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mdouglas
27th January 2001, 22:17
I have been reading martial arts bboard and forums since
1991, or maybe 1992. Back then, people agrued about what
was real "-jutsu" and what was "-do". Now, people argue
about what is real "aikijutsu" or "aikijujutsu" and what
is "jujutsu".

Let's take a different look. What is the first and thus
the only real jujutsu ryu? Takenouchi Ryu? Tenjin Shinyo
Ryu? Hontai Yoshin Ryu? All of them are jujutsu, and all
of them define jujutsu differently, just look at how it
is manifested in their techniques. There is no discussion
about what is real jujutsu, how it is defined, and who
has the rights to use this term. There is no problem with
Danzen Ryu using the term jujutsu when it is a combination
of traditional styles and (I believe) judo.

Now, what is the first and thus the only real ryu of
aikijujutsu, aikijutsu, or aiki no jutsu? Got me. These
terms describe principles and philosophies. An analogy
can also be drawn on denominations of Christianity. Who
wants to argue that they practice the only true form of
Christianity? Not me.

The principles of aiki and the use of the term exists in
many traditional ryu. Each ryu defines and uses aiki a
little differently, just as they do ju.

I am now getting off of my soapbox, and would hope that
others on the other side of the discussion would get of
of their own.

Michael Douglas

Nathan Scott
27th February 2001, 01:26
[Post deleted by user]

kusanku
8th March 2001, 01:51
Ki=literally 'air', metaphorically spirit, scientifically oxygen.:-)

Used in Japanese in a great variety of phrases for atttude or spirit or heart or guts.

Aiki=push when pulled and pull when pushed, according to either Takeda Tokimune or Kondo Katsuyuki, forget which.

Kiai: Push to the limit.

Think maybe everyone is making too big a deal of mysticizing pragmatic terminology?

Makes things tough when trying to learn an art if you don't understand its basic foundational concepts.

Met a lot of aiki folks that don't seem to know what is 'ki' or aiki.

Met karate folks that don't understand metsuke, kiai or kime.

And some that do.

Met judo people too, most seem to understand aiki as defined bymasters above, judo concept is also push when pulled and pull when pushed.

Understanding foundation priciples and concepts aids greatly in mastery of an art. I had personal demo of Aiki Budo from a sandan hailing from France, he didn't seem to be in the slightest doubt of what he was doing.

Neither was anyone else, let me tell you.:D

Regards,Kusanku

kusanku
12th March 2001, 07:29
Hi, Robert. Ki means literally 'air,same as Chinese Ch'i and Vietnamese Khong.

Now what the word is used for is , firstly that ingredient of air, which enables and imparts life.

Scientifically , as we today know, that element is oxygen.

Therefore, scientifically, the explanation of what ki really is, is oxygen.

But the ancient people didn't know of oxygen or of such concepts as different atoms combining to form molecules.They knew air was a gas or vapor,that with it you lived and without it you died, and that doing breathing could help ones health and strength.

Therefore, the concept of ki is today, scientifically not valid, unless we apply it to oxygen, which does enable greater strength and endurance as it pervades our system more efficiently through certain breathing and other aerobic excercises.

I trust I have now made my post and my meaning sufficiently clear. I note you take no exception whatever to my other definitions, that is good, because they are as given by the masters of aikijujutsu.

When people today ask me if I believe in Ch'igong, and what I believe about ch'i, I simply state ch'i equals oxygen, because if it doesn't, where and what else could it be, and chigong equals deep breathing and breath control excercise and training, even though they have the connotation of vital foce or life force and disciplne of the Life force, because the mystical sounding nonsense gets in the way of people's understanding of how to master certain things.

Same way many Aikidoists not only can't agree on ki, but on whether to use atemi in self defense.All I can say is they'd better.:-)

I was merely posting a clear definition, and a correct one, of Ki/ch'i, aiki, kiai, and a few other really mystical sounding concepts that can be easily explained.

At least in functional terms.

As far as points, they exist, ch'i meridians, may or may not, but empirically map areas of low impedance on or near the surface of the human body, and perhaps some functions of the parasympathetic nervous system.

