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Henry
30th November 2008, 01:09
Hi everyone!

I'm new in these lands, and I come with a question. The rest I will bring up later, but what I have been pondering over recently is that in my (Kase Shotokan) version of Bassai Dai and Sho we begin with a slight forwards falling motion before stepping in to execute the double block, and I don't understand this temporary surrender of control.
Neither of my Sensei can explain it, so I wonder do any here have any insights regarding this?
Do other styles start their Bassai in this way?

Cheers
Henry Bellinger
Leicester, England

Dawndelion
30th November 2008, 01:44
Hi Henry -

The bassai I learned involves a very high kick, exploding into the move, then the falling forward and then the double block. I don't know why other schools of thought have minimized that first move. Bassai Dai is Storming the Fortress. It is a big, bold, powerful kata. How can you storm a fortress with that goofy little bastardized hippity hop at the beginning? It is a wimpy move and does not match the spirit of the kata, IMO.

I got yelled at and frustrated the hell out of one of the senseis at Karate Camp because I kept doing that big first move, as I was taught by my sensei, who was taught by his sensei, who is the creator of the karate camp. "JKA doesn't do it that way!!" the sensei screeched. I told him I am not a member of the JKA. Whatever.

I think the surrender of control has more to do with sensei not being able to raise his leg that high in old age or wanting to make the move more unique to his 'organization' when it split than it does to any more esoteric "martial" explanation.

Simon Keegan
30th November 2008, 09:16
Here's one interpretation, it's difficult to explain in words:

The opponent has hold of your right wrist with both hands (like he might hold a sword, for the purposes of visualising). With your left hand you come over the top and cup your right fist with your left hand. With one hand cupping the other you sharply pull both of your hands away towards your left ear (the strength in your two arms will be more than enough to break the grip at the point of his thumbs). At that very instant you use your body to bump him forcefully with your body as you bring your augmented backfist down on the bridge of his nose.

Here's another interpretation:

Instead of thinking of the technique that your describe as "penetrating his fortress" and thinking of it as using the most powerful technique possible, think of it as setting up the next move.

The next move (in Shotokan) is to turn 180 degrees to the left and execute a left Uchi Ude Uke.

Think of your opening move's finishing point (your left palm against your right forearm and your legs in cross stance) as the beginning of a throw. Your clenched right hand has a fist full of cloth (ie you've grabbed his lapel) and likewise your left hand. Alternatively your right hand is behind his shoulder.

Therefore this technique:

http://www.theshotokanway.com/images/images4/Bassai%20Dai.JPG

Has this application:

http://www.nycjujitsu.org/images/ipponSeionage.gif

As your turn to deliver the Uchi Ude Uke, that's the throw.

As an aside, I wouldn't dwell too much on the translation "to penetrate a fortress" since examination of the kanji reveals this is mostly likely not the best translation of the name.

Here's something I've stolen from another forum:

Bassai - 抜塞
抜 (ON: BATSU, HATSU): Slip out; extract; pull out; pilfer; quote; remove; omit [E]. Uproot, pull out [U].
塞 (ON: SOKU, SAI): Close; shut; cover; block; obstruct [E]. Stop up, block, seal, cork; pass, frontier; fortress [U].

Best wishes
Simon

Henry
1st December 2008, 15:29
Good to hear your thoughts on this people.
Simon's first piece of bunkai is described is as I practice it except that I also drive the right knee into the groin or stomach during the break, but what I'm puzzled by is the fact that my sensei and these [Enoeda (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EnszkHdatIs)] [Kanazawa (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=F8I4Q-nNvAY&feature=related)] videos show a slight falling motion before the wrenching of the hands (also seen at the start of Bassai Sho). Apart from that move I think it's quite dynamic and powerful even without a Jodan kick.

I'm interested in who does this and who does not, thought my main interest lies in the why. Dawn has a good point, there are sensei who change techniques not to improve them, but to acommodate their own limitations. Might I ask what lineage you follow Dawn? I have never seen it done as you decribe.

