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Xenophon456
12th December 2008, 16:39
When I was a kid I trained in Shotokan and the Black belts were like celebrities to me and others. The friends I had that had black belts were untouchable. Last week I toured some of the Dojos in my neighborhood (Granada hills ca). 99% of the Dojos around here are Tae Kwon Do.
The first Dojo I entered had two black belts both about 13. This gave me concern. I sat and watched them work and was not impressed. No snap, no power, no focus.
The second I entered was an all black belt class and all adults. I thought what a treat for me to watch. One of the female black belts couldn't throw a high round house with out holding on to the bar. The whole class looked like beginners or intermediate. I wanted to ask the sensei about it but I knew if I did it would be a complete insult to him.
The last dojo of interest was a Krav Maga. Again a class of mostly Black belts. They had country music playing in the back ground. The instructor looked good and I think could hold his own, but the rest of the class spent their time chasing each other around the mat instead of engaging.
This all leads to my question of concern. How do you judge a dojo? I am at a Dojo now that I have concerns about. I see people test and pass and I question if they should. What keeps me their is the fact that their Black Belts ALL impress me. So I figure they are doing something right to produce the end product.

Juan Perez
12th December 2008, 17:56
I'd say that if you enter a legitimate BJJ school, a black belt will be a "black belt" and you will rarely - if ever - find a 13 year old black belt unless he can submit other black belts.

My ninpo instructor told me that back in the days when Bujinkan was kind of new - but not that new - and Genbukan was just beginning, black belts were very hard to come by and that getting one was the result of very tough training and those few had that a ninpo black belt were kind of an elite group (because of how rare it was). Don't know how it is now. But, every art has its phases. Eventually, BJJ may go the same route. That being the case, things may swing back the other way too.

skylinerR32
12th December 2008, 21:39
I still remember when I started out in Taekwondo at 13 - we were taught kicks of course, but it was more split along the lines of 25% techniques and 75% conditioning. Squat hop races, frog-jump races, wheel-barrel races, sit-ups after sit-ups and whatever plyometric exercises our teacher came up with at the time. I never asked him why we did all the conditioning exercises because even back then it was rather obvious to me and the other kids that you needed to have good balance, strength, and flexibility if you ever wanted to throw a good kick or punch.

Unfortunately, in modern times, the act of receiving the black belt itself now outweighs the importance of the physical efforts required for earning it.

Jim Yang

Xenophon456
12th December 2008, 22:01
Unfortunately, in modern times, the act of receiving the black belt itself now outweighs the importance of the physical efforts required for earning it.

Jim Yang
Jim thank you for that. In one of my TKD classes their is a red belt who is overweight and very out of shape. He makes it through class but I always thing.
If this guy was in shape how much better would he be?
and of course how did he get through the testing being out of shape?
Is the testing different for different people? Do they modify it on your ability?
I know every time I go to test they all ways mention three things. 1. How long since my last test 2. How many classes I have attended 3. How well I know the material. It bothers me because all I care about is how well do I know the material.

BlackPaladin
12th December 2008, 22:04
"I wouldn't join a club that would have me as a member."--Groucho Marx

I would never want to be associated with a McDojo. You would be better off approaching one of the black belts and paying for individualized training sessions.

The business of martial arts clouds the way on the true paths.

K. Fredheim
12th December 2008, 22:49
McDojos aside, comparing "black belts" between arts isn't really feasible. I think it was Kim Taylor that wrote an interesting piece on how the only two ranks that matter are: the one that allows you to teach and the one that allows you to issue rank. (Paraphrasing from memory here, feel free to correct me or dig up the article.)

skylinerR32
12th December 2008, 23:52
If this guy was in shape how much better would he be?
and of course how did he get through the testing being out of shape?
Is the testing different for different people? Do they modify it on your ability?


You bring up a good point. When I studied traditional Japanese Karate for a bit I noticed that there were those who entered the school looking to shape up and learn the art and those who were in pretty good shape to begin with and picked up the material without too much difficulty.

I'm of the opinion that if someone who possesses a physical disability truly and honestly wants to learn the art and devotes 110% effort towards the endeavor, there always needs to be consideration of how physical limits (e.g. moderate to heavy asthma, prior major surgeries) might impact performance use of techniques - otherwise, if I'm perfectly healthy and just lazy and way out-of-shape, I'd be wondering why some low ranked yellow belt is beating the tar out of me in sparring when I'm the guy one step away from a black belt.


I know every time I go to test they all ways mention three things. 1. How long since my last test 2. How many classes I have attended 3. How well I know the material. It bothers me because all I care about is how well do I know the material.

Attendance is suppose to be a gauge of how theoretically ready a person is for advancement testing, but in this day and age I seriously believe that most places - I'm talking about the McDojos here - test for the money. When I studied Taekwondo I would ask my instructor when I could test for the next belt and and the next, and his answer would invariably be the same: "When I tell you that you're ready for it. In the meantime, just keep practicing."

I have no problems with a set schedule for testing as long as the possibility for the student to fail a test actually exists - in most Karate and Taekwondo places today it remains possible for a student to test and not perform to adequate standards and yet still pass because he/she paid the testing fee. Now, if a student knew that failure was indeed a possible outcome, how much harder would that person work towards passing?

Jim Yang

Nii
13th December 2008, 03:24
This is an interesting topic, something that I have personally had problems with in the past. I received my blackbelt in TKD when I was only about 10. It does give a sense of inflated self confidence for sure. But you eventually mature out of it.

I call this problem 'belt inflation'. I recently received my 4th dan at 20 years old. After the hard work and time put into getting it, I consider it equivalent to a 'true' first black belt. So in taekwondo, I view getting a 4th dan = 1st dan. I have since left taekwondo and learn Judo instead.

BJJ and Judo have good quality control. I've been in Judo for quite some time, but until I compete and win enough points I will not be able to go further. Pretty good system.

Xenophon456
13th December 2008, 04:44
McDojos aside, comparing "black belts" between arts isn't really feasible.
That is a very interesting statement. I am not debating it, just trying to digest it. One assumes that no matter what art your training in once you reach the level of Black belt you are fairly competent in the art. One who does not train would assume your bad ass. One who teaches Martial arts might say your ready to start learning.

All that a side, then how do you judge a DOJO. I spent a couple of days touring DOJO's in my neighborhood and was not impressed. I have seen people pass tests that I did not think should pass, but who am I to judge. I also have see positive it is suppose to be fairly impossible for anyone under 18 to obtain a black belt here. I know some who have trained for 15 years. They tell me the average time for an adult is 6 to 7 years.

skylinerR32
13th December 2008, 05:29
All that a side, then how do you judge a DOJO. I spent a couple of days touring DOJO's in my neighborhood and was not impressed. I have seen people pass tests that I did not think should pass, but who am I to judge. I also have see positive it is suppose to be fairly impossible for anyone under 18 to obtain a black belt here. I know some who have trained for 15 years. They tell me the average time for an adult is 6 to 7 years.

Personal Criteria for Judging a Dojo (not in any ranking order):

Teacher-student ratio
Technical competency and emotional maturity of the head instructor
Does the instructor take time to break down and explain techniques (even if it' just a reminder for long time, advanced students) and drill in the basics until they become muscle-memory?
Speed, power, and fluidity of motion demonstrated by the movements of advanced students in both forms and sparring

Those of us who have been around long enough to be a part of good dojos realize very quickly what quality truly means when we leave and enter another not quite what I had last time dojos.

6 to 7 years for shodan sounds about the same as what my Taekwondo instructor told me was the typical average for him grant someone a black belt. He said that the sole exception he had was a guy who earned it in 4 years flat - of course the guy was also a full-time triathlete who went to class 4-5 days a week.

FYI, when people ask about my black belt I just tell them “Basically, this means I graduated highschool. And no, I wasn’t on the honor roll or anywhere near the top of the class. I got C+s on most days and on really good ones, B+s” :)

Jim Yang

K. Fredheim
13th December 2008, 10:47
One assumes that no matter what art your training in once you reach the level of Black belt you are fairly competent in the art. One who does not train would assume your bad ass. One who teaches Martial arts might say your ready to start learning.

