Daito ryu USA (John Denora)

[Cat]

I don't know much about him. Does anyone know his story. I do know that he is friends with Al Holtman of the San Diego Judo Club.

You may email me isdc@pacbell.net

Thanks,

Cat

[M.C. Busman]

Here are the posts on that subject which went out some time last year or before for those who wanna (or gotta) know:
--------

Terry
Member posted 10-21-1999 18:23
Anyone have any info on John Denora and
his Daito Ryu U.S.A also did he recive
Kyoju Dairi Certificate ( is this right )
I know he is listed as Judan in Daito Ryu
( U.S.A ) Jujutsu in a shokeship group
by Frank Sanchez?
Terry
------------------
Keep Going !!!!!

Nathan Scott
Member posted 10-21-1999 18:34
Hello,
Mr. Denora has been affiliated with ligitimate Daito ryu branchs in the
past, but is no longer aligned with anyone. I don't know what if any kind
of rank or certification he has received from these groups in the past, or
for how long/seriously he studied.
I can tell you I met him once or twice in passing, and he enthusiastically
issued Daito ryu membership cards on the spot to the majority of the people
in the room, writing the names in by hand.
Mr. Denora resides in San Diego.
HTH,
------------------
Nathan Scott
Shinkendo/ Aiki Buken Honbu dojo
Tsuki Kage dojo

Kempo Guy
Member posted 10-22-1999 15:41
Mr. Denora has a Jun Kyoju Dairi Ceritification issued by the late Yonezawa
Sensei of the Daito Ryu Bokuyokan. I was told he actually travelled to
Hokkaido and stayed with Yonezawa Sensei to learn Daito Ryu as well.
He was also a long time student of F. Lovret of the Yamate Ryu and Tenshin
Ryu, although I believe his study was mainly in the Tenshin Ryu.
He was also at one time a student of Kiyama Sensei of the Kodokai, although
I do not know for how long.
I believe he also has a 7th Dan ranking in Danzan Ryu Jujutsu, although I
have heard it is an honorary rank. I think he also has a Shodan ranking in
Yoshinkan Aikido as well under Sam Combes Sensei.
As for his tenth degree ranking in one of the soke groups......
He founded his Daito Ryu USA and Daito Ryu International as a "study group"
to perpetuate the teachnings of Sokaku Takeda and Denora's teacher,
Yonezawa Sensei.
He is a very interesting character and is quite knowledgeable in regards to
the martial arts, both Japanese and Chinese, as he was also involved in
Chinese Martial Arts for a long time.
As for his skill in Daito Ryu I can not really comment much on. He does
know the Bokuyokan curriculum, although he also teaches stuff from the
mainline AikiBudo techniques (I have no idea as to where he was taught
these.....) He has not been aligned with the Bokuyokan for several years,
although he kept in touch with Yonezawa Sensei. Also as far as I know, he
never issued rank through the Bokuyokan, only through his own organization.

Hope this helps.
Steven Resell
[This message has been edited by Kempo Guy (edited 10-23-1999).]

Toby Threadgill
Member posted 10-25-1999 14:16
Terry,
The fact that Mr Denora promoted a notorious charlatan in New York who was
a nidan in Yoshinkan Aikido to rokudan in Aikijujutsu says it all to me.
Check out a letter to the editor in Aikido Journal Vol.26, No. 1 .......
Toby Threadgill
Soryushin Dojo

George Kohler
Moderator posted 10-25-1999 15:29
Hi Toby,
This notorious charlatan wouldn't be a guy, by the name Graham, would it?
------------------
George Kohler
Genbukan Kusakage Dojo

Kempo Guy
Member posted 10-26-1999 23:51
I have seen Denora "give" out ranks to other instructors (some are
notorious) as well.
I am also familiar with the person in question as well, although this
person I believe is aligned with a different organization these days.
Steven Resell
[This message has been edited by Kempo Guy (edited 10-27-1999).]

Ron Tisdale
Member posted 10-28-1999 10:25
I don't know if this is the same guy, but I did see a "graham" from new
york demonstrate at a Yoshinkan seminar recently. *I* certainly wouldn't
call him a "charlatan" to his face. While he was far from the best at the
demonstation, he was definately more than adequate. Can anyone point me to
an online reference for the letter to the editor in Aikido Journal Vol.26,
No. 1? I'd really like to see it.
Ron Tisdale

hisashi otake
New Member posted 11-10-1999 14:23
Denora got his nidan from the late Yonezawa,
his stay at Yonezawa's residence was maybe a month or so in the early
eighties.

MC Busman
New Member posted 11-11-1999 06:44
It's late/early, so please excuse the choppiness. . .
Regarding John Denora, mention was made of the letter in Aiki Journal Vol.6
no.1. The situation is better understood if one also has the opportunity to
read the letters on pg.5 of vol.25 no.2, and pgs.4-5 of vol.25 no.3. Both
letters deal with "Bogus Daito Ryu Rankings" and include replies from
editor Stanley Pranin. Worth reading, but too complex to discuss in toto
here. The gist of the writer & editor's irritation revolves around Denora's
(and now others) use of the title/rank grandmaster 10th dan in Daito Ryu,
and the certificates he hands out like candy (very expensive candy) with no
requirement to demonstrate or learn complete d.r. technique. Graehm Lewis
(sp?), an Aikido 2nd dan at the time was one of the first recipients of
Denora's promotions--to 7th dan, then 6th after a single seminar (Pranin of
the Aikido Journal, unlike me, has the decency and grace not to mention
specific names).
The major problems I see with this are as follows. Denora himself does
_not_ make any sort of effort to explain to fellow teachers or students
that 1. his 10th dan rank is an honor bestowed by fellow (mostly US)
martial artists in Sanchez's group, and has nothing to do with his
proficiency or actual ranking in traditional Daito Ryu, but is rather a
sign of respect for his age, years of studying different martial arts, the
fact that he has friends who, like all others who are promoted by this sort
of organization, were willing to recommend & approve him. 2. That Daito Ryu
USA is simply a study group composed of interested individuals who want to
preserve the teachings of Yonezawa and other D.R. greats. But then, a study
group wouldn't issue ranks like that. . .
Having watched him perform a few years back at a seminar/banquet, and
having spoken recently with a former student of his, John Denora's D.R.USA
is not straight "traditional" Daito Ryu, but includes techniques he has
gleaned from other teachers (including aiki & sword with Lovrett who
introduced him to Yonezawa & co, and whomever he studied under during his
Bak fu Pai days--someone also mentioned his recent 1st dan in Yoshinkan
Aikido, and I've heard that he was a godan or rokudan in Judo years back?)
and even videos. No, I don't think that there's anything wrong with that!
But if compiling techniques from so many different sources, why use the
name Daito Ryu? Just my opinion, but strikes me as misleading, and gives
the wrong impression about legit D.R. schools. . .
Now as to some of my recent conversations w/ a former student. According to
this person, Mr. Denora apparently has a habit of badmouthing people to
others, being very verbally abusive towards his students, and occasionally
throws tantrums in class. The student seemed puzzled over his behavior, not
bitter or angry with him--actually expressed concern and wondered if this
was a personality flaw he couldn't help, or maybe something related to an
organic health problem. . .who knows. Due to _my_ skepticism, actually sent
me a copy of a video of a seminar which Denora did that opens with him
basically telling the seminar participants how unworthy they were of his
presence, and of Daito Ryu! 'Course, we all have our bad days
Having said this what I did witness him demonstrate, both in person years
back and on the tape from his student showed a fair level of skill. If his
student's contentions are to be believed, it is a pity that he doesn't have
the temperment and good judgement to go along with these skills.
Daito Ryu USA should be considered a modern, _hybrid art_ with _some_
kodokai D.R. influence.
*busman*
------------------
"The facts speak for themselves"
--Euripides

[Justin Campbell]

From what I have heard... RUN. If you are looking for Daito-ryu, that is. Like the posts say... he may have earned a Nidan (may) and that is it... he is no grandmaster! He is skilled in other arts and is passing on what he does as Daito-ryu... and it is not.

My 0.02
Justin

[Roger Lake]

I have met Mr. Denora personally, and I was there to witness the event that Mr. Threadgill was being a gentleman in describing. Yes he did train with Yonezawa when Yonezawa was still with the Kodokai, from what I had gathered, he had gotten a hiden mokuroku from Yonezawa(Yonezawa,by the way, gave out so much rank in the 70's and 80's that I would only view such ranks with a humongous grain of salt).
Later on, he started his "Daito-ryu USA" organization and then started passing himself off as a 10th dan and the "father" of American Aikijujutsu.
I was at the seminar in which he promoted a particular gentleman from Long Island who teaches Yoshinkan aikido to 6th dan in Daito-ryu. So here is a self promoted 10th dan(please!) promoting this guy to a rank higher than the one he received from Yonezawa in the first place(I need an aspirin).
Incidentally, the person in question in Long Island also made a tape on the Ikkajo series of Daito-ryu after two weekend seminars with Kawabe sensei from the Daito-ryu Takumakai. We left the seminar in disgust.
Anyway, hope this helps. Sincerely,
Roger Lake

[FritzCat]

http://www.johndenora.com/

For your viewing pleasure....

Fritz Greenbaum

[Nathan Scott]

Hey, Mr. Denora again.

BTW, it's probably worth reiterating that the Hiden Mokuroku that was issued by Yonezawa Sensei while he was still in the Kodokai were apparently (at least largely) issued independently; ie: the Kodokai Honbu did not issue them.

I suspect this may have been an issue with the Kodokai Honbu and Yonezawa Sensei.

Regards,

[Nathan Scott]

Is it me, or is there nothing on this web page except for a photo and music? If there is a link to anything else, I can't find it in the source code.

BTW, I find it interesting that the only text on the page says "Samurai Techniques", but the photo seems to show a katana displayed edge down with the hilt to the right.

I wouldn't think an oversight like this would instill confidence in the prospective student.

Nice photo though, other than that.

Oh yeah - CAT: please sign all posts with your real, full name per forum policy. Hope this thread is helpful.

Regards,

[Edited by Nathan Scott on 01-29-2001 at 08:42 PM]

[Devon Smith]

I found that the page is showing a pretty large Macromedia Flash file. You have to let it load. Even then, I could only get to a certain point before the page froze while indicating there was more data to be retrieved.

It's very pretty, and the shakuhachi is nice, but a couple of images are reversed (makes it seem there might be a left-handed swordsman out there somewhere). Also the word "kenjujutsu" strayed across the screen. I haven't heard reference to this before. Can anyone help?

Devon

[MarkF]

Hey, there is someone here who remembers Fritz the Cat comics and the movies. So maybe I'm not the only elder hippy who reads the lists here. A :moon: for ya! :D

Mark

[MarkF]

I thought the works aikijujutsu were clickable which just redirected me to the Macromedia.com search page, then realized it was still loading.

Last page was contact data for private training, etc.

Mark

BTW: Is that the only known photo of Denora? He reminds me of Angus Scrim in those strange movies I've seen. BBBrrrrrr.
:eek:

[Roger Lake]

There are some old photos of him in the winter 1994-1995 issue of "Budo Dojo", an old Pacific Rim Company publication. There was an article on Daito-ryu in that magazine which he wrote(not very accurate BTW). I agree with Mr. Scott on the validity of the issuances of those rank by Yonezawa. I believe that this also led to Yonezawa forming his own faction(I believe also that his Bokuyokan faction is a Christian association). He was apparently running a dojo in San Diego the last time I ran into him about 5-6 years ago, but as far what he is doing presently, I don't know(don't care either, to be perfectly honest).
Thank You,
Roger

{deleted double-post; NS}

[Edited by Nathan Scott on 01-31-2001 at 12:02 PM]

[12thPowerEnergyField]

Hi there,
I met Professor Denora a few years ago at Frank Sanchez' annual awards event in Orlando. (Denora gave me a life membership card in DaitoRy USA)
A very intersting man, who had lots to say about DaitoRyu and its modern history. Supposedly he was writing a book about it.
I do not recall who he said he trained with--quite a few teachers as I understand. It seemed to me he mentioned Sagawa Sensei of the DaitoRyu. Does anyone know if this was the case?

Bill Rodgers

[Roger Lake]

I don't know about the whole Sagawa sensei thing. If he was referring to Yukiyoshi Sagawa, I don't think so because it was my understanding that Sagawa sensei didn't accept foreign students. If he was referring to Sogawa who heads up the Saigo-ha group from Kyushu, maybe, but according to Kondo sensei, this group is not Daito-ryu.
From the conversations I have had with John Denora (several a few years ago), I wouldn't place too much credence in what he says.

Roger Lake

[Jerry Johnson]

On some webpage I seen John Denora's name which I think was the Saigo-ha of Canada?There is nothing about him on his web-page other then phone numbers. I am going to give Denora a jingle and ask. Nothing annoys me worst then a great webpage that doesn't say anything.

[Roger Lake]

If your interest is in learning Daito-ryu, don't waste the money on the long distance phone call. That guy from Canada is an even bigger waste of time. Total fraud.

Roger Lake

[Jerry Johnson]

Who do you recommend for Daito ryu if someone was interested?

BTW, I haven't called John Denora yet. I am going by the element of surprise. A phone ninja is really what I am. Kidding a side, I haven't had chance to call. I would really like to know who you recommend out side of the Saigo-ha in Canada to learn Daito ryu in the US.

[Ron Tisdale]

If you are on the east coast, specifically near Baltimore, there is an official study group under John Goss Sensei, a 5th dan yudansha in aikido. The study group is affiliated with Kondo Sensei, of the mainline branch of Daito ryu. There have been (I believe) 3 seminars with Kondo Sensei so far hosted by Goss Sensei's group.

Having been to the last seminar, I would recommend that group if you are looking for exposure to the main line school of Daito ryu aikijujutsu.

There are also various Roppokai dojo and study groups...I believe that Mark Jacobsen and Brently Keen (both on this board) would be good contacts for this branch. I believe that they could also recommend contacts for other branches as well (not to mention who *not* to contact).

Good Luck,

Ron Tisdale

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Ron wrote: "There are also various Roppokai dojo and study groups...I believe that Mark Jacobsen and Brently Keen (both on this board) would be good contacts for this branch. I believe that they could also recommend contacts for other branches as well (not to mention who *not* to contact). "

Jerry,
The group I train with is no longer associated with the Roppokai, however, if you would like contact information I would be happy to help, just e-mail me. I am not aware of any Daito-ryu groups in Minnesota although that doesn't mean one doesn't exsist. Sorry I can't be of more assistance.

mark

[gmarquay]

There is a John Denora who teaches Daito Ryu in San Diego. He does not seem to have a web site that I can find, and I have recieved no answer at the phone number that I have found online.

Does anyone here know (of) him? Is he a legitamate Daito Ryu instructor?

Glenn Marquay

[Arman]

Glenn,

As far as I know, he is not affiliated in any way with the mainline tradition under Kondo Sensei. I can't speak for the other groups out there, nor with whom he may have trained and for how long.

If you check him out, just ask a few good questions and you'll have your answer in five minutes or less.

Regards,
Arman Partamian

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Denora is infamous in Daito ryu circles.

I met him once at a private party in Los Angeles some years ago (budo people mainly), and he was introducing himself to people, asking their name and then filling out a lifetime membership card into his "USA Daito ryu" organization (Takeda mon and all) and issuing them out to people - unsolicited, of course.

What qualifications does Mr. Denora have to found his own Daito ryu organization? Good question.
Unless your just morbidly curious, I would not pursue this person further.

BTW, I think there is an existing thread in this forum that discusses Mr. Denora's contributions to DR.

