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Anders Pettersson
1st September 2008, 13:26
As it is today deeper studies of Kongo Zen is difficult if you don't belong to a dōin, and the current regulations only makes it possible to have a dōin in Japan.

Members of a shibu (both in Japan, such as university branches, and WSKO branches abroad) can be eligible to enter the sōseki [僧籍] (priesthood) and take sōkai [僧階] ranks (shōdōshi [少導師], gon chūdōshi [権中導師], chūdōshi, [中導師], etc.)
But, as a member of a shibu it is required that one attends a dōin on a regular basis (once every month) and receives teachings directly from a dōin-chō.

The purpose of this poll is to see how many that actually is interested in the deeper philosophy of Shorinji Kempo.
I personally think that one at least would consider oneself to be Buddhist if one would enter the sōseki.

To practice Shorinji Kempo and just study the basic philosophy (the subjects in the Shorinji Kempo Tokuhon) and follow that I would say that one could have any religious views without any problem (there are no conflicts with Shorinji Kempo philosophy towards any religion IMHO).


Please vote and also be aware of that it is a public poll (others will see how you voted). I also appreciate if you could elaborate your vote as well.


1. If it was possible to be a member of a dōin and advance in the sōkai ranks I would do that. I would like to study Kongo Zen more.

2. I think that we should have the equal possibilities, as they have in Japan, to also be able to fully study Kongo Zen, but I'm not that interested myself.

3. I like the basic Shorinji Kempo philosophy, but not that deeply and don't consider myself to be a Buddhist.

4. I'm not particularly interested in the philosophy. I just want to learn Shorinji Kempo because I like it as a martial art.

5. I'm not a kenshi (student of Shorinji Kempo) I just want to vote so I can see the poll result.

dirk.bruere
1st September 2008, 14:10
As it is today deeper studies of Kongo Zen is difficult if you don't belong to a dōin, and the current regulations only makes it possible to have a dōin in Japan.

Members of a shibu (both in Japan, such as university branches, and WSKO branches abroad) can be eligible to enter the sōseki [僧籍] (priesthood) and take sōkai [僧階] ranks (shōdōshi [少導師], gon chūdōshi [権中導師], chūdōshi, [中導師], etc.)
But, as a member of a shibu it is required that one attends a dōin on a regular basis (once every month) and receives teachings directly from a dōin-chō.

The purpose of this poll is to see how many that actually is interested in the deeper philosophy of Shorinji Kempo.
I personally think that one at least would consider oneself to be Buddhist if one would enter the sōseki.

To practice Shorinji Kempo and just study the basic philosophy (the subjects in the Shorinji Kempo Tokuhon) and follow that I would say that one could have any religious views without any problem (there are no conflicts with Shorinji Kempo philosophy towards any religion IMHO).


Please vote and also be aware of that it is a public poll (others will see how you voted). I also appreciate if you could elaborate your vote as well.


1. If it was possible to be a member of a dōin and advance in the sōkai ranks I would do that. I would like to study Kongo Zen more.

2. I think that we should have the equal possibilities, as they have in Japan, to also be able to fully study Kongo Zen, but I'm not that interested myself.

3. I like the basic Shorinji Kempo philosophy, but not that deeply and don't consider myself to be a Buddhist.

4. I'm not particularly interested in the philosophy. I just want to learn Shorinji Kempo because I like it as a martial art.

5. I'm not a kenshi (student of Shorinji Kempo) I just want to vote so I can see the poll result.

I'm not sure that I have enough knowledge of Kongo Zen to be able to answer that. For example, it is quite possible to practice Zen without being a Buddhist.

Dirk

Robert Liljeblad
1st September 2008, 14:42
Hi,

I'm a member of soseki and are currently shodoshi but I would like to continue study more of Kongo Zen and advance in the sokai ranks.

Regards,

Robert

JL.
1st September 2008, 15:04
Gassho!

