Why Shotokan Sochin and Shito-ryu Sochin so different?

[john_lord_b3]

Dear Karateka friends,

According to this website

http://toudijutsu.blogspot.com/2008/05/seisho-aragaki.html

Funakoshi Gichin and Mabuni Kenwa both studied under Aragaki Seisho, and that Aragaki created the Kata Sochin. Logically, the Sochin Kata as practiced by Shotokan and Shito-ryu should be rather similar with each other. However, if we observe closely:

Shito-ryu version of Sochin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obdo6HW02ds

Shotokan version of Sochin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjD5ZqUEeJo

These two Katas are very different with each others. Not even 50% similarity exist between these two.

Anybody understand how this happen?

Thank you very much for your kind attention.

[TonyU]

Could it have been two different kata handed down given the same name?

[john_lord_b3]

if Funakoshi and Mabuni learned the Kata from two different persons, that could very well been the case. However, they learned from the same person (Aragaki) whom are supposed to be the creator of Sochin, so it's a mystery.

Or, maybe Aragaki sensei taught Funakoshi and Mabuni differently, for whatever reasons. Perhaps he taught one person the Kata while it is still in "under construction" stage, and the other person when the Kata has already been completed..

just my speculations, off course :)

what do you think Tony san?

[EddieK]

“…Inasmuch as there are not now, and never have been, any hard and fast rules regarding kata, it is hardly surprising to find that they change not only with the times but also from instructor to instructor…” Gichin Funakoshi

Perhaps this attitude/philosophy has something to do with it? After learning a kata, two students go their seperate ways...

[Gibukai]

Hello,

while it is true that G. Funakoshi learnt something from S. Aragaki it is absolute uncertain what exactly he did learn. G. Funakoshi mentioned in his biography that he studied under a teacher by the name of Aragaki; he does not say how long and what he studied.

As for Sōchin K. Mabuni wrote in 1938 that this kata developed into several kinds, and that he is presenting the version of the Aragaki current. This confirms the existence of several (read: “at least two different”) variants of the kata Sōchin in the 1930ties.

Additionally K. Iwai points out in his 2001 publication that there are two sorts of Sōchin, namely one from the Naha line of transmission, and one from the Shuri line of transmission.

I would add that the trademark of the Naha version is the nekoashi-dachi, while the Shuri form makes use of shiko-dachi or (in Shōtōkan terminology) fudō-dachi (sōchin-dachi). Shuri versions may be Motobu no Sōchin, Kudaka no Sōchin, and the Shōtōkan Sōchin (Hakkō). According to verbal traditions of the Shōtōkan line, Sōchin has been Yoshitaka's favourite form.

Regards,

Henning Wittwer

[john_lord_b3]

how much is the possibility of Nakayama and Yoshitaka meddling around with the Kata and modified it as they please..?

[Sanseru]

And let's not forget the version of Sochin taught by Kimo Wall which has its lineage as:

Kimo Wall - Kina Seko (1911 - 1994) - Kyoda Juhatsu (1887 - 1968) - ?

[john_lord_b3]

How does Wall sensei start the Sochin Kata? With the three reverse punches in Nekoashi Dachi, or with the Fudo-Dachi?

[Sanseru]

Double down block in right natural stance
Right middle block - double punch
Turn to right in natural stance - down block
Slide in shiko dachi - low punch
Slide back natural stance - right middle block - double punch

That should give the basic idea of the opening sequence.

[john_lord_b3]

ah, thank you for the hint. So it's very different with the other two.

Sochin is just like Hakutsuru then. So many versions for the Kata of the same name.

[Sanseru]

You could contact Kimo Wall directly through his website for more information on this version of Sochin.

[john_lord_b3]

Thank you for the info, McKenna sensei.

[Kevin73]

The shotokan version looked very much like Shotokan. It is possible that Funakoshi modified the version he learned to fit into the mold that he wanted for his style.

I find it very interesting to see the different versions of the "same kata" that the styles have. For example, seisan, each style's version looks very much like that style and has been "modified" to fit into their approach and strategy.

[john_lord_b3]

The shotokan version looked very much like Shotokan. It is possible that Funakoshi modified the version he learned to fit into the mold that he wanted for his style.

Either him, or maybe it was Yoshitaka or maybe even Nakayama who modified the kata to fit to their liking. I read somewhere in the web (can't remember where), that the modern-day JKA-Shotokan style is not really a creation of Funakoshi sensei, but rather, was a creation of a committee of senseis headed by Nakayama.