How soon does one need to go to Japan

[Joseph Svinth]

There seems to be a general consensus that everyone who does a Japanese martial art should go to Japan to train. So some questions:

1) At what point in one's training is it most advantageous to go on hajj? Instantly, there's nothing outside Japan worth visiting? Only after a decade or two of preparation and planning? Somewhere in between? (And are the martial arts done by someone who goes immediately to Japan, where he studies for a year before coming home, more real than those done by someone who never goes to Japan but trains diligently for 30 years?)

2) How long does one need to stay? A week? A month? A year? Why?

3) Does one take along one's non-Japanese spouse and children on these excursions? If yes, what kind of job do you have to afford the time off and the credit card bills? (And can you get me on?) If no, then how do you respond to your spouse's complaint that your putting training ahead of family is a bit selfish? (Parents, of course, might pay their adult children to go to Japan, thus getting that 35-year old layabout out of the house, but that is a separate issue.)

4) Finally,while one trip is nice, how valuable are return trips? Obviously if you study a rare koryu return visits would be extremely valuable, but if you trained in karate or Olympic judo then mightn't a trip to Amsterdam or Seoul be as valuable (and cheaper) than a trip to Japan?

[MarkF]

I can only think of one person from Jersey who has/is spending his life there (Donn Draeger notwithstanding) he is doing a koryu, though recent reports, if to be believed, have him doing judo now, as well. Of course, there is A. Tansely who has already spent a lifetime there, and he is judoka. The funny thing is, that I have done judo with more people who have done all their judo in Japan than I would If I really did go to the Kodokan, or one of about a thousand better schools of judo in Japan. Of course, going to the Kodokan would necessitate starting at shodan all over again, and I doubt I would last long enough to do that.

As someone who has frequently visited Japan on business during my career, I would warn those who expect to find and train in koryu during a short visit. As a judoka, it was a simple matter to find any number of judo clubs which welcomed me to practice. (It should be noted that a few small clubs refused to allow foreigners to practice, either for racist reasons or for fear of injury and communication problems.) I was even able to take up kendo practice fairly easily, although I should mention that my company sponsored the kendo club.

Despite my avid interest in koryu, I found it very difficult to locate and train with Japanese instructors. My visits tended to range from a few days to several months with an average of two to three weeks per trip. I usually made four to eight trips per year, depending on the length. Those few active koryu teachers I could find were reluctant to take on such a part-time student. While many were willing to demonstrate or even help me with certain techniques, it was more informal conversation than an actual teacher-student arrangement. On the other hand, many were xenophobic and refused to deal with any non-Japanese. More often, I found koryu instructors had retired from teaching due to a general lack of interest and students in their modern society.

Unless you plan to live in Japan for a year or more and have a job which allows time for martial arts practice, it is very unlikely to find a Japanese koryu teacher willing to accept one as a student. This is why I am always suspicious of those who claim koryu linage while training during infrequent visits to Japan. Although there are a fortunate few who have made such connections, it seems this is more the exception than the rule.

[Carl Long]

Ok Guys...so here's one for the 'ol controversy pot.
If you don't think you can go to Japan part time and study Koryu because the Japanese Koryu teacher won't take you as a serious student, then find a koryu teacher outside of Japan and train with him/her. Then you'll usually be more than welcome at the hombu dojo in Japan when you get there. And if being accepted into a Koryu in Japan is dependent upon being a student of a legitimate koryu teacher outside of Japan, you can always tell your prospective teacher that you plan on visiting Japan to train. If he or she balks at the idea then you probably are not studying with someone who is "legitimate" or has permission to represent the ryu. If on the other hand that instructor encourages you to make the future trip, chances are you've found the real deal. I have found Koryu teachers in Japan quite open and generous with instruction when it is sought by members of their ryu who are making a first time, second time or so forth visit to train in Meca. So don't let any of the talking heads tell you that if you don't spend years training in Japan that you can't study Koryu. ( Or maybe you're just studying with the wrong group!)If you study with someone who is a legitimate representative of the ryu then chances are you'll be welcome at hombu. So thats my Ni Sen Yen. Let 'em fly folks...

Carl

[Joseph Svinth]

Carl, you got an extra set of that Nomex underwear? My last set has seen better days.

