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Neil Hawkins
30th January 2001, 05:59
I recently got to look at some tapes put out by Vladimir Vasiliev on the Russian Martial Art. Interesting.

Does anyone know what the relationship between "The Russian Martial Art" of Vasiliev, and R.O.S.S. put out by Scott Sonnon in the US? Are they one and the same? If not what are the differences?

Has anyone practiced either at all? What are your perceptions of the art/s?

Neil

melk
30th January 2001, 18:46
First I must admit that I have only seen a very limited amount of Vasilevs Systema, and there some parts of it that give me pause. However on a strictly H2H basis, Systema, and ROSS(which I have been involved with for some time) are at least somewhat similar. If you trace their lineage back they have the same root. However, both Systems have made their own improvements and innovations. The primary difference is in training methodology. Systema is somewhat rough from the start and is based on a series of techniques, while improvisation is encouraged, you still have an arsenal of techniques to learn. ROSS on the other hand starts of a little gentler, as a newbie your not going to get beat up anywhere near as much, and you will only advance in roughness as you and your training partner are ready for it, more or less at your own pace. Secondly ROSS puts a lot of emphasis on not teaching technique, but rather the principles that make the technique work, thus allowing the student to improvise their own techniques as the situation demands.

The end result of both however is the same, the development of good Russian style fighters. The main differences are found in the methodology on getting there. Both sides think that there way is the best, which only makes sense, or else that wouldn't stay with that side for long. In the end it is a matter of personal choice and preference.

drusin
30th January 2001, 20:18
Neil,
Greetings! A few years ago I read an article in a MA magazine that dealt with Vladimir Vasiliev's system of Russian Martial Art and I have seen a portion of one of his videos. That is the extent of my exposure to and knowledge of Vasiliev's system. I therefore cannot really comment on that system. However, I have been training under Scott Sonnon since November of 1999 and would like to share with you some of the things I have learned in that brief time. The system that Scott teaches is called R.O.S.S., which is an acronym for the Russian words that mean Russian Native System of Self-Defense. A visit to their website would likely answer many of your questions: http://www.amerross.com .

Scott Sonnon's organization and Vasiliev's are not affiliated. There may be similarities with each system originating in Russian culture, however, my experience with RMA is only in the ROSS system. It is important to remember that ROSS is not a style of martial art, but rather a system of performance enhancement in any physical culture. Training in ROSS can enhance any of your existing skills and help you to understand the principles of mechanical advantage that allow your skills to be effective. In many cases, existing skills can be greatly improved. It is a system based upon natural human movement. There are three main goals. They are biomechanical efficiency, proper respiration and proper structural alignment. It is the integration of these three aspects in ourselves and the disintegration of these aspects in our opponents (when speaking in terms of martial application) that is the primary strategy.

Scott is a very talented martial artist and a great instructor. Class and seminar formats are friendly, supportive, non-competitive with an emphasis on tribal strengthening rather than individual development. That is not to say that individual development is not the outcome. It most certainly is, but within the framework of group development. The format of ROSS sessions is a refreshing alternative to commercialized martial arts instruction. I feel that in my brief time training with Scott and the other AARMACS trainers (who are also great instructors), I have made more significant improvements than I have ever in the past. I would highly recommend checking out their website, their training aids (videos, books, etc.) and if you ever have the chance to attend a ROSS seminar, by all means, do so. You will not be disappointed.

Best of luck and happy training.
Dave Rusin

jdarby
30th January 2001, 20:32
Dear Neil and other readers,
I agree with Melk that ROSS and the Vasiliev Systema have similar base principles on which a personal understanding of H2H combat is founded in RMA. As you know the empirical differentiation between martial arts lies in training methodology; Melk again states the facts in the description of how ROSS and V-Systema differ. I began my RMA experiences with Mr. Vasiliev and have found him to be a wonderful resource for information and guidance. He is both a consummate practitioner and a kind man.
I am now working closely with Mr. Sonnon in the ROSS system and have found him to be a greatly inspired and inspiring man. The reason I am now affiliated with Mr. Sonnon is summed-up in a name: Alexander Retuinski. Mr. Retuinski has created a broad and expansive international RMA organization called ROSS. Through Mr. Retuinski many dedicated martial practitioners have been vested with the stewardship of ROSS around the world.
Therein lies the largest difference between the two schools: organizational structure and international marketshare. I thoroughly enjoy both Mr. Vasiliev and Mr. Sonnon's instruction and hope to see both excel in their propigation of their organizations' aims.
Sorry for sounding a bit political, but I needed to stress that both schools have their merits.
Thanks for your question and feel free to drop me a line any time or call 360.561.6102.
Yours in Fraternity,
John Darby, NWMI

dc8ball
30th January 2001, 21:12
Neil,

I don't know about Vladimir Vasiliev tapes. I have been practicing ROSS principles and study Mr. Sonnon's materials everyday.

