju,Uechi.Kobudo by style also?comments anyone.

Shikiyanaka
12th December 2008, 06:43
Who is gonna be there??? Everyone without a job and other millionaires or what? How are you, as an individual, are supposed to plan a some-thousand-bucks and 2-3-weeks-off within a 9 month pre-planning time??? My job requires me to pre-plan and set fix 90% of my holiday for 2009... by now!

No no...