Excellent points Carl. I didn't mean a person must to go to Japan to study koryu. I was just trying to put a perspective on how hard it can be even if you do go to Japan.

I am constantly amazed to hear of "U.S. Representatives" of various Japanese koryu who have only made a brief visit to Japan. I know of one case where an American attempted to represent an authentic koryu after only one day of training in Japan with the organization. In this case, he actually spent most of the training time in a chair because of an injury. Unfortunately, many students place their trust in these types of "koryu" instructors.

While I have visited several different koryu teachers and even practiced with a few, I have never represented myself as a koryu practitioner. My interests are primarily historical and not for practical reasons. I didn't mean to imply that Japanese styles are superior in any practical way to modern self-defense systems created by others. I just wonder why many these modern innovators feel the need to associate with legitimate koryu.

[Tetsutaka]

Originally posted by budokai
I didn't mean to imply that Japanese styles are superior in any practical way to modern self-defense systems created by others. I just wonder why many these modern innovators feel the need to associate with legitimate koryu.

1) reinforcing the foundation
2) continuing pursuit of martial knowledge (details)
3) understanding esoteric knowledge

Those are my reasons for pursuing the traditions.

[MarkF]

Don,
Would this person's name spell "Dor" in reverse?:D

[MarkF]

I swear when the waiter asked me what I wanted with my eggs, and I swear I ordered "re-hash browns:o

[Chuck Clark]

Mark F.,

Phil Relnick lived in Japan for over 35 years and just recently moved back to the US. He trained for many years at the Kodokan (he was 4th dan) and Waseda University. He was a student of Shimizu Takaji (past headmaster of the Shinto Muso-ryu) and is now Menkyo Kaiden. He also (and Nobuko, his wife, and Kentaro, his son) spent many years with Otake sensei in Narita doing Katori Shinto-ryu. Nobuko (and Phil) were training at the Ueshiba hombu dojo in the early 60's also. Phil was one of Donn Draeger's companions and kohai in these arts for many years.

There are quite a few people who spent their time in Japan and are back in the US now. Meik Skoss and Diane are just among the strongest presence on the forum boards. I don't understand your comment above about Meik's judo practice.

Posted by Mark Feigenbaum:
I can only think of one person from Jersey who has/is spending his life there (Donn Draeger notwithstanding) he is doing a koryu, though recent reports, if to be believed, have him doing judo now, as well.

I know that Meik IS practicing judo and I can't fathom why you would add such a remark to your post. The Skosses are my friends and such comments are insulting.

All of these people are very willing to share what they know with people who're serious about the training.


[Edited by Chuck Clark on 06-29-2000 at 12:54 PM]

[Diane Skoss]

Hi Joe,

1. My advice is to go to Japan after receiving shodan from an instructor with direct connections with Japan (this is usually easiest to do in gendai budo). Although you still have to prove yourself (and in my case, start over again at the beginning), it does make life a little easier. The instructors know you are serious, and will spend more time with you.

2. Length of stay depends on what you are after. If you're just going to "get the Japan experience" then a short visit (3 weeks-6 months) will suffice. If you are after koryu and haven't already begun training, then I'd say a minimum of a decade. If you are already doing koryu, then periodic visits of three-six weeks at the main dojo should suffice, as long as you are under the supervision of a qualified instructor back home (who also undertakes regular pilgrimages to Japan).

3. Most of the folks that I know who have managed long-term stays in Japan were young and not yet committed to a family when they arrived, or were a part of a pair both interested in learning more about Japanese culture. Short visits for younger people are more problematic due to the expense, etc. If one is a mature adult with a stable job and the right connections, I don't see why you can't go for a few weeks/months. Jobs in academia provide time off; enlightened employers are recognizing the value of personal time for employees. It may take some doing, but I honestly don't think it is impossible.

It helps to have an understanding spouse, of course, and there's no advice I can give on how to manage that. I just married someone more crazy about budo than I am.

4. For the modern arts/ways, I'd say return if you feel like it. If you enjoy yourself, make good friends, and learn useful things, then by all means go back, when you can. For most koryu, I'd say that regular return trips are essential to keep the connection with the headmaster/main dojo vital.

