Admiral Takeshita Isamu

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[DDATFUS]

Thanks, Nathan. That's an interesting article.

[Josh Reyer]

This came up on Aikiweb (http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15198&highlight=Takeshita) as well. I'd like to repeat here some concerns I mentioned in that thread:

Regarding the nature of the whole study, I have one concern that could be addressed by providing the original Japanese of the notes. Shishida here (and the following discussion) attributes all the commentary in the notes to Ueshiba himself. I feel that might be a shaky assumption. The notes are clearly Takeshita's notes to himself, to help him learn. As such, they're not likely to be overly specific, particular in the pithy idiom of pre-war written Japanese. Does it actually say, "These are techniques that Ueshiba said could be used against judo"? Or, is perhaps that simply Takeshita's own interpretation of what he was being taught. We know that Ueshiba's teaching style, particularly at this early stage, was not very full of explanation and exposition. He'd show a technique, maybe twice, and then onto the next one. Perhaps Takeshita, conversant with judo, recognized whenever Ueshiba used a particular judo set-up to demonstrate technique/aiki/kokyu, and thus cataloged this particular techniques together. Creating his own "syllabus", as it were, just as every other student of Ueshiba was doing. In other words, is "counters against judo" Ueshiba's words, or merely Takeshita's take? And so further, just how much did Takeshita himself understand about aiki, and how is that understanding (or lack thereof) reflected in the notes he left?


According to Shirata Rinjiro, an early pre-war student of Ueshiba, the unique technical elements that Ueshiba incorporated into his aikido were: a triangulated kamae supposedly from Yagyu shinkage-ryu (identical to Yoshinkan);

I'm skeptical. Yagyu Shinkage-ryu kamae, such as they exist, tend to be wide and deep, and don't look like the Yoshinkan kamae at all, particularly the heavy supination of the feet in the Yoshinkan stance. If it did come from Shinkage-ryu, I suspect it became exaggerated over time.

[TimothyKleinert]

The author states that hikiotoshi is not characteristic of Daito-ryu technique.
Dropping to seiza (or whatever) in the middle of a technique is not unheard in DR. I've certainly been told informally that a practitioner can drop down to add extra power to certain techniques, if needed. However, I will admit that in the few instances of the action I've seen in formal kata, the action seems more to follow a falling opponent, rather than to add power.

So without seeing the techniques in question, I would have to say that hikiotoshi as described here does not necessarily sound "un-DR-ish" to me. But of course, I've trained in Hakuho-ryu, which is big on using gravity to power technique.

[John Connolly]

I hate to add fuel to the Hapkido-derived-from-DR fire (I am consistently on the side of "probably not", and "if so them it evolved too much to be relevant in a modern context"), but Hapkido as I learned it and as I learned Kuk Sool (an offshoot) and as I've seen many Hapkido schools and Hwarang Do (also an offshoot) schools, often utilize a heavy weight drop to apply technique or counter techniques. It is also in the popular lore of Hapkido that Choi used specific technical skills to counter Judo techniques, such as those of his first student Suh Bok Sup, who was according to Hapkido history proficient in Judo. Many of Hapkido's (as I learned it and witnessed from other schools) joint locking techniques are specific to counter Judo style clothing grabs.

I guess, in the end, I am not suggesting that Hapkido is DR derived anything, but rather like Aikido, reacting to the major MA of its time and development (Judo).

[P Goldsbury]

Hello Nathan,

I share the opinions of Josh Reyer.

The reference appears on p.53 of the book, but no mention is made of Yoshinkan and the angle of Shirata Sensei's front foot seems to vary in the photographs. It is also a little different from that in the photograph of Morihei Ueshiba on the next page.

The photo of O Sensei was taken at Iwama and I know from direct tuition from the late Morihiro Saito Sensei that his hamni stance was rather different to Shirata Sensei's.

Best wishes,

PAG

[Ellis Amdur]

It is certainly possible, even likely, that Ueshiba engaged in a period of study of how to counter judo. Given all the descriptions I've read, I would bet it was like - "grab me and try to throw me, judoman." And Ueshiba counter it. Maybe people repeated what he did in practice. Maybe some, like Takeshita just wrote it down. Maybe Ueshiba was more organized - as in, for three or six months, he concentrated all his practices on applying his DR to judo like entries and attacks.
But, as Nathan says, the assertion that his counters were based on judo, or even more dubiously, Kito-ryu, are hard to believe. The little bit of judo that Ueshiba did was a year or less with a 21 year old shodan. Given that Kano, himself, probably did not learn the old "aiki-resembling" Kito-ryu methods (evidence is pretty clear that it was lost in generations before Kano's few years of study), how would a 21 y.o. shodan have taught Ueshiba such things.
Ueshiba did learn a bit of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu - from Kosaburo Gejo - and it is very possible that Shirata learned that "bit" along with Tomiki Kenji.
But what is clear is that Ueshiba did NOT make big changes in his Daito-ryu based on the little he learned from Yagyu, or Kashima Shinto-ryu, or whatever - instead, he took those forms and used them as containers to put his OWN ideas - derived, of course, from DR.
Oh - and so I don't have to reply - book is in design/production. Target of late spring.
Ellis

[Eric Pearson]

Ellis Amdur wrote:

But, as Nathan says, the assertion that his counters were based on judo, or even more dubiously, Kito-ryu, are hard to believe. The little bit of judo that Ueshiba did was a year or less with a 21 year old shodan. Given that Kano, himself, probably did not learn the old "aiki-resembling" Kito-ryu methods (evidence is pretty clear that it was lost in generations before Kano's few years of study), how would a 21 y.o. shodan have taught Ueshiba such things.


