Yesterday's Shorinji

[Ade]

Dear All

Gassho

One of the recurring themes on here is the assertion (usually by lapsed-kenshi) that the Shorinji of their day was better than present variation.

There is usually then a lengthy diatribe about "the kicks were more effective" or "embu is all show and no use in a real fight."

Allow me to point out some very obvious truths.

Firstly comparitive analysis requires that the person making the comparison between the old and the new versions has valid experience of both, so there has to be continuous training for 52 years.

Therefore all ex-kenshi with less than that cannot be considered impartial or valid.

Because, human vanity is such that everything that happened when the person that is telling the tale was younger is distorted by the rose coloured glasses of harking back to the time when they were young and fitter.

These erroneous assertions, (usually designed by them to make the infirm feel better about themselves in their dotage), are usually justified by the ultimate - the statement of "you can't argue with me after this because Doshin So didn't - do embu/do showy high kicks/have all his own teeth/use the new unified symbol.

Problem with that is nobody can prove them wrong 'cos he's dead and can't bear testimony about his true opinion on the matter at hand.

I would prefer that that is viewed from the other view point and that the ex-kenshi raised Doshin So by means of a weeji board to settle the arguement before making this flawed assertion that they're right until we prove them wrong.

And here's my final thought.

If the old style of Shorinji was actually better then how are you going to undo all the changes and remake it in it's original form?

There are only two options here, firstly that you kill everyone and start from scratch, totally recreating the entirety of human history and breeding to reproduce the socio-economic conditions that brought about the second world war and; therefore; created Doshin So and your "old-school Shorinji"

Or

You invent a time machine and keep stopping time and keep stopping and re-running it at when it gets to the point where you think it all went wrong.

Please don't bother to let me know which one you decide to waste your time on because, firstly because -I really don't care
And
secondly if either of the two options ever suceeds then I won't exist and; therefore; I can state with absolute certainty that I don't/won't/couldn't/can't care less about you, your opinions or your plan to bring back the yesterday's Shorinji Kempo.

Kesshu

PS I had 37 kenshi at training tonight at one of my clubs that trains on a Thursday,.
It was great and we all enjoyed ourselves but I'm sure that we would all have enjoyed it more if the kicks had been lower, the training more brutal and debillatating and we'd have finished off with some realistic full-contact street fighting randoori using clubs, live knives and the occasional Nambu 8mm pistol (just to keep things old school.)

pps We're all living in the real world and carrying on teaching Shorini Kempo to today's audience in a way that makes it valid to them rather than harking back to something that's extinct.
If you got your way then do you genuinely believe that the central goal of Shorinji (to create an ideal world) would be better served?

[Jeremy Williams]

Ade,

First, you would only need to have trained for around 30 years or so to have trained under Kaiso, and I've met a lot who did. There are differences of opinion on how SK has developed, but I would tend to see that in a positive light. Burying your head in the sand can have disastrous consequences, as Japan found out with the arrival of the black ships at the end of the 19th century. Therefore, irritating though it might be at times, I think we should encourage a bit of healthy debate on all this. After all, that's why we have the SK we have now.

[Ade]

Gassho

So let me get this right, by accepting and embracing change I'm burying my head in the sand.

Which, as everyone who knows me will attest, is exactly what I do all the time

Talk about missing the point....

Kesshu

[Jeremy Williams]

Gassho

So let me get this right, by accepting and embracing change I'm burying my head in the sand.

Which, as everyone who knows me will attest, is exactly what I do all the time

Talk about missing the point....

Kesshu

No, I'm not suggesting that you personally are burying your head in the sand, but you do seem to have a problem with people discussing whether SK has improved or not. All I am trying to say is that such debate is actually healthy for us.

Talk about missing the point...

[Ade]

So you want to waste time debating stuff that you can't change.

And I'm the one with the problem.

If that's too obtuse for you or you want to debate it go ahead.

Please please please go on.

Let me know whether it's the time machine or the kill everyone option you finally go for, I'd like to discuss it with my dog, Browning, who won't understand the preposition, it's healthy apparently.

[Jeremy Williams]

So you want to waste time debating stuff that you can't change.

And I'm the one with the problem.

If that's too obtuse for you or you want to debate it go ahead.

Please please please go on.

Let me know whether it's the time machine or the kill everyone option you finally go for, I'd like to discuss it with my dog, Browning, who won't understand the preposition, it's healthy apparently.

That's the whole point: debating stuff may not be such a waste of time. Enjoy the discussion with your dog.

[colin linz]

As long as we have decided on our two options, I’m all for building a time machine. Dr Who seems to have so much fun.

