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Hissho
17th October 2008, 05:27
http://www.traintolive.com/articles/Physical%20Self-Defense%20Level%201.pdf

tenchijin2
17th October 2008, 15:25
Good stuff. I found myself completely disagreeing with his assessment of "gender stereotypes" as cultural creations. I also disagree with the author because contrary to conventional wisdom, rape IS about sex.

Thanks for sharing.

TonyU
17th October 2008, 18:21
Good stuff. I found myself completely disagreeing with his assessment of "gender stereotypes" as cultural creations. I also disagree with the author because contrary to conventional wisdom, rape IS about sex.

Thanks for sharing.
Very rarely it is. When it comes to adult male on adult women many time it's about control, debasing the women or about some deep seated hatred.
When it comes to children it's whole different matter.

tenchijin2
18th October 2008, 01:10
Very rarely it is. When it comes to adult male on adult women many time it's about control, debasing the women or about some deep seated hatred.
When it comes to children it's whole different matter.

The defining characteristic of rape is sex. You cannot physically rape someone without a sexual act. Therefore, it IS about sex.

You can debase and control with all manner of other acts, but you cannot rape without sex. Add to that, a great many rapists are motivated by sexual impulse, not control impulse. Like many criminals they lack impulse control.

I do not disagree that domination and forcing of will upon another is part of a rapists pathology, but the statement that "rape is not about sex" is just wrong, in my opinion.

Take care,

Brian Owens
18th October 2008, 11:17
The defining characteristic of rape is sex.

No, the defining characteristic of rape is violation.

If a husband and wife are engaged in a loveing coupling, is that rape? Of course not; and yet it is a sexual encounter. In this case, the defining characteristic is love.

Without violation, force, threat, or intimidation, sex is not rape, there sex cannot be the "defining characteristic" of rape.

Sex is the rapist's tool, but as has been well documented, if the ability to act sexually is removed (castration/immasculation, for example), rapists will often choose other tools of violation/control/violence.

TonyU
18th October 2008, 13:35
The defining characteristic of rape is sex. You cannot physically rape someone without a sexual act. Therefore, it IS about sex.

You can debase and control with all manner of other acts, but you cannot rape without sex. Add to that, a great many rapists are motivated by sexual impulse, not control impulse. Like many criminals they lack impulse control.

I do not disagree that domination and forcing of will upon another is part of a rapists pathology, but the statement that "rape is not about sex" is just wrong, in my opinion.

Take care,
So I guess all the experts are wrong. Do a quick search on motivation of rape and you'll see the common denominators are anger power and sadism.
A rapist may get some sexual gratification but it's not the primary motivator.
Very few rapist do it for purely sexual gratification.



Sex is the rapist's tool, but as has been well documented, if the ability to act sexually is removed (castration/immasculation, for example), rapists will often choose other tools of violation/control/violence.
Correct, sir.

tenchijin2
18th October 2008, 15:45
A physical rape cannot exist without sex. Control and domination can.

Rape isn't *entirely* about sex, but it is about sex. The rapist views sex as his way of getting his way.

What is rape without sex? Assault. Both assault and sex must be present for it to be a rape. Perhaps I should have said sex is *one of the* defining characteristics of rape.

Bear in mind, this is in response to the fatuous assertion that "rape is NOT about sex." That's like saying murder is not about killing, because it's more about control. In many cases that's true but no one ever says "murder isn't about killing," do they?

If one were to say "rape is about more than sex," or "rape is not entirely about sex," then I believe that would be a more sensible point of view.

I fully understand what the "experts" say about rape not being about sex. It defies common sense. This is one of those areas where I believe people often discard obvious truth in favor of convenient dogma of the educated. I grew up hearing "rape is NOT about sex." I understand its foundation. Really, I do. I disagree with it.

But that's okay, since I'm not an expert, you can feel totally comfortable disregarding my view. My view is clearly in the minority and I'm okay with that.

tenchijin2
18th October 2008, 15:56
So I guess all the experts are wrong. Do a quick search on motivation of rape and you'll see the common denominators are anger power and sadism.

Ah, and sadism is sexual, right? without the element of sexual behavior, sadism becomes what?


A rapist may get some sexual gratification but it's not the primary motivator.
Very few rapist do it for purely sexual gratification.


I didn't argue that a rapist was interested in sexual gratification (whether he is or not is irrelevant). You're creating strawmen. Reread what I wrote carefully. What I wrote is that rape requires sex, therefore rape is about sex. It is also about domination and control, that is correct.

