iaijutsu and kenjutsu

[nico storm]

Hi guys

I was hoping someone could help me out here. I have had contact on another site with someone who is eluding, I say eluding as my question are never outrightly answered, to be learning Okinawan iaijutsu and kenjutsu. I have been unable to find any information about sword schools from Okinawa, but I thought someone here would be far more likely to have answers.

[Dentokan]

All,

I learned a form/method of Iaijutsu from Toma Shian, who in turn had learned it from Uehara Seikichi of Motobu-Ryu fame. However, it (in my view) is rather simplistic and doesn't appear to be related to any main island Japanese ryu/ha.

Roy J. Hobbs

[dsomers]

Hamamoto Hisao Sensei teaches his family style of Batto Do at the Okinawa Prefectual Budokan, as well as Mugai Ryu Iaido.

[StevenR]

Perhaps these videos of Uehara Seikichi Sensei (Motobu-ryu - Udundi) wielding a katana might be of interest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkRkzOPc5Bs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmUEDqqj8hQ (see 2 minutes into the video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV-YPnPl-uM (see 2 minutes into the video)

All the best,
Steven



---
Steven Resell

[Dentokan]

That's essentially the sword technique I was taught by Toma Shian.

Roy J. Hobbs

[harleyt26]

I was at this mans home/sword shop in 2005.Top of the line stuff. http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=140&article=38196&archive=true

Tom Hodges

[nico storm]

All,

I learned a form/method of Iaijutsu from Toma Shian, who in turn had learned it from Uehara Seikichi of Motobu-Ryu fame. However, it (in my view) is rather simplistic and doesn't appear to be related to any main island Japanese ryu/ha.

Roy J. Hobbs

Thanks for the replies guys, I have checked out a few of the names and ryu mentioned in your messages and are a little confused.

Firstly a question to Roy. Do you have any links to more (reliable) information on Motobu-ryu. The links I have found so far do not really mention weapons at all, simply un-armed combat. Do you have any idea if these elements were added later. The only reason I ask, is not to make comments about adding to a particular curriculum later, but because I am trying to get a sense of if there were, historically, any sword schools, rather that karate-do schools with some sword work added in (especially if it was later).

Secondly, after a few searches about Hamamoto Hisao Sensei I came to some (very limited) information about Koden Hachiman Ryu Batto jutsu. This information was given along with Okinawa Mugai Ryu iaido.

From what I understood, Mugai-ryu iai was founded by Tsuji Gattan Sakemochi, who originated from Shiga prefecture and later moved to Kyoto to train in the sword arts. So I am unsure where the Okinawan part comes from, unless this is a different ryu (can anyone confirm this?).

It was interesting in the first video that they were "wearing" the sword blade down, or "upside-down" with reference to most other iai schools I have had contact with so far. It might suggest links to tachi rather than katana.

[harleyt26]

I may be incorrect but I think I remember Hamamoto sensei saying that Muguai Ryu was a style he had trained in for quite some time but what he shared with my group when we were there was his family style. I do not remember if he named his family style or not but I do remember that he is relocated from mailand Japan. I was under the impression that his styles are Japanese and not Okinawan.

I seem to recall drawings of the Motobu castle guards using bo and sword.But I do not remember for sure where those drawings were. I think it was at Shuri castle.

Tom Hodges

[robertmrivers]

Hamamoto san is with one of the Mugai Ryu Iaido Kais, but I am not sure which one, Kuroda Sensei might know. I received one of his curriculum manuals at one point a few years ago. But, it is not "Okinawan Mugai Ryu"...he is the OKinawa representative for his kai.

Suimokai has a representative in Okinawa here. http://www.ryufukai.jp/

As Hobbs sensei mentioned, the only indigenous Okinawan iai art is a compulsory facet of the Motobu Udundi Kobujutsu curriculum. If you are interested, my teacher in Koza might be taking students...

Best

Rob Rivers

[robertmrivers]

The iai of Motobu Ryu does several things that are not typical in Japanese ryu ha:

*The sword is in fact "upside down". In the case of kiri age, the timing is in fact faster if the saya is already turned. In motobu ryu this is facilitated because the
*sword is oftentimes not carried in the belt. Again, the timing is faster if the saya is brought to the tekki.

There are a lot of other nuances such as the saya being being actively used as a part of the waza, but suffice to stay study of the art in full is needed to really appreciate any of it.