Otherwise, what exactly, is ki?
An invisible element in the atmosphere that enables all to live, and which breathing excercises can enable us to use more efficiently? That's oxygen, man, a gas by the way.

And ki means what again?Gas or vapor?Oxygen is the gas in air that enables life to continue for people.

You have a nice day, now.:D

Kusanku

Nathan Scott
12th March 2001, 17:35
[Post deleted by user]

Michael Becker
12th March 2001, 18:48
My own instructor, who speaks and reads Mandarin and Cantonese gave an explaination for the Chinese character that represents Chi in one of his books. I know it is not Japanese but it may give a little insight.

"The character...represents rice being cooked in a pot and giving off vapour, so their is the concept of alchemical change so beloved of Taoists.

In fact Chi is many many different things.There is Chi all around us; the air is Chi. The oxygen that we extract from the air is Chi. The oxygen that is transported by haemoglobin which is delivered from the lungs to the tissues of the body is Chi.The carbon dioxide and methane gas discharged from the various orifices are also examples of Chi.

Vital Energy seems to be the best choice of translation, despite its limitations."

Dan Docherty
'Instant Tao: The Tai Chi Chuan Discourse and Canon'

I hope this is of some help

Hank Irwin
15th March 2001, 14:28
I think Mr. Becker hit it on the nail pretty good. I think (imo)Ch'i is highly mis-understood, on both sides of the fence. The study and practice of this phenomena is difficult enough without all the garbage about what it's grammatical definition is. As far as personalities go, I am not trying to over step my bounds guys either, Japanese exponents are the main source for deceit and mis-information. They look down on the Okinawan AND American people as being weak, lacking definition in our lives and BELOW them on the "cultural" ladder. I have had many encounters with Jap. KarateKa, and they act like if it wasn't for Japan, Okinawa would not be what it is today. Sooo many Jap. take credit for what many other nations have created. Look at Bonsai for instance, it has it's roots in Persia and China, but the Jap. feel it was in-complete until they got their hands on it. Maybe so, but the arrogance of it all. I see the same thing taking place here in this thread. This will cause nothing but discord and halt competent discussions. IMO if ANYone wants to know about Ch'i, they should seek out a Chinese practitioner or Okinawan Ko-ryuist or at least a teacher with lineage to said subject. None of my observations of Jap. Ki impressed me. None! But that doesn't mean there aren't any Jap. practitioners that don't know real Ch'i Gong either. The breathing techniques I have mostly seen from Jap. systems are of the ibuki type, the kind that will cause you artery problems and blood pressure problems. That is not Ch'i Gong. Many Ch'i Gong results aren't noticed until after years of training, properly. Many are just that, training. Many Ch'i Gong results are attained without your knowledge, in way of training. It's not mystical, it's hardass work. Bruised this and broke that sometimes as a result. Ch'i Gong is also using herbs. Certain herbs are critical in having, to restore vital energy that has been used up. Much to talk about regarding this. Don't you guys think?

Hank Irwin
15th March 2001, 15:27
Robert Sensei, would like to know more about the Ch'i info from Oyata Sensei's book for sure. Have had qiute a few tell me how good it is, but also that in some areas it gets kind of "mystical/metaphysical". Is this so from your observations too?

Michael Becker
15th March 2001, 19:51
Ah, I cannot take any credit for the definition of Chi. As I indicated, the translation was done by my teacher.

He spent 9 years living in Hong Kong, ( working in the Royal Hong Kong Police from 1975 to 1984 ), and has travelled to mainland China on numerous occasions.

Dan has put in an incredibly amount of effort into promoting his art and studying the Chinese language and culture. I cannot take any credit for his hard work.

Nathan Scott
15th March 2001, 23:01
[Post deleted by user]

kusanku
16th March 2001, 11:09
Returning to our original Thesis, What is real Aikijujutsu,we are confronted with the definitions of Aiki as 'push when pulled and pull when pushed ' given by Tokimune Takeda and Kondo Katsuyuki.

Then we have the definition of Jujutsu which is an art where strength can be used in applying strikes, kicks and jointlocks to an opponent as well as throws and pins.