ROSS is a system of performance enhancement, it's the stuff in between the tactics. Example: students can learn techniques, but not all students can aply the techniques in a dynamic sphere successfully. ROSS has exposed me to the stuff I've always worried about like how do I apply my skills to any situation. We work with improvising and decreasing fear ,addressing issues like fear help to enhance our performace. I have witnessed these first hand and felt the difference the training makes.

Some of my other MA experiences I have found that I always questioned my training. I always wondered if it was only the select few that had the talent inside of them. After my exposure to ROSS many of my questions were answered and I realised that I too can be talented if I only trained in a different way. There is no one way, only the way that is right for me. ROSS is helping me develope in my own way. I am the master of my own movement.

Hope this begins to answer your questions,

Dani'l

Neil Hawkins
30th January 2001, 23:09
I have read much of the stuff that has been put out by ROSS and had hoped to attend a seminar late last year but it was cancelled due to a lack of interest.

I have not seen any ROSS at all and wondered how it compared to Systema. From what I saw on the tapes it does look eminently practical, however I would like to have seen it a full speed as some of the responses looked a little difficult to implement.

I know it is hard to judge by looking at a few hours of video, but it seemed to me that many of the evasions were comlpleted very close to the attacker, I would expect that the chance of getting hit would be high, even if you are moving away to absorb any blow, any interuption of balance could affect your ability to counter.

I must admit that some of the evasions were very good, especially those that moved in on the attacker.

Are the same loose body evasions used in ROSS?

How are they explained to new students who may be at risk when allowing strikes to come so close to the body/head?

Please don't see this as a criticism, the sabaki I use is also very close, perhaps not as loose and flowing (I intend to play with that a little), but I have often found that people instinctively try and make more distance than is required. I also always move off the line of attack so an unexpectedly strong attack should not overwhelm me, somthing that did not seem to be emphasised in the tapes.

Regards

Neil

melk
30th January 2001, 23:24
Since I have had no real time in training with Systema as of yet, I will stick only to what I know of ROSS. Yes many of the evasions are very close to the body. So to answer your question of training, I know that in ROSS we start very slowly. Moving often at less than a quarter speed so that the newbie has plenty of time to react, and to train to the nervous system to react, speed and force are only increased when the trainy feels comfortable with it. I hope that this was helpful.

adrowell
31st January 2001, 00:36
Dear Neil,
I have had limited exposure to the Systema of Vladimir Vasiliev, but I would be happy to share my experience in the ROSS training system with you.

In ROSS I found a system of martial training that offers the combat enthusiast an opportunity to create and develop his own personal style, instead of superimposing a prefabricated method of fighting on the individual. Through an understanding of the biomechanical model, I have discovered how and why techniques work and how to create my own techniques spontaneously.

As a trainer, I have learned to manicure a training environment that fosters self-learning and exploration, instead of creating clones of myself. I have discovered a new mind set, a paradigm shift, to why I train. For me, the training matrix is a tool for strengthening community. It is paramount for building mutually beneficial relationships.

Althoug ROSS is not superior to other cultural martial expressions, it does offer a distinctive training prospective that anyone can benefit from. If you have the opportunity, take advantage of a ROSS camp or seminar.

Kind Regards,
Doug Rowell

blkwolf
31st January 2001, 01:32
Gentelmen,
In reply to the question proposed about Ross. I, Personally know Mr. Sannon and his teacher General Alexsander Retunskih. To me they posses traits which are worthy of mention; Character, Skill, and Virtue. These traits I noticed in both formal training situations, and in personal outings. Why are they worthy of mention? Well to me because soo many martial artists forget about these notions which are easily transmitted down to their students, and do not offer assistance in development which is hallmark to all students (self development). This, I belive is why the President of Russia (V. Putin) has given his own personal endorsement of the Ross organization and is an active member in it. One more factor I belive for Mr. Putins endorsement is the Idea that Ross holds true Russian culture and tradition. He endorses no other organization.
Russian martial art for many years was held in tribal dance and practice, its a lot more than just technique. As for technique I have studdied for over 20 years ( numerous systems), and trained special ops personnel around the states, and I belive that the Ross system is one of the best
for all three phases of martial art; Assertion, Defense and Health.