I think that is the problem: everyone has their own ideal what a black belt should be, and judge other schools/styles against that ideal. But that doesn't really work, as a black belt isn't a standard certificate of badassery.

Now within the framework of a style, it's a whole other thing. If instructors award belts based on attendance, good behaviour and fees paid instead of technical skill, that can only be detrimental to the art. I agree with Nii's opinion on BJJ and Judo, I think the system ensures the overall quality of the black belts.

Jitsumania
14th December 2008, 22:18
I absolutly love this topic and the candor and maturity of the posters here. I had an open house for our new DOjo in Victoria Texas yesterday. One of the visitors approached me with a series of questions that surprised me. He asked me how my training would compare to that of a person he knew teaching Judo at a Kung Fu school. The teacher had been training in Judo for 2 years?!?!?!(I've been doing Judo/Jujitsu for decades). He wanted to know if my ranking system would get him to Black Belt quicker than his. I informed him that Belts, especially Black Belt ranking came slow due to the volume of material and my expectation of proficiency as an Instructor. I informed him that it would be a minimum of 41/2- 5 years at a minimum of regular training. Brown Belts have to serve a year of Instructor internship prior to consideration for Shodan testing. I then graciously told him that this type of Dojo may not be for him if he wanted a quick Black Belt. Long live OLD SCHOOL and the tradition that keeps quality alive in the Martial Arts. It is not just about the money but the forging of a lifestyle.

Xenophon456
14th December 2008, 23:04
Today I look my kids to a local Christmas parade. All of my children ages 9-11-13 years old study Motobu Ryu and so do I. In the Parade their were at least 3 Dojo's. Each one of the Dojo's had black belts the same age as my children. This opened a line of questioning especially from my 9 year old. He wanted to know how come he was not a black bet yet? How is it possible that they are so many young Black belts in the other Dojo's when at ours their are none under the age of 18. I tried to explain it the best I could to him. He tried to understand but I know he did not want to. He just wanted to be able to say he is a black belt. I know that I need to regroup my thoughts and have a talk with him so he understands that the belt is not what is important. But I am not sure I will be able to explain it to him until he is more mature.

skylinerR32
15th December 2008, 02:23
In the Parade their were at least 3 Dojo's. Each one of the Dojo's had black belts the same age as my children. This opened a line of questioning especially from my 9 year old. He wanted to know how come he was not a black bet yet? How is it possible that they are so many young Black belts in the other Dojo's when at ours their are none under the age of 18.

I don't have kids, but if I did, I'd just pop this movie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JXWXTLp8sg&feature=related) (3:06 and 6:06 have the best lines of this segment) into the DVD player and let the life lessons on why at the end of the day the black belt (or any colored belt) does not and cannot confer any abilities you haven't earned through hard work and diligence.

Can a 9 or 11 year old earn a black belt ? Yes, but the only one that I've ever encountered that had such ranking AND the relevant abilities associated with the rank had also been training since 3 years old with his father and two brothers who were all running a full-time TKD dojang.

Bruce Lee never earned any belt that I'm aware of (in fact, I'm pretty sure he had no real faith or interest in ranking in the least). Miyamoto Musashi never had any formal ranking that I've read about. And the brutal effectivenss of Mas Oyama resulted largely from his self-secluded mountain training, not some rank awarded inside a dojo.

Hey Rick, Big CONGRATULATIONS!!! :) on the opening of your dojo. Sorry us Fort Worth folks could not make it down for the celebration - if plans to host Jose and company for January at your new place are still on, I'll definitely travel down with him.

Jim Yang

Jitsumania
15th December 2008, 04:55
Hey Jim, so good to hear from you. Good post on the topic.
I have 4 sons and all have trained and crosstrained with me and other teachers and hold high mudansha rank but still have no Shodan rank, even though a few of them possess the technical proficiency. They must do it just like everybody else- blood, sweat, tears, and not always in that order as well as maturity and time in grade.
Jim, we will be hosting the next Roppokai gathering the last weekend in January. Jose will be coming down. You are welcome to stay with us if you wish.

skylinerR32
15th December 2008, 23:18
Thank you for your hospitality Rick - I'll definitely take you up on it for the Roppokai seminar :D

As for the topic at hand, I remembered a quote from Michael Crichton's novel, Jurassic Park when I read it waaaay back in junior high that struck me as relevant to this thread:


"Most kinds of power require a substantial sacrifice by whoever wants the power. There is an apprenticeship, a discipline lasting many years. Whatever kind of power you want. President of the company. Black belt in karate. Spiritual guru. Whatever it is you seek, you have to put in the time, the practice, the effort. You must give up a lot to get it. It has to be very important to you. And once you have attained it, it is your power. It can't be given away: it resides in you. It is literally the result of your discipline.

Now, what is interesting about this process is that, by the time someone has acquired the ability to kill with his bare hands, he has also matured to the point where he won't use it unwisely. So that kind of power has a built-in control. The discipline of getting the power changes you so that you won't abuse it.

But scientific power is like inherited wealth: attained without discipline. You read what others have done, and you take the next step. You can do it very young. You can make progress very fast. There is no discipline lasting many decades. There is no mastery: old scientists are ignored. There is no humility before nature. There is only a get-rich-quick, make-a-name-for-yourself-fast philosophy. Cheat, lie, falsify - it doesn't matter. Not to you, or to your colleagues. No one will criticize you. No one has any standards. They are all trying to do the same thing: to do something big, and do it fast."

Food for thought.

Jim Yang

brendan V Lanza
28th January 2009, 15:32
I'm in Korea, and have trained in Tae Kwon Do in my youth. It's interesting to point out that last year there was an expose here about how easily some of the TKD dojang's are giving out black belts. Kukkiwon was scandalized a bit, they had some guy on TV saying that the organisation was giving them out easier as a result of pressure from kids parents and because of money issues. It is supposedly also a result of Tae Kwon Do being turned into a sport, no longer an art. Most dojang's here don't teach breaking anymore and train people on hitting on a point basis. The original Tae Kwon Do can more likely be found in the states from previous practitioners who learned it when it was still strictly a martial art. Most Koreans in the army have to learn it, but it's only for a few weeks. They consider the hardcore martial art to be TuKong Moosul, taught to the special forces here. Regardless, most Koreans have actually trained in Tae Kwon Do. Actually, the North Korean Tae Kwon Do is the best, they really train there, many people learn and train to kill with a single kick, which they should be able to do in multiple attacker situations. I have seen a few videos of demo for their Tae Kwon Do team, they're wicked. Here, in South Korea, they also have what they call Pro Tae Kwon Do, which is supposed to be closer to the original, but it's still a bit watered down compared to the North Korean method.

Dave G
29th January 2009, 21:29
When I began training in JKA Shotokan in the mid 1970's, it was understood by all that passing the shodan exam only meant two things, that you could now wear a black belt and that you had an understanding of basic techniques. It took 3 to 5 years of regular training to get to the point of being allowed to take the test.
In those days the training was very hard. I left every class with something either bleeding, swollen or some sort of minor injury.
In the same class I broke my thumb and had two cracked ribs from a mawashei geri from our sempei. That was on Tuesday. On Thursday the next class I was back and dressed out early and ready to go. I was young (26) and eager. It might seem odd today but in those days we were used to it.
I am now returning to training after a long time away from karate. I have about 40 lbs to loose before I will feel good about anything. I am returning as a beginner and hope to go as far as possible in rank. I hope that shodan still means something. It still does to me. I can't wait to earn it and then be able to really begin my training.

brendan V Lanza
1st February 2009, 15:12
SIR WHAT YOU SAID IS INSPIRING, ESPECIALLY TO A FELLOW KARATE PRACTITIONER, i WISH YOU THE BEST OF LUCK AND HOPE THAT YOU FIND A GOOD TEACHER WHO CAN HELP YOU FULFILL THAT DREAM OF YOURS. tHE TRICK IS IN FINDING A TEACHER WHO HOLDS TO THE OLD WAYS AS WELL, IT'S NOT ALWAYS EASY TO DO, BUT THERE ARE STILL ENOUGH OUT THERE. THERE ARE STILL ALOT IN KARATE, MOST OF KARATE PHILOSOPHY COMES FROM GICHEN FUNAKOSHI, AND PEOPLE TEND TO EMULATE HIM IN HIS IDEAS OF KARATE AS BEING A WAY, NOT A SPORT, MYSELF INCLUDED. SHODAN DOES STILL MEAN SOMETHING, AND I HOPE YOU FIND IT AGAIN.

epramberg
9th February 2009, 09:26
This all leads to my question of concern. How do you judge a dojo? I am at a Dojo now that I have concerns about. I see people test and pass and I question if they should. What keeps me their is the fact that their Black Belts ALL impress me. So I figure they are doing something right to produce the end product.