I do have a question for you, Joe: why do I feel as if there's a subtext here? The tone (at least the way I'm reading it) is challenging and a bit slighting of those of us who think, at least for koryu practitioners, time in Japan is essential. Your point appears to be that travel to Japan is often not a realistic goal. Okay, perhaps for those people who don't want it badly enough (and if they don't want it, then they probably don't need it)--but I am an average Jane Blow, without special privileges or talents, and I managed to do it. It is a matter of will, planning, committment, and determination. I would expect that these qualities are not particularly rare in serious budoka.

I don't have any problem with you having a different opinion, you are more than entitled to it, but the way you express it has undercurrents that I find unpleasant. If I am mistaken, then I do apologize--if not, what's up?

Carl Long wrote:


If you don't think you can go to Japan part time and study Koryu because the Japanese Koryu teacher won't take you as a serious student, then find a koryu teacher outside of Japan and train with him/her. Then you'll usually be more than welcome at the hombu dojo in Japan when you get there.

I agree with you one hundred percent--this is by far the best route for most folks. I do hope I'm not one of those "talking heads" :)! If so, then I haven't been communicating clearly, and I'll try to do better.

Finally, Mark, I gotta agree on the rehash. The only benefit I can see is if someone manages to clarify general misunderstandings.

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
There seems to be a general consensus that everyone who does a Japanese martial art should go to Japan to train. So some questions:

1) At what point in one's training is it most advantageous to go on hajj? Instantly, there's nothing outside Japan worth visiting? Only after a decade or two of preparation and planning? Somewhere in between? (And are the martial arts done by someone who goes immediately to Japan, where he studies for a year before coming home, more real than those done by someone who never goes to Japan but trains diligently for 30 years?)



Diane - Excuse me for interposing, but the format of Joe's questions reads to me like a "leading question" where the answer is implied by the phrasing of the question.

The above question juxtaposes 1 yr in Japan vs. 30 yrs outside. The implied answer is of course that 30 good yrs outside Japan must be better than or at the outside maybe as good as 1 yr in Japan, but never is it better than 30 years outside Japan. And why 30 years vs. 3 or 13? Because that enhances his implied argument that going to Japan serves little purpose.

Leading questions are used most typically by lawyers cross examining witnesses for the opposition. Hence that uncomfortable feeling you are getting of being "set up".

It is no surprise that Joe thinks going to Japan may not be useful, that is his position in other posts. A position I agree with for wide spread modern arts like shotokan karate or judo, and disagree with for koryu arts.

But - IMO - when starting a new thread, the person posing the question might consider stating more objective questions which leave the arguments for succeeding posts.

-M-


[Edited by Margaret Lo on 06-29-2000 at 11:15 AM]

[Diane Skoss]

Thanks, Margaret!

I must admit to usually being more intuitive than analytical, so every bit of help I can get, well, helps! I suppose that in budo terms setting up the enemy is a good idea (feint to make him think you are going for the straight thrust, then reverse it... or vice versa), but I don't like to think of anyone in cyberspace as an enemy (perhaps more or less right-minded, depending on the degree to which someone agrees with my position :) , but no more than that. A joke!!!! I use 'em so rarely that I sometimes must point them out. Dave Lowry will recall the one I made last January in the van--my brain is so leaky that I can't--it had to do with food, I think, but everyone present did lose it, mostly because it was so unusual and was actually funny.)

Do you think we should start talking about food? I want to get you and John Mark together, each at your own personal favorite Chinese restaurant, sometime in the fairly near future! Yum!

[Margaret Lo]

Diane - hmm food is a great idea. There is a great little place near me. Must discuss off board or else break Earl's heart.

-M-

[Earl Hartman]

Just thought I'd jump in here.

Margaret's post contrasting the widespread gendai arts with the more rare koryu arts is, as usual, very perceptive. Arts like judo, kendo, karate, and aikido are now very well entrenched here in the US, and while there are always going to be mediocre teachers and/or outright frauds in anything, the chances of finding a good teacher in these arts in the US is good and getting better. The same is simply not true of the koryu arts (yet) or the less well known gendai arts such as kyudo. Kyudo is in its infancy here in the US, and the plain fact of the matter is that the top people here in the US simply do not measure up to even the middle of the pack in Japan. However, this is case by case: if a person were to ask me if it is better to study kyudo in Japan at the local city-run gym where the teacher is maybe a 5th dan Renshi or go study with Dan DeProspero in North Carolina, I'd tell him to go study with Dan.