Both answers 1 and 3 are partially true for me, therefore I didn't take the vote (only one answer is possible). Although I am a Kenshi I still would like to see the results of the poll. ;)
To elaborate, I'm not a Buddhist and not planning to become one. I have my own philosophy which is largely based on the teachings of Gandhi, but I find that Kaiso's teachings are similar in many regards. Therefore I would very much like to delve deeper into them and appreciate the opportunity.
In short: philosophy yes (deeper than possible right now), religion no.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

dirk.bruere
1st September 2008, 15:28
Having given it some thought I am going to vote 2.
A few years ago I would have voted 1, but now I would not call myself Buddhist but Asatru, and hence could not guarantee that I would regularly attend a Doin (or be allowed to). However, I am *interested* in Kongo Zen and would certainly like the opportunity of studying it.

Dirk

Ade
1st September 2008, 15:41
Dear All

Gassho

First of all Kongo zen is not a religion, it's a values and belief structure.

Shorinji kempo (the martial way) is only part of Doshin So's teachings, but not everyone that studies the martial form will want to study all of So Doshin's teachings or beliefs.

In the modern world our question is "what value is there in studying a weaponless martial art when you can carry a weapon and be lethal for less effort?"

The answer is in what the individual kenshi seeks:

1. Healthy body? - depends on the individual dojo-cho and their emphasis during the lesson structure.

2. Effective (unarmed) self-defence - depends on the dojo-cho and their emphasis during the lesson structure.

3. Healthy mind - the art of zen, depends on whether the dojo-cho chooses to follow the original (full) teachings of So Doshin (and therefore ignores the edicts of hombu.)

And there's the rub.

At present, unless you are in a doin, then your branch master may be putting their entire Shorinji kempo career on the line by continuing you to teach Kongo Zen in a dojo, because the statutes of Shorinji Kempo make it quite clear what happens if you don't follow direct instructions.

Once he'd decided to follow the teachings of Kongo Zen So Doshin wasn't very good at following direct orders from people in a position of authority over him that he didn't agree with.

I think that's kind of the message of Kongo Zen, consider your actions carefully but you should know what's right and wrong, know what battles to fight and which one's not to, know when to say yes and mean it and when to say a Japanese "yes."

(which means - "it would be rude to say the word no, which is why I'm not doing so, but what you ask is unrealistic and therefore you will be disappointed with the reality of the situation when it arrives, this is a result of your desire, which is the root of all your suffering, I hope you reach that understanding on your own, but I can guide you to that realisation if you ask me.")

For me, Kongo Zen probably kept me here long after the novelty of pain had faded, it's such a part of the teachings that I can't relate to Shorinji Kempo without relating it to Kongo Zen, but I appreciate that not everyone feels the same.

Kesshu

Ewok
1st September 2008, 17:45
Where's the "I train at a doin but would like to learn more anyway" option eh?

dirk.bruere
1st September 2008, 20:54
Where's the "I train at a doin but would like to learn more anyway" option eh?

There's no "I" in Zen :-)

Dirk

Rob Gassin
1st September 2008, 23:02
For me, It's a mixture of options 2 and 3. I was born and have been brought up a Christian, therefore I have a Christian outlook on life.

I think Doshin So had a very good philosophy and there is absolutely nothing in it that I feel uncomfortable with.

However, I practice SK mainly for the martial art and healthy body aspects. Nevertheless, I believe that other WSKO kenshi should have the opportunity to further their studies in Kongo Zen if they so wish.

So I'll tick option 2 but option 3 reflects my position as accurately.

Anders Pettersson
1st September 2008, 23:10
For example, it is quite possible to practice Zen without being a Buddhist.
That could be a separate discussion, but in m y point of view, zen is a form of Buddhism.


Both answers 1 and 3 are partially true for me, therefore I didn't take the vote (only one answer is possible). Although I am a Kenshi I still would like to see the results of the poll. ;)
To elaborate, I'm not a Buddhist and not planning to become one. I have my own philosophy which is largely based on the teachings of Gandhi, but I find that Kaiso's teachings are similar in many regards. Therefore I would very much like to delve deeper into them and appreciate the opportunity.
In short: philosophy yes (deeper than possible right now), religion no.

Well I thought a lot on how to write the alternatives, but there is always someone that wants yet another option. :)

I would say that you should vote for the #2.
I could edit that to say that you want that a dōin should be available even outside of Japan, and even like to study Kongo Zen more, but not intrested in entering the sōseki.
I hope this doesn't want you who voted for that option to change your mind

Oh and you can see the result by clicking on the link to the right of the vote button.