Then we have the fact that in Daito Ryu and Aikibudo, there are three levels of technique, three arts within the art, so to speak, insofar as empty hand technique are concerned, all of which derive from the theories and practices of OnoHa Itto-Ryu swordsmanship.

The first level is Jujutsu.Well, there are many schools, many ryu or streams of jujutsu.At least two of these and maybe more, went into the making of the Daito Ryu Jujutsu.One, the oshikiuchi 'indoor techniques, ' forerunner of Udundi or palace Hand techniques of Okinawa among others.

These techniques required no sword because none were allowed in the palace, for most, and started with shikko, or knee walking, as this was the position one was most often in, in such a palace.

So the first part of the question, 'what is real aikijujutsu', can be answered in this manner.Real Aikijujutsu wil have a foundation of shikko, or knee walking training and all techniques can be done from either shikko or hanza handachi(half seated half standing).

Secondly, the primary technique taught in the primary two person kata of Daio ryu, the kata called Ikkyo, is in fact, ippon dori, which is a hanmi handachi waza using a concealed tanto to cut the throat of the attacker who strikes at you with a sword or other weapon as you are seated kneeling in seiza, becoming a one leg up kneeling position, and a block, lock and cut technique.

This technique comes from the second type of jujutsu used in Aikijujutsu,of which there is only one school.This technique comes from the Aizu Clan Samurai battlefield jujitsu.This at is distinguished by zanshin being defined as paying attention to your opponent until his throat is cut.

When you see this type technique and hear this type instruction, it is taken at least, from real Aikijujutsu.

Other points of this jujutsu are the use of the knees to hold the oppponent's down while freeing both hands to cut with swords or knifehands.

The second level of Daito ryu, is aikijujutsu of which the question was asked, how do we know what is real Aikijujutsu.

Well, , aikijujutsu is the same techniques of jujutsu done with aiki,that is in a more refined manner and using more of the opponent's movement and power against him.

It is also special and different techniques and strategies done using that combination of aiki and jujutsu, encompassing and including the jujusu techniques.

So that in aikijujutsu as distinct from pure jujutsu, one would pay attention to certain factors in addition to the technique, that would enable the technique to be performed more efficiently.

These might include the unbalancing, the particular locks ( or 'den') which render more effective the waza, and the motion of the opponent making ones waza more efficient, but still using some jujutsu principles and waza..

As for instance techniques where an opponent reaches for you and you intercept his fingertips with your palm and use his momentum to initiate a fingerbending lock and takedown and pin, but you still use the gyaku(reversal of joints ie bending against the natural direction of the joints) principle of jujutsu to effect the pin, albeit using part of the opponent's own movement to aid in this.

The the third level is pure aiki, this is where Aikido often attempts to do all their techniques depending on style. Yoshinkan and Tomiki however include large amounts of jujutsu as do some Aikikai.

Aiki, 'push when pulled and pull when pushed, uses almost entirely , with only a little help , to redirect, the oppponent's own momentum into a circuit of neutralization whereby the oppoent supplies the means to destroy himself.

Here we have locks where the opponent for instance, punches and the aiki stylist wil allow the punch to pass into the crook of the elbow as they turn and execute an idori or dancing step, dropping the opponent to the mat in a pin using mostly the opponent's power and momentum to accomplish ths.

It is extremely high level ability to be able to defend with this alone.

With knowledge of this art no longer entirely in- ryu, many can try to imitate it, so it is hard to know if you have never seen or more importantly felt the real thing, what real aikijujutsu is.

I can tell you three things about it from personal experience, as I had the fortune of having a semi private demonstration of Aikibudo , about thirteen years ago, with one Sandan from France.

1.It hurts.When they lock you, pain is.

2.It is not fuzzy, how they teach , or how techniques are done.It is extremely precise, and they teach particular footwork patterns to enable the effective use of the technique.

3.Atemi is very important in this art.Thus blocking the aemi, as well as evasion, is given great importance.As the individual said, 'If you take Ze Atemi, Ze Fight, It is Over.':-)

So he said that, in case of an atttack, there are three priorities, and the first is to evade if possible, the attack. Since the art comes from Japanese swordsmanship one can see the soundness of this as number one priority.