If anyone else practices a short uncontrolled falling motion before any other move in the kata, do you know why it was taught to you that way? The best explanation I can conjure is feigning compliance with your attacker to take them off guard before you escape them and smash their face in :D, but I look for other ideas, especially those passed down by the masters.

Dawndelion
1st December 2008, 17:03
Hi Henry -

I practice Shotokan as taught by Gichin Funakoshi. Sensei Teruyuki Okazaki taught my sensei the kata with the jodan kick as opener some 45 years ago. I've often wanted to ask Sensei Okazaki why he changed that move but even my sensei doesn't know and he trained with him for decades.

After searching youtube for a demonstration of the jodan kick in Bassai Dai I see that virtually no one is doing it that way these days. Except our weird little dojo. :laugh:

Cheers,
Dawn

Andrew S
1st December 2008, 20:57
I've heard that the Shotokan versions of kata contain "implied" kicks - Kanazawa's mawashigeri in Empi, for example. My own sensei told me that the sagi-ashi-dachi in Jitte implied a kick or stamping movement.
You can see this in in the Shito Ryu version of Bassai Dai - where the Shotokan version has that big yokogeri kekomi, the Shito Ryu version just raises the knee and steps down again.

As for the opening movement of the Shotokan Bassai Dai, I think the "fall" is to confuse your opponent - an apparent loss of control, a slight falling motion and then a sudden acceleration, closing the ma-ai and culminating in a strike.

Of course, I would love to be able to ask the originator of this style of movement what he had in mind. Anyone got that time machine working yet?

Timothy.G.B.
1st December 2008, 21:44
Do you have any video of the "fall" that you are talking about in Bassai?

Best,
Tim

Henry
2nd December 2008, 00:46
It's easy to miss but it's at the beginning of both these movies.

... these [Enoeda (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EnszkHdatIs)] [Kanazawa (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=F8I4Q-nNvAY&feature=related)] videos show a slight falling motion ...
I like your suggestion Andrew. Don't know why I thought that kind of detail would actually be passed down from on high.

Timothy.G.B.
2nd December 2008, 03:30
It's easy to miss but it's at the beginning of both these movies.

I like your suggestion Andrew. Don't know why I thought that kind of detail would actually be passed down from on high.

Thanks for the link to the video. Maybe the "fall" is simply the person trying to get their forward momentum going from the position of standing up with both feet together. Kind of like how we "fall" forward when we walk and catch ourselves with our other foot.

We use our hips to step out into the beginning move of Passai (as we call it) and try not to "fall" into any technique. "Falling" goes against the way we look at fighting.

Different strokes...

Best,
Tim

Todd Lambert
2nd December 2008, 09:17
I think this is a good example of what Tim is talking about.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-wyvse0FWxE

Timothy.G.B.
2nd December 2008, 17:11
Hi Todd:

Yes, that would be a very good example ;)

Best,
Tim

Simon Keegan
2nd December 2008, 22:12
Henry also mentions (which I only just noticed) that his style is Kase Shotokan.

Kanazawa Hirokazu and Enoeda Keinosuke were mostly taught by Nakayama Masatoshi, while Kase Taiji was mostly taught by Funakoshi Gigo. This could also explain the differences.

Henry
3rd December 2008, 19:01
Though I've never seen Kase perform either Bassai kata, as far as I know he practiced it the same as Enoeda and Kanazawa, the fall is there in their videos exactly as I practice it. In fact do recall (correctly? not sure) that my Sensei was graded to shodan by Enoeda. It may be there that we picked it up.

Timothy.G.B.
4th December 2008, 17:58
Is it possible that this "fall" at the beginning of the kata is poor technique?

I try to be open to the fact that high ranking teachers were all, at one point, students like ourselves. I have bad techniques that I do to be sure and I would hope that my students wouldn't look at it and assume my poor technique is an intentional "move". I also know that there are teachers who make stuff up when they don't know something so that they can maintain their status in the minds of their students.