First of all Kongo zen is not a religion, it's a values and belief structure.

Well that could be argued. :)

Kongo Zen Sohonzan Shorinji [金剛禅総本山少林寺] is a shūkyō hōjin [宗教法人], which means "relgious organisation".

I guess it depends on how you define the word religion. Most people would say that Buddhism is one of the big world religions, but in the next sentence they say that Buddhism is not a religion but a philosophy.

I think it is a religion, but maybe not in the sense as most people in the west think of what religion is.


Where's the "I train at a doin but would like to learn more anyway" option eh?

You don't need that, ;) you just need to ask your dōin-chō to learn more.

/Anders

JL.
1st September 2008, 23:19
Gassho!


Well I thought a lot on how to write the alternatives, but there is always someone that wants yet another option. :)Thanks – as I'm actually quite proud not to fit in pre-formulated categories. It's sort of a hobby of mine. ;)


I would say that you should vote for the #2.I found that acceptable and ticked it.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

colin linz
2nd September 2008, 00:52
I went with option 1. It is what I would like to be able to do, and is perhaps even more attractive to me than the martial arts side of Shorinji Kempo these days. I don’t believe it will ever be a possibility for me though, as I’m not in a position to travel to Japan enough. I don’t have any hope that I’ll be able to study it here in Australia, at least for some time yet. At a meeting I was a part of a couple of years ago this subject was brought up with So sensei. He appeared to not be able to understand why we would want to. He voiced an opinion that we have our own native religions, so why learn about Kongo Zen?

dirk.bruere
2nd September 2008, 01:26
At a meeting I was a part of a couple of years ago this subject was brought up with So sensei. He appeared to not be able to understand why we would want to. He voiced an opinion that we have our own native religions, so why learn about Kongo Zen?

I trust you replied that since Shinto is the native religion of Japan, why does he teach an Indian/Chinese religion?

Dirk

johan_frendin
2nd September 2008, 10:40
Gassho!

I took my san dan test at Hombu 1995. As the only westerner taking the exam I was surprised that my test was not the same as for the Japanese kenshi.

The practical exam was exactly the same but not the philosophical part. The Japanese kenshi got questions like what is a buddist temple? What is religion? The moral nature of Dharma and human divinity? The correct teaching of the Buddha but I did “only” get questions about the philosophical side of Shorinjikempo. I was very surprised and asked Hombu staff why?
The answer was that the religious questions were only for the Japanese kenshi.

In my opinion Kongo zen should be left outside WSKO as Hombu are doing now.

Johan Frendin

Indar
2nd September 2008, 13:22
As it is today deeper studies of Kongo Zen is difficult if you don't belong to a dōin, and the current regulations only makes it possible to have a dōin in Japan.



Hi,

Is this only an academic exercise, or do you expect Hombu to respond if we can get enough support for doin outside Japan ?

Thanks.

dirk.bruere
2nd September 2008, 13:33
Hi,

Is this only an academic exercise, or do you expect Hombu to respond if we can get enough support for doin outside Japan ?

Thanks.

I hope that Honbu would respond, but I doubt whether I will live long enough to see it. Honbu seems to have a rather peculiar idea of how the gaijin perceive things, especially with respect to religion.

Dirk

Anders Pettersson
8th September 2008, 22:28
Is this only an academic exercise, or do you expect Hombu to respond if we can get enough support for doin outside Japan ?

My reason for asking the question was just that I was interested to know how more people think about this question.

And I am sure that Hombu will consider everything if people let them know their opinion.
I've heard many people complain about things, but they never let Hombu know what they think. If enough people (or rather shibu-cho*) told hombu about their opinion in a certain question and gave them constructive ideas on how to make this better, not just complaining, I am sure that Hombu would consider it.

/Anders

* if you're not a shibu-cho yourself it is better to let communication to hombu go through your shibu-cho (branch master).

colin linz
9th September 2008, 05:53
* if you're not a shibu-cho yourself it is better to let communication to hombu go through your shibu-cho (branch master).

While I understand the reasoning behind this, I don’t know that it will produce reliable feedback for Hombu. Sometimes branch masters can be reluctant to voice a concern that they believe will be viewed negatively by Hombu. I would like to see Hombu be more aggressive with their efforts to gain direct feedback from kenshi.

