Which Iai Koryu do you do?

[Andy Watson]

Sorry to "use" E-budo but this thread occured in KW...

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20133

And I thought it would be interesting to see how the stats go. I realise that there is some discussion as to which styles are koryu but lets just let that go...

[Kendoguy9]

See signature below :)

[Andy Watson]

Then I guess that's "Other"...

[DDATFUS]

Andy, the thread title says "Iai" but the pole just says "koryu/sword style." Some koryu sword styles don't really include iai, so do you want guys from those styles to chime in?

If so, then I'm in the same "other" as Chris.

[Andy Watson]

I guess that's the problem with this poll, it was aimed at iai styles orginally but I realise there are grey areas.

Can I just ask for the time being those that practice JSA with a real sword in a kata fashion to please vote.

We may need another pole for kenjutsu practitioners.

Thanks guys and gals

[DDATFUS]

Can I just ask for the time being those that practice JSA with a real sword in a kata fashion to please vote.

Well, our style does use real swords in kata fashion-- but only for two-man kenjutsu kata which start with the sword already drawn :)

[Andy Watson]

I think that makes it a kenjutsu rather than a batto or iai art, but then I don't know either.

[Kim Taylor]

We may need another pole for kenjutsu practitioners.


Some of those kenjutsu guys are scary, if they don't like this poll you may well need another pole Andy.

;-)

Kim Taylor

[DDATFUS]

I think that makes it a kenjutsu rather than a batto or iai art, but then I don't know either.

Oh, I realize now that what I do falls outside what you're looking for-- I'm just picky enough to point out that just because we "practice JSA with a real sword in kata fashion" doesn't mean that we do iai. Off the top of my head, I can think of two koryu sword arts that have no iai but that use shinken for paired kenjutsu kata (Maniwa Nen Ryu and Jikishinkage Ryu) and I'm sure that there are others.

It might be interesting if you ask people who practice a koryu whether or not their art includes iai, and if so how large a role it plays in their art.

Anyway, just me being obnoxious. I'll try to shut up now.

[Andy Watson]

Oh, I realize now that what I do falls outside what you're looking for-- I'm just picky enough to point out that just because we "practice JSA with a real sword in kata fashion" doesn't mean that we do iai. Off the top of my head, I can think of two koryu sword arts that have no iai but that use shinken for paired kenjutsu kata (Maniwa Nen Ryu and Jikishinkage Ryu) and I'm sure that there are others.

It might be interesting if you ask people who practice a koryu whether or not their art includes iai, and if so how large a role it plays in their art.

Anyway, just me being obnoxious. I'll try to shut up now.

David, obnoxious? Not at all.

You've pointed at a grey area which of course is difficult to qualify. You're quite right that my description would include those kenjutsu kata, perhaps I should have said in a solo form....m'kay, I will.

:)

[Chuck.Gordon]

You need a multiple choice option ...

[Brian Owens]

You need a multiple choice option ...

I voted for three arts, so I guess it is (now, at any rate) multiple choice.

I really only "do" (or, rather, "did") two arts, but I've attended a few seminars in Toyama Ryu and off-shoots, so I marked that one, too.

My "Other" is definitely not koryu, but included solo kata/waza with iaito, so I think that was part of the question.

[Ookami7]

Brian,

I`m with you. I ended up marking about 3 of them. Main line is MSR, but have been to seminar and some of the kata cross over with the kae waza so checked MJER, and I studied Toyama ryu and that Senseis own style so muliply choice answer for me as well.

-- Jeff Collier

[Aden]

Odd people - the question was "Which koryu/sword style do you do?" not did or have been exposed to...

So despite having been taught the first set in MSR (and occasionally doing some of them), having instruction in the 8 display forms of another school, spending 6 months in a Mugai dojo and various other things at seminar over the last 15 years I just ticked Tamiya - I do not "do" the other styles.

Aden

[john_lord_b3]

Can I just ask for the time being those that practice JSA with a real sword in a kata fashion to please vote.


When I was training with the KJJR people, we do many paired sword Katas with Bokken, Iaito and Shinken. I still practise many of those Katas. I was told that they came from Kukishin-ryu. Therefore, I vote for "other".

[Ken-Hawaii]

Considering that probably half of us train in more than one koryu, I estimate that only about 50 have bothered to respond. I also think we should consider iai & kenjutsu to be koryu for the purpose of this survey.