Next is to unbalance the opponent which takes away his strength and makes him miss his next attack.Even if you don't get to do the technique, at least evade the attack, and then you survive.If you unbalance, you stop a further attack, thus you survive longer. Finally, if then you apply the technique, you control and defeat the opponent.

First priority then in real aikijujutsu is to evade, avoid or block the attack in some way where you don't take the atemi and thus die.

This insures your survival.

Second priority is to off balance (kuzusu, to destroy the foundation)the attacker. If you do this, you have survived because here you may escape whle he is off balance.

Only third is the technique.Without the first.evading and or blocking, you die.Without the second, appplication of technique, particularly using Aiki, is impossible.With the first two, and only with them, is the third possible.

And that is real aikijujutsu.

To forestall some objections , when I say that there is only one school of Aikijujutsu,since several schools derive from the Daito ryu, exactly what I mean is that only the schools of and deriving from, the Daito Ryu of Sokaku Takeda, legitimately call themselves Aikijujutsu.

The other styles which derive from some of the arts that went into Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu and Aikibudo and so forth,are not legitimately called Aikijujutsu, and that is what I meant. They do however share common principles.

As to the actual historical connections between the ancient ryu of jujutsu, Oshikuchi, gotente/Udundi, and chin na, I leave that for the moment, to others, since much is and must of necesity remain, purest speculation there..

I trust that this has gone some ways towards answering the question, 'What is real Aikijujutsu?'

In fine, the Aikido systems that abound today all derive from the Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, and those which most closely resemble it, in training methods if not in form, such as the Yoshinkan,whose founder also had a certificate from Uyeshiba in Daito Ryu,have a somewhat different 'feel', a more precise and fixed manner of teaching, than what has sometimes happened to other forms of it.

Tomiki Kenji too, had a certificate in Daito Ryu from Uyeshiba as well as certificates in at least three styles of Jujitsu, and his rank in Judo.Thus his style too, partakes of similarities.

All three, are serious about atemi and unbalancing, and have training methods wherein ukes are not, to say the least, totally co-operative.Yoshinkan begins with cooperation but ends with resistance ,the highest level being to lock out an uncooperative opponent, and Tomiki Aikido has randori, two different types, and Daito Ryu, well, they really try to hit, the ukes do, and the defenders, apply the techniques shall we say, vigorously and with attention not details such as pressure and vital points,such that one could wish they didn't..:D

But they make their point so to speak.:-)
I have felt the techniques of all three, and find all three effective.But the Daito Ryu is by far, the most painful in practice, especially if the ashi waza or leg techniques are engaged, which add immeasurably to the pain factor in locks and takedown techniques and in pins.


Sincerely,
Kusanku,

Mark Jakabcsin
16th March 2001, 15:47
"Only third is the technique.Without the first.evading and or blocking, you die.Without the second, appplication of technique, particularly using Aiki, is impossible.With the first two, and only with them, is the third possible.

And that is real aikijujutsu."

Mr. Vengel,

You have done a nice job of bundling aikijujutsu into a priority package and I applaud your efforts. However, I believe aiki and Daito-ryu are much too large to fit in your box. Your post is long and would require an even longer post to discuss indepth so I will focus on only a few items.

Evade, unbalance and then apply technique is, I believe, the general gist of your comments. I am not sure that one can really seperate evade (I don't like that word but will discuss later) and unbalance from the technique, especially when discussing aiki no jutsu. The breaking of posture and then balance IS the technique in most instances. Unbalancing is frequently caused by evading (moving) and the two are generally one and the same.

The word evade conjures a picture, in me, of someone backing away or moving away from the attack and that is why I don't care for the word in this context. A large part of Daito-ryu is accomplished with entering which I suppose could be considered evading. Along the same lines, numerous aiki no jutsu techniques rely on adversarial response which causes the attacker to alter his intent/focus and foul his attack without making the aiki practiioner change position, i.e. I don't evade I make the attacker miss or stop his attack and still hold the same ground.