JL.
9th September 2008, 11:27
Gassho!


I would like to see Hombu be more aggressive with their efforts to gain direct feedback from kenshi.Let them know. ;)

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Kari MakiKuutti
9th September 2008, 12:02
While I understand the reasoning behind this, I don’t know that it will produce reliable feedback for Hombu. Sometimes branch masters can be reluctant to voice a concern that they believe will be viewed negatively by Hombu. I would like to see Hombu be more aggressive with their efforts to gain direct feedback from kenshi.
Sometimes branch masters are also reluctant to voice concerns which they consider stupid. Or ignorant. Or futile.

In our present system you need to convince you branch master and/or federation first. Reasonable? If you cannot do this how can you convince the WSKO?

colin linz
9th September 2008, 13:02
Certainly some concerns may be futile or even stupid. They still have value to an organisation wanting to create a better understanding between people and to grow on a global scale. You can’t improve the issue of relevance or value to individuals without seeking to understand where you can improve. That is why I get all my students to complete a course feedback form on the completion of a course of study. I will always get a range of comments, but in the end, if they are honest comments, they will benefit me in improving how I teach. The key to this is to make the feedback process one that discourages the need to provide false comments, or comments geared around the fear of a value judgement being made of them.

Indar
20th September 2008, 18:47
try this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/sep/20/fiction

Thomas Fontaine
21st September 2008, 18:00
From Johan Frendin:


I took my san dan test at Hombu 1995. As the only westerner taking the exam I was surprised that my test was not the same as for the Japanese kenshi.


I took my sandan exam in Japan in 1997, while I was a member of Tenryu gawa Doin. The exam questions were the same for all candidates, and included those of a religious nature as Johan described. To prepare I had to have several long discussions with my teacher about those aspects of Kongo Zen and religion in Japan in general. It seems to me that the distinction between Japanese/non-Japanese has more to do with where you train than your citizenship.

As for Anders' poll, I voted for option #1.

kesshu,

Gassho.

Thomas Fontaine
WSKO Huronia Branch

PeterL
22nd September 2008, 04:51
Hi Thomas

It seems to me that the distinction between Japanese/non-Japanese has more to do with where you train than your citizenship.
I would say that the language that you choose for your test is the determinant. I just did my shodan in Aug at Hombu and they have just changed the Japanese language tests, and no longer use essays. I did the test in English and it was 4 essay questions. I train in Japan, am not a WSKO member, but took the same English exam that a WSKO member would take if they came here.

So I think it is language rather than location that determines what test you take (though it may differ at higher levels).

Cheers

Peter

Nina
22nd September 2008, 09:08
I train in Japan, am not a WSKO member, but took the same English exam that a WSKO member would take if they came here.

You train in Japan, but are not member of WSKO???

David Dunn
22nd September 2008, 09:27
You train in Japan, but are not member of WSKO???

WSKO is all of the non-Japan branches, so I would be surprised if Pete was a member of WSKO.

Nina
22nd September 2008, 14:21
Oh, I didn`t know that...

PeterL
22nd September 2008, 15:58
Oh, I didn`t know that...

Hi Nina,

good to see you posting again. Another interesting thing is that the minimum time periods for grading are longer for WSKO. (anyone knwo why that may be? )

From looking at some of the overseas homepages, I speculate that it is because you meet only two times per week. AM I on the money there?

Cheers

Peter

colin linz
22nd September 2008, 21:10
I'm not sure what the others are doing here, but Brisbane and Gold Coast Branches practice three times a week. In Newcastle we were practicing four times a week and once a week in Sydney for a while.

Anders Pettersson
22nd September 2008, 21:47
WSKO is all of the non-Japan branches, so I would be surprised if Pete was a member of WSKO.

Actually Japan is a member of WSKO as well. (look at this page (http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/wh-wsko/index.html) and some of the other linked from that one, like the link named: "National Federations of WSKO (http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/wh-wsko/p-04.html)")

But in reality it is like David says, since some things are different for kenshi in countries outside of Japan.

