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Geoff
8th October 2008, 03:37
I've read in a few sources of the elder Funakoshi's efforts to broaden the scope of the Shotokan syllabus by permitting his son Gigo (Yoshitaka) to cross-train in other dojo and with other teachers. In one story Gigo meets an old man on Okinawa who teaches him a kata in secrecy. The mysterious teacher allegedly tells young Funakoshi that he has only taught the kata in a modified (diluted) form to others and is giving Gigo the real deal.

So, here's my question - if the story is true what kata did Gigo learn, could it be one of the weird (compared to Shorin-ryu) Shotokan variations of a shorin kata such as Meikyo or even Sochin? OR, is this story just a cover for the "Shotokanization" of Okinawan kata - essentially allowing the JKA to save face for monkeying around with kata that the Okinawans knew well?

Both of these are provocative positions - the first rubs Okinawan karateka the wrong way by suggesting that one of their kata is an inaccurate version - that in fact the Japanese karateka may know a bit of their karate heritage they don't know themselves. The second question provokes Shotokan karateka by resurrecting the old saw that the Shotokan method simply simplified Okinawan karate.

So let's argue it out since it's all speculation anyway. Thoughts?

Andrew S
8th October 2008, 21:52
Other possibilities:
*Yoshitaka never taught the kata to anyone else or he taught it to only a select few, who didn't pass it on to their students.
*It is one of those "rare" kata that never made it into the mainstream Shotokan/Shotokai curriculm. (For an example of "rare", think of Hyakuhachiho, a version of Suparinpei)
*It fell into disuse during the war and the post-war organisations were unable to reconstruct it.
*The unnamed Okinawan master fed the same story to everyone he taught the kata to.

Geoff, I've often wondered about this too, and am glad you brought up the topic.

john_lord_b3
9th October 2008, 10:04
Since our discussions has already gone that direction, allow me to provide some videoclips to aid our further correspondence.

Here are several varations of the Kata UNSU, the favorite tournament Kata

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi8rHWmzZ9c

Shotokan version of Unsu by Kanazawa shihan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLrqgGPKelA

Wado version of Unsu by Ajari sensei

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDtCZQN60Xc

Shito-ryu version by Rose sensei

Unsu were created by Aragaki Seisho, and it is said that both Funakoshi and Mabuni Kenwa learned from him, and Otsuka (founder of Wado) learned under both men.

The three different versions of Unsu might be useful to illustrate the variations thereof, and as a way to gauge how much adjustments and alterations could have been done to a Kata.

Kevin73
10th October 2008, 20:19
I've read in a few sources of the elder Funakoshi's efforts to broaden the scope of the Shotokan syllabus by permitting his son Gigo (Yoshitaka) to cross-train in other dojo and with other teachers. In one story Gigo meets an old man on Okinawa who teaches him a kata in secrecy. The mysterious teacher allegedly tells young Funakoshi that he has only taught the kata in a modified (diluted) form to others and is giving Gigo the real deal.

So, here's my question - if the story is true what kata did Gigo learn, could it be one of the weird (compared to Shorin-ryu) Shotokan variations of a shorin kata such as Meikyo or even Sochin? OR, is this story just a cover for the "Shotokanization" of Okinawan kata - essentially allowing the JKA to save face for monkeying around with kata that the Okinawans knew well?

Both of these are provocative positions - the first rubs Okinawan karateka the wrong way by suggesting that one of their kata is an inaccurate version - that in fact the Japanese karateka may know a bit of their karate heritage they don't know themselves. The second question provokes Shotokan karateka by resurrecting the old saw that the Shotokan method simply simplified Okinawan karate.

So let's argue it out since it's all speculation anyway. Thoughts?

I have read this passage from Funakoshi's autobiography as well. I guess my main thinking has been.

1) It was a variation of a known kata and just didn't fit in with the rest of the curriculum.

2) This is the one I lean more towards. He was probably an elderly gentleman and was proud of what he had learned, but the kata wasn't worth anything to pass on. Respect was paid to have it shown and that was the end of it.