Modern arts are often large bureaucratic organizations with literally thousands of members. Since they are widespread in Japanese society and thus more accessible, they are more available to the casually interested foreigner. Consequently, the kind of introductions needed in a more traditional setting are, perhaps, not quite so necessary. However, I would not have been able to train with the police without the introduction of a well-known and high ranking police instructor (little did I know what I was getting into when I asked him for advice on how to practice kendo in Japan; before I knew it, I had been thrown to the wolves and had no way to extricate myself without shaming both him and myself).

In my limited experience with koryu, introductions and personal relationships are vital. Without them, nothing can be accomplished. Koryu groups, being small, are run entirely (so far as I can tell so far) on personal relationships. Personal relationships, being, well, personal, are by definition idiosyncratic and quirky. There is no way to answer the question "how is it done in koryu"? except in generalities. Every ryu is bound to be different. All I can say is that in my experience I have been more than well treated, and I do my best to repay sincerity with sincerity. Indeed, it is precisely this personal relationship with the teacher and the other members of the group that I find so appealing. I will say, however, that this is not only a feature of the koryu. It was the same with the police. However, while the nature of the koryu enforces this tendency, it is just a feature of the society. Some people find this appealing, others may not.

Amnericans often seem to approach training in anything as primarily a process of gaining information for personal benefit and they thus see the teacher and/or the other members of the group as a means to that end. I do not think that this is necessarily bad, and this of course must be a feature of any kind of study. However, if this feeling is predominant, a personal relationship with a teacher, and all that it involves, cannot be established. The one main thing about training in Japan in anything is that this attitude is considered to be selfish and training is designed to disabuse people of this notion. My kyudo teacher liked to say "tsukushite motomezu", "give everything and expect nothing". This is a fundamental feature of the Japanese attitude to just about everything, budo training in particular, and this is one thing that I have not really felt too much in my budo training in the US outside of the limited koryu circles in which I travel.

In any case, this is still an matter of how important the "Japaneseness" of the art is felt to be. If one feels it is not too important, then don't bother to go to Japan. If you feel that it is, you have to go to Japan or train with someone who has been there. Regardless of which path you choose, you will always meet people who disagree with you.

Earl

[Earl Hartman]

Oh yeah, I forgot: Based on my own experience, if you want to go to Japan to train, it helps to be young, unattached, adventurous, and somewhat dense. The ability to sleep anywhere and to subsist on practically nothing also helps, as does a thick skin, the thicker the better. Sensitive types do not fare too well there.

Earl

[Joseph Svinth]

Forgive the posting's confrontational tone, but in my defense I will note that I made it after reading some of the arguments in koryu in which people had said in almost so many words that if one did not go to Japan, one could never be much good. Nobody said there that going to Japan applied only to certain styles; indeed, several people insisted it applied even to judo. So, taking this one step further, the logical conclusion is that training outside Japan is a waste of one's time, no matter how many Olympic medals the instructor or the school has.

And even if that is taking things too far, note that I was being deadly serious when I called the trip a pilgrimage, for I am assuming this is being done with sincere motivations rather than "I want to buy rank so I can be a wheel in the local association, and need some Japanese guy to autograph the certificate."

Now in this thread people are saying that the stricture "Go to Japan" applies most strongly to practitioners of arts such as battodo-jutsu and kyudo. As these arts have only recently taken root outside Japan, this strikes me as eminently reasonable.

Now, with that said, I will argue that, at least using the gendai filters through which I process all information, going to Japan represents just one possible hajj. The reason is that there are multiple cultures and subcultures within the gendai MA communities, and failing to recognize this is an error. For example, Brazilian, British, Dutch, Korean, and Nisei judo are each subtlely different from Japanese. Likewise, Uchinanchu karate is quite different from Tokyo karate, and Dutch karate is something else again. Not wrong. Not right. Just different. Yet each represents a very legitimate martial pursuit.

Assuming this assertion to be plausible, then perhaps students interested in pursuing their roots should take a pilgrimage that takes them wherever their own teachers began. If this means Japan, great. But if your teacher was Nisei, then a trip to roots might require a visit to Manzanar, or if an Air Force judoka, then an enlistment in some branch of the service.