/Anders

Anders Pettersson
22nd September 2008, 21:47
Another interesting thing is that the minimum time periods for grading are longer for WSKO. (anyone knwo why that may be? )

From looking at some of the overseas homepages, I speculate that it is because you meet only two times per week. AM I on the money there?

No Pete, you are not on the money.
The longer time between gradings is not because some non Japanese branches practice less than three times a week. In Sweden most branches have practice three times a week, and I know some branches in Japan only have two sessions a week. :)
As you probably are aware there is a minimum time (months/years) between each rank, but also a minimum number of practice sessions attended. For non-Japanese kenshi it is more practice sessions required as well.

There are a few other things that are different for Japan and countries outside of Japan.
For instance, outside of Japan you can become and independent shibu-cho (without the need of a kantoku [coach]) as sandan (3rd dan). In Japan you need to be yondan (4th dan) to be a shibu-cho and for doin-cho I think it is godan (+ certain level of sokai).

The problem with the different time between ranks is not just that it is different in different countries. Non-Japanese kenshi in Japan has to follow the longer periods as well, even if they speak and read/write Japanese as good as any native.

This has been brought up in various meetings over the years and a change is planned so we will get the same requirements all over.
It will hopefully be finalized soon, but as I understand the problem have been that representatives in WSKO don't think we should shorten the times between ranks, but rather that the Japanese federation should get closer to the times we have. We will hopefully see where it ends within the next year.

/Anders

Indar
23rd September 2008, 09:52
Hi Nina,

good to see you posting again. Another interesting thing is that the minimum time periods for grading are longer for WSKO. (anyone knwo why that may be? )



perhaps Hombu has higher expectations for non-Japanese Kenshi? :look:

dirk.bruere
23rd September 2008, 13:33
perhaps Hombu has higher expectations for non-Japanese Kenshi? :look:

Someone who sees the glass is half full rather than half empty.

Dirk

PeterL
23rd September 2008, 16:02
No Pete, you are not on the money.

For instance, outside of Japan you can become and independent shibu-cho (without the need of a kantoku [coach]) as sandan (3rd dan). In Japan you need to be yondan (4th dan) to be a shibu-cho and for doin-cho I think it is godan (+ certain level of sokai).

The problem with the different time between ranks is not just that it is different in different countries. Non-Japanese kenshi in Japan has to follow the longer periods as well, even if they speak and read/write Japanese as good as any native.

This has been brought up in various meetings over the years and a change is planned so we will get the same requirements all over.

It will hopefully be finalized soon, but as I understand the problem have been that representatives in WSKO don't think we should shorten the times between ranks, but rather that the Japanese federation should get closer to the times we have. We will hopefully see where it ends within the next year.


/Anders

Hi Anders!

Thank you for your detailed reply.


Never am.....

Personally, I think 3rd dan is kind of low...

Interesting... because I was told that since I was in the Japanese Fed, I would be subject to the same time limits as Japanese Kenshi... (One thing about Japan that I have learned is that rules were made to be adapted... They are very good at using a case by case approach... But I guess I will have to see when I am ready to test for 2-dan - I think the wait in Japan is a year and change - who knows if I will be ready then anyway- BTW what is the "wait time between 1-dan, 2-dan, and 3-dan overseas? (that is as far down the road as modesty (and a reality check) allows me to look :) )

A good idea I think.

I think that the "dan" perception is a bit different here. 1-dan basically means you are in junior high school which is quite different from the perception in the west I think (at least outside of the MA). So I think that there is a wide variation in "shodan" skills in Japan, and it is really as suggested in the syllabus, a marker to chart your own progress. It is quite rare I think for kenshi to fail a kyu or shodan test in Japan. (kyu tests are done "in doin" - or at least in kagawa, as far as I know) What is the case in Sweden or other countries??