In the three step method you outline one becomes concerned with his enemy's attack first and foremost and to the exclusion of his own counter attack (see highlighted comments above). This I see as a problem. Daito-ryu deals with instant nulification of the attackers attack and an instant counter attack by tori. This is not two seperate steps in most cases, it is one and the same. Proper body position and execution of a technique ensures you remain safe and control your enemy.

I am sorry that I am running out of time just now and have to cut it short. Peace.

mark

Nathan Scott
16th March 2001, 19:02
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kusanku
17th March 2001, 00:08
Nathan San-
No, my experience in aikijujutsu is from the various seminars, and that of Aikido is from various seminars and practitioners with whom I have at one time or another trained.

My understanding of that art was everything I posted.

'Nice try.'

Well, that is what I figured. As to who that was my friend studied from in France,it may or may not have been the one you mention, but that certainly is an interesting letter from the Abashiri group.

'might be tooo restrictive.'

Yes, it might indeed, I hope to call forth someone with true expertise in the subject to correct all misconceptions, by posting everything I had on the subject, and that I had believed correct.

I have and claim, no rank or title whatsoever in Daito Ryu Aikibudo or aikijujutsu.

My interest in those arts is this:I am a long time practitioner of martial arts and a twenty nine year ractitioner of certain Okinawan styles of empty hand and weapos combat which may , far back, have some relation to the forerunner arts or similar arts, specifically jigen ryu,that preceded such things as aikijujutsu.

Also have interest in chin na,and while I am a lineage student of Taiji Quan, my interest in other Cinese arts is because of the Okinawan connection.

Therefore my keen interest in the Daito Ryu.

My post was, as you state, an attempt to summarize my own understanding of this art which necessarily is far from complete.

However I will happily watch the thread to see what other and different insights may appear here.

My intent in posting to this forum and on this thread was to restart what was a dead thread, and to evoke hopefully, much knowledge, that thereby we may all benefit.

And here I already have, from the letter you quoted.

Thank you very much.


Kusanku

Nathan Scott
17th March 2001, 00:21
[Post deleted by user]

kusanku
17th March 2001, 00:25
Mark- that was very interesting. Thank you.Points well made and well taken.

Are you with the NC Roppokai group?I've seen some websites of Roppokai in Finland, looke impressive. So did the Takumakai.I understand these are all legitimqate descent from takeda Sokaku.

Yes, by evade, I meant as with entering, tai sabaki, almost never back away.

I thank you for the clarigificaionn of the aiki no jutsu level. This is similar to the Okinawan Kempo waza which I do, and some of the Shorin ryu as well. The step in and sometimes around and in, is simultaneous with the technique. The priorities I listed were used to train the people in how to think about things first, as man were karateka who had been trained to just smack 'em.Doing that with a sword wielding oppoent would be deadly.

Nathan San- I don't know if Phillipe was with Floquet or not, but if all that guy had was ten days, I sure am impressed, he must have been skilled as well in Aikido or something.This was , yes, AikiBudo.

Apparently he also , whoever it was, taught weapons, ie jo, katana, etc.

The spirit evinced and the level of sill with which this person cranked us , mostly pretty skilled in other arts, around, was quite impressive.

Anyhow, I await further informaion on what is indeed becoming an informative thread and thank you for editing out the OT stuff to facilitate navigation.

I lurk on this forum quite a bit, wanted to see what is available.

Kusanku , aka

Hank Irwin
17th March 2001, 00:26
Does anyone know where the Takemura Aiki lineage came from and where it went to? I was told this was Ueashiba's style root? Can anybody elaborate?

Nathan Scott
17th March 2001, 00:37
[Post deleted by user]

kusanku
17th March 2001, 00:44
Nathan-
No, certainly no offense taken. Why would I take any at the truth?

I nderstand the reluctance of many to post on these forums, seniors in most styles don't.

Was Hopeing maybe one might do so, though.

Anyway, no, please continue on, my feelings are not do fragile. The unfortunate exchanges with another on here, and a couple other forums, were none of my desire.

And for which I apologize to all readers of the forums.