The question is then not just one of *when* one goes on hajj, but also where, and with whom, and for what purpose. Perhaps the Holy Land for many people is Japan, but I suspect that for many others that is not where they truly need, want, or desire to go. And stating otherwise risks doing a well-intentioned disservice to well-intentioned people.

To change the subject a bit, the advice "go as a shodan" strikes me as somewhat problematical. After all, in some schools, shodan takes about a decade to achieve whereas in others it takes about a year. (Nobody is buying the rank in either place, the instructors and associations just have different standards and expectations.) As a result, I personally believe that Earl's advice to go while you're still young and unencumbered is excellent. (If so, the training is less hajj than rite of passage, but that is no less valid a reason for undertaking it.)

[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 06-29-2000 at 11:31 PM]

[Margaret Lo]

"there are multiple cultures and subcultures within the gendai MA communities"

In shotokan karate, the best and most spectacular tournament fighers are South Americans who have developed a rhythmic, elegant style of movement quite distinguishable from that of the Japanese.

In Japan fighters use timing and rhythm which owes a great deal to kendo while the South Americans have moved more towards sport.

-M-

[Earl Hartman]

Margaret:

In kendo, too, you can always tell a Japanese-trained fighter from one who hasn't trained there. I don't know about karate, but leaving aside the lower ranks for a moment, in kendo, the Japanese trained guys almost always win. Personally, I think this has a lot to do not only with the time people put in (LOTS more in Japan, usually) but also with the fact that, as I have stated in ther posts, there is nowhere near the degree of body contact in US kendo that there is in Japan.

Re different national styles, I was really shocked when, fencing with a Korean guy for the first time here in the US, he tried to hit me in the head WHILE JUMPING UP IN THE AIR. Maybe it's a Tae Kwon Do thing or something, but it was the first time I had ever experienced an aerial kendo attack. It didn't work because the guy had no control (all sound and fury, signifying nothing) but it was funny anyway. The instructor (Japanese) lectured him later on how he should stick to practicing his basics (the guy was young, fast, and strong, but was all over the map) and I don't think he liked it too much.

Earl

[Joseph Svinth]

Earl -- In karate, the Europeans have dominated both WUKO and full-contact since the 1980s. Japanese-trained karateka also generally fare poorly during contests against Thai boxers.

Meanwhile, in international judo competition the South Koreans probably have the strongest lightweight men while the Dutch, French, and Russians probably have the strongest heavyweight men. Women's judo is more spread out, but current strongholds include Europe, Brazil, and Israel.

Full-contact champions are also typically Americans (Gracies, Shamrocks) or European (Dick Vrij).

[MarkF]

Chuck,
Why and how did you get the idea I was in any way denigrating Meik Skoss? My only point (besides a bad attempt at humor) was that there are few who do the "pilgrimage" to Japan, and yes, I was referrig to Meik. It seems we are butting heads lately, and I do not understand it. I know about Relnick and I do know many who got most of their training there. The comment about Meik playing judo came from the koryu threads, as someone had said that. If my comment concerning Meik is an "insult" of some kind, it is beyond me. Besides, at the moment, he came to mind, that's all. I received an invitation to train at the Kodokan in 1967, but could not go, money being the main reason, and now, to go for any length of time is not something I wish to do. Others can verify that it was something I had even planned early this year, but again, obligations here were more important at this time. As to what Joe said of going where your teacher was, makes sense, although I would not join the military looking for judo training. Again, as I have had to do, lately, I apologise for the misunderstanding. Accordingly, I will refrain from posting anything concerning Koryu or Japan, period.

[Margaret Lo]

Mark - surely misunderstandings should not deterr you from posting? Afterall, misunderstandings happen during any conversation.

Earl - in shotokan karate, the winning fighters are often non-Japanese these days. The British have done very well as Keinosuke Enoeda has trained a corp of very good fighters who use kicks and punches very well.

I think to some extent, the influence of kendo has hampered the Japanese, who do not use the full repertoire of weapons available to karateka and instead concentrate too much on one reverse punch.