Thanks again for your detailed comments

Regards

Peter

JL.
23rd September 2008, 17:10
Someone who sees the glass is half full rather than half empty.Why shouldn't one be able to see the glass when half empty? :laugh: :p

JL

dirk.bruere
23rd September 2008, 17:15
Why shouldn't one be able to see the glass when half empty? :laugh: :p

JL

Well, I am not sure whether you understand the saying and are joking, or not. So, here's the meaning. One who sees a glass half empty is a pessimist, and one who sees it half full an optimist. Personally, I wait until I see which direction the level is going :)

Dirk

JL.
23rd September 2008, 17:33
Well, I am not sure whether you understand the saying and are joking, or not.There's beer in Germany, too, don't worry. :)
:laugh: was supposed to mean that I'm laughing about the great joke that I supposedly just made.
:p was supposed to mean that I was making fun of what I quoted. I probably should have put ;) as well to indicate that I didn't mean to be taken too seriously. :) (as in enough talking, more smiling!)
Anyway, reading it the first time I thought You had misspelled (put an "as" in the place of the "is" to see what I mean). Only after re-reading I realized that – for the lack of commas – both meanings are possible.

JL

dirk.bruere
23rd September 2008, 17:39
There's beer in Germany, too, don't worry. :)
:laugh: was supposed to mean that I'm laughing about the great joke that I supposedly just made.
:p was supposed to mean that I was making fun of what I quoted. I probably should have put ;) as well to indicate that I didn't mean to be taken too seriously. :) (as in enough talking, more smiling!)
Anyway, reading it the first time I thought You had misspelled (put an "as" in the place of the "is" to see what I mean). Only after re-reading I realized that – for the lack of commas – both meanings are possible.

JL

English is tricky that way (and many other ways). I would prefer German for clarity, although mine is pretty schlecht. Perhaps we should all write in the most perfect logical language that exists - Sanskrit. It would certainly keep the place nice and quiet.

Dirk

JL.
23rd September 2008, 17:42
*LOL* Nice one!
Perhaps something like Esperanto instead?

JL

Indar
23rd September 2008, 19:25
Someone who sees the glass is half full rather than half empty.

Dirk

if that is a compliment, then thanks.

....but i see the glass as both half full and half empty......as does everybody.

i choose to believe that, perhaps, Hombu know what they are doing.......

Kaenzig
23rd September 2008, 20:12
Perhaps we should all write in the most perfect logical language that exists - Sanskrit.

Cur non latina disputamus? Hanc enim lingua mihi pulchra claraque videtur. Btw, did you know they actually started to teach Sanskrit as a first language again in some villages in India? People there know speak it as their mother tongue .

Ok, I'll shut up now. :) Let's get back on topic.

Steve Williams
23rd September 2008, 20:48
Hi Anders!

Thank you for your detailed reply.


Never am.....

Personally, I think 3rd dan is kind of low...

Interesting... because I was told that since I was in the Japanese Fed, I would be subject to the same time limits as Japanese Kenshi... (One thing about Japan that I have learned is that rules were made to be adapted... They are very good at using a case by case approach... But I guess I will have to see when I am ready to test for 2-dan - I think the wait in Japan is a year and change - who knows if I will be ready then anyway- BTW what is the "wait time between 1-dan, 2-dan, and 3-dan overseas? (that is as far down the road as modesty (and a reality check) allows me to look :) )

A good idea I think.

I think that the "dan" perception is a bit different here. 1-dan basically means you are in junior high school which is quite different from the perception in the west I think (at least outside of the MA). So I think that there is a wide variation in "shodan" skills in Japan, and it is really as suggested in the syllabus, a marker to chart your own progress. It is quite rare I think for kenshi to fail a kyu or shodan test in Japan. (kyu tests are done "in doin" - or at least in kagawa, as far as I know) What is the case in Sweden or other countries??


Thanks again for your detailed comments

Regards

Peter
Hi Peter

Just to answer a couple of your points......

3rd Dan in the west is actually kind of high......
In the UK (and the situation is pretty similar in europe and in the US/Canada) we have 1x 8th dan, 1x 7th dan, 1x6th dan, 4x 5th dan, 11x4th dan, about 20x 3rd dan and 30 to 40 2nd dan........
As far as I can remember this percentage is pretty much the same in most european countries...... the US may have a few more high (7th dan +) grades but not that many more........
(these numbers are for those training regularly)

I do not have the WSKO guidelines for time in grade to hand, but the approximate times (here in the uk) are 3 to 4 years to shodan, another 2 to 3 years to nidan, another 3 to 5 years to sandan, another 5 to 8 years to yondan, and if you are still around about another 10+ years to godan....... this is usual, not the set guidelines but the times that a large number of people achieve....... personally I took 3 to shodan, 2 more to nidan, 3 more to sandan and then 10 to yondan (Anders sensei would say, correctly, that this was my "lazy bastard" time ;) )....... hopefully I will buck this trend and take my godan a bit faster......

dirk.bruere
23rd September 2008, 20:53
if that is a compliment, then thanks.