Regards,

[FritzCat]

Several years ago I attended a school whose owner was a friend of Mr. Denora, and often had him come in to teach us some jujutsu basics. Me not knowing much about it, he seemed to know what he was doing, i.e. his techniques were effective. I don't know about the authenticity of his lineage, he did throw a lot of (famous)names around. Lineage and effectiveness aside, I thought he was a bitter, argumentative man who seemed to take pleasure in causing extra pain to the students who came with him to assist. I believe it got so bad that the owner of the school asked him not to return. Mr. Denora is getting on in years and does like to ramble on about unrelated subjects,including his glorious past. He may have a lot of knowledge but be prepared to put up with a LOT of BS to get it.

[john denora]

Originally posted by Justin Campbell
From what I have heard... RUN. If you are looking for Daito-ryu, that is. Like the posts say... he may have earned a Nidan (may) and that is it... he is no grandmaster! He is skilled in other arts and is passing on what he does as Daito-ryu... and it is not.

My 0.02
Justin
Just-in you should stop running your mouth because what has been posted about me by you are slanderous assumptions. Which makes me question you as a true Budoka. Is it possible you have a mean streak in you that makes you say such nasty things about people you really do not know? Some people have said the same about you and your teacher.
I blame your teacher for what you have said. Are you like him. Are you emulating your teacher.
And I do not know if it is true. When we were face to face in NYC and perhaps NJ ,you did not seem to be this kind of person who makes such libellous and slanderous statements.
John Denora
Nichijo Kore Dojo

[john denora]

Originally posted by FritzCat
Several years ago I attended a school whose owner was a friend of Mr. Denora, and often had him come in to teach us some jujutsu basics. Me not knowing much about it, he seemed to know what he was doing, i.e. his techniques were effective. I don't know about the authenticity of his lineage, he did throw a lot of (famous)names around. Lineage and effectiveness aside, I thought he was a bitter, argumentative man who seemed to take pleasure in causing extra pain to the students who came with him to assist. I believe it got so bad that the owner of the school asked him not to return. Mr. Denora is getting on in years and does like to ramble on about unrelated subjects,including his glorious past. He may have a lot of knowledge but be prepared to put up with a LOT of BS to get it.
Dear FRITZ CAT you are 100%correct. Mr. Denora is a bit of a pain giver.But at least it is controlled and intentional."Pain makes believers of them all."
I am told you are a mean person who occasionally pretends to know it all. Do you think you may have an overinflated ego in you youthful years?
Who cares about lineage. You should care about improving your mind which needs a lot of improvement and education. What is your school grade level? I bet only the 8th grade.
What is your lineage? Were you born in a house or in a cave? Does this help your snobbishness to tell such slander and build up your little ego.
John Denora
Owner of Nichijo Kore Dojo Where real Daito Ryu is done by the students

[A.J. Bryant]

Errrr... Huh?

Shall we discuss Yonezawa's well known "money for mokuroku" policy in public Mr. Denora?

[john denora]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Mr. Denora is infamous in Daito ryu circles.

I met him once at a private party in Los Angeles some years ago (budo people mainly), and he was introducing himself to people, asking their name and then filling out a lifetime membership card into his "USA Daito ryu" organization (Takeda mon and all) and issuing them out to people - unsolicited, of course.

What qualifications does Mr. Denora have to found his own Daito ryu organization? Good question.
Unless your just morbidly curious, I would not pursue this person further.

BTW, I think there is an existing thread in this forum that discusses Mr. Denora's contributions to DR.

Regards,

Quote Quote
You may have met Mr John Denora at a Christmas party years ago. You also have not been on the mats with him. He remembers you well and you accepted the membership card. Was you face screwed on right at the time or what?
You do not know Daito Ryu and we care less about what you say.
The life membership card symblized an invation to education in an unique martial art not to be mistaken for a certificate or diploma. You must have assumed this card was some of sort rank and if you were upset by the card why did you not return it when you where face to face with Mr. Denora. Who is concerned weather or not he is infamous he is feared.
John Denora and Students of Daito Ryu USA

[Nathan Scott]

Oh, I see. It's my turn.


You may have met Mr John Denora at a Christmas party years ago. You also have not been on the mats with him. He remembers you well and you accepted the membership card.

Nice try, but it was not me that you issued the card too, so I guess you are remembering someone else "well". You issued a card to one of my associates, and to a few other people who were there. The person I know that you had issued the card to showed it to me laughing, saying how "some guy just asked me my name and issued me this life time membership card in Daito ryu USA".

But no worries, I would not have had any interest in membership in such a "Daito ryu" franchise if you had offered one to me as well - which is funny, because I AM very interested in Daito ryu.

You are correct though that I have not trained on the mats with you, and for all I know, you may have had or still do possess some level of skill. However, that is not what is being discussed here. "Skill" is a subjective opinion that can't be fairly debated over the net without some kind of common reference.


Was you face screwed on right at the time or what?

Yes, I had quite a nice time in fact. Thanks for asking.


You do not know Daito Ryu and we care less about what you say.

...care less about what I say - than what? You seem to think you know quite a bit about me. Interesting.

Out of curiousity, I don't know about Daito ryu compared to who?


The life membership card symblized an invation to education in an unique martial art not to be mistaken for a certificate or diploma. You must have assumed this card was some of sort rank and if you were upset by the card why did you not return it when you where face to face with Mr. Denora.

I guess you forgot to explain that part. But since the card was issued at no charge, neither I nor my associate were confused that the cards you were issuing were symbolic of a rank or diploma.

BTW, just because people don't throw the card back in your face does not mean that being given the card holds any significance. I would have probably waited until I got home to file it in the circular file cabinet. I'm too polite for that. ;)


Who is concerned weather or not he is infamous he is feared.

Feared? I've got to hire a new P.R. man. And what does all this have to do with the weather?

Anyway welcome to e-budo,

[Nathan Scott]

Since Mr. Denora has been nice enough to join us here, we should probably provide references to what is being discussed in this thread to be fair.


Can anyone point me to an online reference for the letter to the editor in Aikido Journal Vol.26, No. 1? I'd really like to see it.

Here ya go (page 5), written by our own Dan Harden:


Bogus Daito-ryu Rankings

I am writing this letter to ask you to address the fraudulent situation that is occurring regarding Daito-ryu ranking and representatives on the east coast of th United States. I have been training there off and on for several years now and the frauds I have met were staggering in their boldness. To the untrained eye one would have to conclude either that there are more shihans on the east coast than in all of Japan and that this region island is the Mecca of martial arts in th U.S., or that there is a startling number of self-promoted boy wonders out here.

Recently, I engaged in an e-mail exchange with an instructor of a major aikido organization. The following is a history of his ranking by his own admission. This man was a shodan last year [1997] in one Daito-ryu organization. He seems to have paid considerable money to obtain this rank and all of his qualifications for it were obtained over a weekend seminar in New York. While still part of that Daito-ryu organization, he received a 7th dan ranking from an American instructor who has assumed the title of 10th dan headmaster of another Daito-ryu organization he himself has established. This organization has no connection to any of the legitimate branches of Daito-ryu in Japan that I know of.

After I and several others told this instructor that this situation was preposterous and that he would be considered a fraud, this individual sent out letters to several people including your editor [Stan Pranin] saying he would return the rank, and pursue his career in aikido. The next thing I know someone tells me he has placed a full page ad in one of the martial art "glamour magazines" calling himself a 6th dan in Daito-ryu. I obtained a copy and there it was. A full-page ad no less.

So in the short span of time that I have corresponded with this man, he has gone form 1st dan to 7th dan rank and then to 6th dan.

I have talked about this matter with several people in the following organizations: Daito-ryu Kodokai; Daito-ryu Roppokai; and the Daito-ryu Honbu Dojo. It is my understanding that this individual is now banned from attending any seminars or events of these organizations.

To add insult to injury, there is a new organization that has been formed by a former shihan of Daito-ryu. I understand that our of the six schools he started, four have returned their ranks and affiliations after realizing they didn't even know proper ukemi!

The largest legitimate Daito-ryu organization that exists in New York, is the Daito-ryu Kodokai headed by Roy Goldberg, th east coast representative under Sensei Hayawo Kiyama. This group has been trying to educate and show the difference in real Daito-ryu technique, apparently to no avail.

How can this go on? There seems to be no acknowledgement that these overnight sensations are stealing the reputation and history of Daito-ryu. I see people like Goldberg Sensei (who has truly stunning technique) study in quiet, in true shugyo fashion for 15 years, then turn around to find that students who have studied for one year outrank them.

It is my hope that your readership may start to question these self-made senseis of Daito-ryu, and to research the status of anyone who claims heritage to this wonderful art. Perhaps, since you know several of the leaders in Japan, you could set the record straight as far as acknowledged schools in this area and just leave out the questionable ones.

Dan Harden, Spencer, Massachusetts

The "former shihan of a school of Daito ryu" is a reference to Yonezawa and his Daito ryu Bokuyokan organization.

Following is Aikido Journal's (http://www.aikidojournal.com) Editor Stanley Pranin's response to this letter:


We dislike publishing articles critical of specific individuals as a matter of policy. However, in this particular case I have personally seen much of the correspondance exchanged and have had direct contact with the person in question. I find the conduct of this and other individuals to be truly outrageous. In one e-mail exchange I wrote to this instructor the following concerning his rank from the Daito-ryu organization alluded to above:

"It is well and good that you have the high ranking you need. The problem I have is that the name of Daito-ryu is a good one and has credibility because of the efforts of Sokaku Takeda and his successors. Does Mr. X have a 7th dan ranking from a legitimate Daito-ryu organization? if so, which one and who gave it? If he has started his own group, why is he using the name of 'Daito-ryu' knowing what it means historically. This can only lead to confusion. I personally as the editor of Aikido Journal will have nothing to do with such bogus rankings and those who use them to fool the public. That's where I stand on the issue."

In closing, I must say that it is refreshing to see so many voices raised in protest against this kind of behavior which is so damaging to the aiki arts. - [Editor]

So, what ranks have you been issued by legitimate Daito ryu organizations Mr. Denora? Please tell us a bit about your training history.

Regards,

This ought to get interesting... :rolleyes:

[Nathan Scott]

Regarding John Denora, mention was made of the letter in Aiki Journal Vol.26 no.1. The situation is better understood if one also has the opportunity to read the letters on pg.5 of vol.25 no.2, and pgs.4-5 of vol.25 no.3.

The letter from Vol 25/No.2, with response, is listed above.

Per suggesion, here is the letter and response by the editor from pages 4-5 of Vol. 25/ No. 3, which is a follow up to Dan's letter posted above:


Bogus Daito-ryu Rankings

In response to the letter by Dan Harden (Spencer, Massachusettes) on a certain individual living in eastern USA, who went from a 1st dan in Daito-ryu to a 7th dan, and back to a 6th dan, all within a year, I offer the following comments.

Since I know both this person and the gentleman who awarded him the high ranks as well as the inside story on this and current situation of the martial art of Daito- ryu, I would like to offer this insight so the readers will better understand the facts which are involved in this situation.

Before we jump on this person, we have to look at the martial arts as they exist today and take this case into proper perspective. Every martial art practiced today is a hybrid of the original art created by its founder. With the death of the creator of 99% of all martial arts, comes internal power struggles and breakaways which splinter the arts into several variants. As an aikido practitioner, you only have to look at your own art to see this on a grand scale. With the death of Sokaku Takeda, Ueshiba (O-Sensei) was just one of many senior students who established a new version of Sokaku's version of Daito-Ryu, then, with by O-Sensei's death, the same thing occurred again, and it will continue as these leaders lose control of these hybrid art or systems. (Tomiki, Shioda, Tohei, etc.)

When Tokimune Takeda died, we had several of his senior students form their own organizations and at last count, at least eight Daito-Ryu based organizations now exist! You see! What you failed to address in your remarks to this letter was that there is no longer any real loyalty or honor in the martial arts practiced today, even in Japan!

Had the gentleman who awarded this Daito-Ryu rank to the above mentioned east coast instructor been Japanese (regardless of his actual ability or gradings) , there would be no issue to be discussed at all! However, the person was not a Japanese,
but an American, so, with the race issue as a part of the equation, the Westerner was demonized.

No effort to determine exactly what experience in Daito-Ryu was possessed by either of these gentlemen before attacking of them through your magazine. They weren't Japanese, and they weren't under Kondo or another Japanese head, so, they must be bogus?

You mention that many other Japanese instructors also jumped rank in an effort to defend Okamoto's rise from white belt to 7th dan in just 11 short years, yet, you failed to mention that the gentleman who awarded these questioned ranks has been training in the martial arts for over 55 years, many of these years under well-known Daito-Ryu teachers in Japan, including the very same one who awarded the 7th dan to Okamoto. Does 55 years of study by a Westerner not equal a mere 11-years of study by a Japanese?

And, no mention was made of just what experience in aiki was possessed by the one who received these ranks! No mention was made of his rankings in Shioda's system, or his other martial arts achievements, Did you even bother to check this out?

In summation: ranks today have absolutely no meaning whatsoever, They are a tool to maintain or create a power base and to generate cash, There is no universal standard for any rank issued today among the thousands of martial arts practiced worldwide, including those issued in aikido or Daito-ryu, so, I think you are making a big issue of this because one of your sources of income centers around the sales of tapes by Kondo Sensei and you are trying to portray him as the head of Daito-ryu, while trying to discredit Westerners who are doing exactly the same thing Kondo and the senior students of Tokimune are doing, which is to disrespect the wishes of Tokimune who passed his art over to his daughter and expected his senior students, Kondo included, to support her in her efforts to keep the original system intact,

Lastly, I don't expect you to have the courage to print this letter because it might cause your readers to question your motive in your coverage of Daito-Ryu.

Sensei Steven Williams Soke Dai
Saigo Ha Daito-Ryu Canada

I have to admit that Mr. Williams (affiliated with John J. Williams (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2561), another feared instructor) makes a good argument, though the logic is missing at some points.

There have been and will be split-offs in budo. In koryu, split offs were once encouraged after a student had achieved Menkyo Kaiden in a ryu-ha, which was surprisingly quick. Later, the ryu-ha turned into businesses, and ranks were issued more slowly and possession of the art by a single family/line became more common.

The difference between being considered a legitimate split-off and a fraudulent opportunist is based mainly on the level of initiation the student had, and the nature of their training in the art (casual or uchi-deshi, for example). Your colleagues will either accept you as an independent branch, or they will critisize you for exploiting the system. Mr. Denora has not offered his full rankings, or the details of his length of time on the mats with orthodox DR teachers. For example, Mr. Williams alludes that Mr. Denora trained with Horikawa Kodo. Is this true, and if so, how long did he study with him?

Also, someones previous experience or years of training really should not be considerations for ranking in other systems. To expect previous experience/ranks to be part of the ranking criteria for other arts is skewed.

**

Following is Stan Pranin's reply to Mr. Williams' letter:


In reply to Mr. Williams' letter, much could be written. I will attempt to address a few of the issues he raises here.

As to Mr. Williams points about the fragmentation of martial arts following the death of the founder, I certainly agree. In fact, in my editorial in AJ 114 I touch upon this issue. A word of clarification. Actually, in the case of both Sokaku Takeda and Morihei Ueshiba, the splitting off of students to create their own styles began during their lifetimes.

Mr. Williams' remarks concerning the demonization of the American instructor because of his nationality did, I must admit, catch me by surprise. I did not know race was an issue here. If it is an issue, who raised it? if you don't think we take exception with this type of fraudulent practice if the perpetrator happens to be Japanese, then you need to read my editorial in Aiki News #92 where I take to task a Japanese instructor who rep- resented himself as the headmaster of the Saigo-ha branch ofDaito-ryu, a school which never existed historically!