Well, I would day that the truth is that what a dan ranking means depends on the dojo. In Wado style, it would be hard to say that someone "didn't earn" a dan ranking from Takagi. These people are Bob Nash, Norma Foster and the like. Takagi-ryu people are insanely polished and Takagi doesn't just let people squeek by.

On the other hand, some schools don't have that polish on them, but they may not be completely bad. Don't get me wrong; I do like my karate teacher, our school DOES have good students, but sometimes I question whether our black belts really earned their ranks, and I look at both technique and spirit.

I think if you want a decent way of concretely judging schools, go with the easy and accurate way. Look at what they are doing, and if you like it they are good. If you don't like it they are bad.

Daniel Sullivan
10th February 2009, 15:49
This all leads to my question of concern. How do you judge a dojo? I am at a Dojo now that I have concerns about. I see people test and pass and I question if they should. What keeps me their is the fact that their Black Belts ALL impress me. So I figure they are doing something right to produce the end product.

As a part time taekwondo instructor, I find that the kiddie blackbelt is the curse of taekwondo. These kiddie belts hold a junior rank (a poom as opposed to a dan) which converts to a full dan rank upon them turning fifteen and their school filing paperwork or when they test for their next 'degree', if the child is fifteen or over, and say a second poom, if they pass, they're now third dan. Few of these kiddie-dans have the chops that one would expect of a yudansha. But they enable the school to boast in their lliterature that they promoted more blackbelts than the guy down the road, something that appeals to parents.

The problem is that some of these kiddie dans become "masters" by the time they're in their early twenties and were never pushed to measure up to what a yudansha should be. These paper tigers go on to promote their own students, and since they themselves don't have the same skill as the guy that taught them, they pass on even less to their own students. When they promote these students, they promote students who are inferior to themselves. And it goes on until you have fourth dans that look like seventh kyus.

From what I understand and have seen, this is not unique to taekwondo, though taekwondo is the biggest offender.

To answer your question, you are like myself in that you know what a blackbelt should look like. Even in a different style, you can tell by how the person moves, their confidence, and their power. I always look at a school's blackbelts to form an opinion. If the master is elderly and infirm and unable to look like Dolph Lundgren, I don't care. I want to know what his or her yudansha look like. Yudansha are the report card of the school. Blackbelts who flail around and look awkward are an indication of unearned promotions.

Also, too many "promotion products" in a school can be an indicator that the school is more about promotions and the resulting income than about serious training: Things such as 'blackbelt clubs, leadership clubs, and masters clubs', all of which cost money over and above the tuition, often come with special keikogis and/or patches, place the student (usually kids) in a "special" or "elite" clique, and rarely if ever offer anything of value in terms of training to the student.

Such programs and clubs don't automatically make the school bad, but bad schools tend to gravitate towards such things. When I first got into "karate," which turned out to be taekwondo, the blackbelts were "special" and "elite" because they really could fight like champions and because their technique was beautiful. That is the image of a blackbelt that I hold in my head when I go to look at a school.

How are their stances? If their stances are lousy, then detail work was never done. Do they lose ballance when they throw kicks? If so, then they haven't become proficient in the basics, and thus should not have a black belt.

Daniel

Jitsumania
10th February 2009, 23:41
I like Daniels post and his candor, especially about a system that he teaches. I have encountered quite a few of these Kiddie Masters. I have a very vivid memory of a school I did a Kyusho Jitsu seminar at in South Texas. I encountered teens and young adults with HIGH level Yudansha ranks. There was a young man who was getting ready to enter Military service (age 20) who sported seven stripes on his Black belt!!!!. I have a hard time understanding this mentality of promotion. The young man was very skillfull, but to be sporting six stripes on his Belt was quite surprising to me. Maybe my old school method of training and promotion have not meshed well with this current generation of training but thats OK with me. I will continue to promote based on merit, skill, attitude, time in grade,etc as was done to me. Give me small quantity with very good quality vs the paper mill promotions anyday. The Black Belt must count for something more than ego or money!

ssanutokh
10th February 2009, 23:56
The Black Belt must count for something more than ego or money!

If you'll humor me:

Why?

skylinerR32
11th February 2009, 02:10
If you'll humor me:

Why?

Because upon earning your black belt you should realize an inescapable truth: the color of the belt you're wearing symbolizes the result of dedication, pain, sacrifice, triumphs, forging the bonds of a common brotherhood, and pursuing the further depths of one's discipline; and most importantly, it should signal the acknowledgment of a very salient realization: the black belt is a road-sign at the beginning of the journey, not the end. (There really is no end)

Jim Yang

Daniel Sullivan
11th February 2009, 03:48
I like Daniels post and his candor, especially about a system that he teaches. I have encountered quite a few of these Kiddie Masters. I have a very vivid memory of a school I did a Kyusho Jitsu seminar at in South Texas. I encountered teens and young adults with HIGH level Yudansha ranks. There was a young man who was getting ready to enter Military service (age 20) who sported seven stripes on his Black belt!!!!. I have a hard time understanding this mentality of promotion. The young man was very skillfull, but to be sporting six stripes on his Belt was quite surprising to me. Maybe my old school method of training and promotion have not meshed well with this current generation of training but thats OK with me. I will continue to promote based on merit, skill, attitude, time in grade,etc as was done to me. Give me small quantity with very good quality vs the paper mill promotions anyday. The Black Belt must count for something more than ego or money!
Thank you Rick.

I don't see any reason to pretend that an art that I teach doesn't suffer from this problem. Though I suppose that I can afford to be objective since I don't promote blackbelts myself.

I'm going to respond to your last sentence about the blackbelt counting for something more than ego or money.

The black belt is an insignia of rank. It signifies the rank of yudansha (yudanja in Korean arts, but I digress). So, if something that symbolizes the rank is worn, then the issue is less the article of clothing itself but the rank that it proclaims has been bestowed upon the wearer.

Once a rank is attached to a specific accessory, such as a belt or a sash, then the question arises as to what merit or qualifications the bearer of the rank possesses in order to have been given the rank. Unfortunately, rank of all sorts has been bought, sold, or otherwise traded in many areas, including martial arts, unfortunately.

I see the rank of first dan (belt or no, as we don't wear a belt in kendo) as meaning that the holder is proficient in the style and is a proficient fighter in the style. Not unbeatable, but proficient. Also, a yudansha should be able to handle themselves against anyone. Not beat anyone, but maintain composure and 'handle' themselves. If their mommy needs to hold their hand from the car to the dojo then they should not be wearing a blackbelt.

For styles that wear a black belt, the belt is there for the benefit of the students. I as a beginner know which students I should be asking for help if I cannot speak directly to the instructor.

Unless the instructor is running a class of over fifty people, I don't see the black belt as being of any benefit to him or her. In most dojos, the class sizes are small enough that the instructor knows the relative progress of each of the students.