....but i see the glass as both half full and half empty......as does everybody.

i choose to believe that, perhaps, Hombu know what they are doing.......

Very non-dualistic Zen Quantum of you when it comes to glasses :)
As for organisations in general, I'm rather more cynical. But belief is always choice. I'll reserve judgement.

Dirk

PeterL
24th September 2008, 02:16
Hi Steve

Thanks for your comments

Hi Peter


3rd Dan in the west is actually kind of high......
In the UK (and the situation is pretty similar in europe and in the US/Canada) we have 1x 8th dan, 1x 7th dan, 1x6th dan, 4x 5th dan, 11x4th dan, about 20x 3rd dan and 30 to 40 2nd dan........
As far as I can remember this percentage is pretty much the same in most european countries...... the US may have a few more high (7th dan +) grades but not that many more........
(these numbers are for those training regularly)

I do not have the WSKO guidelines for time in grade to hand, but the approximate times (here in the uk) are 3 to 4 years to shodan, another 2 to 3 years to nidan, another 3 to 5 years to sandan, another 5 to 8 years to yondan, and if you are still around about another 10+ years to godan....... this is usual, not the set guidelines but the times that a large number of people achieve....... personally I took 3 to shodan, 2 more to nidan, 3 more to sandan and then 10 to yondan (Anders sensei would say, correctly, that this was my "lazy bastard" time ;) )....... hopefully I will buck this trend and take my godan a bit faster......




3rd Dan: firstly I hope that my post did not come off as "dismissive" of 3-dan or the efforts it takes to achieve 3-dan. I think that in the west there is a "higher expectation, especially in the layperson, about what a "black belt means- aka Brue Lee skills. In Japan most people who study MA from childhood (regardless of the MA) reach shodan by junior high school. Though these days there are less people doing MA in the schools.

In the UK (and the US/Canada) etc.
I think that a big difference in the "degree of seriousness" of the typical SK kenshi at the lower levels. For quite a few japanese Kenshi, I think it can amount to being a hobby, and between 1-dan and 2-dan, you need to make a real "mental" commitment. For example on kenshi that I know of might be transferred so he is of the mind that he will give up SK if he is not near a doin. (I think near means less than 30 min. It is his hobby. It is my impression that in the west there are more obstacles to training. ANother example I can think of is how many western kenshi have to wait for an official grading event (maybe I am mistaken, but that seems to be the case from what I have seen on some web sites- announcement for grading sessions). In our case, our sensei basically said, OK, you are ready to grade for x-kyu, when do you want to do it? How about next saturday (of course we would panic and say "no, no, no" and try set a time 2 months away but usually we could "negotiate" a two-three week delay. LOL )

As I have said earlier, my perspective is probably warped because I am so close to the center of SK. AT my doin, (active members are relatively few (compared to some other doin) but also we share a doin (Tue/Thu/Sat is us, and Mon/Wed/Fri is another, so people choose their doin based on time convenience and I think M-W-F is more appealing to young adults than giving up Saturday night) I would say our very regular members (including 5 teachers) are 8,7,5,5,5,5,4,3,2,1,1,1,1, 1-kyu (4) all of which will test this year. We are also joined by some members of the uni clubs before especially before testing and the BM of one of the uni clubs comes to train with us.
(these numbers are for those training regularly), too
I do not have the WSKO guidelines for time in grade to hand: me either, BUT IF YOU ATTEND 3 x per week, but I think you can get to shodan in 1 year and three months (3 months to 3-kyu, 3 months to 2-kyu, 3-months to 1-kyu, and 6 months to shodan {it might also be 6 moths to -1kyu- can't remember} ) above than, someone "broke down for me but I don't remeber clearly, but iot is somewhere around a year to 2-dan and maybe 2 years to 3-dan.... but now I am "making it all up as I go along..:" :)

It took me 3 years and change to get to shodan (had about a year off -in between - two car accidents and surgery). I have also changed jobs and have more control over my time so I hope to get to 2-dan faster. (though now I am on "hold" as my wife will be bearing down for her shodan and I will mostly attend the kids classes while she goes to the adult classes (someone has to watch our kids at night). But going to the kids classes is good review and helping the kids is good practice for me.