Best

Rob Rivers

[Katsujinken]

There are two divisions to Motobu Ryu, one of which is the Kempo Karate that comes from Choki Motobu and the Udun di that allegedly comes from Choyu Motobu via Seikichi Uehara.
The later although starting with unarmed forms is according to Seikichi Uehara primarily a weapons based art or a Kobujutsu. It has three levels, the first of which is empty handed, the second level encompasses a variety of weapons and the third level is unarmed against weapons. see further the article Florence, R (1996) An interview with Uehara Seikichi on the Motobu Ryu Udun Di Bujutsu in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts Volume 5 No. 3 pages 67-89. Also see Joe Swifts translation of Matsuo Kanenori Sakon (2005) The Secret Royal Martial Arts of Ryukyu. Published by Books on Demand GmbH. An interview with Kanenori Sakon also appears in Classical Fighting Arts Issue No. 4 on pages 20-24. Some further information on Bladed weapons in Okinawa making specific reference to Motobu Udun di and Bugeikan can be found in articles written by Mark Bishop in Bugeisha Magazine back issues No.4 Winter 1997 & No. 5 Spring 1998 there is also a section on the Ti styles in his Okinawan Karate book. The general claim by the Motobu Udun Di people is that the bladed weapons have always been there, this is in fact quite unlikely and there is little verifiable proof that there were any sword schools as such practising any form of Iai Jutsu or Iaido in Okinawa. It certainly also needs to be noted that Seikichi Uehara who originally taught the sword of Motobu Udun Di did not come back from the Philippines until 1947, after the war. There has been some speculation that Bushi Matsumura practised Jigen Ryu and may have passed it on in Okinawa, but alas so far there is little solid verfiable evidence to support this proposition. However do see the article by Meik Skoss entitled Questions and Answers. Ryukyu Kobudo vs Nihon Kobudo (1998) in The Iaido Newsletter Vol 10 the Iaido journal which compares Ryukyu and Nihon Kobudo. The link is at http://www.uoguelph.ca/~kataylor/97tin98.htm

You may also be interested in the following two videos on Youtube, which shows the Bugeikan demonstrations done at the ptrefectural Okinawan Budokan where some Iaido based on Motobu Udun Di is demonstrated. The links are here:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iw9-WFBXKfo
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=77NjFzk2Tu8

Regards

[stormrider]

There was a gentleman connected with the Kenshinkan who was teaching what he called Iai Nuke, the draw was earth to heaven or edge down (Tachi style) the handle for the blade seemed to be a bit short, about hand and a half in lenght

[Dentokan]

John,

You asked:

Firstly a question to Roy. Do you have any links to more (reliable) information on Motobu-ryu. The links I have found so far do not really mention weapons at all, simply un-armed combat. Do you have any idea if these elements were added later. The only reason I ask, is not to make comments about adding to a particular curriculum later, but because I am trying to get a sense of if there were, historically, any sword schools, rather that karate-do schools with some sword work added in (especially if it was later).

I'm afraid I really can't add anything to what Chris Norman wrote. My study of Motobu-Ryu sword was not from a historian's perspective, but was as a student accepting what his teacher was giving him.

Cheers!

Roy

[nico storm]

John,

You asked:

Firstly a question to Roy. Do you have any links to more (reliable) information on Motobu-ryu. The links I have found so far do not really mention weapons at all, simply un-armed combat. Do you have any idea if these elements were added later. The only reason I ask, is not to make comments about adding to a particular curriculum later, but because I am trying to get a sense of if there were, historically, any sword schools, rather that karate-do schools with some sword work added in (especially if it was later).

I'm afraid I really can't add anything to what Chris Norman wrote. My study of Motobu-Ryu sword was not from a historian's perspective, but was as a student accepting what his teacher was giving him.

Cheers!

Roy

Cheers Roy, I have a tendency to ask too many questions!

Thanks for all the replies.

[Shikiyanaka]

Please note a specific difference to Japanese mainland ryuha, that is Ryukyu 1) manufactured some of its own weapons and 2) acquired others from
a) China and b) Japan. Point is many of the sword blades came from Japan, but the handles were of Ryukyuan design to facilitate wielding the swords with one hand. You can see this peculiarity in the Iai of Motobu Udundi.
BTW, I met one older guy of Motobu Udundi. He told me he started training at 5 years of age or so and was around 50 years at the time. He said, they do not have any western students. Comments???

[Dentokan]

All,

Two of my teachers, Toma Seiki & Toma Shian, studied directly under Uehara Sensei. They each taught elements of Motobu-Ryu, although their teaching of Motobu-Ryu was really adjunct to their teaching of Shorin-Ryu. My original Shodan menjo from Toma Shian is a Motobu-Ryu menjo, signed by Uehara Sensei.

Boulahfa Mimoun Abdel-Lah of Spain was a direct student of Uehara Sensei, as well as a student of Toma Shian Sensei. As best as I can recall, he was graded to 7th Dan in Motobu-Ryu by Uehara Sensei himself.

