Is Junan Taiso all to often put on the back burner????

[shugenja_09]

I would like to know how important other Ninpo practitioners consider Junan Taiso, and if they think that it is the most neglected aspect of our art.

My view is that it is vital for becoming a balanced Budoka, and that it usually is what sets people apart in application drills, whether they will admit it or not.

Physical Endurance is a very important part of studying The Art of Endurance, and without a good grasp of it, I believe the Budoka is setting himself up for an unpleasant surprise.


Gambatte Kudasai

[khatheCh]

Although I'm not Bujinkan, I can tell that for Ninpo and any other martial art, Junan Taiso or any other similar excercices are indeed vital... it became at least for me a prime tool to achieve the necesary concentration and mental peacefulness for leveling up the abilities.

I think it's indeed an important aspect for any Martial Arts practicioner :)

[Kukan99]

Chris,

I agree that junan taiso, and the broader concept of fitness and conditioning in general is a much neglected aspect of many different martial arts practice; not just Bujinkan.

Your ability to progress and handle greater degrees of sophistication within your martial arts training is usually limited by your physical endurance. Meaning that if you are physically/mentally exhausted, then your ability to process, assimilate, and understand, not to mention perform, is extremely hampered. There are specific types of conditioning that will enhance your physical endurance and mental toughness allowing you to push the envelope further in your training, while maintaining an incremental progression and appropriate compensation/restoration to avoid injuries.

[paradoxbox]

im my opinion yes it has been put on the backburner. during my time in the bjk i never once found a dojo that took conditioning all that seriously. my judo dojo's warm up by comparison was like seal's hell week.

fitness and pre class warm up/physical training is very important. no point learning all these moves if your body isn't up to the challenge!

[EWBell]

At our dojo we do stretching followed by running, ukemi, tai sabaki drills, kihon, push ups, sit ups, etc., for about 40 minutes before we even bow in for class. There's definitely a good sweat and heart rate happening before class officially starts. I think this is extremely important, for the reasons everyone has mentioned above. I know I thought I was going to die when I first joined training, now I just feel like I'm going to pass out...big difference. :D

[niten ninja]

It's a difficult question, which I can see both ways. On the one hand to be effective most people really do need fitness and proper conditioning to be effective. On the otherhand you could argue that physical fitness should really be up to the practitioner and you're arguably wasting the time of those people who are physically fit without the classes... There's also the consideration that some classes can be really short (something I know all too well) and in those cases it's often a toss up between cutting back either physical conditioning or technique.

[Nemuri Neko]

I believe that conditioning and physical training should be done outside of dojo time. 1 hour morning walk or afternoon exercises.

Personally i don't believe in warming up before dojo training. A budoka should be always be prepared without having to "warm up" and i believe this ethos should be reflected in the dojo.

Btw: Swimming is always better than running :)

[tenchijin2]

Personally i don't believe in warming up before dojo training. A budoka should be always be prepared without having to "warm up" and i believe this ethos should be reflected in the dojo.

Btw: Swimming is always better than running :)

I've heard that sentiment expressed before, but I disagree. In *training* you are pushing your body. Whenever you push your body physically you should take care to warm up properly. Otherwise you are more likely to be injured. The fact that you must be ready to fight at any time doesn't change that, it just means that you unfortunately stand a greater chance of being injured in a real fight than in training. But that wouldn't be changed if you didn't warm up in training.

take care,

[ElfTengu]

Warm up for training. But don't overdo it.

Adrenalin and alcohol warm you up nicely for real fights.:D

Seriously though, the more you stretch and condition outside the dojo, the less warm up you will need to do for training and the more flexible you will be for whatever life throws at you, even if it's just slipping into the splits on a wet drain cover.

If I only took my own advice I would be in a lot better shape myself!:cry:

[katana73]

Personally I think that its the student's responsibility to properly warm up and to stay in shape. When I go to class I don't want to waste 30-45 minutes warming up. You pay money to someone because you want to spent your time in class learning Budo Taijutsu not warm ups. But thats my opinion I'm sure others will disagree....

[tenchijin2]

Guys, 'warming up' and 'conditioning' are very different things.

Warming up can be 5 minutes. It's easy, it's just light activity and light stretching of the muscles you can expect to use in training. It doesn't take 45 minutes!

Conditioning can be done inside or outside the dojo. It depends on how long class is, what the goals are, and what the students' expectations are.

[Mr.Franco]

"Junan undo & kokyuho are the foundation of all taijutsu, and it's important to practice them daily"

Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu 1983
Soke Masaaki Hatsumi, Ph.D.

Translation produced by American Bujinkan Dojo

[ElfTengu]

Guys, 'warming up' and 'conditioning' are very different things.

Warming up can be 5 minutes. It's easy, it's just light activity and light stretching of the muscles you can expect to use in training. It doesn't take 45 minutes!

Conditioning can be done inside or outside the dojo. It depends on how long class is, what the goals are, and what the students' expectations are.