I lean more towards number 2 because, if you REALLY were trying to spread your art, what better way than talking about secret katas. Also, there is NO other mention of it anywhere by anyone. It seems that SOMEONE would have claimed to have learned this kata and tried to cash in on it as some point.

Andrew S
3rd November 2008, 21:11
Do you suppose there is an off-chance that the kata in question was kobudo and not empty handed? That might explain some of Yoshitaka's weapons work (think Matsukaze, which is believed to be Yoshitaka's creation)

dsomers
3rd November 2008, 22:08
I didnt know Matsukaze was taught within Shotokan. I thought it was a Shito Ryu Kata, & known in many Okinawan systems as Wankan?

David

samertz
4th November 2008, 01:01
I didnt know Matsukaze was taught within Shotokan.
David

Matsukaze in Shotokai/Shotokan is a Bo kata. It's not the same as the empty hand kata.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIDJ9bBQnfQ

Scot

Andrew S
4th November 2008, 01:31
I didnt know Matsukaze was taught within Shotokan. I thought it was a Shito Ryu Kata, & known in many Okinawan systems as Wankan?
It also exists in Shotokan as wankan.

dsomers
4th November 2008, 01:48
I think Shorin Ryu's version of Wankan is different, you can see Nagamine Sensei doing it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS4IaowOn0o

Simon Keegan
4th November 2008, 09:01
Could it be Sochin or Nijushiho Sho?

Andrew S
4th November 2008, 11:55
Could it be Sochin or Nijushiho Sho?

The sochin theory is up for discussion.

I think you mean Gojushiho Sho (as there is only one Nijushiho).
Incidently, in the SKIF, the Dai and Sho versions of Gojushiho are reversed from the JKA order.

Does any suppose the mystery kata was taught to Funakoshi's very early students (Obata, Gima etc)?

Simon Keegan
4th November 2008, 14:04
I've definitely heard of a Nijushiho Sho (there's quite a few hits in Google for it as well).

I think I first heard of it in Dennis Wilton's book.

I have only been taught one version myself though.

According to the now defunct 24 Fighting Chickens website, the order of Gojushiho was reversed when a JKA master anounced the wrong kata in a competition and everybody played along so he'd save face.

Kevin73
4th November 2008, 15:16
I wonder why also the kata was not shown to Mabuni. He had MANY more of the okinawan kata and it seems he would have been knowledgable about the more effective ones.

cxt
4th November 2008, 16:51
Simon

The 24 fighting chickens site is up and running.

Simon Keegan
5th November 2008, 09:30
I mean the original 24 Fighting Chickens which had seemingly thousands of articles - the current one is much scaled down

Andrew S
5th November 2008, 20:37
According to Harry Cook's Shotokan Karate - A Precise History, p.302 Funakoshi also mentioned kata like Wanduan, Wandu, Jumu and Kokan in his 1922 book, and that these kata are rare or unknown. Could any of these be the mystery kata?

samertz
5th November 2008, 22:22
Wanduan and Wando are pretty easy to find. John Sells put out Wando on video a few years ago and the Ryukyu Kempo guys do Wanduan or Wandan. Jumu is a really short Sanchin-ish kata. The only one that is really a mystery is Kokan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLn9hM-k4O0 - Wanduan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8o0pfsf3IE - Wando

A lot of these kata were made up and forgotten in the same breath. Some of these old kata survived and some didn't. I think Kokan is one of those one's that is really lost. Other than Funakoshi's writings I haven't even seen that one mentioned anywhere. I makes me wonder if he put it in Katakana or in Kanji originally. The books that I have are all later editions so a lot of things were edited and changed into katakana. If it was in Kanji it might have been one of those ones that was lost in translation and not really a lost kata as per say.

Scot

Andrew S
20th February 2011, 21:02
A bit of thread necromancy here, but something cropped up at practice yesterday.

According to my instructor:
* There are few records of the kata Kanku-Sho existing pre-war (it may have been created by Itosu... or someone else?)
* There is evidence to suggest that the Shotokan version of Kanku-Dai is actually much closer to the original Koshokun than a lot of the current versions practiced in Okinawa now.

Could one of the Kanku be the mystery kata?