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sonibasra
12th September 2008, 10:52
Gassho,

I was wondering whether all BM have their own insurance, or do some rely on waivers? Also, are we somehow insured through Hombu though our membership fees?

Thanks in advance,

Soni

JL.
25th September 2008, 17:45
Gassho Sempai!

We're currently looking into the situation for ourselves …
The best offer we've found so far is at roughly €200 per head and year for everyone who conducts training, which will give them insurance from liability up to €3 mio. As far as we know there is no insurance through Hombu and, at least in Germany, the federation.
If we find out more I'll post it here.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

colin linz
25th September 2008, 20:56
From my experience here in Australia with other sporting organisations I would not risk waivers on their own.

In my branch I used a waiver as a way of disclosing the risks, but I also had insurance. I would be very hesitant about training when I thought a student could be injured and be off work for some time without some financial help available to them or their families.

As for costs it can be expensive, and this is reflected in the number of branches that don’t use it. It doesn’t necessarily need to be though. If you are a member of the Industry association and abide by their training, instruction standards, have current risk assessment plan and are an accredited coach you can get insurance for about $500AUD a year.

yoj
25th September 2008, 21:30
waivers arent enough, and in the UK insurance is less than a fifth of that.

Chris McLean
25th September 2008, 21:39
In the US we use insurance and a waiver the waiver is just as important.

yoj
25th September 2008, 21:42
A waiver is important here, but a professional control and restraint instructor i know has warned us that if there is an issue, it may not absolve you, it just makes them aware there is a risk, and that you've got a record of it.

Rob Gassin
26th September 2008, 00:45
I often use waivers in my professional life. There are a number of issues involved with their use, 2 of the most important are interpretation and the fact that you cannot waiver your own incompetence (a good thing really).

With regards to interpretation, I give the following true example, which highlights the problem.

A Doctor (Professor of medicine) in Switzerland performed a procedure on a patient. Prior to the procedure, he had provided the patient with a 13 page booklet explaining the procedure and its risks, including the small risk of a stroke.

The patient signed a consent stating that he/she had read the booklet and understood it.

The patient suffered a stroke and sued the doctor. The court found that the doctor was liable as the booklet did not explain what a stroke was and how debilitating it could be.

However, in my opinion, a waiver is better than no waiver.

sonibasra
26th September 2008, 08:32
Thanks for your reponses.

Jan - I thought Berlin was insured through the university. At least it was when I was there...

JL.
26th September 2008, 10:31
Gassho!


I thought Berlin was insured through the university. At least it was when I was there...Unfortunately the HU is very poor. :( The only insurance it provides is for the people who are enrolled in courses. Not for the trainers, not even if they just get hurt themselves!

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

sonibasra
26th September 2008, 13:45
...The only insurance it provides is for the people who are enrolled in courses. Not for the trainers, not even if they just get hurt themselves!

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

I don't think a trainer will sue him/herself!

I was under the impression that in Berlin the trainer was insured as an employee of the university, but I might be mistaken. Insurance through enrollment is the easy way of doing it - its not like non-students aren't allowed to enroll.

I don't understand what kind of insurance you are talking about in your previous post. In other words, what does the €200 cover? Is it a general Haptpflichtversicherung for trainers? If it is, could you PM with the details?

Thanks,

Soni

JL.
26th September 2008, 13:57
Gassho!

Sorry, didn't clarify that I kinda switched insurances in the previous post: the €200 is a Haftplichtversicherung (liability), the HU insurances just cover accidents – and only for the enrolled students, not for the teachers!
I'll mail what details I have on the former, we're currently looking into both.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

colin linz
27th September 2008, 01:09
Most venues in Australia, especialy government venues are insisting on $20 million Public Liability cover before they will allow people the use of them. This is double my previous understanding of the situation.

Chris McLean
27th September 2008, 15:20
:eek:My God Man!!! The value of life in Texas must be less then. My experiance here is that its a one million dollar bond to have an event here.

Indar
12th May 2009, 11:20
Oh, and for your information, I have met Jee sensei, just once, around 2 years ago; I was visiting his Wembley dojo with a couple of lads I'd introduced to SK in London a few years back; he asked me to teach his class, and I did. We got on well. He was polite, courteous and friendly. Definitely the kind of person I could respect. I wish I could say the same for all the people I've come across on this website.

