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Ruediger
11th June 2000, 06:44
Hi all,

at Mugendo Budogu
http://budogu.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page16.html

one can find the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. Anybody (Mrs. Skoss, Mr. Power... http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif) heard of plans that someone will translate this into english? Not that i heard of such plans, but it would be like christmas and eastern at the same day if this happens. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif
I know (...no, i think that i know) that this (the translation) would be a rough job (maybe it's impossible http://216.10.1.92/ubb/frown.gif), but.... http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

Best Regards

Ruediger Meier

Uuupps... many smilies in my post http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Ruediger (edited 06-11-2000).]

Ruediger
11th June 2000, 06:53
Uuuhh, i'm getting old...

forgot to ask if there are "only" extant ryu listed in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, or are there also ryu listed in the book that didn't exist today.

Regards

Ruediger Meier

Rennis
12th June 2000, 02:49
The BRD lists pretty much eveything, both extant ryu and extinct. As for translating it for public release, I wouldn't hold my breath. Outside of the "giving frauds a loaded gun" issue that a large number of people have, just plain old translating it would be a beast of a project that probably no one in their right mind would willingly want to do. 1000 some pages of very very obscure kanji with the vast majority of it being old names and ryuha names, neither of which conform to standard readings. I think it would take years just to get the readings of the ryuha/ people names alone and that wouldn't mean that they would all be correct. I know I wouldn't touch that project with a ten foot pole...
Rennis

Daniel Lee
12th June 2000, 03:00
You might be interested to know Watatani's Bugei Ryuha Daijiten project is being carried on by the Bunbukan research group here in Japan.

A huge array of materials were left uncodified at his passing away, which are now continuing to be added to the original text.

In addition, densho studies are offered, with present texts including sojutsu series, bokuden-ryu, shinto-ryu and others.

For more information on the Bunbukan, please see:
http://www.bokuden.or.jp/~bunbkan/

Best,

************************
Daniel Lee

[This message has been edited by Daniel Lee (edited 06-11-2000).]

Ruediger
12th June 2000, 10:59
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rennis:
The BRD lists pretty much eveything, both extant ryu and extinct. As for translating it for public release, I wouldn't hold my breath. Outside of the "giving frauds a loaded gun" issue that a large number of people have, just plain old translating it would be a beast of a project that probably no one in their right mind would willingly want to do. 1000 some pages of very very obscure kanji with the vast majority of it being old names and ryuha names, neither of which conform to standard readings. I think it would take years just to get the readings of the ryuha/ people names alone and that wouldn't mean that they would all be correct. I know I wouldn't touch that project with a ten foot pole...
Rennis<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I expected to get this answer... http://216.10.1.92/ubb/frown.gif
So christmas and eastern will still stay seperat http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

Thank's for the replies

Best Regards

Ruediger Meier

Mark Raugas
13th June 2000, 06:48
I think it would be real pain to translate. . . It is a good starting point, if you have good enough Japanese and want details about a particular art. . . I wouldn't say it is perfect though. . . It has a number of minimalistic entries (style name and one art name only, without any details), and someone (I forget who) said here or on the iaido-list that some of the information in it in certain cases is not cross-checked or verified. So, I would say it is a useful tool, but I doubt everyone needs one, especially if you don't easily read Japanese, given its price.

I think the Koryu Books ryu guide should provide more information, and slowly but surely grow over the years into an english language version of Watatani. . .

Mark Raugas



[This message has been edited by Mark Raugas (edited 06-13-2000).]

Ruediger
13th June 2000, 17:34
Hi Mark,

you're right, the infos at koryu.com are very helpful, if one is looking for proofed infos about classical ryu of japan and it is one of my "first address internet sites" in the www.
It's also not that i think that, if i own the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten (and could read it http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif... shame... my japanese is so poor http://216.10.1.92/ubb/redface.gif), all my questions will be gone. But sometimes only to own such a book.... maybe you guys here know what i mean (or am i the only insane person here... http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif).

Best Regards

Ruediger Meier

P.S.: Waiting for the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten edition on CD - Rom http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

Tom Christy
7th June 2001, 04:16
Hello all,

I am doing a little informal research at the moment and could use the assistance of this forum's more experienced members. Could anyone give me a little biographical information on Watatani Kiyoshi (of BRDJ fame)? The only information that I have been able to locate so far is a blurb in an old article of Hoplos that states that Professor Watatani was "Japan's foremost authority on the historical development of his country's martial culture" and that he was "a skilled exponent of kenjutsu who authored more than fifty books about Japanese martial culture".

Thank you for your consideration.

Daniel Lee
7th June 2001, 05:33
Bunbukan is an organisation that is continuing the research of Kiyoshi WATATANI as part of its work focus. For more information on Watatani (in Japanese), why not check out the following URL?

http://www.bokuden.or.jp/~bunbkan

Good luck!