The reason I am asking is that the "fall" makes no sense to me from a purely fighting theory standpoint. For example, if I fall into an opponent and they move from where they are standing, how do I correct the direction in which I am falling so as to not end up in a vulnerable position? It's like jumping towards an opponent and having them take my feet out from under me.

Perhaps someone can make sense for me of how "falling" into an opponent might be a "safe" move under certain circumstances.

Respectfully,
Tim

shoshinkan
4th December 2008, 23:14
the fall (or in our system a step in Passai I interpret as being pulled off balance, then the step(or fall) to regain balance and then follow (or force through) makes some sense.

Im finding alot of good application stems from us not being as in control as we would like, as in real life when stuff happens that surprises us - this also works niceley when considering common methods of assault, and also situational self defence.

One very senior Okinawan styled karateka I know talks alot about not being in balance all the time as being real application of karate skills, and for the most part I totally agree.

Dawndelion
4th December 2008, 23:20
I thinks it's just explained as more of a "fall" than a "hop" but when done with the jodan kick it's a stomp. Land hard on the right foot and then the left foot crosses behind. So you let your momentum carry you foward instead of trying to jump the move. (Besides, if you jump that particular move, it looks like ballet, all the power is lost and you get your ass beat in return). :D

Come to think of it, if everyone would just defy their sensei and do the jodan kick (except me because he WANTS me to do it that way) we wouldn't be having this discussion. What could be simpler? Problem solved. :p

Timothy.G.B.
5th December 2008, 00:27
the fall (or in our system a step in Passai I interpret as being pulled off balance, then the step(or fall) to regain balance and then follow (or force through) makes some sense.

Im finding alot of good application stems from us not being as in control as we would like, as in real life when stuff happens that surprises us - this also works niceley when considering common methods of assault, and also situational self defence.

One very senior Okinawan styled karateka I know talks alot about not being in balance all the time as being real application of karate skills, and for the most part I totally agree.


Thanks Jim - That makes sense to me.

When we train, we tend think about it this way...you should be able to do the technique off-balance, on balance, losing balance etc., but you shouldn't need to be off balance in order to do the technique.

I hope that makes sense!

Best,
Tim

Andrew S
5th December 2008, 13:28
I like your suggestion Andrew.
The one about looking for hidden kicks, the one about faking a lack of control, the one about looking at other styles' versions of the kata, or the one about the time machine?

Incidentally, a "fall" could be a response to being grabbed and pulled - by not resisting, we catch the attacker by surprise, close the gap and land the knee into the groin...

We need that time machine to find out from Oyadomari, Matsumura, Matsumora, Itosu and the Funakoshis what they were thinking at the time.

Timothy.G.B.
5th December 2008, 20:16
Is there anyone else out there willing to entertain the idea that the "fall" is poor technique, misunderstanding, faulty thinking?

A bit of thread drift here, but I think it is amazing how very smart people will try to convince themselves that something which they can't figure out really does make sense because some high ranking teacher says it makes sense.

I appreciate the suggestions regarding the interpretations of the "fall". Many of them make sense to me (e.g. being pulled etc., training to be execute a technique off balance). But what if the person teaching the fall is just missing some critical piece of information?

A bit of context may help; years and years ago, I was that person who took their teacher's word for why seemingly senseless kata moves actually did make sense. I felt embarrassed and angry once I realized that the moves really didn't make any sense and the teacher was misinformed, especially after finding someone who could demonstrate the proper use of the move that made sense regardless of what angle you looked at it from.

I just haven't heard from anyone else who thinks maybe, just maybe, the "fall" is a lack of understanding on the teacher's part.

Best,
Tim

shoshinkan
5th December 2008, 22:38
Tim,

I think I may not be following you on this one.................my bad.

Im not suggesting that 'falling' or being off balance is a good thing, it generally isn't - my karate is just accepting that this does happen, 'ideal world application' has little to do with the reality of violence.