-M-

[Diane Skoss]

Mark,

Margaret's right. We all can improve our written communications skills--and I think Chuck was reacting to something you truly didn't intend. I know a lot of people view this sort of communication as equivalent to chat, but functionally it really is written. In written English, full sentences, decent spelling, paragraphs, and basic organization are usually required to accurately convey meaning (hey, and I know I'm guilty of sloppiness too!). At any rate, Meik was/is in no way offended.

For the record, he does practice judo (so you can make that a statment in future--I was the one who posted the info); I believe he did his initial judo training in the late sixties (early seventies??? I'm not sure and he's at the dojo right now, so I can't ask). So he's really returning to an art that he has always admired and enjoyed. I trained for two years in Tokyo, myself, fyi, and will probably do more in the future. Just because we're koryu "snobs" doesn't mean we don't enjoy gendai budo! :)

So please don't worry any further, and please do continue to post.

Cheers!

[Margaret Lo]

Hmm - Judo. Where in Jersey is there good judo? Diane? Mark? I think you mentioned once a place in Cranbury, NJ?

[Diane Skoss]

Depends on what you are after, but for good no-nonsense budo judo, South Mountain Martial Arts in Madison is the way to go. For competitive judo, Yonezuka Sensei's dojo in Cranford can't be beat. He's a national coach and is quite sucessful with his judo athletes.

[Chuck Clark]

Mark,

I found it uncalled for and insulting that you'd seen the statement that Meik was training in judo (which Diane had posted) and then add the "if that's to be believed" remark in your post.

As I am often guilty of inserting foot in mouth, I can understand how this sort of thing can happen. I was just sharing how I felt about your post. Now that you've made it clear that's not what you meant (and I do know that if you had meant it, you'd not change your mind!) I'm sure all's back to "normal."

I do detect an undercurrent of strong feelings in some posts from certain individuals that I find distasteful because it seems that no one posting here (other than the obvious trouble makers) has earned it. Diane's right that this cyber communication is difficult at best. I think we all should try to do our best to be very accurate in conveying our intent. I have no doubt that if we were all in the same dojo there'd be no problems in understanding each other.

Thanks for listening.

Regards,

[Doug Daulton]

Hello everyone,

One quick off topic point and then I'll jump back ... I think Diane hit the nail on the head when she said that forums are not like chat.

In chat, we have the opportunity to ask for and receive immediate clarification. Forums on the other hand are much like letters or e-mail and require a more directed, considered written response, lest we end up misunderstanding a point, fuming over it and firing off a hasty reply.

The onus for good communication, written or other, always lies on both parties. As posters, we need to take a bit more time writing clearly (if not concisely:D) as Diane suggests. When replying, it would probably help if we give one another the benefit of the doubt (unless the other party is a known pot-stirrer) and seek clarification before condemnation.

That said ... don't feel too bad Chuck, I've had a couple heaping helpings of shoe leather myself over the last few weeks! :D

OK - back to the topic ... When to go to Japan.

I had three opportunities to go to Okinawa before I actually made the trip. At 16, I had an invitation to go with a larger group, but in my youthful foolishness decided I'd rather not work the extra hours that summer to pay for the trip.

>>stands up and kicks himself<<

At 22, I had another opportunity to go ... but now making $15k a year (1991) as a social worker, I could not see taking on a second job to pay for the trip.

>>stands up and kicks himself again<<

In 1995, I had a saved the cash and scheduled off five weeks to visit Okinawa and train. Three weeks before I was to leave, those idiot GIs raped that poor 12 y.o. Okinawan girl and the protests/riots started in earnest. My teacher called to say I should not come because at the least, it would be an unpleasant trip for an American and at the worst, it might be dangerous.

Finally, I got to go for six weeks in the spring of 1999. I was able to train jo with friends in Tokyo, attend the International Budo Culture seminar in Katsura, train karatedo and Ryukyu Kobudo in Okinawa and visit the cave in Kumamoto where Musashi allegedly wrote Go Rin no Sho.

I am still paying off that trip ... but it was worth every yen. And I plan to return ... perhaps to live and study a while, but at least to visit and train.

I guess my point is ... don't wait .. go. Don't ask "Should I?" The answer is simple. "Yes. At least once." It is an experience, I sincerely doubt you'll regret.