As W.S.K.O. becomes a reality and more of us train, and even teach, at foreign branches perhaps we should look more closely at insurance issues.

It's not clear what the regulations are when a visiting instructor is asked to teach; I'll contact Sensei Jee to see if he can offer clarification as to current regulations within the B.S.K.F.

With regard to events in Europe, U.K. citizens should apply for an E111 card which entitles us to treatment within the E.U. if needed. This can be done on-line and is processed quickly, so any B.S.K.F planning to train in Germany next month should apply, if you don't already have one.

Steve Malton
12th May 2009, 14:16
The E111 was phased out a few years ago - it's now the European Health Insurance Card (EHIC). Of course, this doesn't cover 3rd party liablility as regular training insurance does; it's a good question whether, eg, BSKF insurance would cover training in Germany. Does anyone know if this is the case? I would expect that the host instructors' insurance would cover anyone who is currently registered with their home federation and/or WSKO, but I'm not sure.

Blue Popovic
12th May 2009, 18:42
Indeed the issue of proper insurance cover when an instructor who is not the usual one teaches in any dojo (...whether he/she is from the same or a foreign federation or not) is one that every branchmaster should have considered, and resolved in advance, ideally.

But let's not play too much in the hands of the Health & Safety joykillers (I'm talking about official departments) for which everything happening anywhere in society should be given a green light by them only, at any stage. It suppresses enterprise, entrepreneurship, spontaneity, and the pleasure of creativity, far too often.
Shorinji kempo is OUR business, first and foremost. The state, the police - of any kind-, the lawyers, the insurers are all entities that are there to serve us, citizens, when we need them. They are not there to tell us how to run our organisation, our dojos... but I fear some might like the idea.

John Ryan
12th May 2009, 18:51
I think the point of insurance for Shorinji Kempo is to prevent people being sued for injuring each other as part of normal training... it's not a government quango conspiracy! :D

In my experience, putting on a do has been the most dangerous part of training recently :p

Blue Popovic
12th May 2009, 23:27
Yes indeed and better be well protected than sorry.
Conspiracy theories have never been my cup of tea John, I am too much of a realist! :p

colin linz
13th May 2009, 00:45
My understanding of the insurance issue here in Australia is as follows. If you are a member of the industry governing body, and have coaching qualifications you are offered insurance at a reduced rate. This is done through a partnership agreement with the industry body and a nominated insurer. The reasoning behind the reduced rate is that to gain membership with the industry body you have to have in place approved risk management policies. The coaching accreditation ensures insurers that the instructors have a minimal knowledge of coaching principles, training methods, exercise physiology and a basic understanding of sports injury and first aid treatments.

Under this system, my understanding is that as long as the visiting instructor holds coaching accreditation the policy is still active. How it applies to visiting overseas instructors I’m not sure about, however I would assume that there is provision for this as all the major martial arts organisations operating in Australia belong to the industry body (except for us).

Without this system branches would need to check with their individual insurers. Most branches in Australia would use another organisations insurance policy. While I was a member of the industry body, I chose to use my training venues policy. In my case it was the PCYC where my branch was based. This didn’t cost me anything as long as my students and I were members of the PCYC ($25 pa). This of course would limit visiting instructor’s ability to instruct, although membership could always be arranged on relatively short notice. A number of other branches are based at University. They use a similar agreement, but I have no knowledge of the specifics of their coverage, other than all students need to be members of the student union.

Insurance is a necessary evil these days. The risks are just too great. I’m not sure about other countries, but I believe that here if an injury occurs there could be wider implications. Insurance companies tend to chase the money. My understanding is that a possible scenario of this could be where an instructor protects his assets by holding them in someone else’s name. In this case, if the injured student belongs to a club, the law will deem all members as responsible for the dept and seek to gain payment from the members. Further to this I would hate to have a student injured and see them and or their families suffer just because I was too slack or too short sighted to organise insurance. Many people often state that these days people have a problem with accepting the consequences of their actions, and that martial arts carry an inherited risk. This is true, but it is also true that when you decide to teach, you also are deciding to inherit risk.