Roy J. Hobbs

[Katsujinken]

Andreas,

You asked for comments. On the basis of my limited knowledge of Motobu Udun Di I can confirm that in addition to Boulahfa Mimoun Abdel-Lah that Sensei Hobb's mentions as having studied under Seikichi Uehara and achieving 7th Dan under him (confirmed also in an interview with Uehara Sensei in 1996 by Florence) others mentioned in an interview with richard Florence in JAMA that there was also a Robert Bryner of Los Angeles, about whom I know nothing, in addition to another American, who at the time was not named and who had only just become a student after the interview (Florence 1996:880). I believe that the other American could have been Jody Paul, but not sure of the year he first trained with Uehara perhaps Sensei Hobbs knows?

There is also Denis Branchaud of the Kodokai in Rhode Island who is a student of Motobu Ryu Udun Di under Takeo Miyagi and Ryosu Taira, the website has an information leaflet and some videos of kodokai visits to Okinawa and can be found here: http://www.branchdojo.com/ourmartialarts/palacehand.html.

Robert Rivers, who contributes to this forum occassionally, has also had some Motobu Udun Di training under Chosei Motobu, who now officially heads both of the Motobu family styles.

There is currently another American training in Motobu Ryu Udun Di in Tokyo who took this video: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fmUEDqqj8hQ I gather that he trains under an Ikeda Shihan, only know of him through some discussions on another forum.

Hubert Laenen of Belgium is a direct student and representative of Shiroma Seihan. Shiroma was a direct student of Seikichi Uehara. Shiroma calls his own style Moudi Motobu Ryu Gassen Tuite Rengokai.

I am unaware of quite how many other westerners may have picked up some Motobu Ryu Goshin Jutsu from having trained with the likes of Shian Toma and Seiki Toma that Sensei Hobb's mentions in additional to others (i.e. Seikichi Odo) who may like him have picked up Motobu Ryu adjunct to other karate and kobudo material they have studied. This would of course also include people who have trained at Seitoku Higa's Bugeikan at various points in time, who have come from England, France and Scandinavia.

I would be interested to know if you have any more information on these Ryukan handles that were placed on the Japanese and Chinese bladed weapons?

Regards

[Shikiyanaka]

Hobbs san, Chris san,

thanks for the detailed input. Personally I never doubted that there are no "Western students" in Motobu udundi. It was just that this nice old man said it, for whatever reason, from whatever perspective, I really don't know. Maybe he was looking for a student??? :laugh:

Chris, I promise giving you the short info and source I have on the sword handles next week. You probably want to contact the author himself. It's an interesting and also important point in the discussion, with Motobu udundi often technically compared with Japanese mainland ryuha while at the same time not noting the historical and cultural differences.

[tgall]

Hello,

there are two more school of Ryukyu Kobudo where they train with the sword, in the Kenshinryu of Hayashi and in the Shorin Ryu Siu Sin Kan (a german stil that should be connected with the Shorin Ryu Seibkukan). Perhaps that could help you a little.

Sincerly

Thomas

[Katsujinken]

Thomas,

I believe that the sword training in Hayashi Kenshin Ryu is actuallly of Japanese origin, perhaps from the Mugei Ryu that Shogo Kuniba practised. This video on youtube: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzc3lsacKNI would seem to suggest Japanese sword work also.

I do not know enough about Shorin Ryu Siu Sin Kan to be able to comment on their sword work, though would be interested in knowing more about them and where their sword work may have come from.

Regards

[Dentokan]

Chris,

You are correct regarding the ryu/ha being demonstrated in the clip being from Mugei-Ryu. The gentleman in white is Kuniba Sensei. It was his version of Mugei-Ryu which I first studied in the late 60s, early 70s.

Roy

Roy J. Hobbs

[john_lord_b3]

Good day Hobbs sensei,

So happy to see you active in E-Budo. Regarding the sword-work, I wonder when can we see any clips of our Dentokan Iai be put in our website? It will surely be edifying for our members.

BTW, I'd like to say merry christmas to all Dentokan family. We may be separated by oceans and continents, but we are one in spirit!

[Katsujinken]

Guys,

Please note a correction to post 17 made by myself. Where I stated that
'there is another American training in Motobu Udun Di in Tokyo who took this video http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fmUEDqqj8hQ' This is an error.

The comment should have read: 'whom in a discussion on another forum indicated a link to videos of his dojo senpai in some demonstrations, which can be found at: http://www.geocities.jp/shudoukanjp/new_page_28.htm '.

Regards

[mugitani]

Regarding Ryukyuan ken-jutsu, this may answer some questions:
http://motobu-ryu.org/weapons_en.aspx

Aaron Meldahl

[Katsujinken]

Aaron,
You have indeed been very busy, extremely nice work. The table is really useful.
Thank You.

Regards

[epramberg]

Hi guys

I was hoping someone could help me out here. I have had contact on another site with someone who is eluding, I say eluding as my question are never outrightly answered, to be learning Okinawan iaijutsu and kenjutsu. I have been unable to find any information about sword schools from Okinawa, but I thought someone here would be far more likely to have answers.