I’ve made reference to changes that I’ve seen in technique before, but I’m not sure that the point behind them was to define a way that was best. Just to make an observation that change had occurred. I admit it does interest me to wonder what the driving force for the change was. I remember a talk that Aosaka sensei gave in one of his visits here. He talked about the comparative social risks between France and Japan. He believed French kenshi needed more practical self defence skills than the Japanese kenshi. Basically he was making a statement on how the local needs shape the training. When looking at the training from this aspect it is clear that either way works out best for meeting the needs of those involved. Practical self defence is a factor in most people’s decision to learn Shorinji Kempo, I don’t think it is the prime concern of most kenshi though. There are a range of reasons why we begin and continue to study Shorinji Kempo. While these motives might share a common understanding, they will no doubt have a different hierarchal order depending on local culture and social circumstance.

[Rob Gassin]

PS I had 37 kenshi at training tonight at one of my clubs that trains on a Thursday,.
It was great and we all enjoyed ourselves but I'm sure that we would all have enjoyed it more if the kicks had been lower, the training more brutal and debillatating and we'd have finished off with some realistic full-contact street fighting randoori using clubs, live knives and the occasional Nambu 8mm pistol (just to keep things old school.)

pps We're all living in the real world and carrying on teaching Shorini Kempo to today's audience in a way that makes it valid to them rather than harking back to something that's extinct.
If you got your way then do you genuinely believe that the central goal of Shorinji (to create an ideal world) would be better served?

God Ade, you can be forceful in your opinions!!!

At least the part I've quoted above, I'm completely with you on. If you want to spread the SK message, you must present it in a package that the recipients find attractive and interesting. Evolution rules - If you don't evolve, you'll become extinct.

[PeterL]

I think that "change" is inevitable. I think that discussion about the change is worthwhile, not necessarily to turn back time but to "guide" SK development in the future.

I think that for all the discussion of 'change" it might be worthwhile considering that SK was designed with change in mind. "shu, ha, ri" if you will. It is certain that all will not agree with the changes that have been made, but change is inevitable. Mu thoughts on some of the major changes:


1) Manji: I think that this was a primarily a "business decision" to create a new logo that could be trademarked and protected. I can understand the reasoning behind it, and I think it is important to have a strong financial base. I will admit I do not know what hombu does with all the money they collect, nor am I particularly interested.
2) Technique changes: I have not really been around long enough for them- though my teachers always say this is a new technique, we used to do it this way, etc.

3) De-emphasization of randori. I think that it is to some degree doin by doin, but also a result of the "wants" of kenshi. The addition of the new face guard for safety is a real annoyance for me. It is hard to breathe and there is a huge blind zone caused by the jaw piece. The addition of the "safety rules basically means that you can kick and punch only to the body which makes randori a bit IN MY OPINION boring and certainly unrealistic. I think this has played a major role in the reduction of randori.

I believe this shift was caused by the death of a Kenshi here in Japan. (it was mentioned to me in passing).

Some senior sensei were telling us that "in the old days" when they had a taikai, they would have 12 courts, 11 would be randori and 1 embu. So I would say there definitely has been a big shift.

cheers

peter

[Rob Gassin]

Some observations from someone who has been involved with SK since 1983. I hasten to add that these are my observations and might not be others' experience.

Compared to 25 years ago:

1. Less time is dedicated to achieving 'perfect' kihon.

2. kenshi are presented with more variations of the the same technique (by the one instructor) and encouraged to think about these and why they work. In other words, emphasis has shifted from techniques to principles.

3. There is more emphasis on practical application rather than monkey-like mimickry.


Yes, maybe, we are less tough that in the 'good old days' but training is now much more stimulating and rewarding.

[sean dixie]

Some observations from someone who has been involved with SK since 1983. I hasten to add that these are my observations and might not be others' experience.

Compared to 25 years ago:

1. Less time is dedicated to achieving 'perfect' kihon.

2. kenshi are presented with more variations of the the same technique (by the one instructor) and encouraged to think about these and why they work. In other words, emphasis has shifted from techniques to principles.

3. There is more emphasis on practical application rather than monkey-like mimickry.


Yes, maybe, we are less tough that in the 'good old days' but training is now much more stimulating and rewarding.

I can't agree more. Randori, well we do plenty, with and without protection and I do try to run certain types of training 'old school', certain types 'new school'.

Studying priciples is essential and much more rewarding to the inquisitive mind. I find my students to be inquisitive - after freshers we lose the others to the 'harder' styles which is fine. It is easy to forget that Shorinji is so comprehensive as an art, and that there is room for everything, it is simply down to your Sensei.