Sincerely,

Doug Daulton

[MarkF]

OK, Chuck, I give. I said that because it was stated by another person who said it with a question mark, implying Meik was playing judo. Why shouldn't I believe it? I have got to watch those little tag lines which seems to get people in such a tizzy, including myself. I did not mean anything about it, whatsoever. I think sometimes the written word, which lacks intent, even with "gremlins" are taken the wrong way. I have never said anything which denigrates Meik or Diane Skoss on this board, not ever, at the very least with intent. Please, Please, take this to email first before it grows? Ms. Skoss did so why is this so difficult?

Anyway, again, I apologize, as the rumors of me being beaten to death have been greatly over-exagerrated. I don't know the man personally, so what possibly could be my motive? Please allow me to reiterrate: I do not know Meik Skoss personally. As most of you do, I know him through what he has said, written, and what he said on an upcoming television show. That is it. Period. OK. Most haven't seen the show, but as Joe S. has posted around, it is upcoming on July 7, 2000 at, I believe, 9:00pm, and repeated at 12:00am. It is about two hours in length, and yes, Meik Skoss is in it. I give.

[FastEd]

Originally posted by Margaret Lo

I think to some extent, the influence of kendo has hampered the Japanese, who do not use the full repertoire of weapons available to karateka and instead concentrate too much on one reverse punch.

-M-

I'm just curious, could you explain a little about how you feel the influence of kendo has effected Japanese karateka?

Thanks,
Ed Chart

[FastEd]

Originally posted by FastEd


I'm just curious, could you explain a little about how you feel the influence of kendo has effected Japanese karateka?

Thanks,
Ed Chart

Hmm.. well I guess that should read "could you explain in more detail.."

Are you suggesting that kendo has retarded the flexibility..or diversity of karateka attacks..?

ed chart

[Joseph Svinth]

If you read my article on boxer Piston Horiguchi and Graham Noble's article about karateka Choki Motobu at JCbtSport at http://ejmas.com , I think you will get some insight into how kendo has affected karate.

If truly interested, there is also information on the culture of Imperial Japanese boxing in my article on Korean boxers 1926-1945 published by the Korean American Historical Society in "Occasional Papers." You can order copies through their website http://www.kahs.org . I mention this because after Piston Horiguchi got punchy from taking too many blows to the head, rather than retire him his trainers sent him to a kendo dojo to recover his Yamato damashii. Once his fighting spirit was discovered to lost, of course his handlers simply discarded him.

[Enfield]

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
If you read my article on boxer Piston Horiguchi and Graham Noble's article about karateka Choki Motobu at JCbtSport at http://ejmas.com , I think you will get some insight into how kendo has affected karate.

I read both these articles and don't see anything like that. Are you sure these are the articles?

[Joseph Svinth]

If the answers aren't immediately obvious, then that means that we need a detailed technical discussion. And that means some enormous thread drift. Maybe start a new thread down in gendai?

But, a very cursory glance at the topic. Before WWII, Japanese boxers used to train very much like kendoka. That is, the emphasis was on Yamato damashii, attack rather than defense, one good punch (generally a wild right swing) rather than combinations of fairly straight punches, etc.

Now, this doesn't sound much different from kendo if you do kendo today, but back in the 1930s they didn't allow the tag-style kendo with rapid movement you see today. Instead you stood your ground and simply continued attacking until someone was judged the loser. In swordsmanship the weapon causes the end to come fairly quickly, but of course in boxing the fight can go on all night.

Interestingly, because modern Japanese boxers (and kendoka) back up like Ali or Tunney, work for wins on points rather than insisting on treating the fans to knockouts, and use combinations rather than attempting to end it all with a single technique, they are generally viewed as lacking the fighting spirit of their pre-WWII predecessors. Nevertheless the postwar Japanese boxers are technically far superior fighters. After all, fists are not swords and should not be used as if they were.

There is more to it than this, of course, but as I said, the thread drift is enormous.



[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 07-14-2000 at 01:40 AM]

[FastEd]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
[B]If you read my article on boxer Piston Horiguchi and Graham Noble's article about karateka Choki Motobu at JCbtSport at http://ejmas.com , I think you will get some insight into how kendo has affected karate.

Thanks, I'll check it out..

ed chart