However just to muddy the water a little, falling ie not being in control of your weight (for this example) does deliver some posatives in terms of power delivery and shock, an example is when you have an arm bar on, drop the weight in a free manner - then take the damaged arm to emergency, after removing the opponents head from the floor.

wild movements really do have function, however they are not the goal of refined training, sometimes I think many of us forget this as our art forms often demand certain formalities of posture.

Just posting to promote some conversation.

Timothy.G.B.
5th December 2008, 23:02
Hi Jim:

Thanks for your reply. I think we are on the same page here. I also see applications of falling like the one's you have described. I was trying to keep my comments really focused on the first move in Passai; again, my bias is that the "fall" doesn't make sense from my perspective.

We simply step into the move and don't "fall" with our weight leaning forward. I think there are probably a hundred different ways to justify the fall in the first move. My bias is, based on what I have been taught in my school of shorin, that there is no "fall" at the beginning of Passai, just a step into a technique.

I guess we are really stuck with whose"interpretation is the "right" one, which we all know is a zero-sum game with no winners :(

Thanks for the conversation,
Tim

shoshinkan
6th December 2008, 09:54
understood Tim,

on topic - we step not fall into the first movement of Passai kata, getting really gritty the step could be said to stop our fall..........LOL

TimoS
6th December 2008, 13:50
Perhaps someone can make sense for me of how "falling" into an opponent might be a "safe" move under certain circumstances.


Well, it kind of depends. I see the value of it in one sequence in Gojushiho, but don't know about others

bassai
7th December 2008, 11:52
It's not falling forwards , but driving in to assist the uraken strike , least that's how we teach it.

dsomers
7th December 2008, 15:21
Tim,

This might be a weird question, & hopefully doesnt throw off the disscussion, but when Onaga Michiko Sensei comes out to the stage, what does she do? It looks like she's squating in Heiko Dachi. But, then again I have dial up, so the footage might be skipping, or something. Is she performing Rei from a Heiko Dach, rather then Musubi Dachi? I dont thin I've ever seen an Okinawan stylist perform Rei from Heiko Dachi before. I've seen Kyokushin, & some Iai/Batto Do stylist's do it, but never any Okinawan stylists.

David

shoshinkan
7th December 2008, 16:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wyvse0FWxE

amazing that this is avalaible on youtube!

Timothy.G.B.
8th December 2008, 17:29
Tim,

This might be a weird question, & hopefully doesnt throw off the disscussion, but when Onaga Michiko Sensei comes out to the stage, what does she do? It looks like she's squating in Heiko Dachi. But, then again I have dial up, so the footage might be skipping, or something. Is she performing Rei from a Heiko Dach, rather then Musubi Dachi? I dont thin I've ever seen an Okinawan stylist perform Rei from Heiko Dachi before. I've seen Kyokushin, & some Iai/Batto Do stylist's do it, but never any Okinawan stylists.

David

Hi David:

Your computer is not skipping the footage :) I don't know what you call it, but that is how we bow when demonstrating.

My understanding is that before the mainland Japanese influence in Japan, this was more the "Okinawan" way of bowing, of which there are different variations depending on to whom you are bowing and what you are trying to convey to the person. I do not have written proof of this, references or documentation, and I am not trying to wax on about historical facts here. This is simply my understanding of what I have been taught.

We also bow with feet together a bit more from the waist at certain times, but not for demonstrations.

Best,
Tim

dsomers
8th December 2008, 23:23
Thank you for the explanation, it's much appreciated.

john_lord_b3
9th December 2008, 07:57
Hi everyone!

I'm new in these lands, and I come with a question. The rest I will bring up later, but what I have been pondering over recently is that in my (Kase Shotokan) version of Bassai Dai and Sho we begin with a slight forwards falling motion before stepping in to execute the double block, and I don't understand this temporary surrender of control.
Neither of my Sensei can explain it, so I wonder do any here have any insights regarding this?
Do other styles start their Bassai in this way?

Cheers
Henry Bellinger
Leicester, England

I'm wado and I do it almost like what you do. Off course our stance is a bit higher than you, as well as the hand positioning.