You assume I do not know about the martial arts background of the two gentlemen in question. Well, actually that is not strictly the case because the first wrote to me directly about his training background and also called
me several times. The second person I met about 15 years ago and I visited his home as well. This was at the time he was under a Japanese shihan. I saw him again last December. Therefore, it would be incorrect to say that I am unfamiliar with either person or their martial backgrounds.

As to the matter of "skipping" ranks, well, as I pointed out in the last issue of AJ, this occurred quite frequently in the early days of the Aikikai. Infact, my own teacher skipped two ranks. There is just one small difference between these situations and the one of the self-ordained headmaster mentioned in Mr. Harden's letter. In the case of the skipped ranks, the persons graded did not give themselves their ranks. The ranks came directly from Morihei Ueshiba.

The length of time a person has trained and their ranking may vary widely from school to school, each having their own grading system. Some favor being severe in giving out ranks to insure that the recipient pos- sess the requisite skills to maintain the standards of the style. Others rank rapidly taking the viewpoint that ranks serve as a form of encouragement and reward and are a good vehicle to disseminate the art on a wider scale. Often, monetary factors are an issue, too, as I pointed out in my last editorial.

I'm not sure where Mr. Williams' information about the wishes of Headmaster Tokimune Takeda concerning the succession of the art come from, but he seems to be under some false impressions. Allow me to elaborate. Tokimune Sensei's health began to deteriorate in the late I980s. This led eventually to his hospitalization where he was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease, although this was not made public at the time. As Tokimune Sensei was no longer capable of decision-making, his senior students, including Katsuyuki Kondo Sensei, met together in Abashiri in Hokkaido to discuss the issue of succession. The decision was made to ask Tokimune Sensei's younger daughter to assume the role of headmaster on a provisional basis. Tokimune Sensei was not part of this process due to his state of mental health as mentioned above.

This daughter was and is on very good terms with Katsuyuki Kondo Sensei. [ know this because [ have spoken to both directly on various occasions. As the Soke Dairi or "official representative of the Headmaster," Kondo Sensei was asked to oversee the technical operation of the Daito-ryu organization of Tokimune. This remained the situation when Tokimune Sensei died without the issue of succession being resolved.

Prior to Tokimune's death a group of his senior students broke off to form a separate group. Also, the younger brother of Tokimune, Munemitsu, unilaterally declared himself the headmaster while the headmaster lay hospitalized. Since then, to my knowledge, two more headmasters have appeared, one of them the husband of Tokimune Sensei's elder daughter. Kondo Sensei continues as the "Hombu-cho" of the remaining dojos of Tokimune Sensei's original organization with the support of his younger daughter. The circumstances during Tokimune's illness and following his death are very complex and I have only presented a thumbnail sketch in order to clarify the main issues.

I would like to add that I dislike writing about things with which I am not familiar. I would never have allowed the issues brought up in Mr. Harden's letter to appear in the pages of AJ had I not had a first-hand knowledge of the events in question. I made that point in my remarks after Mr. Harden's letter but it appears to have gone unnoticed,

Finally, Mr. Williams questions my personal integrity and alleges that my motives in printing Mr. Harden's letter together with my personal comments were financial in nature. Readers can draw their own conclusions on this issue. My work will be judged by all concerned on its own merits and I feel no particular need to offer a defense.

-[Editor]

[Nathan Scott]

And from Vol.26/ No.1:


Reply to Letter on Bogus Rankings

I read with curious amusement the letter posted in your last magazine by Mr. Williams. I found your response restrained and factual as usual. I would like to interject an experience I had concerning the gentleman in question.

A couple of years ago a student of mine approached me with a flyer promoting a seminar in New York. Being a relative beginner, he asked me if I thought he should attend this seminar. He had overheard me praise aikijujutsu as one of our senior instructors in Shindo Yoshin Kai Jujutsu is also a student of Yanagi Ryu and Don Angier.

I must say, bells and whistles went off in my head when I read the promotional flyer. Grandiose statements such as "Highest level aiki ever taught outside of Japan by a non- Japanese!" and "Founder of the Year 95" are in my mind immediate cause for suspicion but not necessarily dismissal. I decided to call the gentleman in question and ask him what qualifications he had to make such claims.

The gentleman who answered the telephone introduced himself as Soke (Headmaster). I explained that I was a Shindo Yoshin Ryu instructor under Yukiyoshi Takamura and that one of my students had received a flyer about a seminar at this location. The claims on the flyer seemed pretty grandiose so I was checking out these claims as I felt obligated to make sure that this seminar was on the level before I gave any student the okay to attend. The gentleman seized on that opening and explained that not only was he associated with the Daito-ryu Roppokai and Seigo Okamoto, but that Okamoto Sensei had personally authorized him to improve the Roppokai curriculum. Well, this was fascinating news! A hitherto unknown instructor in New York authorized to improve Roppokai techniques by its founder... (Who was this guy kidding!)

I casually mentioned that it was my understanding that Brently Keen, in Santa Cruz, California was the only Roppokai instructor presently teaching in the U.S. Boy, the backpeddaling started quickly. Well, it seems, that the letter from Okamoto Sensei hadn't actually arrived yet, but it was expected anyday! "Oh," I exclaimed, "so officially you are not presently associated with the Roppokai at all." "Well, no," he exclaimed, "But I will be any day now!" I continued to press him about why he tried to mislead me. He finally told me that it was "just marketing." I told him "that in Connecticut we called it lying." With that, the phone call mysteriously ended.

I forwarded information on this incident to Seigo Okamoto Sensei as I thought he should investigate this incident himself. Were I in his shoes I would certainly want to know about this serious misrepresentation involving his name and reputation. I believe a response was soon crafted in Japan by senior instructor Jose Lopez at Okamoto's request adn that this person no longer misleads people, well, at least as it pertains to hsi association with the Roppokai.

Now, I believe Mr. Williams in defending this gentleman, intended to accuse editor Stanley Pranin of misrepresenting the facts for the purpose of "marketing". Pardon me, Mr. Williams, but given my personal experience with this "Soke", I find that ironic and laughable to say the least!

David Maynard, Chief Instructor
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai

Interesting.

[Don Cunningham]

Now as to some of my recent conversations w/ a former student. According to this person, Mr. Denora apparently has a habit of badmouthing people to others, being very verbally abusive towards his students, and occasionally throws tantrums in class. The student seemed puzzled over his behavior, not bitter or angry with him--actually expressed concern and wondered if this was a personality flaw he couldn't help, or maybe something related to an organic health problem. . .who knows. Due to _my_ skepticism, actually sent
me a copy of a video of a seminar which Denora did that opens with him
basically telling the seminar participants how unworthy they were of his presence, and of Daito Ryu!
Sounds like Mr. Denora was just emulating his former instructor, Fredrick Lovret. Why do these guys always assume that physical and/or emotional abuse is part of budo? More importantly, why do their students and followers accept this type of behavior?

[glad2bhere]

Dear Don:

"....Sounds like Mr. Denora was just emulating his former instructor, Fredrick Lovret. Why do these guys always assume that physical and/or emotional abuse is part of budo? More importantly, why do their students and followers accept this type of behavior?...."

For the same reason that people will flock to a bad instructor with Oriental features before attending a class taught by a quality teacher with Occidental features.

For the same reason that some students don't feel like they are getting the "real deal" in their MA classes if they are not run like Basic Training.

For the same reason that some students figure if a teacher is soft, agreeable, and supportive he can't be anywhere NEAR as tough or competent as one who is loud, hard and distant.

For the same reason that folks will train their bodies but will not generalize the code or belief system to their behavior outside of the school in their dealing with the community.

Answer: For most people martial arts are really "martial theatre" with certain people playing certain roles, dressing particular ways and acting out their staging and lines. The idea that they are participating in a growth experience, albeit an anachronistic one, simply does not come into the picture. Deviate from their perception of how the martial theatre comes together and you have an empty school, and so, a failed commercial MA venture. Feeding the fantasies of ones' students may not be honest, but it tends to keep the cash flowing. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[MarkF]

http://www.bushido.org/~whfsc/qpic34.jpg

John Denora accepting his certificate in the World Head of Families Sokeship Council.

Mark

[Don Cunningham]

Good points all, Bruce.

For the same reason that people will flock to a bad instructor with Oriental features before attending a class taught by a quality teacher with Occidental features.
Sometimes it seems like the really bad instructors with with Occidental features try to cover their incompetency with fake Oriental features. Yep, I guess it is theater for some.

For the same reason that some students don't feel like they are getting the "real deal" in their MA classes if they are not run like Basic Training.
I've got nothing against hard physical training, but the boot camp mentality is all wrong. The Marines use this kind of boot camp treatment for completely different reasons, i.e., to build teams and leaders. This is not appropriate for martial arts training, though. Furthermore, most of those participating in this kind of martial arts boot camp mentality don't have the background or experience to do it properly in the first place. They are just emulating some image of how boot camp training should be from movies or something.

For the same reason that some students figure if a teacher is soft, agreeable, and supportive he can't be anywhere NEAR as tough or competent as one who is loud, hard and distant.
The toughest judo competitors I know were the gentlest people off the mat. Those with big mouths and a braggart's heart didn't seem to last very long. Maybe because sooner or later they ran into tougher competitors and their egos would not allow them to deal with the issue.


For the same reason that folks will train their bodies but will not generalize the code or belief system to their behavior outside of the school in their dealing with the community.
Right on the money!

[Jerry Johnson]

At this point this thread has got my intrest. But it is so coded and obscure it is hard to know what all the fuss is about. Now, has anyone trained with Mr. Denora? Has anyone one seen Mr. Denora do what he claims. Second of all, why is everyone getting worked up about him anyway. For some it is the Lovett song and dance and that is clear, for others what sticks in your craw about him. I have never hear of him until this thread, clearly some people are really worked up over him. I hope this isn't a self-rewarding witchhunt, rather ( which some posts demonstrate ) a clarification of credentials and deterimination of skill and background in a civil manner. On his webpage last time I looked there was no background info. so as far as I can see this is a matter of determining creditials,and not personal attacks because of some association with some unfavor instructor by some.

I think information should be presented, as it has per the magazine articles, that focuses or outlines creditials with out all this personal garabage ( so it is without noise) allowing the reader to determine the validity of this instructor.

Already we know people are pissing and flaming each other and jumping on the bandwagon, and who for some reason or the other personally dislike Mr. Denora.Clearly Mr. Denora is well versed in retaliation. But, I have not read nothing about his skill, or a clear unbias presentation of all the facts. Something as an unbais reader I would like to read rather then the personal doo do. Then allow Mr. Denora to dispute presented. In this way it is much more benefiticial to the reader.

How big is his dojo? How big is his organization? Is he commerical or not. What makes him such a threat to some. What is his background and connections. These things as others should be addressed and discussed.

Facts like rank are not personality flaws and is pertainent, right? Also people backing up their claims, rather then just frothing at the mouth. I mean if someone is a bassturd on or off the mat that is an abstract and complaining about it isn't of greater value. Determining if there is an infraction of fraud of public dojo based on presented facts that are supported is much better, than name calling.

Personally, I don't care if this person is a fraud or not. I care on in the manner it is handled. The world Soke or what ever it is organization speaks for its self. I am not in favor of it, yet if that is what people what to associate with fine.


When I did some web searching on Daito Ryu I didn't see Denora's name or read his involvment or association with Daito Ryu.com or .org, Roppokai, or the other one...I forgot but it starts with a Tak...? I searched Daito Ryu-USA ( his page appeared ), and Daito Ryu Bokuroku(?) his name didn't appear. This alone is enough to say something to me....am I the only one?

If this Mr. Denora's own style he is doing and this is his own thing then what is the beef? Why are people threatened? Also as another matter,If Mr. Denora is hijacking a style as his own then the facts must be presented. Finally, how important is Mr. Denora in the martial arts world to lose sleep over? It would be nice to read that other then the mudsling bangwagon parade that can happen here on E-Budo.

[Jerry Johnson]

Originally posted by Jerry Johnson
Finally, how important is Mr. Denora in the martial arts world to lose sleep over? It would be nice to read that other then the mudsling bangwagon parade that can happen here on E-Budo.

CLearly, I speak for myself in the quote above. I allways value substance in discussions over junk/enterntainment in threads like these.

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Johnson,

I appreciate your concern about the intent of this thread. This thread, like many here, were started some time ago by someone asking for information about him. Available information was offered, and in cases such as this, the information is not always positive. Mr. Denora has come on to, well, slam those that did not say positive things about him. In the interest of being fair, I've invited the people being discussed in threads like these to come offer their point of view on several occaisons. So this is not what I would consider a witch hunt.

Most of your questions have already been addressed in this thread, either explicitly or implicitly. Specific time in training and ranks earned is something that Mr. Denora has not offered, though.

This thread has been and still is fairly well tempered, though it is bordering on getting out of hand. There are a number of people who have written to me privately to offer their personal experiences, which are valuable, but as I said before - opinions about skill level are only opinions.

It may not be of concern to you, but fraudulent (or irresponsible) behavior - based on lack of orthodox instruction/credentials (lineage issues) - is of concern to us.

Mr. Denora's name is well known in AJJ circles, so it was a matter of time before some of this information made it to the net. As you noticed though, he does appear to be operating independently.

Look around this forum and you will find a number of people being discussed who are fraudulently using the Daito ryu name. It is a popular name (big money maker for some), so everybody wants to get some, but do not want to earn it the hard way. The ones that have earned the name you will rarely hear about on the net, because they are apparently far less interesting to discuss(!). Go internet.

Regards,

[Jerry Johnson]

I agree with your first paragraph whole heartedly. The only thing I don't agree with is I feel some of what was presented in the articles are code and obsure. This has nothing to do with you posting it. I am not into Daito Ryu to know the history and background on Denora. I was hoping there would be some claification on the obscure portions of the article. This is minor point.

I feel the discuss for being an E-Budo one is handle well. I just was voicing my concern with my witchhunt comment, as some posters who for sport tend to hijack the thread turning it in a witch hunt. Filling the thread with trash/ piss fighting posts. The thread like I said is pretty good interms of being unbias, fair and objective then most. In this way it is more of a service for people to make a determination. This thread lacks, trolls, bulling or gang-bang flaming posts by posters who have no connection to the subject having nothing better to do than gang up on someone for sport. Or someone who singles out per se Denora thrashes him for the sake of keeping a high profile. The thread has kept its tact for the most part.

The articles as coded as they are indicates that someone has intelligence enough to present them in this thread as support to refute . This isn't typical in my opinion when someone is caught in the adolecence crosshairs of E-Budo flamers.


It may not be of concern to you, but fraudulent (or irresponsible) behavior - based on lack of orthodox instruction/credentials (lineage issues) - is of concern to us.

It is a concern despite what some hack posters believe. Equal in concern is how it is handled. I feel it should be done intelligently, fairly, and maturely. I don't feel vitual lynching and gang/mob mentality is any way to handle such matters important manners.


Look around this forum and you will find a number of people being discussed who are fraudulently using the Daito ryu name. It is a popular name (big money maker for some), so everybody wants to get some, but do not want to earn it the hard way. The ones that have earned the name you will rarely hear about on the net, because they are apparently far less interesting to discuss(!). Go internet.

I see your point and agree. There are people who will give an art a bad reputation if allowed too. I agree with those who earn and those who don't. Those who don't just want a free ride of the sweat and tears of those who earned it. People should be aware of such people getting a free ride, but in a way that doesn't reflect back on the art. It should be done responsibily. Do you agree?

I also think if someone like Denora ( who is questioned ) should feel they can refute what is claimed against them. Often I want to here the other guy's side of the story. I get nothing from him being flamed by a buch of immature posters as seen in other threads.