Meik Skoss
7th June 2001, 14:04
From the *Bugei ryuha daijiten* (paraphrased):

Watatani Kiyoshi was born in Wakayama City in Meiji 36 (1904). A descendant of a gunnery instructor (Yoshikawa-ryu hojutsu) of the Kishu domain, his father was a minister. After his father's death, he was sent to live with relatives, first in Awajijima and then in Kobe, where he was adopted by the Watatani family. He graduated from Waseda University and was a member of the the Bungeika Kyokai. He has written and edited more than forty books in a variety of fields, including history, historical novels, interpreting, geography of Edo, research (methods?), as well as twenty-five books on the history of martial arts and traditions.

Yamada Tadashi was born in Aichi Prefecture in Taisho 12 (1923). He became interested in the history of martial arts while he was a student at Tsushima High School. On graduating from a teacher training course at Nagoya Higher Industrial Arts School, he was a teacher at many schools in the area. He began working at a local school for the blind after losing the sight of both eyes.

Draeger once told me that Watatani Sensei was quite skillful with a sword, but I've no idea what style he had studied or anything about his martial arts background. I don't know anything about Yamada Sensei's history in martial arts, though I suppose he did something or other at one time in his life. Most men of that time did, if only as part of their compulsory education.

Hope this helps.

Tom Christy
7th June 2001, 15:12
Gentlemen,

I appreciate your assistance. My ability to read Japanese could only charitably be called elementary. I'm aware of the importance of the BRDJ as a research tool, but had very little information as to the men responsible for it. Thank you for taking the time to answer my question.

Regards,

W.Bodiford
8th June 2001, 21:12
The website listed above (http://www.bokuden.or.jp/~bunbkan/ch0/wata01.htm) states that Watatani studied Ryugoryu kenjutsu (of the style transmitted in Takino Domain) when he was in middle school.

Although some people might have praised Watatani as "Japan's foremost authority on the historical development of his country's martial culture" we must remember that he was not a scholar. He was a professional writer with an amateur interest in old martial art texts which he collected and published.

Tokyo Kyoiku Daigaku (Tokyo Educational University), now reconsitituted as Tsukuba University, houses Japan's oldest center for the study of the historical development of martial arts. Any one of the professors who have been active there (people like Imamura Yoshio, Tominaga Kengo, and Watanabe Ichiro) made greater contributions to our understanding of this topic.

Tom Christy
8th June 2001, 23:18
Dr. Bodiford,

Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to my query. The information that you provided was very helpful.

Regards,

Prince Loeffler
9th June 2008, 05:47
Excuse me for reviving this thread. But I thought I'd keep it all in one place. Does this book include the karate of Okinawa and Japan ?

fifthchamber
9th June 2008, 06:18
Hi Prince...

Yep, it does..

Regards

Prince Loeffler
9th June 2008, 06:40
Hi Prince...

Yep, it does..

Regards

That's awesome ! One last question What page is Matsubayashi Ryu on ? Thanks I really appreciate it a lot !

fifthchamber
9th June 2008, 06:45
I'll check when I get home.. Give me about an hour eh?

Prince Loeffler
9th June 2008, 06:50
I'll check when I get home.. Give me about an hour eh?

Thanks a billion Ben ! I am up all night , me no go to work tomorrow ! Yeehaaa !

fifthchamber
9th June 2008, 14:42
Hmmm..Matsubayashi Ryu wasn't there under Karate...Is that the formal name?Or is there another bit often added to it?

The other possibility is that it was formed after the book was written and I haven't got the newest version..So it may not be there because of that..

Any idea?

fifthchamber
9th June 2008, 14:51
Ahhh....No, it IS there..Under "Shourin Ryu" (松林流), an alternate reading of the Kanji...Page 376/377 mate..
Again..Sorry for the delay and mix up..

Prince Loeffler
9th June 2008, 18:11
Ahhh....No, it IS there..Under "Shourin Ryu" (松林流), an alternate reading of the Kanji...Page 376/377 mate..
Again..Sorry for the delay and mix up..

Thanks Ben, This was what I was looking for, Apology not necessary. You're great !

Benkei the Monk
14th December 2008, 09:58
Some time ago I read on Furyu Magazine that this book would be transalted in English. Has anyone news about?

Tengu
14th December 2008, 14:38
Many people woud like It. (I included)
But I fear this Isn't happened.
But I think You are talking about the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten or the Nihon Kobudo Jiten.

Regards

Benkei the Monk
25th December 2008, 23:01
I speaking about Bugei Ryuha Daijiten

Benkei the Monk
25th August 2011, 18:35
I'd like to know some info about the BRDJ

- Are present only koryu or also modern gendai budo schools (till 1970s obviously)?
- Any page for Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu?
- Are considered also the karate schools and branches?

Thanks to all for the answers

George Kohler
25th August 2011, 18:37
I'd like to know some info about the BRDJ

- Are present only koryu or also modern gendai budo schools (till 1970s obviously)?
- Any page for Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu?
- Are considered also the karate schools and branches?

Thanks to all for the answers

1. Both
2. Yes
3. Yes

Benkei the Monk
26th August 2011, 18:47
thank you very much