Minamoto Tametomo / Ryukyu Gotende

[Nathan Scott]

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[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[Jim O'Connell]

Nathan,

On one of my training trips to Chiba with Kuroda sensei, he noted that Seikichi Uehara sensei's style was real martial arts. He and some of the advanced deshi had made trips to visit Uehara sensei to feel and observe his Udundi including his iai (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkRkzOPc5Bs&NR=1)and other weapons use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsdScRBZF4w (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsdScRBZF4w)

It was his opinion that this was true martial arts from his viewpoint. There is a good interview here as well (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5o7x5SHdu8&feature=related). This interview with the Grandmaster was done around 1997 when he was 93 years of age, and Kuroda sensei visited him after that. He has passed away since then in 2004.

I do not know the specific history or its relevance, but there is a bit on the web to watch and read about the art (http://www.seishindojo.be/new-page-3.htm)and Uehara sensei. Perhaps you can track down some of the written material and expound further.

Even his Anji-no-mai-no-te Kata (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdyD-NFJF1Q&feature=related) appear to be soft in orientation and remind me of the exercises the internal aiki guys are talking about. This video shows some of his weapons work (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy-sN4m1vK8&feature=related) which exhibits some very sophisticated weapons work and unbalancing skills as well.


Regards,
Jim

[Todd Lambert]

Karate researcher Mario McKenna has written a little (http://okinawakarateblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/motobu-ryu.html) on this suject.

[TimothyKleinert]

While the story is intriguing, I don't see any obvious similarities to Daito-ryu in those videos of Uehara.

Rather, the movements of Uehara remind more of something Chinese, like Taiji or the like (especially the Anji-no-mai-no-te kata (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdyD-NFJF1Q&feature=related)). Given that there's a well-known connection between karate and Chinese MA, I don't think that idea is stretching things very far.

The grappling focus doesn't mean much to me, either. I know kata bunkai is a controversial subject, but there are those within karate that argue that the older kata should be interpreted as grappling, rather than as a series of strikes, like it commonly is today.

Outside of the oral history---which is intriguing---my initial reaction to this is a case of "if a=b & b=c, then a=c". Daito-ryu /Aikido shares certain principles with Chinese (I)MA. Karate has a connection to Chinese MA. Thus, superficial similarities are going to exist between Daito-ryu/Aikido and karate.

But I don't know, that's just my initial reaction.

[henjoyuko]

This:




Even his Anji-no-mai-no-te Kata (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdyD-NFJF1Q&feature=related) appear to be soft in orientation and remind me of the exercises the internal aiki guys are talking about. This video shows some of his weapons work (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy-sN4m1vK8&feature=related) which exhibits some very sophisticated weapons work and unbalancing skills as well.


Made me think of the solo practice demonstrated in this:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uPhG6XA2fL8

It may be a bit of a stretch, but soften it up a bit, string it together and there is some similarity. The big question of course is what *exactly* is being worked in these movements?

Allen

[TimothyKleinert]

Made me think of the solo practice demonstrated in this:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uPhG6XA2fL8

It may be a bit of a stretch, but soften it up a bit, string it together and there is some similarity. The big question of course is what *exactly* is being worked in these movements?
I can see that, but this is what I thought of when I saw the Anji-no-mai-no-te kata:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0tc8IGYpfU

[Nathan Scott]

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[TimothyKleinert]

The real value of this history is the fact that it is an independent line of oral history that contains similar elements to that of Daito-ryu oral history:

1) A Seiwa-Genji grappling art being developed/passed down at such an early period, especially when several of the Minamoto were famous for their skills at archery (the weapon of choice at the time).

2) A Seiwa-Genji grappling art being transmitted in secret within the highest levels of nobility and/or government in both Okinawa and Japan. In an art with an oral history, finding a parallel history that shares certain unique elements in such a completely different martial culture adds to the probability that the history is based on actual facts (unlike the histories of some koryu).
I agree, it seems quite unusual that two independent groups would share such similar oral histories, if there wasn't some sort of underlying truth or shared history...


3) The fact that this early Okinawan grappling art was said to have been characterized by ceremonial "dancing hands" (odori-te), and may have incorporated aikido-like movements, is very compelling. Aside from Sumo, this grappling art would have preceded all other formalized jujutsu ryu-ha in Japanese history, and most extant jujutsu ryu-ha (aside from Daito-ryu) do not display aikido-like movements, or, handwork that at times resembles traditional dance. Daito-ryu and aikido are also somewhat unique in their unarmed curriculum in that they are both pretty much exclusively arts comprised of hand techniques (sanzen no te).

I'm not following on why the "dancing hands" thing is important, could you elaborate? Also, does John Sells (or another source) explain how Uehara's movements are "Aikido-like"? By itself, that seems like a meaningless description. "Aikido-like" principles can be found in many arts.

I'm pressing the latter point because there's a verifiable link between some Okinawan MA's and Chinese (I)MA. And there's enough superficial (and some not-so-superficial) similarities between certain Chinese (I)MA's and Daito-ryu/Aikido, that every so often someone asks if Ueshiba was exposed to BaGua, or if Daito-ryu shares some sort of link to Taiji. Are Uehara's movements really "Aikido-like", or are they maybe "Taiji/BaGua/C(I)MA-like" (which in turn shares similiarities to DR/Aikido)?

Again, while the oral history is interesting, a simpler explanation for the technical issues you mention would seem to be some sort of Chinese connection. Strengthening this idea is that McKenna link, which states that Uehara's school used to (still does?) teach certain "karate kata" like sanchin and sochin, which are known to be Chinese in origin.


[T]he Mai no Te Kata appears to me to be mostly empty hand sword cuts combined with karate stances and footwork.
I can tell right away that the kata is an elaborate "silk-reeling" exercise, like (arguably) most Taiji forms. In that video, though, Uehara seems to be mostly working his arms, there's not a whole lot being done with his lower half. The more dance-like Bu no Mai (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vitxPuC7sTI&feature=related) video is similar in that regard, though the walking makes me think of BaGua circle-walking (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fueL5DsMMU&feature=related).

[Nathan Scott]

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