Mr. Denora isn't a concern to me because I don't travel in those circle. I want to know how important he is, the size of this student body, how much influence does he have in the circles he runs in. I would like to hear what he has to say as much as those who make claims against him. Reason being for the same reason you pick a doctor, contractor, repairman, laywer, etc. I want to know who is the best. All this is part of understanding and appreciating other arts.

At this point I am waiting for Mr. Denora to respond. At this time I don't want to present my opinion in public nor do I feel any need to bash Mr. Denora. But, like I said before, I do have a concern with the organization of Sokeship. If he isn't what he says he is and it is proven by fact and not gossip or hearsay, then such indiviuals should be exposed.

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Johnson,

I agree completely with your last post.

Off to shed some sweat and tears (mostly raw feet, actually),

[kenkyusha]

Originally posted by Jerry Johnson
<snip>
I want to know how important he is, the size of this student body, how much influence does he have in the circles he runs in. <snip>
Unsolicited opinion to follow:

If it's one person, it's too many. To have these folks running around claiming an art with which they have no legitimate connection, promoting others in it (based on flawed or missing transmission from dubious sources) is self-perpetuating.

To misquote, "Do what you say, say what you do, and call what you do what it is."

Be well,
Jigme

[BC]

Originally posted by MarkF
http://www.bushido.org/~whfsc/qpic34.jpg

John Denora accepting his certificate in the World Head of Families Sokeship Council.

Mark
Who can possibly question the legitimacy of his rank when he is in the company of such distinguished martial artists! :p

[john denora]

Dear Mr.Jerry Johnson,Mark F., Robert Cronin:
Whatever the posters wish to say about me is fine to a point,unless they cross the line of Defamation. I defend their right to say it,if it is true. And the readers have a right to judge me for themselves. In some respects the criticisms waged against me are correct. At times I have the personality of an old saw blade.
Mr. Lake does have in part a justifiable gripe, but he knows why he is unjustifiably interfering with me on another point which is unfair as to our dojo on this public network and his conduct on this narrow issue is near the edge of a civil libel and slander lawsuit in California.
I have a public image so I am fair game. But why is Mr. Lake so much to reaped against me? He had a gripe which was not fair as to someone.
My suggestion is ask--who benefits from all the trollings,inuendos, misinformation etc thrown at me in the forum by some at times of mud-slinging.
Say to yourself "Cui Bono"--who benefits? This is latin meaning "Follow the money." as the saying goes.
Also ask what martial art or sport does the poster do and his/her rank backround and credentials and books etc written ,and medals etc.
It does ,in part, get to me where most of the readers have been told I give out bogus ranks.This is not true. Part of this is pure gripes and other ways to send out gossip and venom.
Our Judo ranks come from Nationally Recognized Judo Organizations and are paid for by our students. Judo is not a free lunch. It is very expensive in uniforms, health,finess, blood ,sweat ,and injuries. Even as the examiner I recommend rank. The yudanshkai votes on it from the recommendation of the promotion committee and the record is clear from the SHIAI book and the computer for the wins and loses in competition Shiai or Kata etc.
The JuJutsu ranks come from recognized organizations with testing requirements such as the American JuJittsu Association of which my dojo is a member.Our dojo,Nichijo Kore Dojo, is a member of JuJitsu America. It has prestigious members such as Professors Willy Cahill, Wally Jay, Eric Remer etc. Our dojo is a member and I am a life member.
I am a full life Professor of the American Judo and JuJisu Fedearation (AJJF) for many years. We have in the past been awarded the AJJF's largest dojo award and also the Tomdachi award. The quality of my martial art skills may not meet the rigid standards of some of the posters, but so be it.Complain to these associations or get in the kitchen to feel the heat. These are operative facts ascertainable on internet or they can write or call the organizations.
There are over 12 competing Daito Ryu organizations in Japan. Two groups have been in constant disharmony with each other for politics and money and power--such as stealing students etc. One DR Budo organization has issued a lot of Daito Ryu tapes, bookd , papers,--there are over 100 tapes you can get for $50 to $100. There are some excellent tapes by Saigo School and the Takeda school in Hokkaido which put the DR Budo tapes to shame. This flavor is different because Sokaku Takeda did not always teach the same.DR Budo of Tokyo and sold through Aiki News on internet also charge exhorbitant fees.Japan is very expensive. You ordinarily can usually stay there 90 days. About one third of the people in Japan IAW a survey do not want visitors or tourists. But true (Honto) Daito Ryu is really based on principles.Our teachers teach on the basis of at least 50 principles.See Canada Saigo Ha Daito Ryu Web site which is recognized in Japan, USA and Internationally.This fine group has over 100 principles.Many Kyoju Dairi. Canada has the most Dr in the world.There is also a DR Koryu School in Cuba.If it is Koryu it will have principles and transference.
My JuJitsu ranks are recognized in Japan, USA and Internationally by Associations. Once Okuden requirements are met rank gets sticky. I am appointed for life as Kyoju Dairi by the late Katsumi Yonezawa. I can never become Menkyo Kaiden. This is the full transmission I do not have the full transmission nor can I afford it. Also I am a Gaijin(America). The Japanese would never and I do not blame them give full transmission to me.Also I am not worthy for full transmission nor do I want the responsibility or burdens in spite of the benefits. My ego for one is not that big.
I am 73 years old and the bones feel the dampness.
I own a dogo so I am the teacher and coach and am NOT profit oriented depending on the sport or art taught. We teach Daito Ryu as a Koryu not as budo, because I love to teach.It is my students that count--but if I lose one or more students because of the libels caused by posters and not controled by the owner or moderato E-Budo may have to give me a retraxction or face a Federal Lawsuit for slander regarduing reputation--At this time I am not litigatious minded because I anm going air my view,for I have been silent. This thread against me by two of the others and not Mr. Johnson nor Mark F.nor Mr.Cronin is not right in terms of common decency and a Juudge will see that.. You three posters I see are reasonable men and most perceptive. The others better stop or accept the consequences Each vicious libellous post is helping my cause.They should see what Bob Cunningham got in court from a Defendant.
Katsuyuki Kondo and his associate business partner Stanley Pranin teach DR as a Budo and to make big money to have those big dojo etc and demonstrations in Las Vegas.The fees are at least $200 and what do the participants get. A chance to purchase Videos and DVD's most of these public Dr techniues a green belt in Judo can do. They are in it in the USA to make money. This year there was a 50% attendence drop from what I was told. Also a lady selling competing DR tapes et was asked to remove them from the table. A friend of mine boughta set and the tapes were better than the Kondo stuff. Soon the Las Vegas IRS will get the hang of it and see how the sparks fly.
As to Bob Cunningham he is telling the truth I must say I have not met his high expectations and on that film I did have a melt down for a certain reason and this is not an excuse, I apologize to him and his students.Mr. Cunningham's techniques are superb and better than mine. Congratulations on your law suit.
My students advise me that one of the posters has defaimed me using a nom de plum or fake name to keep his identity and I know why? This is unfair.
I present to any good person an opportunity to join Daito Ryu USA --that has a purpose to disseminate DR. There are no fees.A membership card is given no strings attached. In the 90's there was a news letter that went to members as a labor of love but we could not afford it--so we cancelled after 2 years.One of my loyal students even egged some of this on without my knowledge just to ferret out some snobs and egotists and gossipers and maligners who like to go on witch hunts. Now, I am no longer fair game on this website and I shall see what can be done especially after I saw what Bob Cunningham did in court as to someone who was harrassing him in public etc. I see the big picture and will not turn my cheek no longer.
Please pardon me if I appeared to be bragging. This was not my intent. Also to each poster I am sorry and wish to make a public apology. Also my misspellings are due to my haste etc. I am sorry.
Kindest personal regards.
John Denora,
Nichijo Kore Dojo of Judo and JuJutsu
:)

[glad2bhere]

Dear Don:

Just a quick "congratulations" for your success legal battle. I had an opportunity to vist the website and while I must tell you honestly that I do not follow everything completely I have some passing familiarity with the person in question and his "art" and only wish that some comparable "come-uppence" might be meted out to the many misrepresentations that plague the Korean MA. Good going, and my deepest respect for staying the course to its end. FWIW.

Dear John:

Perhaps I am no one to speak to the matters at hand. I am a practitioner of Korean traditions and am something of a dunce regarding things Japanese. I can comment only as one whose lifes' work is to teach and do so in a variety of venues. I must share with you, though, that the most valuable asset a teacher has is their station as an unquestioned source of Truth. My experience is that beyond papers, certs, photographes, rankings and affiliations the single greatest validation for such a post is their own inviolate Integrity. Observing what has been said on this string thus far, and speaking as one who has no investment in these issues one way or another, I must say that the frquency with which you find yourself in various areas of suspicion might well give you pause to consider the manner in which you have chosen to conduct your affairs. Individuals reading this string could well be forgiven for shying away from you solely on the basis of what might argueably be poor choices in management.

If you have truthes you believe are valuable to share with the next generation, well and good. My view is that you might want to reconsider the manner in which you are doing it. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[john denora]

Dear Bruce W. Sims:
Thank you for your thougtfullness and sound advice.
Please contact me at daitoryuaiki@hotmail.com
I welcome your input and sincere suggestions.
John Denora,
Nichijo Kore Dojo

[Brian Griffin]

Originally posted by john denora
I am a full life Professor of the American Judo and JuJisu Fedearation (AJJF) for many years. We have in the past been awarded the AJJF's largest dojo award and also the Tomdachi award.I feel I must clarify something here.

Mr. Denora is not, and has never been, a Professor of the AJJF.

That rank is only awarded after many years of dedication to Danzan Ryu. Mr. Denora has never studied DZR to any appreciable extent, although he has sometimes attended or participated in events where DZR instructors taught or demonstrated the art.

Some years ago, the AJJF instituted an "outreach" program in an attempt to propagate DZR by recruiting isolated or unaffiliated dojo and offering them group insurance and an opportunity to study DZR under traveling clinicians (usually AJJF Professors). The program seems to have been quite successful, and has attracted a number of schools in Europe, South & Central America, and the Middle-East who now practice DZR. These groups are called Allied Schools, and their pre-existing ranks are registered initially with the AJJF as Allied Ranks (assuming they present acceptable documentation). As their DZR instruction progresses, they are eligible to test for regular AJJF rank if they choose.

An Allied Rank certificate cites the name of the organization that granted the rank--it does not suggest that the pre-existing rank was in any way awarded by the AJJF.

Some years ago, Mr. Denora's club joined the AJJF as an Allied School. He has so far not pursued the opportunity to study Danzan Ryu, and his participation in the AJJF has mainly been limited to occasional attendance at seminars and conventions. He was also kind enough to allow Professor Hudson the use of his school facilities for the AJJF Massage Program at one time.

I've never heard of the "Tomodachi Award" in the AJJF, but I've only been a member for a couple of decades.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

For one, thanks for that clarification. That must have been a bit painful for you to find yourself writing. I, for my part, am going to bow-out of this discussion as we have WAY too much of this stuff in the Hapkido arts as it is and this is just a bit too painful for me to witness. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Chris Li]

Originally posted by john denora
I can never become Menkyo Kaiden. This is the full transmission I do not have the full transmission nor can I afford it. Also I am a Gaijin(America). The Japanese would never and I do not blame them give full transmission to me.

It's neither here nor there, but I can think of at least three non-Japanese off of the top of my head that have received menkyo kaiden in various arts - I'm sure that there are others.

I'll leave the other stuff to somebody else :).

Best,

Chris

[Nathan Scott]

To all,

I'd be interested to know if there is someone using a fake name on this board. We have an "honor system" policy of using your real name here, for reasons of accountability. If someone would care to forward information about this, or come clean, I'd appreciate it. BTW, coming clean will likely produce better results than waiting to get busted by someone else.

FWIW, I don't see anything legally objectionable in this thread. If you want to get offended or defamed, go to most of the other internet sites that do not try as hard to maintain mature contributions. Sue the whole internet. This subject is controversial by way of the information being presented, but little has been said about the character of Mr. Denora, and what has been said have been opinions based on either personal experience or on what has been posted here, which Mr. Denora has not specifically noted (or supplied supporting evidence) as being incorrect.

I tell you what though. Martial arts sure is different these days. Modern martial arts should include litigation-dori to their curriculum. Most people train casually as a hobby these days anyway, and when called out for behavior and judgement issues, lawsuits are the weapon of choise. No need to answer hard questions or produce supporting data to your claims. Interesting "hobby" for some, but not for me.

I would remind ya'll to try to keep your posts appropriate though, in light of the intriguing posts of late.

Regards,

[john denora]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris Li
[B]It's neither here nor there, but I can think of at least three non-Japanese off of the top of my head that have received menkyo kaiden in various arts - I'm sure that there are others.
---------------
Dear Mr.Chris Li:
Thank you for your gracious input off the top of your head as to the number of Menkyo Kaiden given to persons outside of Japan. I do not wish to be argumentative or rude. If I sound so please forgive me Mr. Chris Li.
There are as you correctly say ,in part,some Menkyo Kaiden in such arts as sword and maybe in Hakko Ryu etc in the USA --including perhaps Hawaii. I do not know their names.If you do please let me know.
It is my impression there may be a Daito School-- Menkyo Kaiden in Canada. I do not think he is an American. There is one American who someday may get the full transmission from a Japanese Daito School, but it is not me.
I stand corrected. I am terribly sorry. It was my mistake and not intentioned to mislead in any way.I should have said: "I will never become a Menkyo Kaiden, that is,full transmission in any Daito School from Japan because I am not worthy."
The reason is I do not want to be nailed down with more rank nor full transmision such as Menkyo Kaiden from a Japanes Daito School.
I no longer wish to be affiliated with any Japanese Daito School at this time and since my teacher Kasumi Yonezawa died.My teacher Kasumi Yonezawa was the first to cause his Daito School to flourish in the USA after Daito had dwindled in the USA after 1900. I am content to teach Daito the way Katsumi Yonezawa Sensei taught me since 1979 until his death based on principles and according to the three Horikawa Kodo Confidential books of instuction and techniques he taught and transmitted to me.
Best,
John Denora