So, I can go to a black belt factory dojo and essentially pay for the rank and associated belt or belts, have minimal ability, and unless I am tested in some fashion (such as attacked), my purchassed rank will do just fine.

On the other hand, and for probably less money, I can go to a school that trains you well and pushes you hard, train hard outside of class, and become proficient in the style, learning the curriculum and performing at a level that anyone coming into the school will know that I have the skills, even if I'm training in sweats and not wearing a belt. I'd rather have the skills than be a paper tiger. I'd rather be a good blue belt than an undeserving blackbelt.

My last comment is that I agree that a blackbelt should mean more than ego and paid testing fees because anyone with any sense can tell that the school is a crock when they see unskilled blackbelts performing on the mats. Such schools do very well attracting kids who want a belt and parents who want to check off the "my kid has a blackbelt" box and move on to the next activity. But serious practitioners, the kind that give the school a solid reputation, will avoid such schools.

Daniel

Jitsumania
11th February 2009, 06:04
If you'll humor me:

Why?

In my opinion if you have to ask this question your time working toward or having achieved a Black Belt has been a bit deficient in the philosophical arena of what it is to hold Yudansha rank. Jim and Daniel's posts before this response have done more than an adequate job as to explain the why, but since the question was directed to me I will answer you with this:

"On the road to enlightenment chop wood and carry water and on the way back chop wood and carry water"

Ponder this:
The tatami will purge you of delusions or misconceptions you may have of yourself or others no matter how Black your belt may be. If you purchase it (belt that is) the tatami will offer you your reward in full.

ssanutokh
11th February 2009, 16:24
Interesting thread.


Jim Yang wrote:
Because upon earning your black belt you should realize an inescapable truth: the color of the belt you're wearing symbolizes the result of dedication, pain, sacrifice, triumphs, forging the bonds of a common brotherhood, and pursuing the further depths of one's discipline; and most importantly, it should signal the acknowledgment of a very salient realization: the black belt is a road-sign at the beginning of the journey, not the end. (There really is no end)

OK, I concur, on the basis of your use of the term 'should'. A further question: If you've put in the dedication, pain, and sacrifice, forged bonds of common brotherhood, achieved various triumphs and pursued the further depths of your discipline, after all that, why should the color of your belt matter at all? Seems to me the journey would be reward enough in itself, and after all that, receiving a black belt would be kind of an afterthought.


Daniel Sullivan wrote:
The black belt is an insignia of rank. It signifies the rank of yudansha (yudanja in Korean arts, but I digress). So, if something that symbolizes the rank is worn, then the issue is less the article of clothing itself but the rank that it proclaims has been bestowed upon the wearer.

Once a rank is attached to a specific accessory, such as a belt or a sash, then the question arises as to what merit or qualifications the bearer of the rank possesses in order to have been given the rank. Unfortunately, rank of all sorts has been bought, sold, or otherwise traded in many areas, including martial arts, unfortunately.

...

So, I can go to a black belt factory dojo and essentially pay for the rank and associated belt or belts, have minimal ability, and unless I am tested in some fashion (such as attacked), my purchassed rank will do just fine.

Are we discussing rank as opposed to competence, or is the assumption made that rank correctly *reflects* competence?


Daniel Sullivan wrote:
I see the rank of first dan (belt or no, as we don't wear a belt in kendo) as meaning that the holder is proficient in the style and is a proficient fighter in the style. Not unbeatable, but proficient. Also, a yudansha should be able to handle themselves against anyone. Not beat anyone, but maintain composure and 'handle' themselves. If their mommy needs to hold their hand from the car to the dojo then they should not be wearing a blackbelt.

Sure, but again, we're discussing 'should'. As to why rank is important at all, I see you've adress that in the next quote...


Daniel Sullivan wrote:
For styles that wear a black belt, the belt is there for the benefit of the students. I as a beginner know which students I should be asking for help if I cannot speak directly to the instructor.

Unless the instructor is running a class of over fifty people, I don't see the black belt as being of any benefit to him or her. In most dojos, the class sizes are small enough that the instructor knows the relative progress of each of the students.

Ah-HA! A practical answer. This I buy completely - the belt as an indicator to students concerned with whom they can ask for help. Absolutely.

However. I imagine a beginning student can get help from any number of seniors, not just those wearing a black belt.


Daniel Sullivan wrote:
On the other hand, and for probably less money, I can go to a school that trains you well and pushes you hard, train hard outside of class, and become proficient in the style, learning the curriculum and performing at a level that anyone coming into the school will know that I have the skills, even if I'm training in sweats and not wearing a belt. I'd rather have the skills than be a paper tiger. I'd rather be a good blue belt than an undeserving blackbelt.

Yes. This statement addresses the spirit in which my question was asked.

Let's paint the scenario:

---

It's a rainy night. Our hero is walking home from an evening drinking with friends. SUDDENLY, three scarred and bemuscled thugs jump out from behind a dumpster and approach menacingly!

Our hero is calm, alert. With unshakable confidence, he reaches into his satchel, and produces...

A BLACK belt!

The thugs, shaken to their cores, drop their weapons and back away slowly, mumbling apologies.

Disaster averted, our hero continues home.

---

If/When it comes time to make use of one's training, this is not how it works - no matter what color belt you wear on the mat.


Daniel Sullivan wrote:
My last comment is that I agree that a blackbelt should mean more than ego and paid testing fees because anyone with any sense can tell that the school is a crock when they see unskilled blackbelts performing on the mats. Such schools do very well attracting kids who want a belt and parents who want to check off the "my kid has a blackbelt" box and move on to the next activity. But serious practitioners, the kind that give the school a solid reputation, will avoid such schools.

As an aside, do you suppose folks would avoid those schools if everyone wore sweats and T-shirts?


Rick Torres wrote:
In my opinion if you have to ask this question your time working toward or having achieved a Black Belt has been a bit deficient in the philosophical arena of what it is to hold Yudansha rank.

I understand where you're coming from. Fortunately, I've never spent a day of my life working towards rank or a new belt color. I've put in quite a lot of time, however, into learning how to get out of the way when someone's trying to hurt me, and somewhat less time into figuring out how to hurt them back.

As an added bonus to those things, my time on the mat has also led to improved performance in my business, as well as a more conscientious attitude towards getting things done around the house, which has had a profoundly positive impact on my relationship with my wife. Additionally, I've also picked up a thing or two about saying 'I don't know' when I don't - a hard lesson, and one I don't recommend learning on the mat. :D

I don't know why a black belt is important, and I'm trying to understand. It has seemed to me like this infatuation with the black belt is an assumption nearly everyone makes, and I'd like to get to the bottom of it. If you're willing to help me with that, that'd be nifty.


Rick Torres
Jim and Daniel's posts before this response have done more than an adequate job as to explain the why, but since the question was directed to me I will answer you with this:

"On the road to enlightenment chop wood and carry water and on the way back chop wood and carry water"

Ponder this:
The tatami will purge you of delusions or misconceptions you may have of yourself or others no matter how Black your belt may be. If you purchase it (belt that is) the tatami will offer you your reward in full.

*grin*

I like it. Thank you.

Looking forward to more discussion on this fascinating topic.

Daniel Sullivan
11th February 2009, 18:02
Hello Carl,

Why is rank important?

Aside from the differentiation between master and student, it is only important as a credential.

Why is the credential important?

A. If it is required by a local, state or national law in order to teach, it is important. I don't know of any place where this is the case, but I've heard of weirder laws.

B. If one is running a school that is dependent upon some form of payment from the students or donations from outside, those financial contributors are often more comfortable with paying an individual who is credentialed.

C. To be accepted for a teaching position at a school. In this regard it is no different than a college degree.

D. It is required for a specific level of competition (usually national and international) by some sanctioning bodies in some arts, such as USAT for example (TKD).

E. Lastly, because rank in MA and the accompanying belt is so ingrained in the minds of both the public and the MA community, anyone without a level of rank risks being called a fake (deservingly or not) if they don't have it.