As a funny aside: I teach at uni, and am very accustomed to being called sensei, but not at SK. SO it was funny one of the little kids called out to me, "Sensei, Sensei..." and I looked behind me to see who she was talking to - LOL. I do not think I am ready to respond to sensei in the doin...





I like the lazy bastard time terminology :), good luck with the 5-dan! (does that mean you will have to come to Hombu? )

Thanks again for your comments. It is really nice to get a worldwide perspective on SK.

Sincerely,

Peter

Anders Pettersson
24th September 2008, 13:50
Been a little busy so I haven't had the time to reply until now.



BTW what is the "wait time between 1-dan, 2-dan, and 3-dan overseas? (that is as far down the road as modesty (and a reality check) allows me to look :) )

The times between rank are as follows:

minarai to 3 kyu: WSKO minimum of 30 days of practice and minimum 3 months - Japan minimum of 27 days of practice and minimum 2 months
3 kyu to 2 kyu: WSKO minimum of 30 days of practice and minimum 3 months - Japan minimum of 24 days of practice and minimum 2 months
2 kyu to 1 kyu: WSKO minimum of 30 days of practice and minimum 3 months - Japan minimum of 24 days of practice and minimum 2 months
1 kyu to 1 dan: WSKO minimum of 50 days of practice and minimum 6 months - Japan minimum of 24 days of practice and minimum 2 months
1 dan to 2 dan: WSKO minimum of 150 days of practice and minimum 18 months - Japan minimum of 120 days of practice and minimum 10 months
2 dan to 3 dan: WSKO minimum of 200 days of practice and minimum 2 years - Japan minimum of 150 days of practice and minimum 14 months
3 dan to 4 dan: WSKO minimum of 300 days of practice and minimum 3 years - Japan minimum of 200 days of practice and minimum 2 years
4 dan to 5 dan: WSKO minimum of 400 days of practice and minimum 4 years - Japan minimum of 250 days of practice and minimum 3 years
5 dan to 6 dan: WSKO minimum of 500 days of practice and minimum 6 years - Japan minimum of 400 days of practice and minimum 5 years

If I remember correctly there is also one year longer for WSKO from 5th Dan to Daikenshi (one year in Japan, two years for WSKO) and one year longer from 6th Dan to Junhanshi (two years in Japan and three years for WSKO), but i didn't have those numbers at hand so I'm not 100% sure.

These are the minimum times, but for most WSKO kenshi it usually takes longer time between each rank (at least at kyu level).



(kyu tests are done "in doin" - or at least in kagawa, as far as I know) What is the case in Sweden or other countries??

The official requirement is that a shibu-cho who is sandan can hold examinations up to shodan, a yondan shibu-cho can hold examinations up to nidan. If there is a national federation they can appoint a 5th dan (or above) shibu-cho to hold dan examinations up to sandan. Yondan and above is only at Hombu (just as in Japan) or sometimes at special occaisions (koshukai/taikai) in other countries if the event is organised by WSKO Hombu.

In Sweden usually kyu grades are done in each dojo (sometimes branches that are close help each other), for Dan examinations we have said that we need to be two official examiners.

/Anders

PeterL
24th September 2008, 16:11
Anders,

thanks for all the details.

Peter

Tripitaka of AA
24th September 2008, 16:23
Anders Sensei has to be the most thorough and careful correspondent on any forum I've ever come across. His information is always given with attention to detail and neatly displayed. I know that this forum (and the others that benefit from his participation) owe a great deal to his continued efforts to share the information that he has obviously spent years collecting. He always gives accurate and authoritative information without colouring it to suit his own agenda.

I would create a thread in his honour, but I think he'd probably close it.

:nw:

JL.
24th September 2008, 16:50
:nw::cool::nw::cool::nw: ;)


I would create a thread in his honour, but I think he'd probably close it.

:nw:Then do it in Your own forum! :p

JL