Dear Brian Griffth:
It hurts me to say this.
AJJF supposedly promotes Danzan Ryu and Okazaki Massage (150 hours) that encorporates physical and mental training with a philosophy toward perfection of character.
No! I will not seek or test for any rank in the Danzan Ryu style of AJJF.I am fed up with a few back stabbers in AJJF who are infatuated with their ego trips. One of whom posted miss-information on this post about me and a lie and has been for 15 years+ a trouble maker at Danzan Ryu camps.One of these persons is YOU.At one of the six annual summer,week-end Danzan Ryu Camps a few years ago for--Camp Kakua in Los Angeles CA--a real Danzan Ryu Camp at which Sensei Mike Dingman sponsored and present was Prof. Manley Fox --one of the finest and other Danzan Ryu pratitioners and others. You , Brian Griffith, embarrassed some of my students. They said you were a AJJF know-it-all and now I believe them. Some and myself found you to be obnoxious and an officious intermeddler.. But I remained polite to you in spite of all your haughty comments.
Therafter,I still continued to support AJJF because of Mr. Bob Hudson and other AJJF teachers such as Mr. Ball who is a fine brother--.
I assisted Professors Hudson and Ball and another to the use my facilities.In more places than one.We were presented the largest Dojo award in the form of a plaque on behalf of AJJF to me and my sudents.You were not there. Mr. Hudson,and others were there.It was given on a date after I freely allowed AJJF the FREE use of our Dojo.
AJJF used my Dojo every Tuesday and Thursday nights and all week-ends --totalling more than 150 hours for the Okazaki Certificate Program. I attended every session, even when I was injured. I did not accept one penny nor did AJJF offer a dime.My dojo mats were also used for training by AJJF students.Nor did or do I want an Okazaki Massage Certificate. You were not there.So you are speaking pure unaduterated hearsay, ***Last night I took the AJJF awards down*** because of your nonsense on this Net.You are an representative agent of AJJF --for you malicious post hereon AJJF needs to apologize to me. Are you the official spokesman for AJJF? If so you are biased and a liar. I may photo it, wrap it up and send it back to AJJF Headquarters explaining in detail your connivances.. My Lifetime Professor Card from AJJF edged in black says it all. Not your mouth and forked tongue.You should be reprimanded or prosecuted by AJJF and ousted according to their Constitution and By-laws.As a non-profit organization you have breached the spirit of the law.See your AJJF Handbook.
There are many Danzan Ryu practitioners and schools not affiliated with AJJF.
It hurts me to say this.
I am a full Professor AFFILIATED in AJJF just as you claimed. You do not know what Danzan Ryu I know or do not know.Thrashing me will not get you the high profile you desire. Because of you,et.al.,my students do not want AJJF Danzan Ryu rank and have voted not to remain in AJJF. Because of you AJJF will no longer make a profit off of our Dojo or our students.Instead they have elected and opted for other Danzan Ryu organizations that at least have teachers of character and integrity. Some of which are of the original Danzan Ryu before--the AJJF was ever formed --These are under the able leadership of fine Professors. I was in Hawaii three years with the US Marine Corps and know true Danzan Ryu and the Danzan Ryu history and what happened at and after the death of Okazaki Sensei on the Waikiki Beach before you were in Danzan Ryu.
Prof. Wally Jay, a man of absolute integrity- I would believe before I would believe you.
Now go dig up more innuendos and untruths and also get your higher officials of AJJF to malign me.
You think you do but you know little of my abilities or skills in Daito.
Nor does it matter to me or to anyone except those entitled to know.My credentials need not be aired by you because AJJF is the custodian therof.
If viewers want to see my credentials they can write to AJJF.
Enjoy the Santa Barbara fresh air but please get your operative facts straight.Your cronies alredy are starting to pop up to incite more junk.
If a potential student wants to study JuJitsu --fine . We will not feed their fancies in any way to injure them or take their hard earned money. We look for a few good people who are honest with integrity that do not bash others like you do and did and I am told you still do.
Cheers,
John Denora

To all viewers:
WEB SITE--My web site did not meet the expectations of a few viewers. The site was not to my liking either. The web master put in flash,put in things backwards, tough to load etc All the criticisms were true.The web master was a benevolent dictator -and I had to take it in stride and not offend him. So I cancelled the site.
I do not think it was in competition with anyone other than some egotistical snobs who knew how to criticize. I felt it was gaudy and it did make for bad bashings.
Japan told me it was in bad taste because it was in my name, so I finally accepted the loss and stopped the site.I must say all the critics had the same criticisms I had. The only thing that was nice was the music in my opinion and in the view of some others.
It has been very painful for me to air out the linen of Daito Ryu.
Hapkido has by far less problems than Daito Ryu. Most Daito persons have remined silent for fear of repercussions from Japan.
I am no longer nailed down to Japan. My teacher--Kasumi Yonezawa is dead. Only he knows what waza he taught me.Most of my students who started with me and who knew how to speak and read Japanese are doing very well in their Daito Schools and niches. I am proud of them all.I pray they do well in Japan and here. May their dojo flourish. I
only want that Daito shall not die and it be disseminated in the USA and the world as my teacher wanted it to be. My teacher made enemies and I know who they are. Some maligned him also with lies. I pray for them also.Most of the maligners and their teachers who allowed it have surfaced that started the witch hunt.
PROMOTIONS-- I can promote in the Daito School because I have my techer's authorization on paper and on wood.Yes it was expensive--in many ways.
When I get calls to learn Daito Ryu I try to accomodate the callers. Most callers I refer to other Daito Schools in the USA or Japan or Canada because they do not have the time , money or where with all to go to Japan.
My students in a republican and democratic atmosphere at our dojo and our meetings are free to speak and voice their opinion.We also vote on all internal and external matters without fear or retribution.We are not authoritative and have no need to get rich. We try not to be an officious boot camp DI to the dojo students. It is not a boot camp.It is a place of training that starts with etiquette and ends with etiquette.
We have only of a small dojo. If you want to flake it or me, be ready if it is of your own free will and acord..

In the past I was at times in our dojo and in seminars too pain giving.NO MORE.
I am terribly sorry and regret anything I may have done to offend anyone on this net,except those that lied and do not know the protocal of promotions and rank. They got so flustered over a valid promotion and Mr. Williams told it as it really is. See his very erudite post.The person promoted was tested and had many years of experience in Japanese JuJitsu before he came to America. His aiki and Aikido skills were superb. Several posts castigating this gentleman's promotion come from an alcoholic who causes trouble if he can. The person promoted had been under consideration to establish a Daito school in NYC, but smoke screens were raised by three competing Daito Schools in the big apple area against him.It worked he was ousted and refused entrance to public Japanese Daito Seminars.
He was given a tested promotion.He passed a full day's rigourous testing. He offended three Japanese sensei and several Americans but he was able and fitted for the promotion. One of the Japanese Sensei himself had been skipped promoted in the past.Also, Mr. Stanley Pranin made a fuss.
Mr. Pranin in the early days had been at our house. He planned at that time to make money off of Daito Ryu. He told me so at our house with his Japanese girlfriend. He went to see my teacher Katsumi Yonezawa under the guize to do a life story. My teacher saw right off the bat what the scheme was. My teacher would have nothing to do with it other than answer questions for the article written about my teacher in Aikido Journal. The article was a miss not well done. Then the Pranin gang started its quest for control.OSensei Ueshiba had died--the Aikido tape, Aikido Journal and translation business was dwindling . So he got on the coat tails of Sensei Katsuyuki Kondo.Pranin is and always will be a book and tape seller and I now know him well. He is high ranked in Aikido but just look on Daito Ryu tapes (First Friendship Daito Demo--Tokyo)and see how he does Ukemi worse than a yellow belt. This demo he sponsored and was the jump off point for him. It is because of Tokimune Takeda's Alzheimer Disease that the Pranin gang struck to control Daito Ryu. They have lost control and feared me. I was the wrong one to fear. It has escalated from the fact that true Daito Ryu is easy to learn if you know Judo or JuJitsu or Aikido.Go to a Las Vegas Daito school seminar and see for yourself.. Also there are now about 100 tapes and many books --mostly Pranins which are not the best. Any Kinokuniya Books Sales person will tell about them and are mostly in Japanese. VEY EXOENSIVE.
Truly search the history of aikido and seek the true answer why OSensei Ueshiba ran away from Daito Ryu School.Daito Ryu has more intrigues than Hapkido.It has been so for many years. It is guarded like a National Treasure.
OSensei's excuse to run away was his father died and he had to go to the funeral. Never to return to Daito Ryu. It was because of such petty arguments ,egos, intercine warfare at Osaka and at Hokkaido and money for each technique etc etc Techniques are not as big a secret as the Tokyo School of Daito would lead you to believe.Okamoto Sensei has proven how the system works. The esoteric ideation is to fool the public, keep it a National Treasure and "nail everybody down" under one person.It worked for a while,but no more. Daito Schools are a dime a dozen just like Mac Donalds but no longer a monopoly. The monopoly has been broken my friends. See for yourselves,even if you are told do not believe Mr. Denora.I am not rich but I am now well known --for good or bad or worse. Soon I will pass away and Daito Schools will still be able to do their thing now in the US.
I will no longer stand by and be hunted down like a witch or should I say warlock on this so-called Budo board.
I have put my faith and trust in God, my country,my family,and my loyal students. I am proud of those students who remained with me. Those that left I wish them the best.
Happy Thanksgiving,
John Denora.

[Brian Griffin]

Originally posted by john denora
I will not seek or test for any rank in the Danzan Ryu style of AJJF.

I...allowed AJJF the FREE use of our Dojo...for the Okazaki Certificate Program.

I am a full Professor AFFILIATED in AJJF just as you claimed.Thank you for clarifying that.

There seems to have been something about my post that you object to, but I can't tell what it is since you agree that my assertion is true. The certificate you received as part of the Allied School program recognizes your rank as Professor of Daito Ryu, based on whatever rank documentation you provided. The AJJF did not promote you to that rank. That was my point.

I don't recall your students at Camp Kokua, but it is not my habit or intent to cause people public embarrassment. To the extent that whatever I did may have been wrong or impolite, I certainly apologize.

On the other hand, a little embarrassment can sometimes be a good thing. Some people fall into the trap of pretending to be something they aren't, or to know something they don't. A sense of embarrassment might be the beginning step toward facing reality and dropping the pretense. In that sense, it's a hopeful sign.

I'm sorry your students felt embarrassed, but I'm happy they're still capable of feeling that emotion, for it signifies that they still possess a functioning sense of shame.

Not everyone is so lucky.

[john denora]

Dear Mr. Brian P. Griffith:
In all due respect I do not personally find FAULT in you as a person.
It seemed to me you distorted several things.I felt betrayed by a fellow member of AJJF making some complaint to impinge on me with petty piques and innuendos. I felt like an outcast without any rights and privileges in our AJJF.All these years in your humble eyes I was a second class member. Is that what allied means? AJJF should be allied to our Daito School. At least our Daito USA schools would not caste stones on a allied member unless it was aired properly. It felt me pain to respond. -- Now I understand.
I and others have found inherent faults in me and some of my past doings--I am not that rightious a man and I must reconcile or bear these past faults till I die.
My enemy is my own ANGER and PET PEEVES. So,I am training and practicing diligently on my ANGER MANAGEMENT to irradicate these faults in a Christian WAY.
For a more detailed clarification I did receive a CERTIFICATE as you succinctly stated. But,I also got years ago a LIFE MEMBERSHP card from AJJF encircled in black print etc.Do you know when these were issued to me? Speciffically,these do allude to me as you say Professor of a USA Daito School--ALLIED.I am no longer a Professor nor Sensei of a Japanese Daito School.I do not now teach the Japanese Way. My teaching follows the principles and items of the catalogs that Kasumi Yonezawa taught me.The nomenclature is Japanese just like in Judo and Danzan. The JuJitsu is taught his WAY and my WAY specifically to the best of my ability.The spirit is Daito Koryu not Gendai like the Danzan schools.The Aiki is taught according to his 50 principles as taught me and the AIKI -no -Jutsu is DONE my way and each student is free to do AIKI- no- Jutsu his/her WAY. Further, the AikiJuJitsu ranks issued to my students were under my USA Daito Aiki JuJitsu status and the agency status granted me as having been granted to me by Yonezawasan .Certain Judo and Jujitsu ranks are issued to my students by Nationally Approved organizations.My students are examined and tested under the rules of our organization and/or a Nationally Approved Judo or JuJitsu organization or a JuJitsu branch of a Nationally Approved Judo organization. A few have Judo rank from the US Judo Federation or the Kodokan Institute, Tokyo ,Japan.
Your American Judo and Jujitsu Federation (AJJF)to which I (me)am an allied member is not I believe ,in truth and fact, a Nationally Approved Judo organization. So we did not test through AJJF.If your organization is approved by the National Governing Board or a US Board approved under Congressional law-in Judo(US Statutes-Congress) or other JuJitsu National Board please send me or publish the approval letter/document.
By implication we want to make sure the readers of this post get the true state of facts and your oficial status and not mere fly by night opinions from which you assert.Are you an official officer of AJJF authorized to state the things you posted in public about me. I know as a public figure you are not invading my privacy,but I really fail to see why you jumped in. If it was to clarify these things fine. My Daito USA school since 1996 has been a continuous member of National Sport Judo and its JuJitsu Branch. This National Organization ,NSJ,has many Dojo/Clubs with prominant members of the Judo and JuJitsu community on the Board of Directors. It has examiner rules and regulations and enters Sanctioned Events.My dojo members follow these rules to maintain our integrity It comes under the National Governing Board for all approved sanctioned events etc.
AJJF does not ,and correct me ,if I am wrong have sanctioned events from NJB or another National Judo or JuJitsu Organization. In my prior post I did not allude to the solo status of AJJF which is only one Danzan Ryu organization. AJJF is only a non-profit corporation for itself as shown on Internet www.ajjf.com and as you said with out reach programs to expand AJJF's territory and other purposes. None of your AJJF events are National Approved sanctioned events in Judo or Jujitsu.Nor are the ranks given by a Nationally Approved organization. Your AJJF is TOTALLY independent.
I have for a long time done and studied the curriculum of techniques of Danzan Ryu which is a combination system with techniques from different sources such as Yoshin Ryu etc and whatever Okazaki Sensei wanted to put in the catalog of techniques such as revival etc. Some of the Scroll revivals are totally wrong and could be hazardous. Our organization requires the CPR and First Course approved by the Red Cross etc.for all Shodan and Coaches with renewal every 2 years. Since 1958 when I was with the US Marines in Kaneohe Bay, Oahu, Hawaii I started have done the Catalog of Danzan Ryu with senior Danzan persons of Danzan Ryu.Any Shodan/Nidan of Judo or Brazilian JuJitsu or Daito Ryu, Miyama Ryu and of any other well founded school worth his salt could do any Waza of the Danzan School.My three best fighters could do any of the Danzan techniques and pretzels to boot.We invite anyone who signs a waiver to get on the mats with us who seeks to learn or workout with us.We enter Judo and JuJitsu tournaments. I for one can no longer compete. I have seen my day. So I coach to the best of my ability when I am not in pain.
Relative to the Okazaki Massage Program of AJJF one needs special training ,but the way it is taught it has flaws.I know for a fact for I was a percipient witness of the massage classes taught on my site under the purview of Mr. Bob Hudson in the 90's at my Nichijo Kore Dojo then on "K" Street San Diego,CA. A graduate therof still needs to take a governmental licensing test and be licensed under the appropriate law in California at least and some other jurisdictions have similar massage laws.This is a police function of the locality for obvious reasons.
Thank you.


Gassho,
John Denora
Nichijo Kore Dojo

[Mike B. Johnson]

Mr Denora,

I guess I have struggled through this painful tome out of some bizarre sense of masochism. Frankly I have not read such a conglomeration of befuddlement to date on e-budo, although others including Beetlejuice have made valiant attempts.

The following is priceless:

** My enemy is my own ANGER and PET PEEVES. So,I am training and practicing diligently on my ANGER MANAGEMENT to irradicate these faults in a Christian WAY. **

I must confess to being concerned that your version of eradicating your faults in a "Christian Way" might include somthing akin to a burning Mr Nathan Scott on a spit.

And I'm truely sorry but the mental image of you hitting those caps on the keyboard almost sent me to the floor in laughter.

So Mr Denora, take a valium or something. You have demonstrated for us all what the study of Daito ryu under Yonezawa has done for your psyche. Have you considered taking up the study of yoga?