Those are the only practical reasons that I can think of for having rank. Not bad reasons, but as you can see, none of them have anything to do with skill level or competency.

Daniel

Daniel Sullivan
11th February 2009, 18:08
As an aside, do you suppose folks would avoid those schools if everyone wore sweats and T-shirts?Yes. The turnoff is lousy training, not fancy keikogis and belts.

Sadly, a good school with outstanding training may be passed over if they are wearing sweats and T-shirts. The ignorant will assume that the folks with fancy gis and belts know more and some of the serious will decry the school as not traditional.

Daniel

ssanutokh
11th February 2009, 18:49
Thank you, Daniel. You've given me a lot to chew on.

Daniel Sullivan
11th February 2009, 20:05
You're welcome, Carl.

Personally, I feel that rank can be a very useful tool within an organization. It gives everyone looking at the structure an idea of who has been training for how long and hopefully a rough idea of skill level.

One problem is that above a certain point, the level of skill tends to be in different areas. I am not a tournament champion, though I hold my own in competition and even have some trophies. On the other hand, I am analytical and can break down the techniques and strategies and communicate them to others in a way that they can use and benefit from.

On the other hand, a guy or gal who doesn't have the temperment for teaching may just plug and chug in personal training and be an awesome competitor with an unbelievable level of execution.

Yet both of us may be the same rank.

Another is that rank tends to get used as almost a multi level marketing tool. For example:

"I'm a fifth dan and my upline is a seventh dan in the business.. er.. art. I have seven fourth dans under me and each of them has produced ten or more blackbelts from first through third. One guy even has twenty first dans, ten second, and eight third dans! He's really going places! Now if you get in to my school, you'll be a part of a growing network of yudansha."

That sounds great to the uninitiated. Looks good in an add for your school in Blackbelt Magazine too. But what does it say about you?

The fifth dan in this scenario isn't talking about blackbelts that he is personally bringing up. Maybe he's eighty seven and retired. But maybe he just struts around his 10,000 square foot dojo in full samurai regalia and speaks in riddles to students and doesn't do any training at all.

So often, high ranking masters pawn off the working with white belts and low belts onto senior students and sometimes onto green belts and blue belts. This is a big problem because generally, green belts and blue belts haven't internalized the techniques to where they can full explain the techique and fully evaluate how the beginner is doing. I think that the higher one's rank (assuming that their ability, depth of knowledge, and teachign ability correspond), the more time that one should spend with white belts and low belts. Building a solid foundation is very important, and contributes to having good, solid yudansha with solid basics.

Also, high ranking practitioners who continue to work with the beginning students stay grounded in the basics and hopefully don't develope the over inflated egos that some do.

Daniel

Jitsumania
11th February 2009, 23:06
Interesting thread.



OK, I concur, on the basis of your use of the term 'should'. A further question: If you've put in the dedication, pain, and sacrifice, forged bonds of common brotherhood, achieved various triumphs and pursued the further depths of your discipline, after all that, why should the color of your belt matter at all? Seems to me the journey would be reward enough in itself, and after all that, receiving a black belt would be kind of an afterthought.



Are we discussing rank as opposed to competence, or is the assumption made that rank correctly *reflects* competence?

The ideal is that rank does reflect competancy. Why you ask....because that is what it was meant to do. Society has always had symbols, labels etc to differentiate competancy of individuals. We must remember also that the belt system is a relatively new concept whose inception was developed by an educator and Judo founder (Jigoro Kano). The fact that we have bastardized the system does not reflect a flaw of the system but the practitioners involved in the system.As usual in society corruption occurs due to obtaining monatery or ego gain or both!




Sure, but again, we're discussing 'should'. As to why rank is important at all, I see you've adress that in the next quote...



Ah-HA! A practical answer. This I buy completely - the belt as an indicator to students concerned with whom they can ask for help. Absolutely.

However. I imagine a beginning student can get help from any number of seniors, not just those wearing a black belt.

This goes to the point. How are we going to distingush the senior student from the junior student if there is not a que for distinguishing who is who. A beginning student may do a technique to 65% correctness and it may appear correct to another beginning student but in fact the technique is flawed. The higher the belt level (in most cases) will minimize the margin of error due to time in grade and frequency of practice with the technique. Higher belt levels have usually spent more time under the corrective eye of their Instructor




Yes. This statement addresses the spirit in which my question was asked.

Let's paint the scenario:

---

It's a rainy night. Our hero is walking home from an evening drinking with friends. SUDDENLY, three scarred and bemuscled thugs jump out from behind a dumpster and approach menacingly!

Our hero is calm, alert. With unshakable confidence, he reaches into his satchel, and produces...

A BLACK belt!

The thugs, shaken to their cores, drop their weapons and back away slowly, mumbling apologies.

Disaster averted, our hero continues home.


Ummm lets try a better and more realistic ending:
reaches into his waistband and produces...... a Glock 26 with 12 9mm jacketed hollow point hydroshock rounds in the clip.

The thugs, shaken to their cores, drop their weapons and back away slowly, mumbling apologies.

Disaster averted, our hero reholsters weapon and continues home while dialing 911 on his cell phone.
Who says Black Belts don't carry guns! I do, and do it legally!




If/When it comes time to make use of one's training, this is not how it works - no matter what color belt you wear on the mat.

The higher the belt level the greater proficiency you have with technique. This is so because of kinesthetic memory (muscle memory) due to higher frequency of technique repetition during practice. A white belt will not have the same proficiency with a mawashi geri or a kote gaeshi , (insert other techniqe)that a brown belt will have. In a conflict situation adrenaline will be flowing and if your technique is not "in you" you will not be able to use it.





I understand where you're coming from. Fortunately, I've never spent a day of my life working towards rank or a new belt color. I've put in quite a lot of time, however, into learning how to get out of the way when someone's trying to hurt me, and somewhat less time into figuring out how to hurt them back.

As an added bonus to those things, my time on the mat has also led to improved performance in my business, as well as a more conscientious attitude towards getting things done around the house, which has had a profoundly positive impact on my relationship with my wife. Additionally, I've also picked up a thing or two about saying 'I don't know' when I don't - a hard lesson, and one I don't recommend learning on the mat. :D

I don't know why a black belt is important, and I'm trying to understand. It has seemed to me like this infatuation with the black belt is an assumption nearly everyone makes, and I'd like to get to the bottom of it. If you're willing to help me with that, that'd be nifty.



*grin*

I like it. Thank you.

Looking forward to more discussion on this fascinating topic.

As a practiotioner of Aikido (among other arts) I too have spent alot of time learning to move out of harms way (teach students to do same). The problem with this one paradigm or approach is that some attackers will keep coming untill they subdue you or worse. That is why I have spent time learning (and teaching) how to counter and subdue or worse if the situation calls for it. Aikido and Jujitsu are good for teaching this, as well as other arts. Balance is essential if we are to survive in dangerous encounters (ie never take a knife to a gunfight unless you are extremely skilled with your knife).

Lessons on the mat will always transfer into our daily living if we are willing to recieve the lesson(s) and apply them.

The Black Belt will have the significance to the practitioner that he or she attaches to it. Truly in the end it only holds your Gi closed.
You can wear a Black Belt or you can be a Black Belt.
Student attrition in training is high prior to ever recieving Black Belt rank.
The Belt says "I stayed while others quit"

skylinerR32
12th February 2009, 07:47
Both Daniel and Rick have posted excellent and thorough responses to the questions raised, but since I've got a case of insomnia, I'll chime in with my perspective here and there.



As an aside, do you suppose folks would avoid those schools if everyone wore sweats and T-shirts?


First off, if T-shirts and sweats were the norm for all Asian martial arts, I would have saved mucho $$$$ spent on uniforms throughout the years.
Secondly, in the Russian Martial Art of Systema for example, t-shirts and loose or comfortable pants are the norm, there are no belts, and instructors wear t-shirts identifying them as such if they so choose. And I know of very talented people in classical koryu and gendai arts who cross-train with the Systema folks on a regular (and some full-time) basis because they find it truly worthwhile. So, no, I don't think people would avoid such schools if only for the fact that most would react upon encountering such a scenario with a decreased sense of being an outsider not knowing the formal dress code and accompanying etiquette.