Doing a bit of research and guessing I would weigh in....

In 1911, around the age of 28, Ueshiba studied judo under Kiyoichi Takagi

Ueshiba would have gotten exposed to Judo through Kenji Tomiki and Mochizuki. Both trained under Ueshiba and Kano. In fact both were the only two to receive a Menkyo Kaidan from him.

Ueshiba started training in Daito Ryu in 1915.

a mere 11 years later....

Kenji Tomiki started training under Ueshiba in 1926. Likely he was a nidan or sandan. Maybe not high ranked enough to be dazzling - but good enough to cause some serious problems for Ueshiba in randori.

by 1928 Kenji Tomiki was ranked 5th in Judo. While I do not have information as to how much Ueshiba, Mochizuki and Tomiki trained together....I am willing to venture it was quite a lot. Ueshiba could have been exposed to all sorts of Judo through these two budding masters through the 1920s and 1930s.



Whatever the counter techniques in the 1930s were based on is probably impossible to decide - but knowing Ueshibas and Tomiki's work it was likely based on experimentation, sound principles and body dynamics learned from years of experience training in a variety of arts.

[Chuck Clark]

I was told that Tomiki was yondan when he met Ueshiba and Mochizuki and Ueshiba had little contact on the mat. I think there would have been no judo experiments going on with Ueshiba. I read somewhere that Mochizuki had no real instruction from Ueshiba before he was asked to go south and head an Ueshiba dojo. I'm too lazy just now to look up the references for this due to watching my dog experiencing her first snow. She likes it...

Safe, Peaceful, and joyful holidays,

Best regards.

[Flintstone]

I read somewhere that Mochizuki had no real instruction from Ueshiba before he was asked to go south and head an Ueshiba dojo.
Oh, yes, please. Try to get that reference. Would be bored to know that, again, someone can rewrite the history.

Enjoy.

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[grondahl]

From the interview with Mochizuki from Aikido Masters:

"And you know, I was never taught by Ueshiba Sensei directly with him telling me to do this or that". Page 104.

I guess that could be the source.


Oh, yes, please. Try to get that reference. Would be bored to know that, again, someone can rewrite the history.

Enjoy.

[P Goldsbury]

Josh,

Peter,

The demonstration of the kamae in the photograph appears to me to be identical to the one used in Yoshinkan, except for Shirata's hips, which open outwards slightly in a way that is similar to Kisshomaru's sankaku-tai hanmi (except for the feet and height of the tegatana). The Yoshinkan reference was my own, offered as a visual reference to readers. And yes, the only time I've seen Ueshiba Morihei in a stance *close* to this is in photos of him in chudan kamae with a sword, or during transitions in techniques (ikkajo). The more you open your hips outwards (hanmi), the less you can turn your front foot to the outside. Yoshinkan teaches a full-forward squared off hip position for their "hanmi", which is why the foot is turned out more than in some lines.
Regards,

Yes. I know. At some point in my training history I was exposed to the Yoshinkan posture, Aiki-ken, and Minoru Inaba's variant of kashima shin ryu--all during the same period. Ueshiba's stance in the photograph on the next page is much closer to Saito's aiki-ken kamae.

Best wishes,

PAG

[Kendoguy9]

Hello all,

As I see it the Kito-ryu "hikiotoshi" that the author describes in the article isn't found in Daito-ryu (or at least none I've seen in the mainline, Takumakai, or Roppokai). Although it is a little watered down, here is a video described as Kito-ryu on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mJ_Hnns2Qw

Although I don't know anyone in the video or what they do it sure looks like Judo's Koshiki-no-kata to me. There have been some changes in the past few decades to make Koshiki-no-kata easier on the body and it can been seen in the first kata they do (Tai). Uke starts to fall down before nage even throws him. Kano can be seen doing part of the same kata here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4ggqaoLR7A

Anyway these are all sutemi waza, none of which I've ever seen in any aikido (granted I haven't seen all the various groups of aikido). While Tim makes a good point about dropping to a knee, maybe evern two knees that is nothing like anything in the Koshiki-no-kata or Kito-ryu that I've seen.

Just a few thoughts,

[Flintstone]

From the interview with Mochizuki from Aikido Masters:

"And you know, I was never taught by Ueshiba Sensei directly with him telling me to do this or that". Page 104.

I guess that could be the source.

Sorry to disagree Peter, but the complete quote (from page 106 in my edition) is:

"And you know, I was never taught by Ueshiba Sensei directly with him telling me to do this or that. Whenever he did a new technique Sensei would correct all the others individually, but he'd never correct me. I'd watch Sensei's technique and just do it like him. Sensei said that I was the person he least needed to worry about. I would just watch and understand."

I believe he did have "real instruction" from Ueshiba. And a quite good and quality one.

These are the dangers of taking a quote out of context. From what you and Chuck said, it really looks that Mochizuki Sensei have never trained with Ueshiba. Quite the opposite, isn't it?

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[grondahl]

We do not disagree.
I think that the origin of the the quote, an interview with Mochizuki sensei published in a book named "Aikido Masters, Prewar Students of Morihei Ueshiba" kind of settles the issue by it self.


Sorry to disagree Peter.....

These are the dangers of taking a quote out of context. From what you and Chuck said, it really looks that Mochizuki Sensei have never trained with Ueshiba. Quite the opposite, isn't it?