I really find this poll to be interesting, Andy. Thanks for posting it.

[Andy Watson]

Thanks Ken

At the bottom of the chart it shows some 117 people have responded. Still not a huge number given the number of views.

I will do a kenjutsu poll shortly and am in need of a list of popular ones. So far...

(Kasumi) Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu
Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu
Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu
Maniwa Nen Ryu
Jikishinkage Ryu
Suio Ryu
Itto Ryu
Tatsumi Ryu

More contributions would be welcome...

[Max Chouinard]

Maniwa nen ryu is popular? ;)

You should differientiate the ha also, like TSKSR Sugino Ha or the Yagyu shinkage ryu branches, it might get your poll even more interesting. Anyhow just list all of those on koryu.com, we never know who visits here.

[Steve Delaney]

Maniwa nen ryu is popular? ;)

You should differientiate the ha also, like TSKSR Sugino Ha or the Yagyu shinkage ryu branches, it might get your poll even more interesting. Anyhow just list all of those on koryu.com, we never know who visits here.

I don't see why. Izaza soke sponsored Sugino Yukihiro at Meiji Jingu a couple of years back. It's not really a bunpa, it's just a different shihan's teaching method at the end of the day.

[Kendoguy9]

I think Yagyu Shinkage-ryu would get a few hits. You may want to break up Itto-ryu too since there is a strong Ono-ha Itto-ryu following in the US and a strong Mizoguchi-ha Itto-ryu following in the UK. The others maybe not so much. I don' thtink anyone outside of Japan does Muto-ryu or Kogen Itto-ryu.

Best regards,

[drosera99]

there is a strong Ono-ha Itto-ryu following in the US and a strong Mizoguchi-ha Itto-ryu following in the UK.

Really?

I didn't know that. I don't suppose you have links?

Cheers,

[Kendoguy9]

The Jikishinkai (MJER) has formed a strong relationship with Sasamori sensei. They hosted Sasamori sensei for a US seminar this past spring in New Jersey. I would contact Masayuki Shimabukuro sensei or Carl Long sensei for more information. http://www.jikishin-kai.com/

A number of kendoka in the UK follow the Mizuguchi-ha Itto-ryu. One of the high ranked teachers who travels there teaches them (maybe an Ogawa sensei?) try the British Kendo Association: http://www.kendo.org.uk/

Best regards,

[drosera99]

The Jikishinkai (MJER) has formed a strong relationship with Sasamori sensei. They hosted Sasamori sensei for a US seminar this past spring in New Jersey. I would contact Masayuki Shimabukuro sensei or Carl Long sensei for more information. http://www.jikishin-kai.com/

A number of kendoka in the UK follow the Mizuguchi-ha Itto-ryu. One of the high ranked teachers who travels there teaches them (maybe an Ogawa sensei?) try the British Kendo Association: http://www.kendo.org.uk/

Best regards,

Okay. That makes sense. I heard about the seminar in NJ with Sasamori Sensei. I thought you were talking about Itto-ryu branch dojos and the like.

Thanks!

[Max Chouinard]

I don't see why. Izaza soke sponsored Sugino Yukihiro at Meiji Jingu a couple of years back. It's not really a bunpa, it's just a different shihan's teaching method at the end of the day.

There are still a bunch of people who consider themselves in the Sugino ha. The poll would be an indicator of it.

[Kendoguy9]

Try contacting the Jikishinkai. I don't know if anyone in the group has a full dojo yet but they are very serious about their budo and it wouldn't suprise me if it happened sooner or later. I think several of their branches train in Itto-ryu (I could be wrong). Again try giving them a call and I'm sure they can give you more details.

[Max Chouinard]

There are still a bunch of people who consider themselves in the Sugino ha. The poll would be an indicator of it.
And by the way, is Sugino considered a shihan too? I thought there was only one?

[drosera99]

Try contacting the Jikishinkai. I don't know if anyone in the group has a full dojo yet but they are very serious about their budo and it wouldn't suprise me if it happened sooner or later. I think several of their branches train in Itto-ryu (I could be wrong). Again try giving them a call and I'm sure they can give you more details.

Thanks for the info. I've got quite enough on my plate as it is! I was just curious because a few years back I had done some research on Itto-ryu in the U.S. and didn't turn up much.;)

[Kendoguy9]

Yeah I was researching it too, and found almost nothing. All of the sudden its popping everywhere (well a few places anyway).