Hank, good to see you here( another Okinawan sylist.)I believe that's the Takeda lineae , Ueshiba's teacher was Sokaku takeda,founder of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu as now practiced.

Hank also pracices some Okinawan arts of similar lineage to mine, and which include so techniques possibly realted to Aikijujutu at some historical remove.

I should explain: Sokon Matsumura, the founder of Shorin ryu Karate,went to Japan as an envoy to one of the Okinawan Emperors, and while there was trained, it is said, in the Jigen Ryu martial arts, including swordsmanship and Palace hand.

It is possible that some of the ocking and striking in shorin descended syles came from this source, it is also possible that Okinawan Udundi came through Matsumura, or not.There do appear to be similarities in these arts, hough they are ctainly not identical by any mean, so far as I know or have yet seen.

Regards to all,
Kusanku

Hank Irwin
17th March 2001, 01:11
Thanks Nathansan, It probably is, I am vague on the pronunciation I think. Is there a Takemusu orTachimura system. Does anyone know of an "old school" aiki dojo here in Atlanta? Would very much like to experience a class. From what I have seen of Aiki(just a little), I have seen more, I guess, Aiki "type" techniques in my Okinawan Shorinji-ryu studies. All of the elements of (well maybe not all, I haven't seen 'em yet that's for damn sure) evasion, intercept and stike same time, using the big and small circle concepts, displacment of Ki,Ch'i, body knots, I have learned in Uchina Tode no Jutsu. Many applications I use I have seen in aiki!!! Many I have not. My system holds roots in Jigen-ryu also, by way of Hohan Soken, what I'm told, from Soken Kiyo. Don't know details, wish I did. Our first Jo kata is Rinai no Jo. There is a lot of big blank spaces when it comes to "pinning down" a lot of accurate history pretaining to this. Hopefully, soon, someone will shed some serious light on the matter. I have been interested in the Aiki Arts for some time and feel the compelling urge to seek a good Sensei out. The tuite jitsu I learned and much of the aiki locks I have seen and learned are very similar in nature. Would definetly like to dig a little deeper into Aiki studies.

kusanku
17th March 2001, 01:34
Have just become aware that Minoru Mochizuki's susem is called Yoseikan Aikibudo by some,though I think its name is Yoseikan Budo- wonder if that is where the confusion arose, that certainly would explain skill demonstrated by Mr. Floquet's( or Mochizuki's ) students.

hank, Atlanta ought to have at least some good Aikido schools.Yoshinkan is very accessible,with a really learnable eaching system.

Unfortunately the only listing I possess for a Yoshinkan Dojo anywhere near you is the Shuseikan in Jacksonville , Florida.
Phone 904-779-7767, Instructor Terrenyce Cooper, 4745 Dundee circle, Jacksonville, Fla,32210.

This may be out of date, as well.

When we had seminar, we had the members of the Shuwakan from Indianapolis come, he Chief Instrctor was godan, and had also been allowed to study Daito Ru a bit, in Japan. He said Daito Ryu and Yoshinkan are very different.

The Yoshinkan Dojo are all art of a non profit international foundation so that they arevery closely monitored as to standards from the Hombu dojo in Japan.

But they are very good at what they do.

John

kusanku
22nd March 2001, 09:07
Dawse Thread :D qappears to have once again, died out a Bit.

C'mon, youse guys, spit it out, whattaya got?

Real Aikijiujutsu, no phoney aikijiujutsu accepted.

Kusanku

Ben Reinhardt
22nd March 2001, 14:45
Mark wrote:
In the three step method you outline one becomes concerned with his enemy's attack first and foremost and to the exclusion of his own counter attack (see highlighted comments above). This I see as a problem. Daito-ryu deals with instant nulification of the attackers attack and an instant counter attack by tori. This is not two seperate steps in most cases, it is one and the same. Proper body position and execution of a technique ensures you remain safe and control your enemy.

I am sorry that I am running out of time just now and have to cut it short. Peace.

mark


++Ben R++
I think this is called "kobo itchi" (please pardon spelling) in Japanese. Offense and defense are the same....

Ben Reinhardt
Not an Aikijujutsu expert !