One of the interpretations:

Attack by your Uke: Your uke attack your stomach with a straight knife stab with his right hand.

Your reaction: You avoid to the left and simultaneously moving to your left front corner, at the same time you slaps down at your uke's knife hand with your left hand (osae-uke) and you hit him with right uraken to the face. Then you capture his right wrist (kote-gaeshi) and you turn 180 degrees to the left (facing your starting point) to throw him to the ground (kotenage).

The idea is to breach your opponent's defenses at the same time he is attacking you. So attack and defense are one.

That is how I was taught.

Henry
10th December 2008, 15:00
The one about looking for hidden kicks, the one about faking a lack of control, the one about looking at other styles' versions of the kata, or the one about the time machine?

Incidentally, a "fall" could be a response to being grabbed and pulled - by not resisting, we catch the attacker by surprise, close the gap and land the knee into the groin...

We need that time machine to find out from Oyadomari, Matsumura, Matsumora, Itosu and the Funakoshis what they were thinking at the time.

I meant the idea of pretending to surrender to suprise the foe. Time travel would take all of the mysticism out of karate, how could you suggest such a thing :eek:. This way we get to invent whatever meaning we like ;).

I also find interesting the idea that you fall to practice executing the technique from a position of weakness. If practicing with that in mind perhaps one should see how far one can fall before executing a good technique?


Is there anyone else out there willing to entertain the idea that the "fall" is poor technique, misunderstanding, faulty thinking?

This is of course as plausible as all the best Bunkai suggestions, which is why it interests me where this practice was either added or omitted. Since we don't know we can either cut it out or reverse-engineer the bunkai.

I've been taught and agree that kata are meant to contain many hidden messages and that is why we should be careful changing them for fear of losing something we simply didn't understand. Obviously many sensei change kata, either to try and improve it or through misunderstanding or inability, and so I must wonder if this snuck in by mistake or was purposeful.

Hanbaga
31st December 2008, 00:56
In Goju Ryu, we have a similar movement near the end of kata Sepai. I was originally taught to spring forward, jumping into the cross-legged position, sinking low. Since training in both Goju and Shorin, I've begun to do this movement as an asuri ashi rather than a jump. I prefer this method as I can maintain more control of my balance.

The thing I'm hung up on, in the Passai kata, in Sepai, and in other Shorin kata, is the cross-legged position. I'm prone to say that it has to do with turning around, because in Passai, we turn 180' and in Sepai, we turn 270'. But if you look at Pinan shodan, we block in the cross-legged position, kick and step forward with a strike. My teacher has had me apply the cross-legged position for blocking and striking techniques outside of traditional kata instruction. I've practiced a variety of techniques with it over the last few classes and it is an interesting movement.

But I find it inferior to other ways of movement and I don't know that it has much utility in fighting. It seems like a good opportunity for your opponent to capitalize on your position (both legs together and crossed). Same goes for all the sideways steps in the Naihanchi kata. Of course kata is a series of stops and starts and most applications I'm learning don't look exactly like the kata. But at this point, I can't see a rationale for using this foot position in combat, even to transition.

If this is off-topic, I'll move it to a new thread. But I'm getting the impression that the original question has been explored in detail and my question seems related. I'd be interested in peoples' thoughts on the usefulness of the cross-legged position.

William Bent
4th January 2009, 18:00
Er.... I'm not good with the terminology but I've been led to believe that one simple application of the jump-fall-step (whatever) into a cross legged stance was to bring your body weight down to break your opponent's wrist from a wrist lock.

If you picture the grabbing of your own fist as the opponent grabbing your right wrist in a cross hand grab, then circle your hand up, trap his hand against your wrist and drop just to the side of your opponent.

For what its worth




Bill Bent

gmanry
5th January 2009, 05:25
The version of pasai that I was taught is way different from what is usually shown. However, something that I think a lot of people miss in all the versions I have seen is the slight or more exagerated (depending on the version) twist of the torso during that maneuver.