BJ

[john denora]

Dear Mike B. Johnson:
Thank you for your sage advice.I am not finding that much fault with him.
He has been most objective. Also thanks a million Mike for the YOGA tip I could certainly use a good Yoga teacher.This teacher might help me loosen up.
Japanese Daito Schools almost killed me and now Judo is making my knees do double takes. You are 100% correct Yoga would be great. I will hit the yellow pages and give it a shot.Yoga would certainly help anger management and those pet peeves etc.better than booze or valium.
I am so happy you had a good laugh.
Did you know Katsumi Yonezawa Sensei? If you think Yonezawa had that much impact on my psyche,you should get on the mats in the Daito School of Ken Kiyamasan of San Luis Obispo,CA or with Sensei Roy Golberg of NYC for one or more days or evenings and see what those two grass cutters will do to your psyche and your physical pain will be excruciating whenever you grab them.Be sure to tap out fast and loud before you get a concussion.Also, practise up on your Ukemi well before. If they are too soft for you try Obatsan. I guarantee they would be most sado-masochistic on your funny side, hide,skin,bones and brain.I still have not recovered from the pain Kiyama and Goldberg imposed on me in yesteryears. Get yourself some pain killers before you get on the mats with these two Daito School dudes.
Did you know there are some statistics,I do not know how reliable they are,that say one out of every four people have a mental illness?
Do you have three friends that are sane? I'm only kidding. Just a little.
I do not intend to burn him at the stake nor at the spit.He is a nice guy.So,you are a nice guy too.I can tell.Your mental image of me hitting the ivories on my antiquated keyboard struck me also as being worth a good belly laugh too.
If you could see a video of me doing the two finger "hunt and peck" on this old decrepit computer you would probably roll over dead from laughter.Notice the multitude of typos and errors.There should be a book on the "Zen Way of Typing".But it should be spelled with a small z.
Oh well surely have a keen sense of humor.
By the way who is beetle juice any way? I am a new comer to E-Budo. TIME OUT.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving.
Thanks.
Gassho,
John Denora

[chrismoses]

God I'm glad I train on the West Coast...

And that's all I'm going to say.

Happy Turkey Day everybody.

[john denora]

Mike B.J.:
Kindly visit the web page below:
www.stevesstudio.net
Seeee-Does it look familiar?
I am still giggling from your last post.
Happy Turkey Day.
Cheers.
Gassho,

[Nathan Scott]

The only way anyone is getting me "on a spit" is going to be after a few bottles of Sake (and bring a big spit).;)

This has been a truly fascinating and enlightening thread. I would offer the following though: a Hiden Mokuroku is not a teaching license in DR, and a teaching license (Jun-Dairi, Kyoju Dairi) is only valid while the holder is training and affiliated with the issuer - unless you have received full transmission (Menkyo Kaiden). Yonezawa Katsumi is no longer a representative of the Kodokai, and additionally, has since passed away.

Yonezawa independently issued a number of Hiden Mokuroku, Dan rankings, and Jun-Dairi licenses during the 70's and 80's. For qualification of such issuances, see the following thread:

Yonezawa Katsumi (DR Bokuyokan)/ Tim Tung (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14851)

As far as getting injured in training, quite frankly, I've heard a number of stories about Mr. Yonezawa injuring students (by former students). However, this should not be viewed as SOP for Daito ryu, or martial arts in general. Having been a long time personal student of Obata Toshishiro Sensei (referenced previously as being strong handed), I can tell you that he performs techniques at a level that is just below the failure point (slightly below injury). However, he has excellent control, , which comes from years of intensive study under qualified instruction, and he also teaches strong ukemi skills to his students. As such, we do not get injured, regardless of the "realism" of his training methods.

Likewise, I know a number of people in Daito ryu these days, in virtually all major branches, which includes some Kodokai members. Some of them train under Ken (Hayawo) Kiyama Shihan, as well as Roy Goldberg in New York. It is unanimously agreed that the kind of pain you feel under these gentlemen is a different kind of "severe discomfort" (not sure if pain is the correct word), whichis different than the arm-breaking/concussion pain issued out by some teachers. You may have sore wrists after training in some cases, but you shouldn't have serious injuries from regular training sessions.

Jacking someone up in self-defense (joint/bone breaking, percussion, etc. if necessary) is one thing, but there is nothing tough or cool about jacking up fellow students during training, and I wouldn't want such an impression to be assumed of qualified and skilled instructors.

Regards,

[John Lindsey]

At what point may someone use the name "Daito-ryu?"

[Nathan Scott]

Hi John,

I think the "rule" is basically the same for any privately held art.

Specifically, your asking at what point/level is it o.k. for a student to split from their teacher to form their own art (based on the same teachings) or to form their own branch of the art. The easy answer is someone who has either been given permission to do so by the head of the art, or, someone who has been issued full transmission by the head of the art - or preferably, both.

When it gets cloudy is when someone has not been issued full transmission, or has not received permission. Then other factors, such as training history, technical knowledge and ability, and level of ranks/license gained become considerations. Also, to a lesser degree, things like the persons character, contributions to the art, political reasons for leaving, social/professional status, "articles of inheritance" (stuff) can be factored in.

To put it simply, anyone who has not been given permission or issued full transmission will always be "illegitimate" to some degree, in the most technical sense, in regards to the transmission of the mainline art. It is the above considerations and factors that will determine how warmly embraced a person splitting off will be by their peers and those remaining in the more orthodox line(s). It is a grey area.

The situation with TSKSR, Sugino and Sugawara is a good example of this. Sugawara trained for some time, but was kicked out of the mainline. Sugino was given permission to teach outside the mainline by the previous headmaster, and was also a very good technican.

In Daito ryu, Sokaku issued Menkyo Kaiden to Takuma Hisa (Takumakai), Tonedate (who doesn't have a surviving line), and to Horikawa Kodo (Kodokai) either directly or through by his successor Tokimune, depending o your point of view. Tokimune appears to have legitimately succeeded Sokaku, and issued Menkyo Kaiden to Kondo Katsuyuki (mainline). Sagawa Yukiyoshi did not receive Menkyo Kaiden, but did recieve the highest densho being issued at that time, and was also teaching independently while his teacher was still alive (in other words, with his knowledge). Sagawa also may have trained the longest/most with Sokaku, and was one of his most skilled students. As such, a strong case could be made for his line of the art as well. So in the most technical sense, you have the mainline, Takumakai, and Kodokai who have air-tight legitimacy to orthodox Daito ryu, as well as probably the Sagawa dojo (4 lines).

The other branches will be accepted as "legitimate" to varying degrees (some almost fully, others not at all). But someone who was issued a Shodan in Daito ryu who tries to use the name for their own art (without significantly changing or appending the name) is not going to win over many of their colleagues!

Also, the current headmaster of the art may decide to rescind permission to use their arts name, even if it was permitted before by a previous headmaster. Such a decision may not always be respected by their peers, but they would technically have the authority to do so.

And for the record, anyone who issues their own ranks/densho/licenses is an independent art/branch. For example, I know that Okamoto Sensei from the Roppokai considers (or considered) his line to be a branch of Horikawa Kodo's teachings. However, there is a mainline (Kodokai) of which Horikawa Kodo's teachings are being transmitted. Since Okamoto Sensei issues his own ranks/densho/licenses, as the Roppokai "Soshi", he is definitely teaching as an independent branch/art.

Of course, in the old days, legitimacy was largely decided by comparing "physical skills" (shinken shobu, taryu jiai), but as you know, things are just a little different these days.

Regards,

[kokumo]

Originally posted by john denora
Did you know Katsumi Yonezawa Sensei? If you think Yonezawa had that much impact on my psyche,you should get on the mats in the Daito School of Ken Kiyamasan of San Luis Obispo,CA or with Sensei Roy Golberg of NYC for one or more days or evenings and see what those two grass cutters will do to your psyche and your physical pain will be excruciating whenever you grab them.Be sure to tap out fast and loud before you get a concussion.Also, practise up on your Ukemi well before. If they are too soft for you try Obatsan. I guarantee they would be most sado-masochistic on your funny side, hide,skin,bones and brain.I still have not recovered from the pain Kiyama and Goldberg imposed on me in yesteryears. Get yourself some pain killers before you get on the mats with these two Daito School dudes.

Although I have refrained from comment up to this point, the picture painted by remarks above is at such extreme variance from my personal experience that I can't really let them stand unchallenged.

For better or for worse, I missed Yonezawa Sensei when he came through NYC in the late eighties. Several people, both jujutsuka and aikidoka, who did attend classes he taught in a small dojo on St. Marks Place subsequently spoke very well of Kiyama-Sensei, who was serving as Yonezawa Sensei's otomo on that trip. Suffice it to say that their views regarding Yonezawa Sensei, both on a technical and a personal level, were rather less flattering.

Subsequently, it was my good fortune to study with Goldberg Sensei for the better part of a year, during which time Kiyama Sensei and a number of his students visited at least twice. At no time during that period was I subjected to excruciating physical pain or anything approaching a concussion, although both Goldberg Sensei and Kiyama Sensei had considerable skill in quickly connecting with uke's center and taking uke's balance. As Mr. Scott says of Obata Sensei, both had "excellent control" and were careful in their use of my body, for which I am thankful. On and off the mat, both conducted themselves as gentleman, with genuine consideration for those around them. Perhaps I should also thank my early teachers at UC-Santa Cruz, North Bay Aikido, and Bond Street Dojo, all of whom emphasized a fairly fluid and responsive approach to ukemi, for giving me an appropriate skill set that has enabled me to visit a wide variety of dojo through the years without untoward damage.

To be fair, I did see a few individuals who, in training with each other and in training with Goldberg Sensei, attempted to engage in what are often disparaged within aikido circles as "contests of strength." The results appeared to be fairly painful, though it was a mystery to me how many administrations of the lesson were necessary before it sank in.

It was also the case that in regular practice, Goldberg Sensei placed strong emphasis on learning appropriate ukemi prior to attempting (to give or receive) techniques requiring same. On one occasion, I saw a senior practitioner ignore specific cautions along those lines and injure a junior; it is my understanding that following this event, the offending individual was advised that his presence was no longer welcome. Certainly, I never saw him enter the dojo again.

It is now many years since I have trained or spoken with Goldberg Sensei. I do not have any current affiliation with him or the organization he represents, speak for no one but myself in this matter, and have no interest beyond my concern that an individual who once showed me the kindness of doing his best to teach me what he knew is being unfairly maligned.

Of course, Mr. Denora has a right to characterize his experience in any way he wishes.

It is my experience that those who seek pain generally find it and those who make great claims generally find someone to challenge those claims, either more or less immediately.

Fred Little

[john denora]

For Thanksgiving 2003 USA Daito School Professor John Denora's Uncle "Judo" Gene LeBell and his lovely wife Midge sent him the Honorary Tile of HERO in the #1 Fictional Stunt Association and Gene's personal patch "Stuntman Do It All". Prof.Denora's uncle is infamous in USA Judo, Jujitsu, Grappling, Wrestling and dangerous STUNTS. Let it be known that anybody who messes with "Judo" Gene will face the wrath of the KUBI JIME. Professor LeBell says: "When in doubt, choke 'em out."
This includes any famous movie stars, posters, administrators, moderaters, martial art politicos, amateurs, snobs.......so on and so forth. We all wish you a Happy Thanksgiving.
Cheers.
Gassho

[Nathan Scott]

Let it be known that anybody who messes with "Judo" Gene will face the wrath of the KUBI JIME. Professor LeBell says: "When in doubt, choke 'em out." This includes any famous movie stars, posters, administrators, moderaters, martial art politicos, amateurs, snobs.......so on and so forth.

I'm not sure what Judo Gene has to do with anything, or what category I fit into above, but for what it's worth I ran into Gene Lebell about a month ago in a local martial art supply store here in LA. I think he was selling his video tapes or something.

I introduced myself and gave him one of my cards, in case he has trouble remembering names or wanted to contact me in private later. I asked him about his relationship with John Denora, and he gave me a suspicious, uneasy look, and then said "of course anyone in martial arts who has been alive that long I know".

Funny guy. He didn't seem to have any problems with me though, and in fact invited me to his dojo to train. But I dunno, maybe he was expecting me to be a little computer geek or something (shrug). He did know who Obata Sensei was... ;)

FWIW,

[MarkF]

Let it be known that anybody who messes with "Judo" Gene will face the wrath of the KUBI JIME.

Actually, it is kube jime (many judo players pronounce it kubi), and you also may run into Gene's kube nage, as well.

As long as I've known him, his invitation and greetings are sincere so you may want to take him up on it. He has a dojo (and a condo) in the SF Valley) so there are several places to take him up on his invitation.

I'd say his comment concerning Denora pretty much equals Joe Yang's use of the word "interesting."

He's a decent man and always holds out his hand in friendship with an invitation to train. You may want to take him up on the invite. You have a solid grappling background to include judo so I'd say "Go train for a couple of hours." If he's there, you may get more than you might have expected.;)


Mark

[Nathan Scott]

Hey Mark,

Thanks for the post. I've got nothing against Judo Gene - I just couldn't figure out why he was being brought into this discussion.

Anyway, I actually didn't know about the kubi/kube thing either. The times I've seen it has been in old, English Judo books. It's not even listed in most the modern Judo books I have laying around, including the Kodokan Dictionary of Judo. What's the meaning of "kube" - the "burn like fire" (SHO; kuberu) kanji? I reckon that would make sense too!

Regards,

[MarkF]

You don't see it in many judo books because it isn't one of the Kodokan syllabus, though I don't know any who don't use the throw.

I remember my sensei asking me to demonstrate one evening, and he said "kubi nage (he was Isei with a heavy accent, and he even pronounced it that way)," I'd done the throw a million times but I never knew what it was called, so a little embarrassed, I stuck my head out and around my uke and just stared at him. He then shadowed the throw, and that was the first time I had heard the name. Thank god I knew the throw, that would have really been embarrassing.

I think it got into the coversation because Mr. Denora is basically a judo player and that pretty much is it, to be honest. You can see him holding court on another message board, as of late. He is also a bit giggly over the souvenir Gene gave him. He may have been a decent judo player at some point, I never knew him, but he had to have a reason to post the scan of the "stunt guy" thingy. I always thought Gene was the "Fall Guy," though.

Do you know how many people know Gene? If 10 percent of the people he has invited to train took him up on it, it probably runs into the thousands. He's just a great guy with whom to train and perhaps pick up a couple of pointers.

The line "When in doubt, choke him out" has traveled far. When I was in Seattle, I mentioned him to Bernie Lau and that's what he said, too.

Anyway, my cousin caught up with him on a sound stage at one of the studios less than a year before he (my cousin) died, and he had been one of Gene's very early students, in the fifties. He hadn't seen him since then but had some nice memories to share. He quit because he thought Gene was picking on him, using him as uke a lot. He didn't know what that meant at the time, but live and learn.

Time just is screaming by and I'm getting wind burned by it.;)

Thanks for replying.


Mark

[Brian Griffin]

...regarding ranks issued by "Nationally Approved" Judo Organizations.

I came across this some time back, but e-Budo was down at the time so I couldn't post it. Then I misplaced the link for a while, went on vacation etc.

Anyhow...if you go to this link (http://www.usja-judo.org/promo_board/pbMinutes7-9-04.htm) you'll find the minutes of the USJA Promotion Board meeting from July 2004. Here's the interesting excerpt:


SHICHIDAN

John Denora - DID NOT PASS - there was insufficient information submitted for a promotion to this high of a rank. Also, no evidence was found for existing rank issued by an IJF recognized organization.

I suppose it's possible to have a "Nationally Approved" Judo Organization that the IJF never heard of. You may draw your own conclusions.

[MarkF]

Yeah, there are claims of Kodokan-recognized judo organizations the Kodokan has never heard of.


Mark

[Brian Griffin]

The following exchange occurred recently on Judo-L. It sheds a little more light on claims of "Nationally Approved" rank.

(begin quoted material)
********************************************************
Gerald,

This guy is from your neck of the woods. Do you know him?

Thanks, Jeff

USJA Development News (gweers@theramp.net) wrote:


Announcement of Candidacy by Dr. John Denora, J.D.