Neil Hawkins
31st January 2001, 09:46
Thank you for your responses.

Before I go on, I should point out that it is a policy here to sign posts with your full name.

Do the Russian systems (either of them) have a weapons component? I would expect that as a military art they would include bayonet, knife and possibly short stick.

Is there a philosopical basis for the art?

Regards

Neil

melk
31st January 2001, 15:27
Neil,

They both have a rather involved, and elaborate weapons system. Not simply bayonet, knife and short stick, but belt, shovel, sword and saber, and just about anything else you can lay your hands on would be considered a possible weapon. Again I do not know much as far as the training philosophy of V-Systema when it comes to weapons training, other than Vlad wants to make sure you can survive on the street and in the bar, not just the battlefield, so I would assume that much of it is the same, as in ROSS. The ROSS idea sees every weapon, be it knife, gun, stick, or barstool as an inprovised weapon, meaning that there are multiple possible uses for each. It then assigns different categories of of weapon attack, flailing, blugeoning, impaling, slashing, and one other that has seemed to slip my mind, understanding that any weapon to a greater or lesser degree of success can be used in each of these ways gives us a paradigm for training, i.e. improvise and think outside the box. Take a pistol, HK-USP just for the fun of it. Naturally it is a projectile weapon, that is up until the point that it jams on you. At which point you have a choice of looking at it in one of two ways, as a worthless piece of Iron that is doing you no good, or as a weapon. Ideally you would choose the second option, and therefore examine the ways that it could be used as a weapon. First off if it is a larger caliber weapon, it will make an excellent club. The front sight on any pistol makes a decent slashing weapon at someones face. Or you could use it as a improvised set of brass knuckles, getting punched in the stomach by a pistol barrel is absolutely no fun, and all of that is to just name a few ways in which it could be used.

Rolling Elbow
1st February 2001, 01:52
seeign as nobody is really focusing on Vasiliev..let me tell you that what they do is incredible stuff. Furthermore, I have also heard that what they show at seminars and on videos is only a portion of the principles and theories that they reserve for themselves.

They hit like mules and are taught to be as pliable as rubber. That about does it..like anything there will be things u like and don't like..its a damn good system though.

kukai
2nd February 2001, 09:13
Greetings!
As far as I know, Vasilyev's Sistema originates from contemporary method of Bojevaya Sistema Kadotshnikova, developed by Alexei Kadotshnikov and based on jujutsu redesigned following principles of modern physics (PhD as he was). For all I know (I'm from former SU, and met some real staff) this system was NOT official combat method of GRU SF. Special Forces H2H training was based on another system called Bazovo-Kustovyi Metod. Army may have tried both but their training was too topical to apply Kadotshnikov's system full-time. What a great way to sell something, though, is'nt it?
It is not to say that what Vasilyev offers is worthless. It does have values. It's his words im doubtfull of...
But then again, that's just me :look:

Sven Salumets

jimei
2nd February 2001, 13:35
I like the breadth and depth of the Systema. The knife fighting and disarmaing is particularly effective. The emphasis on constant fluid movement, softness over coming hardness and "sticking" is similar to combat oriented Tai Chi Chuan. I think the Systema focuses on finding an individual's natural responses and then honing and refining them. I don't see the emphasis on technique as much a principals of movement. In the tapes it seems as if Vasiliev and students know what is coming at them. The focus of the center of movement is in the solor plexus, instead of the "tan tien" or "hara' which I have only seen in Chinese Liuhebafa Chuan.
Moving from the solar plexus (and heart) seems to bring about a higher level of non-resistance and harmony which comes from learning to open to Harmony with the Universe (objective love). Getting to this level requires letting go of fear, the need to control, or fear of being controlled. Then there is real freedom and unlimited power available to "restore harmony". This freedom is methodlessness" and the "technique" is just what is needed, but not determined by one's ego or specific past training. The "technique" may not look like anything one ever trained.