The falling/stamping, imo, is a movement in broken timing, you are interrupting the timing of your opponent and using body weight in a severe manner.

Our bunkai was the escape of a rear hold and you attack an opponent coming at you, then turn to deal with the original attacker. Of course, we started from a double open handed stance, like naifanchi, and brought the double hands across our chest to our left shoulder then moved to the crossed stance with a supported block.

It was also interpreted as breaking a rear hold and throwing the rear attacker to the ground and stomping on him. As I said, our version is much "bigger" in motion and a little more obvious in parts, plus just plain different, though the same pattern is largely present.

Timothy.G.B.
6th January 2009, 18:16
In Goju Ryu, we have a similar movement near the end of kata Sepai. I was originally taught to spring forward, jumping into the cross-legged position, sinking low. Since training in both Goju and Shorin, I've begun to do this movement as an asuri ashi rather than a jump. I prefer this method as I can maintain more control of my balance.

The thing I'm hung up on, in the Passai kata, in Sepai, and in other Shorin kata, is the cross-legged position. I'm prone to say that it has to do with turning around, because in Passai, we turn 180' and in Sepai, we turn 270'. But if you look at Pinan shodan, we block in the cross-legged position, kick and step forward with a strike. My teacher has had me apply the cross-legged position for blocking and striking techniques outside of traditional kata instruction. I've practiced a variety of techniques with it over the last few classes and it is an interesting movement.

But I find it inferior to other ways of movement and I don't know that it has much utility in fighting. It seems like a good opportunity for your opponent to capitalize on your position (both legs together and crossed). Same goes for all the sideways steps in the Naihanchi kata. Of course kata is a series of stops and starts and most applications I'm learning don't look exactly like the kata. But at this point, I can't see a rationale for using this foot position in combat, even to transition.

If this is off-topic, I'll move it to a new thread. But I'm getting the impression that the original question has been explored in detail and my question seems related. I'd be interested in peoples' thoughts on the usefulness of the cross-legged position.

Hey Jonathon:

I already PM'd you but thought I would also chime in here.

I think the cross-legged stance is very useful if you know how to use it and that is the trick with everyone's karate.

Some things in a lot of modern kata are just plain dangerous and/or ridiculous from a fighting standpoint. I value being able to "use" all aspects of my karate as I spent too many years learning kata one way and then fighting a completely different way and it never seemed like a good use of my training time.

My standard, which I understand is not shared by many, is that if I personally wouldn't rely on it to keep myself safe, then it is not something I will spend my time training very much. With the cross-legged stance, standing in this stance can be dangerous from a fighting perspective I agree. However, standing still in any stance in a fight could be very dangerous!

As I understand the Shorin I am learning, movement is constant until you are out of danger.

Hope things are good for you in Naha.

Best,
Tim

Hanbaga
7th January 2009, 14:13
I appreciate the comments and definitely agree that it is foolish to be stationary in any stance during kata. The two applications mentioned are not ones I am familiar with but then again, I've been a Goju guy for years.

Bill, I'm just curious how the cross-legged stance would be preferred to some other stance where you can still lower your body and get to the side of your opponent for your wrist-lock application. Still pushing my hypothesis about using the stance for turning.

Glen, for your application, would you say then that the stance contributes to turning to deal with the other opponent who is behind you? That would be similar to my line of thought, using this stance to quickly turn and deal with someone else. Or is it rather to aid in the twisting of the body to break the hold/throw your opponent?

Tim, thanks for the private message. I'll be in touch soon. And to all - Happy 2009!

Nyuck3X
7th January 2009, 18:54
Sometimes a position is a suggestion that you are to do something to your uke. Marote uke is not always an augmented block. Sometimes it sugggests you are holding the opponent at the elbow and shoulder. Same, same with kosa dachi. Maybe it is not your own leg that is ment to be "trapped"?