The notion of rape "for purely sexual gratification" hasn't been asserted by me. Nor would it. Please do not put words in my mouth.

I'm objecting to the language "rape isn't about sex." That's too bold a statement, and it clouds the issue, in my opinion.

Using this kind of logic you could easily argue that no act is about what it accomplishes. Theft isn't about taking someone elses' things, it's about filling some deep seated compulsion. Murder isn't about killing, it's about the self-centered desire to have one's way against another's will. And on, and on. But for some reason only rape gets this treatment, and it's become something of a sacred cow in academic circles. I have some theories as to why that is, but they aren't really germaine to this conversation.

Bruce Mitchell
18th October 2008, 21:52
I don't think that there is a simple answer to this debate, but I also take issue with Susan Brownmiller's conclusions, if for no other reason than it has been more than three decades since they were put forward and yet the acceptance of this theory has done nothing to decrease the incidence of rape, nor has applying this theory lowered the recidivism rate among convicted rapist. There are plenty of examples of people "in power" who commit rape to make it common sense to question Brownmiller's claims. There are competing theories out there, but the barrier of "political correctness" makes it difficult if not impossible to challenge the generation of soft science that has grown up around Brownmiller's book.

Brian Owens
18th October 2008, 23:56
...Perhaps I should have said sex is *one of the* defining characteristics of rape.

Yes, that would have been more accurate.


Bear in mind, this is in response to the fatuous assertion that "rape is NOT about sex." That's like saying murder is not about killing, because it's more about control. In many cases that's true but no one ever says "murder isn't about killing," do they?

Uh, yes, actually.

To the question, "Why'd ya do it," very few murderers -- except for a few psychopathic "thrill-killers" -- would say they did it "to kill." Most often it's about hate, jealousy, money, covering another crime, etc. Motive is the defining characteristic of murder, and is what differentiates murder from manslaughter, justifiable homicide, etc.

Murder is killing, but it's not usually about killing. Rape is sexual, but it's not usually about sex.


I fully understand what the "experts" say about rape not being about sex. It defies common sense.

That's true. But "common sense" is often incomplete or just plain wrong. Common sense would say that the earth is flat, and only careful study and much thought has shown that it's not.

I'll admit that "rape isn't about sex" is an incomplete statement, but it's a useful tool for getting people to think more deeply about what's really going on.

tenchijin2
19th October 2008, 00:13
To the question, "Why'd ya do it," very few murderers -- except for a few psychopathic "thrill-killers" -- would say they did it "to kill." Most often it's about hate, jealousy, money, covering another crime, etc. Motive is the defining characteristic of murder, and is what differentiates murder from manslaughter, justifiable homicide, etc.

Precisely, but no one ever publishes the statemt "Murder isn't about killing." Because it's silly.


Murder is killing, but it's not usually about killing. Rape is sexual, but it's not usually about sex.
Murder is indeed about killing, and more. Rape is about sex... and MORE.




That's true. But "common sense" is often incomplete or just plain wrong. Common sense would say that the earth is flat, and only careful study and much thought has shown that it's not.
I agree that common sense can be wrong, but saying that it *can* be wrong doesn't make it wrong in this case.


I'll admit that "rape isn't about sex" is an incomplete statement, but it's a useful tool for getting people to think more deeply about what's really going on.
Okay, the admission that it's an incomplete statement is the whole point! Why tell people something that obfuscates? Be honest. Rape is a sexual act of violence, or a violent act of sex. Sex is *an essential* component of rape. When you tell people "rape isn't about sex" it confuses the issue, and clouds the real problem: some people have a hard time separating the act of sex from issues of violence, domination, and control. The rapist doesn't choose the act of sex for no reason... he chooses it because it means something to him in his psyche that other forms of assault don't.

So, I question "the experts." I'm not the only one.

Brian Owens
19th October 2008, 00:37
...Murder is indeed about killing...

Okay, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on what the word "about" means in this context.

To me, "about" means the motivation...the raison d'Ítre...of the act. Apperently it means something different to you.

I stand by my statements: Murder is killing, but it's not usually about killing. Rape is sexual, but it's not usually about sex.

I accept that you disagree with these statements.

Let's move along; there's more to a discussion of what is or is not a good self protection primer than what the author considers the motive of rape to be.

tenchijin2
19th October 2008, 00:58
I think that's a good idea.