BTW, I went to the seminar in NJ and it was a great time. Sasamori sensei was very kind and generous. If he comes back to the US I think it is worth the time to train with him. I don't even have the ability to really continue what I learned but it was still a good time and I'm glad I went.

[DDATFUS]

If he comes back to the US I think it is worth the time to train with him.

I second that. Sasamori Sensei was quite impressive both as a martial artist and, for lack of another term, a gentleman. If a long-term residency in Japan were in my immediate future he would not be at the bottom of my list of people to train under for the long haul. I suspect he would provide an excellent example both in and out of the dojo.

[Bruce Mitchell]

More contributions would be welcome...

Please, please, no ninja's :nin:. Of course if they really are ninja's they will be slipping in under the disguise of another ryu ;) and we will never be the wiser :nin::nin:

[Chidokan]

it would be interesting to see the breakdown of votes for MJER alone.... I see many 'variants' due to the fragmentation of the ryu (due mostly to the sheer numbers of people who practise).

[Ken-Hawaii]

Ooh, that's an interesting idea, Chikodan! I know the two main MJER branches are Tanimura-ha & Shimomura-ha, but have also run into students who train in Yamanouchi-ha & Sekiguchi-ha, although from what I've seen the kata differences are pretty manini (small). Maeda-Sensei trains us in Tanimura-ha, BTW.

Are there any more branches/twigs?

[Eric Spinelli]

Ooh, that's an interesting idea, Chikodan! I know the two main MJER branches are Tanimura-ha & Shimomura-ha, but have also run into students who train in Yamanouchi-ha & Sekiguchi-ha, although from what I've seen the kata differences are pretty manini (small). Maeda-Sensei trains us in Tanimura-ha, BTW.

Are there any more branches/twigs?

Yamauchi-ha is a subset of Tanimura-ha, and Sekiguchi-ha is a subset of Yamauchi-ha. I believe Harasuke-ha (the late Haruna sensei, now Oshita sensei, Ohmi sensei, etc.) and Masaoka-ha (Jikishinkai, etc.) are also offshoots of Tanimura-ha. There are also parallel lines of Tanimura-ha (Hokiyama-ha/Seitokai, Iwata sensei/Roshukai, etc.). Does anybody besides Iwata sensei do Shimomura-ha? Does Iwata sensei even teach it anymore?

The differences vary between teachers let alone branches and range from minor to "Are you sure that's Eishin Ryu?" What I have been shown of Shimomura-ha is quite interesting and helps shed some light on where MSR derived some of their techniques.

[Chidokan]

I have found one old guy in Kochi who still practises shimomura ha, and we are trying to find out if he will teach a class. I had Iwata sensei show me the differences a few years ago... they are quite interesting and you can see how MSR has picked up these points, although they are not exactly copied, but the roots of the ideas are there. One in particular I do like is the way the saya is handled. By flipping it totally upside down during nukitsuke, the kurigata doesnt stick out, so if you don't position the saya correctly, you don't run the risk of hitting your arm on it. The reach during nukitsuke is emphasised, so lots of hanmi and a slight hip twist, and you need to cover a lot of ground. Some of the 'variants' I had actually previously learnt as kae waza, so now I practise them all with the relevant points as a seperate 'exercise'.

[Andy Watson]

The trouble is that the more granular you make the survey, the less results you will get back (in absolute number) and the less accurately representative will the survey be.

As it stands it is hardly an accurate representation now as it only captures:

a) those people that read Ebudo or Kendoworld forums AND
b) could be bothered to take part in the survey AND
c) practice one art more dominantly than others thus allowing them to tick only one

As they say, there are lies, damned lies and statistics...

[Brian Owens]

...As they say, there are lies, damned lies and statistics...

And as we all know, 37.5% of all quoted statistics are completely fabricated.

[Andy Watson]

Just a lickle bump up in case people hadn't noticed this poll...

:laugh:

[Mesclino]

As soon as i have my Iaito i will start with Iai-Jitsu.
These are the styles practiced in the Dojo where i also practice Jiu-Jitsu:
- Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu
- Tamiya Ryu
We also use Ken No Kata as a base for other techniques but i have yet to learn what that means and/or Is.

Can't wait to gather the money for my Iaito and order it from Japan.