Don't kno, maybe I need to take my meds... The voices are getting louder.:cry:

Peace

William Bent
8th January 2009, 21:07
"Bill, I'm just curious how the cross-legged stance would be preferred to some other stance where you can still lower your body and get to the side of your opponent for your wrist-lock application. Still pushing my hypothesis about using the stance for turning."

I actually like the transition if you are sure that you have the guy locked up. It is an iffy stance if the guy is still standing or can push against you from where he lands. I have an application for that sequence where you pull uke's head against your chest and then step over and twist. There's not enough room for his body to follow and you are sinking with his head. OUCH

On the other hand, the cross legged stance may only suggest a leg trap or a turn in direction.

I wouldn't try to cross step while circling around etc.

Timothy.G.B.
13th January 2009, 18:42
Hi Bill:

I would love to see a video example of how that move can be used as a leg trap. A long time ago someone told me that you could use it that way but I am still unconvinced :)!

If anyone has anything (even a picture) showing how that leg trap would work I would be very interested.

Best,
Tim

Nyuck3X
13th January 2009, 21:35
http://www.expertvillage.com/video/31105_jeet-kun-do-trap-variation.htm

This is only an example. Look at the hand position when he ends. Then look at his feet. Like I mentioned earlier, *it can be* a suggestion the the trapped leg is not your own. Tori can now move into a leg sweep.

Trevor Johnson
13th January 2009, 21:40
Hi Bill:

I would love to see a video example of how that move can be used as a leg trap. A long time ago someone told me that you could use it that way but I am still unconvinced :)!

If anyone has anything (even a picture) showing how that leg trap would work I would be very interested.

Best,
Tim

If you got it perfect, I can see it, but I can also see them tripping you if you get it the tiniest bit wrong, so it's not something I'd ever want to use.

I've always seen that move as exploding into an attacker, probably with a knee or short kick to the kneecap or groin, and bringing the leg up as a way of putting all your weight into the move to unbalance them, and then turning into the next move to throw them or as a move into a choke with the rear arm, depending on what their body does. It's not a stance you can hold for long, it's more of a snapshot of the middle of the technique, followed by rapidly backing up or turning.

shoshinkan
13th January 2009, 23:50
http://www.expertvillage.com/video/31105_jeet-kun-do-trap-variation.htm

This is only an example. Look at the hand position when he ends. Then look at his feet. Like I mentioned earlier, *it can be* a suggestion the the trapped leg is not your own. Tori can now move into a leg sweep.

In our system the Kosa Dachi is left leg forward, inside foot firt - ie not behind as in other shorin ryu.

I was told this signified 2 main things, 1. a break to stop our own momentum, ie plant that foot, 2. a stomp and trap into the lower shin.

Im not following the example shown Ray in relation to Passai so much, but my left foot forward would help that sequence along very niceley!

Henry
15th January 2009, 14:18
Er.... I'm not good with the terminology but I've been led to believe that one simple application of the jump-fall-step (whatever) into a cross legged stance was to bring your body weight down to break your opponent's wrist from a wrist lock...
Bill Bent That's a good application I hadn't considered, (Nikyo is it called?) though it doesn't address the loose falling motion shown by some styles (as in the vids I linked to)


I actually like the transition if you are sure that you have the guy locked up. It is an iffy stance if the guy is still standing or can push against you from where he lands. I have an application for that sequence where you pull uke's head against your chest and then step over and twist. There's not enough room for his body to follow and you are sinking with his head. OUCH
Indeed, that sounds similar to my application for the kosa dachi parts in Empi. First you have struck the opponent, then you get close up and are in this stance for a split second before twisting away, thrusting your former front thigh to push his back and shoving his head forwards and into the ground.

William Bent
21st January 2009, 03:27
Hi Bill:

I would love to see a video example of how that move can be used as a leg trap. A long time ago someone told me that you could use it that way but I am still unconvinced :)!

If anyone has anything (even a picture) showing how that leg trap would work I would be very interested.

Best,
Tim

I probably mis-spoke regarding the leg trap. I have heard it could be more than once but I have never tried it.