[dirk.bruere]

Some observations from someone who has been involved with SK since 1983. I hasten to add that these are my observations and might not be others' experience.

Compared to 25 years ago:

1. Less time is dedicated to achieving 'perfect' kihon.

2. kenshi are presented with more variations of the the same technique (by the one instructor) and encouraged to think about these and why they work. In other words, emphasis has shifted from techniques to principles.

3. There is more emphasis on practical application rather than monkey-like mimickry.


Yes, maybe, we are less tough that in the 'good old days' but training is now much more stimulating and rewarding.

Actually, kihon has always been my favorite part of the class :(

Dirk

[paul browne]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Jeremy Williams]

Ah, that's better! Now, we are having a discussion. It must be the Brit in me, but when I read the last few posts I wanted to say, "Well, how about a nice cup of tea and some biscuits, then?"

As Churchill said: "Jaw, jaw; not war, war"...or something like that...yes, you can contact his estate to sue me if I got it wrong...

[Ade]

God Ade, you can be forceful in your opinions!!!

Dear All

Gassho

Just occasionally for a bit of a giggle I throw in a sarcastic flamer to see who will bite.

It's less fun now that my friend Tony's gone but it's still valuable, as is my friend Tony Kehoe, (who I would defend to the death in a fight or kill in an arguement over the word gi - just for a bit of a laugh.)

To be honest I'm sick and tired of this "old school was better" malarky.

We haven't got a time machine and we certainly can't stop evolution, (it's a needs based thing which is Darwinian in that those who are right will survive and those who aren't are ex-kenshi/branch masters/etc.)

So, where do we go? well the answer to that is up to you, because Doshin So is dead, and the only thing that keeps his ideals alive is you teaching from firmly held beliefs.

And if you hold a belief firmly then I believe you should express it firmly and robustly to those who disagree.

As Churchill, one of my heroes, also said:

"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."

I deal with politics and empire building every day at work, I won't suffer shilly shallying in my Shorinji, the idea that I should waste time harkening back to a past that I don't consider valid is an anathema to me.

So I'm not going to, but it makes me laugh hugely to observe those that do...does that make me a bad person.:up:

I do hope so, (in their eyes!)

Kesshu

[Kari MakiKuutti]

It's less fun now that my friend Tony's gone but it's still valuable, as is my friend Tony Kehoe, (who I would defend to the death in a fight or kill in an arguement over the word gi - just for a bit of a laugh.
The correct word is dogi. :)

[dirk.bruere]

The correct word is dogi. :)

Hence the question: "How much is that dogi in the window..."

Dirk

[Kari MakiKuutti]

Hence the question: "How much is that dogi in the window..."Dirk
About 100 € in Japan. About 200€ if imported legally to EU. :cry:

[Blue Popovic]

About 100 € in Japan. About 200€ if imported legally to EU. :cry:

Please do get your facts straight Wrong : the most expensive Gi will cost you (outside Japan) exactly £70 or €90 (that is the biggest size, top and pants + 3 embroided names -2 on top , one on pants) ordered from Ozaki. Yes you will have costs associated with shipping and possibly tax, but nowhere at a total in the region of the €200 claimed.

And while we're on the subject, can people stop whingeing at the price of their gi? what value do they actually place on this piece of clothing that is very practical, and is to the outside world the first way to recognise a kenshi? I have seen (and still do see) kenshi wear rags I would be ashamed to let my dog wear... kenshi that are over 25yo full-time working europeans, that CAN afford a new gi.
But then maybe they see Shorinji kempo training as casually as they do other things and place no value on it at all...?
The prices above mentioned represent in Europe or America represent a good night out, a meal for 2 in a restaurant ....small sacrifices for most. Or a little saving.
Then it's all about choice...what value do you place on your appearance as kenshi, in your training and the image you project on the outside world of our art ??? Your own pride, simply?

[JL.]

Gassho!

Blue-san, maybe You pay half as much as Kari-sensei because You just use/buy half the word? :laugh:
I'll try that next time I order one.
Seriously, I agree that not giving attention to one's Dogi might reflect a similar attitude to training in general. But I can also understand those who know that many more people could (more) easily afford a Dogi if it were locally manufactured, in license from WSKO. There certainly are trustworthy enough manufacturers, aren't there?
Still, I'm happy with the official Dogis I own and think that at least the Blue Label ones are quite affordable.

Of course in the olden days Dogis were much better made and tougher and could do techniques current Dogis wouldn't even dream of – in any kind of weather, too! :D

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[johan_frendin]

Gassho!