Um...that doesn't exist. Perhaps Okinawa had a genuine sword art somewhere, but it isn't going to be with the Japanese Katana, and most likely won't be a quick-draw art like iai.

I wouldn't count on finding a sword art, even if it does exist. Okinawa is pretty proud of it's weapon bans. You will notice that the kobu weapons are not straight-up battlefield weapons like swords, spears, and axes. It is all farm implements and disassembled weapons. I haven't even seen Okinawan knife-fighting.

Some Karate schools do teach a modern ken/iai curriculum to help with precision.

[epramberg]

I just had a look at some of the links. Did the Okinawans really call their art, "Kenjitsu" or did they have another name for it? Perhaps I missed something.

[mugitani]

Please have a look at this:
http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/g/j/gjs4/Smits_SF06.pdf
apparently, there were even firearms (p.8) and cannon (p.12) in Ryukyu. It seems pretty clear that the aristocracy also possessed swords.

Motobu Choki sensei uses the term ken-jutsu in his book. The website I posted earlier also gives terms for sword techniques particular to Ryukyu.

Aaron Meldahl

[epramberg]

Please have a look at this:
http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/g/j/gjs4/Smits_SF06.pdf
apparently, there were even firearms (p.8) and cannon (p.12) in Ryukyu. It seems pretty clear that the aristocracy also possessed swords.

Motobu Choki sensei uses the term ken-jutsu in his book. The website I posted earlier also gives terms for sword techniques particular to Ryukyu.

Aaron Meldahl

Grad school project? I didn't get to read the whole thing because I have to go to work. Sorry about that.

I did see the Motobu Ryu videos with the short swords. I am kind of curious how they used the Japanese swords modified to be one-handed. Is there any video of that? I am also curious why they modified them to be one handed. More accurately, what were they holding in their other hand?

[mugitani]

Eric (Pete?),

The link I posted was to the text of a presentation given by Gregory Smits, who is one of the foremost historians of Ryukyu writing in English. Providing people with the link is I believe more informative than me just saying "oh yes, they did have weapons."

I have seen demonstrations of one-handed sword usage. I'm not at liberty to post the video on my own. Maybe eventually it will pop up on one of the Motobu-ryu sites. Often (but not always) the other hand (left or right) is holding the scabbard, as mentioned on the website.

Aaron Meldahl

[robertmrivers]

You're going to have to train in it a bit to see it and be able to appreciate what is going on...it has the subtleties of any koryu.

There are countless variations that revolve around a few principles. There is not going to be one single answer for every single question.

As for the one handed techniques, why would any koryu sword practitioner go with one hand in a particular instant of an encounter...distance.

In regards to what the other hand is doing, Okinawan guards/ Udundi practitioners carry the sword out of the obi. Practice is ambidextrous. The saya is in the other hand. Udundi Iai uses the same concept as bringing the tsuka forward on approach and then applying sayabiki to advance the timing of the draw. Only, the draw and reach is not limited to the saya being in the belt, the sword can completely be moved towards the opponent, or anywhere for that matter, and then the saya stripped off the sword.

Motobu Udundi is an intense study of ma ai and ashi sabaki. As with any koryu, a certain degree of commitment to it has to happen in order to appreciate it.

Rob Rivers

[robertmrivers]

Also, read George Kerr's "Okinawa, History of an Island People". I'm one of the loonies who has read the thing cover to cover several times (its a text book...).

Okinawa has had firearms, swords of Chinese, Japanese, and European origin, and all other manner of weapon for hundreds of years.

Beginning with the weapon ban of the Okinawan King in the late 1500's and the subsequent 1609 Satsuma ban, what weapons do you think they were banning? Documents from the early 1600s document the records of the inventories taken by the Japanese of the Okinawan storehouses to include firearms (the Portuguese had been trading with the Ryukyus since the 1400s), swords, spears, etc.

Needless to say, there were weapons...and the only people who think that a sai, for example, was a pitchfork, are the Westerners. The Okinawan masters do not all facilitate all of the "Okinawan farm tool" rhetoric.

All the best

Rob Rivers

[Shinte do]

Mark Bishop's weapons book goes into all this and much more and should be available in the next couple of weeks.

regards

[Katsujinken]

Mike,
Greetings. Long time no hear. Do you have the title, publisher and if possible the ISBN of Mark Bishops long anticipated new book?

Regards

[dsomers]

I know this thread is a little old, but for those of you that are interested Hamamoto Sensei now has a website. Here it is: http://hachimanryu.web.fc2.com/english.html

[FFMAC]

I met Hamamoto Sensei in Okinawa this past April while visiting the Budokan in Naha. We looked in and here he came to talk and visit a little. Nice man even offered to allow us to train unfortunetly we didn't have any of our stuff with us this particular day. His students were good!!