Subject: ELECTION

From: Dr. John Denora, J.D. -Lawyer & Judoka, johndenora@yahoo.com

Hello: USJA Members (Please Respond)

Today, I am announcing my candidacy to run for the Board of Directors for my first time in the USJA Elections starting in August.
My candidacy is primarily aimed for creativity, propriety of change and the advancement of USJA as a Judo non-profit corporate organization to become second to none.

Firstly, my criteria will be based on leadership with an "open door" policy for the good of the constituency, the USJA corporate organization for Judo, JuJutsu and Aikido and admistration, operations and logistics thereof.

Secondly, my platform is based on my experiences, training and skills as a sports lawyer and Judoka/Jujutsuka for getting needed changes to the ! rules and law of Judo and Judo competition, enforcement of Ethics & Professional Responsibility ,coaching & refereeing.

Of paramount purpose and impact is to protect the welfare of the USJA Corporation and its members from law suits and to render aid, assistance and advice to the President and Board thereof for any improvement/s for change, modification or alteration for the betterment of Judo/JuJutsu and the USJA corporate organization.

Thirdly, emphasis will be on 12 essential principles of leadership and duty which have been identified and based on my personal experiences as a Captain of US Marines, businessman, lawyer and in the past a Judo/JuJutsu athlete and presently coaching Judo/JuJutsu part-time with students at the local, state and national levels of competition.

These 12 principles of leadership and duty are:
1.Treat everyone with respect and dignity.
2.Be honest and direct with every person--always.
3.Insure compliance with effectiv! e and efficient management principles for the USJA Corporation's successful operation.
4. With leadership, hard work and training-- aid everyone to excel in USJA.
5.Identify the critical problems that require solutions for success in Judo/JuJtsu at large and the USJA Corporation.
6.Identify complex issues so every member of USJA can understand the problem/s and assist the organization to grow and succeed.
7. Aid and assist the President of USJA and the Board in the furtherance of their duties and ethical obligations with reasonableness and fairness.
8.Never stop learning for aiding the development of operations & training, administration and fiscal management of USJA.
9.Make ethical standards more important than legal requirements.
10. Emphasis should be on capabilities not organization.
11. Make changes where changes are needed.
12. Lead by example for the benefit of the organization and its active membership, officers, employees and agents.
In conclusion, let me succinctly and sincerely indicate that the Law Offices of John Denora and I have always furthered the best interests of our private and corporate public clients and served them faithfully and ethically to the best of our abilities for 35 years. During this time my California Bar record reflects no disciplinary action which you may confirm through Martindale & Hubbell's law directory at any public law library or University library or contact the State Bar of California and make inquiry.

My firm and I have satisfactorily provided formal legal representation to many Judo athletes , managers and coaches pro bono without thought of financial gain.

I promise that I am physically and financially able to attend all board meetings and seek no financial remuneration for any and all my services or for our law firm while acting as a volunteer member of the board of directors of USJA.

Presently, I am a salaried Professor of Japanese martial ar! ts and a coach of the USD Judo Club, University of San Diego, San Diego, California-site of the 2004 US Judo Nationals at which I was a volunteer in various capacities for several days.

After having paid the necessary fees and submitted myself for criminal background screening the documentary clearance was certified on November 15, 2004. A copy thereof is on record with the National Governing Body of Judo.

Presently, I am a USJA certified Judo coach, category II and Rokudan.

My USMC officer military records as a Captain of Marines reflects a National Agency Check and personal background investigation with a military security clearance up to top secret/cryptographic.

I also will submit myself at any time for screening/security for bonding should the USJA or its insurance carrier so mandate.

The USJA ballots with names may be completed and sent out to the membership by mid-August.

This is my request for your vote and it would be sincerely appreciated having your backing , guidance ,assistance and the endorsement of your Judo or JuJutsu club/dojo.

Please obtain the ballot for this election. Just reply to USJA with your address and phone number should you need a ballot. This year's ballot may also be obtained via Internet or by sending a hard copy letter to USJA Headquarters.

If you desire, you may obtain a copy of my legal resume/curriculum vitae and my Judo and JuJutsu activities with my personal and business background information for the past 30 years or more. Please take time to examine the above and judge for yourself before you exercise your right and privilege to VOTE in this election.

Cordially your friend,

John Denora
Attorney at Law
3639 Midway Drive, Suite 331
San Diego, CA 92110
Tel: 619 742-7718
Jeff Miller
424 Mary Street
Broussard, LA 70518
Cell: 337-303-2096; Work: 337-234-0600
jefmlrjudo@yahoo.com

********************************************************
Yes, I know him, unfortunately. Pay no attention to his candidacy. He is a daito ryu guy who is reinventing himself as a judoka. He has managed to get some group to promote him to 6th dan from out of nowhere on the rank ladder. He got the local yudanshakai to sign off on nidan, now he's a 6th dan. His claim to enforce ethics makes me want to puke. His rank history says a lot about his personal ethics.


If he wants to help the USJA, he will do so for his own benefit- more rank. He has probably learned this trick from Walt Dean, another lawyer, and one of the latest 9th dans (more barfing) in the USJA. Walt also happens to be in my county. I am truly blessed.


In case it wasn't evident, I will not vote for John Denora.
--


Gerald Lafon

Director, Judo America San Diego
Vice-Chairman, USJA Coach Education Committee
Coach, Mira Mesa Weightlifting Club
http://www.judoamerica.com
858 578-7748

********************************************************
It might also be worth doing a quick search on www.e-budo.com for John Denora. He has been discussed in the Bad/Baffling Budo sections before, and failed to impress anyone.

Cheers,

Mads Gabrielsen

********************************************************
Thanks for that info. Perhaps you could summarize for us.


I went to Denora's web site to get a better handle on this character. I see he received a 7th dan in Judo from of all organizations, National Sport Judo. For those of you who may have forgotten, NSJ was started by Mike Cobb for what was initially a good reason. However, NSJ has turned into another U.S. Martial Arts Association- a rank mill. I see Mike is an 8th dan. He was an ikkyu with me in 1974. His wife is a 7th dan, and his daughter is a 4th dan. I guess the Cobb clan is trying to rival the Szrejter clan.


What concerns me even more is that Denora also claims to be a USJA 6th dan as well as a Master Examiner. If this is true, I'd like to crucify those USJA officials responsible for this. The lunatics are truly running the asylum.


So what say you Virgil Bowles? How did John Denora get USJA rank?
--


Gerald Lafon

Director, Judo America San Diego
Vice-Chairman, USJA Coach Education Committee
Coach, Mira Mesa Weightlifting Club
http://www.judoamerica.com
858 578-7748
********************************************************
(end of quoted material)

[MarkF]

I have known many lawyers and a few judges over the years but this is the first time I have ever noted one who used his JD to actually prefix him/herself as "Dr."

He is a flake, and all other discussion aside in this thread, this proves it.


Thanks for passing on the info, Brian. Very, very interesting.


Mark

[Charles W. Kim]

Well over a decade ago, my wife and I trained in John Denora Sensei's dojo for a year or so. My wife edited the dojo newsletter, and we spent quite a bit of time socially with John and his family. He is a truly decent guy, so the bashing of his character that I read in this thread was - in my opinion - unwarranted.

The techniques he taught were jujutsu. Having studied judo and been exposed to aikido, the combat orientation of the techniques was evident. Whether the techniques demonstrated were based specifically on Daito-ryu techniques or other sources, I am not qualified to comment. I can relate that the techniques were effective.

I personally did not witness any rank inflation during my time at the dojo. Students were expected to demonstrate proficiency in a series of techniques, as well as success in sparring, to advance. The general sense was that rank mattered little, and instead one's skill was what counted. Considering the proliferation of belt rankings in other martial arts, it was refreshing to see a return to three levels of basic rank.

I, like other students, suffered minor injuries, but these were inflicted by other students during our application (properly or improperly) of techniques. Since I intended to study a combat art, getting injured was expected. The injuries were no more serious that those suffered in judo practice, and the joint locks, pins and throws no more painful than comparable aikido techniques. I never considered the training unsafe, even when I was knocked out while sparring with a training partner a foot taller and 100 lbs heavier.

As for the atmosphere in the dojo, traditional Japanese formalities were always observed at the beginning, during and end of each training session - something which is missing in some martial arts schools that cater to Westerners.

At the time, John still had an active law practice and a relatively small group of students, so his teaching was not directed principally at making money. He simply enjoyed teaching.

As I am approaching 50 years of age, I'm a bit too old for jujutsu, but hope to return to the study of aikido at San Diego Aikikai soon. Chiba Shihan is not getting any younger, and I would like to be able to benefit from his wisdom. Just watching him demonstrate for the senior students is a thing of beauty - powerful, efficient, effective. Different than jujutsu in purpose and emphasis, but more suited to where I am in life.

I hope that my comments have been helpful.

[Arman]

Mark,

Just FYI, while uncommon, it is not unheard of for lawyers to append, J.D. at the end of their name (much like an M.A. or a Ph.D. or whatever); I've seen this more often from non-practicing lawyers on their resumes or business cards.

The goofy part is calling himself "Dr.", because although J.D. stands for Juris Doctor (Doctor of Law), it is actually the lowest degree in law. It is really a bachelor of law degree. The next step up is the LLM (legum magister), which is a masters of law degree, and usually is a specialized degree (e.g., tax, international law, etc.). I've even seen a doctorate of law before, but I think it was pretty much an honorary degree.

I've never heard of a lawyer calling himself "Dr." because of the JD. But who knows, maybe he has a Ph.D. or something?

Best,
Arman Partamian

[powerof0ne]

I think you can find other styles of jujutsu that will fit you fine at over 50 years of age. I could see myself still studying bjj when I'm over 50.

[MarkF]

Arman,

Sure, the possibility is there, but believe me, I am the last one to take advantage of my academic letters and refer to myself as Dr. because I spent a sixth year in phamacy school.


And I believe you know exactly what I meant in John Denora's case. He had that little problem handing out rank cards and such.

There is one thing you will never get from me and that is my grade in Kodokan Judo. If after four decades I haven't earned the right not to mention it, I probably should retire.

Anyway, this was John Denora's thread, wasn't it? Just as JD has sort of beginner's value so does mine. The difference is that I never bring it up. There are physicians, psychologists, other JDs, and hosts of others who have the right to preface their names with Dr. but choose not to, as have I.


Now that I think of it, this is a really old thread. I just had to have the last word, I guess.

Best wishes,

Mark F.


Mr. Kim,

Believe it or not, most of us like to here of good experiences with someone generally thought to be useless, so yes, your post was very helpful. I doubt it will change many minds, but with so many others with experiences just the opposite of yours, it is always refreshing to hear from the other side.


Thank you.

MFF

[MarkF]

I was right. This thread begun in January, 2001.


Mark

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Kim,

You're comments here are welcome.

As far as ranks go, I'll just say it's come to my attention that someone here in Los Angeles has apparently purchased a 9th dan in Daito-ryu recently from John Denora, who himself claims to hold a self-awarded 10th dan. This individual in LA has little to no training in Daito-ryu under Denora or anyone else. I'll post a thread about this when I get a chance...

Regards,

[Jitsumania]

It is a very sad day in the martial arts when a person can BUY a ninth dan ranking in Daito ryu or any art for that matter and have absolutely no knowledge or training in that art. I have recently started studying Daito Ryu under Jose Lopez (4th dan), Senior Instructor under Okamoto Sensei, who won't even allow himself to be called Sensei and voices that that privilidge comes after 6 th dan ranking. I appreciate his humility. He voices that there is one Sensei and that is Okamoto Sensei. In a Ryu whwere this much respect is rooted and years of training are valued, how can Mr. Denora even be allowed to use the Daito Ryu name without some type of negative legal ramification?
This is beyond me!
I would hope that Mr. Denora is admonished by the powers that be for such action.

[kiai]

Is it not just another hill of beans?

Ueshiba wore a white belt.

Others proclaim themselves king of the hill.

Who wants to perch that high?

[powerof0ne]

I have known many lawyers and a few judges over the years but this is the first time I have ever noted one who used his JD to actually prefix him/herself as "Dr."

He is a flake, and all other discussion aside in this thread, this proves it.


Thanks for passing on the info, Brian. Very, very interesting.


Mark

My uncle is a Superior court judge and has never called himself Doctor, haha. I literally giggle just thinking of him having anyone call him doctor.

[Nathan Scott]

Apparently John Denora died of bone cancer at the age of 78 years old about a week ago on August 28th, 2008. An announcement by someone named Daniel Hect, CEO of one of the "Masters Hall of Fame", was recently forwarded to me.

[Brian Griffin]

I am sorry to hear that news. My condolences to his family and students. May he rest in peace.

[Jitsumania]

Even though I did not see eye to eye with mr Denora I do extend my condolences to his family as well as those who were close to him.
May he rest in peace.

[Brently Keen]

Even though I did not see eye to eye with mr Denora I do extend my condolences to his family as well as those who were close to him.
May he rest in peace.

These are my sentiments as well.

I met John on several occasions and despite my entirely different opinions and perspectives, he was at first generous and sincere, and always enthusiastic about DR and budo, so that's how I'll try to remember him.

Respectfully,

Brently Keen

[Mary De Nora]

Well.

Obviously, I'll have something to say of John De Nora, as I'm his daughter.

For those of you who don't really know the man and you call yourself martial artists, but you choose to make scathing remarks, you ought to shut your mouths. You have not learned the true nature of the martial arts.

For those of you who have a genuine interest in actually knowing the man, here is what a long term and well-respected man of the martial arts had to say of him at his memorial service (and mind you, this is not even 1% of what he has accomplished...I could go on and on about his climbing Mt. Fujiyama, serving with masters in Japan, learning Japanese and Chinese). Those who pretend to know him or judge him on a few meetings, are rediculous:

Bio of my dad, John De Nora, shared at his Memorial Service:

John led a very full life and will be remembered by many people. A compassionate, insightful person, he never shied away from hard work and was always as ready to learn as he was to teach.

John had a strong faith in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. He trusted that through the trials in life that God, and God alone, would keep his soul. He knew the weight and responsibility of a life founded on the Truth; he sought to carry out justice and defend those who had no defender.

John was a lawyer who took on difficult cases, first in the military, being involved with JAG, and then as a civilian attorney. he even went before the Supreme Court.

John was a Captain in the Marine Corps, and served his country faithfully through tours of duty in Japan, Okinawa, Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, and other areas. Many of the details of his military service are classified, but it is enough to say he was a highly decorated officer whose work saved the lives of many men and women.

John studied directly under Charles Atlas as a young man, and maintained a passion for athletic pursuits throughout his life. Also as a young man, he began to study martial arts under his grandfather's direction.

Eventually, John became skilled in all areas of combat- from Western swordfighting, boxing, grappling, knife fighting, and marksmanship to the refined fighting methods of Asian Karate, Kung-Fu, Tai Chi Chuan, Judo, Jiu-Jitsu, Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu, and Japanese weaponry.

In the martial arts community, John may be most well-known for his skills in Daito-Ryu, an art which he dedicated himself to preserving for future generations. He demonstrated Daito-Ryu to audiences around the world, and taught the secrets of the art to those he trusted.



Rest in peace, dad.

[Mary De Nora]

BTW, Because my dad had a heart for preserving Daito-Ryu in the states, he encouraged martial artists by giving them membership cards... But, good business and discipleship sense would tell those of you who have such a gift this fact. =) God bless you gentlemen and those aspiring to be such.

[Mary De Nora]

While John De Nora may have spent a great deal of time grappling and spending time in the martial arts. And, he did, in fact, teach me stick when I was ten years old, this I will say. He cultivated his art. And, I cultivated my through the Word.