Seems to me the journey would be reward enough in itself, and after all that, receiving a black belt would be kind of an afterthought.

The Zen Answer: Exactly ;) So why does the seeker not realize what he has sought?

The more or less analytical one: The original intent of the founder of Judo, Jigoro Kano, was to introduce a systematized, non-lethal martial art into the Japanese education system to cultivate physical strength, and perhaps more importantly, development and growth of good character. To me, Kano's pursuit of the martial arts was to preserve and modernize Budo so that it allowed for both techniques and practitioners to evolve beyond lethal means as the primary or only options in conflict while bestowing practitioners with the correlating lessons of self-discipline and good character. The introduction of the modern dan ranking system with Judo signaled stages of physical AND mental progress on the part of the student (FTR, mental progress for me equates with maturity as much as sound judgment and tactics).

And here is the inherent problem I've touched upon in an earlier post: do the students of today that achieve shodan honestly possess both the physical proficiency and maturity of character that Kano had envisioned for the ranking and representation of the art itself as a benefit to humanity as a whole?

If the black belt, or any other belt for that matter, truly does not matter, since there cannot be a universally agreed upon standard of the skills and qualifications for a black belt even within a single art, then we are faced with the proposition of rank/skill relativism that would negate any value of granting or earning rank. The obvious solution would be one-on-one contests to settle issues of authority or skill, but somehow I think that it would defeat the original purpose of 'self-defense' and 'self-improvement'. The solution, well actually, to paraphrase one possible solution from a college philosophy professor of mine:

"The absence of absolutes in the realm of whatever philosophical discipline you're trying to study or support does not mean that all arguments are of equal value. In any field, there exist better and worse arguments and propositions that base themselves upon facts and substantive discourses aimed towards partially resolving the basis of the truth or the good."
Why does rank matter? For all the reasons previously stated. Why does rank not matter? For all the reasons stated.

Food for Thought from The Karate Kid:
Daniel: Hey - you ever get into fights when you were a kid?
Miyagi: Huh - plenty.
Daniel: Yeah, but it wasn't like the problem I have, right?
Miyagi: Why? Fighting fighting. Same same.
Daniel: Yeah, but you knew karate.
Miyagi: Someone always know more.
Daniel: You mean there were times when you were scared to fight?
Miyagi: Always scare. Miyagi hate fighting.
Daniel: Yeah, but you like karate.
Miyagi: So?
Daniel: So, karate's fighting. You train to fight.
Miyagi: That what you think?
Daniel: [pondering] No.
Miyagi: Then why train?
Daniel: [thinks] So I won't have to fight.
Miyagi: [laughs] Miyagi have hope for you.


Good night, or early morning depending on how you look at it.

Jim Yang

gendzwil
12th February 2009, 14:48
I see the rank of first dan (belt or no, as we don't wear a belt in kendo) as meaning that the holder is proficient in the style and is a proficient fighter in the style. Not unbeatable, but proficient.I don't see why people get so hung up on that colour. Rank only has meaning within a particular school, or if you're lucky, within that school's umbrella organization. I find it interesting that you would characterize shodan as being proficient coming from kendo, where shodan for most adult beginners represents 2 years of hobby practice. Where I come from, a shodan in kendo is roughly equivalent to an orange belt in judo, skill-wise. And as long as everyone understands that, that is just fine. The kendo community pays almost no attention to kyu ranks and in fact regards shodan through sandan as kid's ranks.

So you can't compare shodan in this art to shodan in that one meaningfully. I find people who get all huffy about the sanctity of the "black belt" are entirely too hung up on it themselves. We get that happening here in judo, where the old guard at one time kept raising the bar for shodan because in their minds, it was some mystical thing. Now it takes nearly 10 years to get a judo shodan where I live. It's just shodan, ferchrissake. The "sho" means beginning or basic, not "qualified to instruct".

Markaso
12th February 2009, 15:19
Wow ..... good topic!

Does a Black belt mean anything?

When I first started martial arts ......many years ago .... I started with Tae Kwon Do. I was always taught that the rank of black belt was just the beginning. When I came to Japan, and started learning Go Jyu Ryu, I went to a very traditional Dojo. I learned that the belt, what ever level .... was just the beginning but the black belt....at least Shodan, was really the beginning of learning. Yes, there were many cases where I saw black belts that were young. In Japan, there are what you call junior black belts. I beleive at 16 they must qualify for a senior(adult) black belt again.

Does a black belt mean anything .......to those who hold one ....yes! To those who lower their standards in order to award one .....NO! Yes ... there are many Macdojos out there and there are a lot of so called instructors that give black belts in order to stay in business.

When martial arts are not treated as a sport or business and the standards are not lowered ...... then the black belt may once again actually have more meaning than it seems to have now.

I know that I may have opened up a can of worms ...... oh well.

Daniel Sullivan
12th February 2009, 15:30
Well said, Neil.

I think that the big problem is not the the blackbelt is somehow mystical or sacred, but that what it represents (basic proficiency in a style as taught by the instructor who bestowed the belt) has been not inflated, but deflated so that people who have essentially very little, if any proficiency are given the belt in exchange for paying the testing fee.

Even this is unimportant except that a good number of these people, often children, actually believe that they can defend themselves because they have a black belt, when in fact, they cannot.

Personally, I'm not the belt police. If the parents shelling out 500 bucks for the belt cannot, after watching their child flail about for an hour and a half haven't figured out that the little tyke isn't proficient, then they're intentionally ignorant and unfortunately, cooperating in their own conning.

A blackbelt should merely represent knowledge and proficicency in Kyu rank material. Nothing more. A black belt is sometimes characterized as one who has learned how to learn. In this, a blackbelt has the knowledge of the mechanics of the system in which they study to be able to advance and improve their technique, both with the guidance of an instructor and in the course of their own practice. They can connect the dots, if you will.

Beyond that, the black belt contrasts well with a white keikogi.

Daniel

gendzwil
12th February 2009, 15:58
Daniel, I'm just having trouble resolving what you're saying with the reality of what a kendo shodan is in your neck of the woods. I don't really think they are proficient in the basics particularily, and I don't think they have sufficient knowledge to connect any dots. They typically have a total practice time of maybe 400 hours. Think about that - if they approached it like a job, that would mean they've had 10 weeks of fulltime practice.

skylinerR32
12th February 2009, 16:15
A blackbelt should merely represent knowledge and proficicency in Kyu rank material. Nothing more. A black belt is sometimes characterized as one who has learned how to learn. In this, a blackbelt has the knowledge of the mechanics of the system in which they study to be able to advance and improve their technique, both with the guidance of an instructor and in the course of their own practice. They can connect the dots, if you will.

Beyond that, the black belt contrasts well with a white keikogi.

Here's a question for those of us who got our introduction to the martial arts via Tae Kwon Do (and I suspect the experience includes many), if the current evaluation of the black belt within any singular organization pertains to competent technical skill, have the philosophical tenets of the art been wholly discarded and nothing more than lofty ideals impractical and irrelevant towards the execution of physical techniques?

I still remember when starting out in Tae Kwon Do that my instructor emphasized the guiding tenets of the art: Courtesy, Integrity, Perseverance, Self-Control, and Indomitable Spirit. In fact, I still remember writing essays on those topics as a 14 year old kid while part of the school (he always said that the weekly essays were a good way to keep tabs of what we were up to outside of class and gave him good perspective on how we sorted out the 'do' beyond kicking and punching).

And since this thread is in the Karate Forum, what of Gichin Funakoshi's "Twenty Precepts of Karate" for Shotokan? What would his interpretation be of the modern Shotokan legacy where the karate-ka is suppose to exemplify the guiding ideals of humility, compassion, patience and stoic conduct for his or her art?