Indar
18th May 2009, 17:14
The E111 was phased out a few years ago - it's now the European Health Insurance Card (EHIC). Of course, this doesn't cover 3rd party liablility as regular training insurance does; it's a good question whether, eg, BSKF insurance would cover training in Germany. Does anyone know if this is the case? I would expect that the host instructors' insurance would cover anyone who is currently registered with their home federation and/or WSKO, but I'm not sure.

I've contacted TL Risk Solutions Ltd, who are the brokers dealing with insurance for the B.S.K.F. Their reply;

"Thank you for your enquiry
The Liability policy for the Association is UK only, but we can offer cover under our travel package, which has liability for competing abroad"

Steve Malton
19th May 2009, 21:22
I've contacted TL Risk Solutions Ltd, who are the brokers dealing with insurance for the B.S.K.F. Their reply;

"Thank you for your enquiry
The Liability policy for the Association is UK only, but we can offer cover under our travel package, which has liability for competing abroad"
Well, that answered that question. Thanks Indar.

The next question is: Does a branchmaster's insurance cover visiting kenshi (whether or not from overseas)? What are the requirements for someone to be covered by the branchmaster's insurance?

Indar
20th May 2009, 06:46
Well, that answered that question. Thanks Indar.

The next question is: Does a branchmaster's insurance cover visiting kenshi (whether or not from overseas)? What are the requirements for someone to be covered by the branchmaster's insurance?

What would be useful would be a comprehensive and accurate guide, which could be available on the B.S.K.F. website.

As people become more litigious, and lawyers tempt us with "no win, no fees", this becomes more necessary.

It would also be useful to have a copy of the B.S.K.F. constitution and annual accounts on the website, and would add a lot of credibility to the public perception of Shorinji Kempo.

Steve Malton
20th May 2009, 12:21
What would be useful would be a comprehensive and accurate guide, which could be available on the B.S.K.F. website.
...
It would also be useful to have a copy of the B.S.K.F. constitution and annual accounts on the website, and would add a lot of credibility to the public perception of Shorinji Kempo.
I've just had a look, and there is a summary of the insurance information on the site, although the instructor's insurance says that it is subject to the terms of the master policy which isn't on there. It doesn't state which type of cover we have, ie whether it's personal injury and/or public liability - I can try to find out. This is all available to branch administrators through the new members area.

I'm fairly sure the constitution is in there as well - we should make that easier to find.

David Dunn
20th May 2009, 12:53
It's there in the Branch Administrator's area now Steve. The insurance stuff is limited to what people provided when I asked branches what they had that could go in that area.

The accounts were circulated to all branches for the AGM a few weeks ago. They could go up too. The next release will hopefully be in a short number of weeks, when the new graphic design arrives.

Indar
20th May 2009, 19:37
It's there in the Branch Administrator's area now Steve. The insurance stuff is limited to what people provided when I asked branches what they had that could go in that area.


It's probably better to contact the brokers directly; they were quick to provide me with the information that I requested, and the information is (hopefully) accurate :).

In the interest of transparency, (very important for a non-profit organisation), it may be better to provide information on member to member insurance to all members and avoid the possibilty of information getting lost in translation. (terrible film, btw).

Indar
27th May 2009, 10:37
I've just had a look, and there is a summary of the insurance information on the site, although the instructor's insurance says that it is subject to the terms of the master policy which isn't on there. It doesn't state which type of cover we have, ie whether it's personal injury and/or public liability - I can try to find out. This is all available to branch administrators through the new members area.

I'm fairly sure the constitution is in there as well - we should make that easier to find.

The BSKF used to have an insurance officer; one of those rare (and valuable) individuals who not only display technical competance but also understand the way in which organisations work. I believe that he's not training at present, but I'm sure that he could be persuaded to return to the fold. :wave:

But to get to the point; perhaps you, or someone else,:laugh:would consider taking on this role; obviously a vital one. Any prospective candidate will need a thick skin and administrative ability, (sadly undervalued); SK administrators generally don't get much recognition, but as some of us know, virtue is its own reward.