Please consider:

For those who want to label John De Nora as "Daito-Ryu" or "Judo" or "Jujitsu" or this or that, you should know that he was a fluid man, a man of great creativity and intelligence. Those of you in the arts who have not cultivated relationship in and among all branches are seriously in great want. The word I would use for the man is UNITY. Given he had 68 years to cultivate his passion for the martial arts with focus and integrity, those of you who speak against the man, I offer this:

1. I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

Those who condemn are condemning themselves.

2. Death and life are in the power of the tongue, And those who love it will eat its fruit.

3. Out of the abundance of your heart, your mouth speaks.

4. The tongue of the wise uses knowledge rightly; but the mouth of fools pours forth foolishness.

5. A wholesome tongue is a tree of life, but perverseness in it breaks the spirit.

6. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers.

7. A man has joy by the answer of his mouth, and a word spoken in due season, how good it is!

Your hearts are revealed through your words. Your words will reflect in your actions. And, ultimately, we will all stand before Him to whom each word is weighed.

The Lord, the King of the Universe, weighs the arts in the balance. He weighs your soul and your heart. And, each of us, will stand before Him. This you know.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

So, we are all without excuse before Him. For He has already been revealed.

God bless you, mighty men of valour, who hold your practice in the highest caliber of virtue, in the highest caliber of honor and integrity, and those who do not bow to accusations, whether false or justified thus avoiding the devil's work and the devil's art.

All glory, honor and power be to the One True God of the Universe. Elohim.

My final response to accusations made against John De Nora.

It is finished.

In His Grace,
Mary Dawn De Nora

[Nathan Scott]

Ms. Denora,

While I realize that you have an emotional investment in this subject, be advised that I will not tollerate inappropriate conduct, such as telling members to "shut their mouths". First and last warning. There are many members here who also serve their countries and society in many ways, and are well respected martial artists.


1. I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

Such a concept works both ways.

This is not a religious forum, and many here follow belief systems that differ from yourself. It is not within the scope of this website to debate whose God will win in the ultimate Octagon of Truth. Please desist from preaching to our members.

You're welcome to express yourself on this forum if you can do so appropriately and on-topic, but I would ask that you first consider whether or not it is really in the best interest of your father's memory to surf the internet calling out your father's detractors. I'd prefer not to talk ill about the dead. Many view it as distasteful. But personally, I find the spreading of misinformation on this forum more distasteful.

Regards,

[Mary De Nora]

Mr. Scott,

Whether many of the people in the forum are men or women who have served there country or not is of no consequence when it comes down to character.

A man of character has no need to defame others.

So, those who would pretend character, should be silent and learn. Isn't this taught in the martial arts?

I am sure that you, yourself, would agree if it were you who were being attacked in such a way.

As for religion. Defaming another whether in the context of martial arts or any other forum goes to the heart of code of conduct, something that seems to be appropriate in this setting. And, btw, defamation is still illegal in this country--the country we serve.

Obviously, not every person in this string regarding my father believes the defamatory statements made against him.

If you are choosing to be a moderator, it might be better had you used your same criticism of me upon those who defamed a man, you really know absolutely nothing about.

Maybe you will consider your own professional code of conduct in this matter.

Thank you for your time.

Very truly yours,
Mary De Nora

[Nathan Scott]

Responding or defending questions about licensing and ranking should not be a taboo subject with any instructor. They should be easy to answer, and do not require emotional responses. Your father posted his responses here, and readers are welcome to compare the questions and experiences posed to the answers that were offered in return.

You state I know "absolutely nothing" about your father, but yet you do not know anything about me, who I train with, and what information I have access to. You may disagree with myself and others because of your family ties, but that does not mean none of us posting know anything about your father - and more importantly, how he has conducted himself over the years.

Codes of conduct do relate to martial arts, and are a valid topic in forums such as this, but morals, ethics, and conduct are different from strongly expressing specific religious views. Please don't try to confuse them together.

I'm sorry if you feel my replies to you have been of a "criticizing" nature. Perhaps it is simply not possible for you to post to forums like this objectively.

Regards,

[lucky1899]

Mary,

Just for the record, please note that before Nathan Scott posted the notice of John Denora's death, the last post was from August 2006. Since Nathan has posted the notice, I don't think any of the posts would pass for defamation. I'm not defending e-budo, the posters, or John Denora nor do I think any of the aforementioned need defending but if you're going to post with such vigor, you should pay more attention to the details.

Regards,

Andrew De Luna

[Scott Harrington]

Bujutsu vs. Budo

The first is a killing art, the second is using that art to be a better person.

I see a lot of attacks here but little of people being better persons.

John Denora recently passed away. He lived an active life: a captain in the USMC, a lawyer (we won’t hold that against him), a Mason, and a martial artist. He did Judo (how many can say they took falls with Donn Draeger), he did Chinese arts, he did Daito-ryu under Yonezawa sensei (the first to bring over this art in modern times to the U.S.) and he loved talking about the martial arts.

He was cantankerous, irritable at times, funny, interesting, an old man with an older body, knew a lot of budo gossip, knew some of the skeletons buried where, had some good waza, had some sloppy waza, opinionated to hell, knew how to cause pain, liked to teach, loud, and did I say funny.

I never received nor wanted paper from Denora sensei, nor studied with him. We talked, he gave me ideas, said some neat things, rambled occasionally, cussed a little, was religious in his own way, and lived a full life to 78. Seems like an achievement to me.

Some people here are speaking ill of the dead. Well, if you follow an eastern martial art then you might have heard of karma and I think you’re collecting interest.

There are some hidden agendas going on here, which I’ll let lie dormant (is that lie or lay?) because I’m not a P**tz. I see in this thread insults about a person and his instructor that are unverified, slanted, and knowingly approved by members of this forum. Politics.

But it’s not really important because it’s just martial arts politics – it doesn’t really mean anything because the guy teaching Tae Kwon Do down the street has a full class of kids. and he’s driving a BMW. Most who climb the ladder of rank of these archaic arts will never use this stuff in a lethal or near lethal manner.

What I’ll remember is that there was this guy who liked martial arts just as much as I did, studied with some neat people, taught a little, talked some, and was nice to those who treated him kindly.

Scott Harrington
co-author of “Aiki Toolbox: Exploring the Magic of Aikido”

[Finny]

Well.

Obviously, I'll have something to say of John De Nora, as I'm his daughter.

For those of you who don't really know the man and you call yourself martial artists, but you choose to make scathing remarks, you ought to shut your mouths. You have not learned the true nature of the martial arts.





Well - that's a well balanced opening.

"For those who don't really know the man, and choose to make scathing remarks... you have not learned the true nature of martial arts"

So - no-one here knows anything about Mr. Denora - but you know enough about them to make some scathing remarks of your own?

How very pious.






If you are choosing to be a moderator, it might be better had you used your same criticism of me upon those who defamed a man, you really know absolutely nothing about.

Maybe you will consider your own professional code of conduct in this matter.

Thank you for your time.

Very truly yours,
Mary De Nora



I have been a member of E-Budo for many years now. It is, without a doubt, THE MOST mature, balanced Martial Arts forum on the internet.

Every moderator here works extremely hard to ensure that the level of discourse taking place here is of a reasonable standard - none moreso than Nathan Scott.

You seem quite eager to insist that nobody here "knows anything" about Mr. Denora. This is obviously not true.

Nigh on every "scathing remark" made on this thread has been made by people in a position to know exactly what and who they are discussing.

Many of these "scathing remarks" where posted in the form of first-person anecdotes which simply served to convey the individual poster's experiences with Mr. Denora. It is a shame that you find these stories and assertions so painful, but they have been posted here honestly, with integrity and in a mature, respectful fashion.

Spouting self-righteous religious sermons is not a mature, respectful way to conduct a discussion.

Attacking individuals because of the statements they have made here, rather than the statements themselves - is known as ad hominem argument, and is not a valid debating technique. As I said, nearly all of the criticisms I have read on this thread have involved first-hand experiences - some of which where confirmed by Mr. Denora's own posts.

I am truly sorry that you have lost your father - my sincerest condolences.

[Josh Reyer]

Some people here are speaking ill of the dead.

Who? I'd like names, please, because as near I as I can see, the posters here have been nothing but respectful since Mr. De Nora's passing was announced.

[Nathan Scott]

Thanks for everyone's contributions (including Ms. Denora's). If this thread can serve some further purpose, I'd like to leave it open. But if it is going to be used to stir the flames on someone who is no longer with us, then we may be better off closing 'er down. The next post or two will determine the disposition on this.

As far as speaking ill and bad karma, I also haven't seen anyone speaking ill of the deceased. If anything, everyone - including myself, seems to be making every effort to avoid the subject as much as possible.


Most who climb the ladder of rank of these archaic arts will never use this stuff in a lethal or near lethal manner.

Scott, sorry to see that you have taken this thread personally.

FWIW though, while your above quote is correct, it is somewhat irrelevant as long as there are law enforcement, military, secret service, treasury agents, FBI, etc. training in these arts and applying them on a regular basis. Most martial artists are hobbiests, but martial arts by definition are supposed to be applicable as "martial" in the practical sense if needed. To train otherwise (non-martial) is to change the core nature of "martial arts" (budo). There are members of this very forum who put their lives on the line using these methods, and do so on a fairly regular basis. It's not really fair to dismiss those that use martial arts professionally (IMO) just because they currently represent the minority of practitioners.

Regards,

[Scott Harrington]

Nathan,

I too have trained with Secret Service, Police, Military, and private security concerns who need to use techniques in their daily life. Their biggest concern was the viability of the teaching, not arcane lineage.

I appreciate those that carry the arts forward for the next generation.

Scott Harrington

[Mary De Nora]

My messages originally were directed toward all individuals who have posted dematory or scathing remarks against the man, no matter what year.

[Mary De Nora]

Scott Harrington has offered up one of most honest conclusions I've seen with regard to the man and with regard to an outlook on life and the martial arts.

Ultimately, separate from religion or whatever the moderator's true complaint is, when we speak of teachers in the martial arts, it is wiser to wait to answer.

As, integrity and wisdom does not speak out of turn.

In the martial arts, you will do well to observe integrity and wisdom over assumptions upon appearances or one time meetings or even few meetings. Many of the best teachers are well-hidden fortresses who challenge and test as a way of making out your character.

Some may say 77 years gives you the right to do this. Some may say 68 years in the martial arts gives you the right to do this.

As, this forum has presented some good things to say about Mr. De Nora, some inaccurate, some accurate, AND many bad things, inaccurate and some accurate for the past, the reminder is here.....

We all will give an account for our words....whether in this lifetime or the eternity. Whether as Mr Harrington said, "karma" or as I say "you reap what you sow," get ready my friends. Get ready those who have judged my judgment of inequity in many of the postings.

Be ready.

For wisdom is a pearl in the midst of an ocean of sand.

Did you find the pearl here?

HAHAHAHAHAHAH

God bless you. Because, you don't have to practice the arts void of God.

Mary D.




Bujutsu vs. Budo

The first is a killing art, the second is using that art to be a better person.

I see a lot of attacks here but little of people being better persons.

John Denora recently passed away. He lived an active life: a captain in the USMC, a lawyer (we won’t hold that against him), a Mason, and a martial artist. He did Judo (how many can say they took falls with Donn Draeger), he did Chinese arts, he did Daito-ryu under Yonezawa sensei (the first to bring over this art in modern times to the U.S.) and he loved talking about the martial arts.

He was cantankerous, irritable at times, funny, interesting, an old man with an older body, knew a lot of budo gossip, knew some of the skeletons buried where, had some good waza, had some sloppy waza, opinionated to hell, knew how to cause pain, liked to teach, loud, and did I say funny.

I never received nor wanted paper from Denora sensei, nor studied with him. We talked, he gave me ideas, said some neat things, rambled occasionally, cussed a little, was religious in his own way, and lived a full life to 78. Seems like an achievement to me.

Some people here are speaking ill of the dead. Well, if you follow an eastern martial art then you might have heard of karma and I think you’re collecting interest.

There are some hidden agendas going on here, which I’ll let lie dormant (is that lie or lay?) because I’m not a P**tz. I see in this thread insults about a person and his instructor that are unverified, slanted, and knowingly approved by members of this forum. Politics.

But it’s not really important because it’s just martial arts politics – it doesn’t really mean anything because the guy teaching Tae Kwon Do down the street has a full class of kids. and he’s driving a BMW. Most who climb the ladder of rank of these archaic arts will never use this stuff in a lethal or near lethal manner.

What I’ll remember is that there was this guy who liked martial arts just as much as I did, studied with some neat people, taught a little, talked some, and was nice to those who treated him kindly.

Scott Harrington
co-author of “Aiki Toolbox: Exploring the Magic of Aikido”

[Mary De Nora]

because as near I as I can see, the posters here have been nothing but respectful since Mr. De Nora's passing was announced.

Josh...this is not a criticism of your post...this is an observation I am making of the thread with regard to my father.......

My point since the beginning of chiming in on this forum...which I found prior to my dad's death and read many of the remarks, but held my peace is this:

Do we need to WAIT to be respectful about others until after they die?

Some food for thought:

In the arts, being respectful to someone who is alive seems to be of more benefit than being respectful once they are dead...

How will they know your respect if you wait until they are dead to show it?

In His Grip,
Mary De Nora

[Josh Reyer]

Josh...this is not a criticism of your post...this is an observation I am making of the thread with regard to my father.......

My point since the beginning of chiming in on this forum...which I found prior to my dad's death and read many of the remarks, but held my peace is this:

Do we need to WAIT to be respectful about others until after they die?

Some food for thought:

In the arts, being respectful to someone who is alive seems to be of more benefit than being respectful once they are dead...

How will they know your respect if you wait until they are dead to show it?


For the living folk, respect is earned, and must be maintained. For the recently deceased, a certain level of respect is given --temporarily-- as a matter of decorum and courtesy, in consideration for the gravity of death, and the grief of friends and loved ones.

My point in specific was to Mr. Harrington's entirely false statement that people here were speaking ill of the dead. No one was doing that.

[DDATFUS]

Dear Ms. De Nora,

It is clear from the previous posts that many people on this forum did not see eye-to-eye with your father. However, despite that, all of the posters who commented after your father's death limited themselves to saying something nice or at least neutral about your father and expressing regret at his passing. I think that their behavior in this matter was exemplary.

Your recent posts, however, are threatening to stir back up a discussion that can only hurt your father's memory. As an "outside observer" to this thread, I have to confess that your attacks on members of this forum-- people whom you have never met and whose training, martial arts experience, and personal character you simply have no way of knowing-- did not impress me. I am concerned that this tactic is doing more to hurt than to help your cause.

It's understandable that you have very strong feelings about this subject, but in this case it might be far better to let sleeping dogs lie.

Nathan,
I know that this forum isn't a democracy, but if it were, I'd probably casting my vote towards locking this down in the near future. I'm having trouble imagining it going uphill from here.

[Nathan Scott]

David, agreed. I was hoping future contributions would be non-religious and productive, but that clearly is not going to happen anytime soon.

Regards,

[Dustinacuff]

Not a mod here, but this is the aikijujitsu forum. The thread is referencing a debate about the late Mr. Denora. In all honesty it is a bit difficult for anything posted on this particular thread to be taken seriously.

Mayhaps the jujitsu forum would be a better place?
Or because HRJ and DRAJ have such close roots create a new post?

[Prince Loeffler]

Not a mod here, but this is the aikijujitsu forum. The thread is referencing a debate about the late Mr. Denora. In all honesty it is a bit difficult for anything posted on this particular thread to be taken seriously.

Mayhaps the jujitsu forum would be a better place?
Or because HRJ and DRAJ have such close roots create a new post?


Hi ! I already gave the poster warning for excessive posting and posting in all the wrong places.