Jim Yang

Daniel Sullivan
12th February 2009, 16:15
Tell me about it, Neil.

There are people who tested for first dan in the same amount of time that I did, but who showed up once a week and would often miss class for a week or two here and there, while I showed up three and four times a week in addition to practice outside of class.

I don't get particularly riled up about the blackbelt/first dan personally. I just train. Rank is a byproduct of training and time in grade, but not my goal.

Out of curiosity, when you say, 'your neck of the woods,' DC area?

Daniel

gendzwil
12th February 2009, 16:29
Out of curiosity, when you say, 'your neck of the woods,' DC area?
Yes, that's what I assumed from your Maryland location. I've trained with Shidogakuin in Rockville and Herndon, the GW crew and the Capital Budokai guys and years ago at GMU. So I know a lot of the people and what the levels are, and they're about the same for recreational players starting as adults in our area and other places I've trained. It's fairly consistent.

Jitsumania
12th February 2009, 20:42
Wow ..... good topic!

Does a Black belt mean anything?

When I first started martial arts ......many years ago .... I started with Tae Kwon Do. I was always taught that the rank of black belt was just the beginning. When I came to Japan, and started learning Go Jyu Ryu, I went to a very traditional Dojo. I learned that the belt, what ever level .... was just the beginning but the black belt....at least Shodan, was really the beginning of learning. Yes, there were many cases where I saw black belts that were young. In Japan, there are what you call junior black belts. I beleive at 16 they must qualify for a senior(adult) black belt again.

Does a black belt mean anything .......to those who hold one ....yes! To those who lower their standards in order to award one .....NO! Yes ... there are many Macdojos out there and there are a lot of so called instructors that give black belts in order to stay in business.

When martial arts are not treated as a sport or business and the standards are not lowered ...... then the black belt may once again actually have more meaning than it seems to have now.

I know that I may have opened up a can of worms ...... oh well.

Being an Instructor gives me the right to choose who I want to train or not. I inform all my students that there are no Black Belt wonders or phenoms produced in this Dojo, so forget the 2 year Black Belt program. I usually weed the ego or belt seekers out by informing them that Black Belt rank usually occurs after working through a 7 belt system that leads to Shodan in 4 1/2 - 5 years requiring practice a minimum of 2x per week (usually practice sessions are 2 1/2 -3 hours). Kids class is about 1 hour /3x per week.
Anything worth having is worth working and waiting for.
It is so unfortunate that the buisness treatment of the MA has diluted what should be taught and learned by teacher and student alike. One of my favorite phrases is "Maybe this Dojo is not for.....insert: you, your child,etc..
The statement is not meant to be calous but to be truthfull because conflicting philosophies or goals usually leads to conflict, hurt feelings, unrealistic expectations, etc.When expectations are clear everybody is usually on the same page and operating in unity.
I am so glad I have a day job where I make my bread and butter and teach by night at my own Dojo:D. Don't get me wrong, Income is good, but thats not what it is all about. Alot of some great masters I have met have day jobs:).

Markaso
12th February 2009, 23:15
Mr. Torres


Yeah, being an instructor in your own dojo does have it's advantages. I have been in Japan now for around 20 years studyng the same style. The first Dojo that I started training in was very traditional and for an adult, it took an average of 3 years to just be able to test for your black belt. That was at a rate of two to three times a week of practice for about 2-2 1/2 hrs per session.

I myself went through a Dojo test as well as an association test up to my Yon Dan (4th degree black belt). For the first to fourth association test, we had a written test .......not fun as it was all in Japanese and my Japanese is not THAT good!

Yes, I'm now lucky enough to practice / teach 4 times a week at 3 hrs a session. I am the head instructor at a university here and an assistant instructor at my Sensei's Dojo.

Just this past year I was awarded my Go Dan (5th). I need to wait another 5-6 years before I can ven test again. I don't mind the wait at all.......just getting older though. I love to practice as well as love being taught. I've been lucky to have two very good Sensei.

epramberg
13th February 2009, 13:36
If you'll humor me:

Why?

Well, there is no absolute mandate to have a skill ranking system. All of the Koryu styles got by for hundreds of years without any real ranks (but they do have a variety of levels of teaching licenses). In this situation, you are either good or you aren't.

However, IF you are going to have a ranking system it is to compare your students to each other to know at a simple glance who is more skillful than the others.

Daniel Sullivan
13th February 2009, 14:00
Here's a question for those of us who got our introduction to the martial arts via Tae Kwon Do (and I suspect the experience includes many), if the current evaluation of the black belt within any singular organization pertains to competent technical skill, have the philosophical tenets of the art been wholly discarded and nothing more than lofty ideals impractical and irrelevant towards the execution of physical techniques?
From what I have seen in my area, skill level is on the average not all that tremendous. You have a lot of people who are martial hobbyists, and the bulk of the schools, regardless of art, cater to this level of practitioner. Most all of the school in my area have some type of child program and of course, Taekwondo schools pretty much dominate the landscape.

I haven't seen much, if any emphasis on the tenets discussed in general classes. At the school where I teach (kendo and taekwondo), tenets and philosophy are modeled more than specifically addressed. I address philosophy a bit more in the kendo class than in the taekwondo class; my work is very much cut out for me in the taekwondo class in other areas and the kendo students tend to be more open to philosophy.

Near as I can tell, most of the martial arts schools in my area are commercial schools with an emphasis on belt acquisition and lots of patches and clubs for the kids.

Yes, there are exceptions. But not many.


I still remember when starting out in Tae Kwon Do that my instructor emphasized the guiding tenets of the art: Courtesy, Integrity, Perseverance, Self-Control, and Indomitable Spirit. In fact, I still remember writing essays on those topics as a 14 year old kid while part of the school (he always said that the weekly essays were a good way to keep tabs of what we were up to outside of class and gave him good perspective on how we sorted out the 'do' beyond kicking and punching).
The only time I have been required to write an essay at any school that I have been involved with was for shodan promotion.


And since this thread is in the Karate Forum, what of Gichin Funakoshi's "Twenty Precepts of Karate" for Shotokan? What would his interpretation be of the modern Shotokan legacy where the karate-ka is suppose to exemplify the guiding ideals of humility, compassion, patience and stoic conduct for his or her art?[
A good question, though I will defer to others, as I am not a current Shotokan practitioner (my last experience with Shotokan was about thirty years ago).

Daniel

yoshu
25th February 2009, 18:05
Hello! This is my first time on the message board. Personally I think the Black Belt is losing ground. My Sensei told me when he was a kid if someone said that he/she was a Black Belt, everyone would say WOW!!!!!!! He said now when someone says they are a Black Belt, everyone says what can you do? There are many reasons why the Black Belt is losing ground. Personally it makes me sad, because I worked 5 1/2 years to reach Shodan, and there's people who pay $500+ and get their's in 1-2 years. There's people who hole a low Dan rank (1st or 2nd) in two or three systems, and they go to an organzation and then BOOM he/she is a 5th Dan with only 15 years of training. It's sad because it's giving the REAL Black belts bad names. Even the Belt it's self is getting sad. Instead of there being Black, Red-White (or Red-Black), then Red (or Gold). Now it seems like that every level of Black Belt has a different "belt". I think something needs to be done to stop this.

Thanks,
A. Wilson

Daniel Sullivan
25th February 2009, 20:00
I'm personally less concerned about the specific time to black belt. A lot depends on the amount of curriculum that student is required to learn and how much they train.

One guy goes to a one hour class twice a week for two years and that's 832 hours. Another guy goes four days a week and that's 1664. Still only two years, but oh what a difference between the two people. A third guy who makes five days a week for 2,080 hours of class in two years.

Also, you can spend four years in class and if you spend four years training like the typical hobbyist (90% of MA students), there won't be all that much difference between two or four years.