James Fraser,
Fujian, Proc

jellyman
5th February 2001, 00:47
While Vasiliev knows of Kadochnikov, and has exposed him to the West on osme of his video footage, and goes so far as to call him a great master, Kadochnikov is not Vasiliev's master, and in fact runs a different system, with a different teaching methodology. I know this from discussion with Vasiliev, from discussions with one of Kadochnikov's students, and also from the following url:

http://glory.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/ruseng.html

Kadochnikov is in fact Retyunskih's teacher, or was at one point. This according to the above posted URL, Kadochnikov's students who have also trained with ROSS and systema, as well as Russian soldiers who know of him.

Differences between Kadochnikov, Systema and ROSS as described to me by people ionvolved with all three -

Kadochnikov breaks isolates and analyzes each movement, in terms of strength and biomechanics (his engineering background helped here). Once the student knows how to move, the fighting begins.

Vasiliev shows movement, but follows the method of having variations of fighting. As you fight, he'll look at you and tell you how you can improve. There are also drills, but you are encouraged to improvise right away, as long as the principle involved is the same, the essence of the drill is captured.

ROSS, I am told, is between the extremes of Kadochnikov style and Systema style. Not as rigid with the movements as Kadochnikiv, not sink-or-swim as systema.

Vasiliev himself was in fact SOU (an elite within Spetz) and his Master is called Mikhail Ryabko, who says that he learned starting at 5. He mentions his uncle (former bodygaurd to Stalin) as one of his main mentors, and makes no other claims as to the lineage.

Ryabko is to Vlad as Vlad is to everyone else - this is enough to convince me that Ryabko is the teacher, as he is the only person I have seen who surpasses Vladimir. Ryabko is still active in Spetsnaz, having just returned from Chechnya. He looks forward to retiring this year. I have a picture of him in spetz issue gear, insiginia, weapons, with a bunch of others in a military hangar about to board a Russian military transport plane standing besides Russian fighter planes, (something I imagine is not easy to fake in the USSR or any other country). I also have a spetz combat knife he brought over from Russia when I met the man personally. Based on this, and his absolute mastery over himself and others, including Vladimir, I reckon he is the real deal, and also very nice. I look forward to visiting the Spetz base, as well as Rybko's school, in Russia this summer. There are maybe 100 people in Russia who study Rybko's style, although some of his students have left him, disavowed any conneciton, and started their own (Vlad's loyalty is no surprise to those who know him).

here's a url with a couple of interviews with Rybko:

http://www.mikhailryabko.com/

There are other RMA's out there as well as these three and Sambo, as well as numerous other Russian federations studying Asian arts. Here's a URL with quite a few links for those interested:

http://www.alliancemartialarts.com/russia2.html


John Elliott (edited this in after I remembered the protocol)

[Edited by jellyman on 02-04-2001 at 07:09 PM]

AmerROSS
21st March 2001, 13:48
Neil, I am conducting a seminar in Brisbane this August (11-12). If you would like to attend, or meet, drop me a line. sonnon@amerross.com.
Be well and strong!
Fraternal,
Scott Sonnon
www.amerross.com

Additionally, for the record... Below were Gen. Retuinskih's teachers:

Aleksandr M. Krivorotov - the First Honoured Coach of Russia in Sambo (this is the highest award in sport in Russia)

Vladimir V. Volosov - Honoured Coach of Russia in Sambo (current Chairman of Sambo Academy in Kstovo)

Vladimir P. Guliaev - Honoured Coach of Bashkiria in Sambo

Uriu A. Shulik - Master of Sport in Sambo, Doctor of Pedagogical Sciences (current Professor of Krasnodar State Academy of Physical Culture)

G. Potoroka - Master of Sport in Sambo and Judo (deceased)

Aleksei A. Kadochnikov - Instructor of Hand-To-Hand Combat


For an update on Russian Martial Art (including a letter from Russian President V. Putin to the International and All-Russian Federation of Russian Martial Art), visit the current Online Newsletter at: http://www.amerross.com/bulletin/messages/3/662.html?TuesdayMarch2020010838am

Neil Hawkins
21st March 2001, 23:57
Scott

Thanks, but I have recently moved to Broome in Western Australia with work, so I am now 5000kms away from Brisbane.

I would like to meet/train at some stage, but it may have to wait until I visit the States, maybe in 2003.

Thanks again

Regards

Neil