Teko No Ri
28th May 2009, 08:54
Hi all,

I'm sure I have a copy of the master schedule at home. I remember asking for it when I only got the certificate through the post. I'll see if I can find it and post it here.

Indar
28th May 2009, 09:06
Hi all,

I'm sure I have a copy of the master schedule at home. I remember asking for it when I only got the certificate through the post. I'll see if I can find it and post it here.

Maybe better to post it on the BSKF website ? I appreciate that BSKF stuff is mostly boring to other WSKO kenshi, (although a lot of people follow soap operas :)).

although it would be useful to promote standardisation, (and clarify insurance issues :look:) especially as more of us build our horizontal ties (copyright Kaiso :) http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/kaiso/42.html).


Thanks; and well done (fwiw:)).

Steve Malton
28th May 2009, 10:45
The BSKF used to have an insurance officer; one of those rare (and valuable) individuals who not only display technical competance but also understand the way in which organisations work.
I believe this is mostly dealt with by Chris Lloyd these days alongside the membership admin - he usually seems to have the answers when I ask, anyway. And that sounds like a pretty fair description of him :D

I'm sure I have a copy of the master schedule at home. I remember asking for it when I only got the certificate through the post. I'll see if I can find it and post it here.
Chris, if you can dig that out please send me a copy and we'll get it on the BSKF site as Indar suggests.

David Dunn
28th May 2009, 10:49
I believe this is mostly dealt with by Chris Lloyd these days alongside the membership admin - he usually seems to have the answers when I ask, anyway. And that sounds like a pretty fair description of him :D

That's right Steve, Chris sensei is the insurance officer.

Indar
28th May 2009, 10:58
That's right Steve, Chris sensei is the insurance officer.

Chris is certainly very helpful, and pointed me in the right direction when I needed information, however i'm not sure that he is officially insurance officer; perhaps it would be more polite to ask him first ?

However my description of someone who combines technical ability with organisational understanding definitely applies; nice to see that recognised. :)

“Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius.”

(Arthur Conan Doyle)

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/mediocrity_knows_nothing_higher_than_itself-but/149573.html

Teko No Ri
28th May 2009, 12:33
Chris, if you can dig that out please send me a copy and we'll get it on the BSKF site as Indar suggests.


Hi Steve,

Hope you're well. When I find it I'll send it over to you.

Cheers,

JL.
28th May 2009, 13:38
Gassho!

Hopefully this won't come over as rude –!it's not meant that way!
Though the topic of insurance in general is of obvious interest to all kenshi, like some other topics in the past this has become entirely about the BSKF. IIRC a year or two ago someone introduced a purely BSKF forum. I suggest that discussions like this be taken there.
Of course, it would still be good to keep everything of general interest on this site, so I really don't mean to put someone off completely from posting here!

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Indar
28th May 2009, 14:36
Gassho!

Hopefully this won't come over as rude –!it's not meant that way!
Though the topic of insurance in general is of obvious interest to all kenshi, like some other topics in the past this has become entirely about the BSKF..

Rude doesn't always equate to bad; the intelligent use of rudeness can be productive. But your point about B.S.K.F. introspection is well taken.

What might be effective would be a structured W.S.K.O. forum with sub-sections for each federation or country. Country specific discussions could be split off as required to avoid bothering everyone else.

Tripitaka of AA
28th May 2009, 22:31
That might work.. do you think they could include a sub-forum for irritating, sarcastic bores? I can see how that might be useful.

Indar
29th May 2009, 08:05
That might work.. do you think they could include a sub-forum for irritating, sarcastic bores? I can see how that might be useful.

good idea.....let's discuss it at the next black belt course :laugh:.........

Indar
30th May 2009, 07:13
Hi all,

I'm sure I have a copy of the master schedule at home. I remember asking for it when I only got the certificate through the post. I'll see if I can find it and post it here.

Just been looking at the website of the British Kendo Association; could be a good example for both the B.S.K.F. and other W.S.K.O. Federations;

http://kendo.org.uk/

Annual accounts and executive committee minutes are available to the public via the website, demonstrating an excellent level of transparency and credibility.