I have been into sports hole my life and currently help the trainers in my son’s hockey team and of course I train Shorinjikempo. In sports the main goal is develop the kids to perform better every year. If you cannot become better you will start to loose the game and that is not so good in sports.

Shorinjikempo is of course very different from hockey because it is not a sport but a way of life. But in the idea of becoming better as an art, organisation and as individuals it has its similarities.

If you want to become better either in hockey or Shorinjikempo you need to reflect the past and then project the future.

Reflection is taking time to look back on what things that worked and what didn’t in the past. Reflection allows us to learn and grow from our past experiences either it is from our own experiences or from videos or books. Doing this reflection successfully is about more than just collecting lessons, books and videos. Effective reflection it is about growing from those lessons, books and videos. In sport they analyse videos, training sessions and different coach’s ideas from the past in order to become better players. If we in Shorinjikempo see an instructor with some tremendous kenshi and they say the follow a certain idea of training we must gather this information and try to use it. If we see an old video from the past with kenshis that are very skilled in randori we must analyse it why they are so skilled and try to use it.

The next thing we need to do is to project the future. This means planning, thinking about the future, deciding what we want and then expecting to become better. We need to use our past experience and try to implement it in our regular training to become better as an art, organisation or as an individual kenshi.

In more practical words we need to ask ourselves and our instructor questions, all the time.

Why are other kenshi better juho than me? How can I become better in goho wasa? Why am I scared in randori sessions? Why is my training partner faster than I am? Why are other clubs more skilled in embu than ours? Is Shorinjikempo better than 30 years ago? Why is my instructor teaching this way? Why are there no randori in my club anymore? Why do we always do embu? Why does my instructor always wear a white t-shirt under the dogi and never sweats anymore?:D

Asking such questions and find the answers is one of the most powerful ways to develop as an art, organisation or individual kenshi.

Johan Frendin

[Rob Gassin]

Do we have KPIs in SK? What are they? if not, should we have some?

[johan_frendin]

Gassho!

Rob - KPIs -Key Performance Indicators?

Of course we have!

At every grading exam and at every embu taikai we count individual points.
If you not reach a certain point in grading exam you fail and it does not matter if it is a san kyu or a godan exam. These KPIs continues all your Shorinjikempo “life”.

Johan Frendin

[Rob Gassin]

Gassho!

Rob - KPIs -Key Performance Indicators?

Of course we have!

At every grading exam and at every embu taikai we count individual points.
If you not reach a certain point in grading exam you fail and it does not matter if it is a san kyu or a godan exam. These KPIs continues all your Shorinjikempo “life”.

Johan Frendin

Good answer Johan, of course you're correct. However, my question related more to Branch Master/Branch performance. Apart from bums on seats, how do we assess the performance of the Branch, as a whole?

[johan_frendin]

Gassho!

First – individual "KPI"
As I understand it is ok to have additional grading criteria’s “on top of” WSKO: s. If a branch master wants his students to show a complete embu, 5 knife defences or 100 pushups at the nikyu or ikkyu exam I think it is ok.

Second – Branch master/branch "KPI"
Formally no- Informally yes.

During the 80: s my instructor used to say that in Japan their where god instructors, very good instructors and then there are Nakano sensei. :) I have never seen or experienced this Nakano sensei but he shore made an impression of my sensei during the 80: s.

In all countries we judge branch masters and branches and rank them in different ways. Good randori clubs, good embu clubs, best branch master in the area, branch master with experience of reality etc.

Other martial arts also rank Shorinjikempo according to what the see. In the 80: s many said that Shorinjikempo was tougher than karate and kung fu. Nowadays many compare us with aikido and tai chi.

Shorinjikempo are constantly evaluated by kenshi and outsiders and is given a certain “KPI” either we want it or not.

Johan Frendin

[sean dixie]

Hi Johan, if their the same Nakano Sensei I know all I can say is I'm still feeling the pain six years on!:eek:

[dirk.bruere]

Hence the question: "How much is that dogi in the window..."

Dirk

Actually, that was a joke, but never mind.
Got some useful info from the answers.

Dirk

[Kari MakiKuutti]

I knew it was a joke, but it was you who envoked the spirit of Kimpatsu here.:)

My conclusion of the answers so far is that clothes make the man.

[dirk.bruere]

I knew it was a joke, but it was you who envoked the spirit of Kimpatsu here.:)

My conclusion of the answers so far is that clothes make the man.

In which case I am the emperor in my new gi.

Dirk