Very true, it is best to regard conditioning as things like toughening up the forearms so that they can take the millions of uke nagashi they will receive in training, and perhaps some of those hand conditioning exercises in the old videos, that kind of thing, but fitness and flexibility are all part and parcel of that as well, whereas warming up is something you do just before a class.

You can tell during warm up which people do the hard work in between classes though! ;)

[paradoxbox]

a proper conditioning regimen should be done inside the dojo because most students are not disciplined enough to do it by themselves on their own time.

proper conditioning should consist of a few minutes of running (either in place or if the dojo is big enough everyone run around in a large circle or if outside then do laps), 20-50 push ups, 20-50 sit ups and hand walking for arm strength and balance. all that of course AFTER doing the warm up to loosen and prepare joints for the exercise. should be then followed by 5 or 10 minutes of ukemi practice including over obstacles. the ukemi should not just be rolls only as is usually done in many bjk dojo but also regular ukemi where the proper hand and foot technique is used to absorb the impact.

[ElfTengu]

And remember kids, never run or warm up without stretching first and never stretch without warming up first!:look:

It is of course a good point that some students will not necessarily condition between lessons, but those students probably won't do much of any kind of training in between lessons and won't go far, or won't progress very quickly. Or they will become the kind of fat lazy ninjers that practitioners of other arts like to ridicule and who certainly couldn't do much of the Togakure Ryu stuff like kicking from atop a wall etc because they couldn't get up there in the first place. You can forgive the older practitioner or those with genuine non-self-inflicted health problems, but not those in their prime, and at the moment I include myself in the latter category, but I don't make excuses, I make plans to change.

If you have the luxury of not commencing your usual training sessions immediately after an aerobics class has been using the venue, then get there early and put out the general message that turning up early to warm up and condition is good and turning up late or on the dot is not. Promote the eager beavers (providing their taijutsu is improving along with their fitness) and see how it goes, but letting it eat too much into actual class time can limit how much actual training you get done.

[Nanen]

Im new to e-budo.com and am unshure how well people here take to kacem Zoughari sensei (I know some love and some hate). But last year Kacem had come up to Toronto, Canada and ran a two day seminar on Gyokko and Koto ryu, in the morning of the first day he ran us all through the "actual" junan Taiso ecercises. I don`t know what was ment by "actual" or "real" (I cant remember the particular wording, but it was implied that this was the proper way to do these things). But many of them reminded me of Kundalini Yaga which my wife teaches. and some of the postures/streches were compleatly new to me. I can`t remember who, but one shidoshi took down notes on everything he could well we were doing them including the names and kanji of each of the postures. I was kicking my own but the whole time wishing that my note book was within reach.

This was my expierence of Junan Taiso, I practice some Seitai and accupressure myself as a warm up...

[ElfTengu]

Im new to e-budo.com and am unshure how well people here take to kacem Zoughari sensei (I know some love and some hate). But last year Kacem had come up to Toronto, Canada and ran a two day seminar on Gyokko and Koto ryu, in the morning of the first day he ran us all through the "actual" junan Taiso ecercises. I don`t know what was ment by "actual" or "real" (I cant remember the particular wording, but it was implied that this was the proper way to do these things). But many of them reminded me of Kundalini Yaga which my wife teaches. and some of the postures/streches were compleatly new to me. I can`t remember who, but one shidoshi took down notes on everything he could well we were doing them including the names and kanji of each of the postures. I was kicking my own but the whole time wishing that my note book was within reach.

This was my expierence of Junan Taiso, I practice some Seitai and accupressure myself as a warm up...

Yoga is often used as a supplement to Junan Taiso, although the Kundalin rocket trip is probably best avoided by most people! All styles of yoga have something to offer, I trained with a shihan once who recommended Hatha.

As for Kacem, his experience means that his opinion will always be valid, however things may have been, are currently, or are in the future. As well as people liking or not liking the man, you forgot the additional categories of those who are 'told' or 'advised' to avoid him. But let's not have another Kutaki-gate. ;)

[BlackPaladin]

"The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle." -- Anon.

[Threeboy]

When people say "Takamatsu didn't stretch" I like to remind them that Takamatsu didn't sit at a computer 8 hours a day ;)

[badname]

When people say "Takamatsu didn't stretch" I like to remind them that Takamatsu didn't sit at a computer 8 hours a day ;)


Agreed!! (Thinking as I am typing this...:D)

[ssanutokh]

My instructor says that if we're not practicing and conditioning outside of class, we're not really getting very much out of coming to class.

I try to get to the gym at least every day there's no class, and if I can make it in the morning before class as well, that's gravy, but doesn't happen often due to work.

I've recently discovered an interesting benefit: Going to the gym helps me heal faster.

No kidding - we train full contact, and sometimes I come home pretty beat up. Going to the gym and exercising on the off days eliminates stiffness and keeps me limber, and assists in the healing process.