Since we're speaking of black belts in the general, I'll address taekwondo schools, which comprise the majority of "karate" schools in the country, and are probably the ones most responsible for the state of the modern black belt. Never mind that taekwondo isn't a ryu of karate, more than two thirds read 'karate' on the door, and to the general public, its all just karate anyway.

Kukkiwon taekwondo curriculum is pretty minimalist. You'd have a hard time pulling four years out of someone with just Kukkiwon curriculum. A good number of taekwondo schools add weapons and other curriculum to keep students interested after blackbelt.

Personally, I feel that the bulk of schools have collectively lost the ability to push the students to do more than just gear up for the next level belt test. That, and I know of few, if any schools in my area where anyone ever fails a colored belt test. In the years I've been at my own school, I've seen only two people in an adult class have to retest for a colored belt.

There is simply too much at stake for most schools to not pass a kyu grade student. To much in terms of money and such. Unfortunately, the kyu grades are the ones that should be the most diligently worked with and often, they're just seen as paying customers on the way through, expected to leave after they receive a black belt.

Another issue is that schools have a mentality that more is better. "We promote more blackbelts than anyone in the state" sort of mentality. Unfortunately, this actually attracts a lot of people for the wrong reasons, though I'm sure that its good for business.

Personally, I don't care how many blackbelts a school has. The black belt should represent a level of quality and a level of proficiency in the basics. I'd rather boast ten blue belts that are top notch than fifty black belts that look like yellow belts (yes, alarmingly, I've seen a few).

Daniel

JS3
25th February 2009, 20:27
Personally, I feel that the bulk of schools have collectively lost the ability to push the students to do more than just gear up for the next level belt test. That, and I know of few, if any schools in my area where anyone ever fails a colored belt test. In the years I've been at my own school, I've seen only two people in an adult class have to retest for a colored belt.

There is simply too much at stake for most schools to not pass a kyu grade student. To much in terms of money and such. Unfortunately, the kyu grades are the ones that should be the most diligently worked with and often, they're just seen as paying customers on the way through, expected to leave after they receive a black belt.


I know an instructor that will actualy demote you (yes even take away your black belt) if you do bad enough on a grading.

Markaso
26th February 2009, 00:42
Time .......yeah it counts theoretically. I mean you can go to a dojo for 1 hour a month and be there for years and still not be any good of course. But time is a good indicator as to how long someone has been practicing. How may times a week/How many hours a session/ How many years.

Yes, there are people out there that have put in the time and effort, I mean real and honest effort, into their practice. These people, in my opinion should be held in aww to some extent. there are different levels to black belts .....why?? Well I believe it is because the standards are different. I agree it isn't about the money......or at least it shouldn't be. You should get what you put into it ......not money wise ......I mean effort. You have to keep the effort and put more effort into the next level and so on.

My Tae kwon do Sensei and my first Go Jyu Ryu Sensei both told me the same thing ........." A shodan is just the begining of "REAL" training. Anything before that is warm up or getting to know about the basics."


I believe that is true for me and to those I teach. Yes, I think a Black belt does mean something ....... There are no short cuts!! It all comes down to practice .......!

Joseph Svinth
26th February 2009, 02:48
If you're serious about thinking about this topic, try Dave Lowry's new book, "The Karate Way: Discovering the Spirit of Practice" (Shambhala, 2009), ISBN 978-1-59030-647-5.

Otherwise, well, recognized that the belt is what it is: a belt. It is a piece of cloth. It has no will of its own. And, whether in the end you get buried in it, or it gets buried in the back of the storage room, along with all the other belts you've worn out or outgrown or simply moved beyond, it's still just a piece of cloth.

yoshu
26th February 2009, 03:32
You're right. I did get off target, i'm sorry for that. I agree with about boasting top notch kyu belts. There was a guy who came by the school last year he claimed a 3rd Dan in a Martial Arts, kickboxing training, and a Dan ranking in Japanese karate. His girlfriend (at the time) was talking him up, and when he came in for soarring (with a few friends) we were ready. I layed him out (I was a 1st Dan at the time), and one of the 3rd Kyus (now 1st kyu) manhandled him, it was sad. Sparring isn't everybody's thing, but the stuff that he was doing (sliding into the splits to grab my feet) gave him a bad rap. You're right about the two year training subject. Great people like Bill Wallace & Joe Lewis got their Black Belts real quick due to their commitment. Now I know every school is different about the testing process. In our organzation the test scores are viewed, then compaired. I'd didn't pass two people for their 2nd Kyu test, but they still got their belts. I was told that there was three judges, and since I was the only one that failed them, well then my view kinda didn't matter. That may be one of the problems with the Black Belts. If there's ten judges on the test pannel and if two don't think that the testers shouldn't pass, and others think they should, what's going to happend? A good school would want to find out the faults of the testers, but the bad ones would just pass them no matter what. Also I think most instructor are scared of losing students, especially Black Belts, so they "look the other way" most of the time. The easier it is more people stick around, the harder it is less people stick around. I wonder how many Black Belts can say that they had to have a hematoma drained off their bottom lip, after a full night of sparring? How many Black Belts can say that their instructor yelled at them because an entire list of corrections wasn't fixed in a day? A lot of the "old timers (said with respect)" can, but I bet very few of the "new blood" can. It's because of this problem is why all U.S Black Belts test in my Organzation, have to be held in front of the VPs of the org (usually at a camp). An instructor can't test the students without one of the VPs present. Reguardess of the instructor's rank. Too some instructors may've gotton burned out, so they're just trying to stay happy.
Yours in Budo.
A. Wilson

Sorros
26th February 2009, 03:56
What I understood is the black belt originally ment you knew the system.
Didn't mean you could fight, or were tough. I heard of some traditional Japanese schools that would not consider you worthy of teaching until you were fourth dan.
I recently went back to an old school I trained at years ago. We trained in the park at night.
It has sence grown to a whole dojo of about 20 black belt. Of all those black belts. only three or four really could do the system and maybe three really knew how to fight.

Daniel Sullivan
26th February 2009, 15:24
Good point, Terry.

I do think that perhaps, at least in the US, the blackbelt may suffer from over billing on one end and being over-inflated rank at the other.

In other words, the guys who held blackbelts in the US early on trained hard and were proficient fighers as a result. The combination of learning the system and training very hard in it resulted in an impressive individual by the time they received the belt. But the belt still only meant that they had learned and could execute the kyu grade curriculum.

Now, the blackbelt is used as a confidence builder and is handed out to people who show up for _______ amount of time and pay the testing fee, regardless of how well they either know or can execute the material. But the belt is supposed to mean that they have learned and can execute the kyu grade curriculum.

So the belt still means the same thing that it always did. But the way that it is perceived and the way that it is presented has differed from its actual meaning.

Daniel

JS3
26th February 2009, 15:24
If you're serious about thinking about this topic, try Dave Lowry's new book, "The Karate Way: Discovering the Spirit of Practice" (Shambhala, 2009), ISBN 978-1-59030-647-5.

Otherwise, well, recognized that the belt is what it is: a belt. It is a piece of cloth. It has no will of its own. And, whether in the end you get buried in it, or it gets buried in the back of the storage room, along with all the other belts you've worn out or outgrown or simply moved beyond, it's still just a piece of cloth.


Excerpt from The Karate Way
Chapter 14: What Does a Black Belt Mean? (http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalog/items/isbn/978-1-59030-647-5.cfm?selectedText=EXCERPT_CHAPTER)

Dave G
27th February 2009, 13:25
Quote:

"try Dave Lowry's new book".

.....I just placed my order. I know Dave Lowry and have trained with him in several arts over the years. He remains the the voice of logic and reason in these arts. The only thing better than reading his work is knowing him.

Markaso
27th February 2009, 15:19
Excerpt from The Karate Way
Chapter 14: What Does a Black Belt Mean? (http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalog/items/isbn/978-1-59030-647-5.cfm?selectedText=EXCERPT_CHAPTER)

Mr. Stitz

Thank you ..... That was a nice read.:toast: