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Richard Scardina
1st March 2009, 23:48
Most schools, and almost all traditional schools, do drills where everyone stands in line and, on command, throws strikes, blocks, parries, etc. These are thrown correctly, from a chamber, and instructors walk down the line making corrections. For example, the most common method to do a right inward block is to bring the right fist up by the right ear and then hammer the block across the torso to a point opposite the left shoulder.

So, tell me, why do this? What is the point of all that correction to get it right, and the endles repetition? Why the chamber?

Note: the block was just an example- not looking for critique on this type of block. In fact, this is not how i do my blocks, it is just the most common method I've seen. My question here is the "getting it right, over and over.

yoj
2nd March 2009, 00:13
Muscle memory for one, which is perhaps an old term, these days i think of it in psychological terms as making the block action a subprocess, it's how we learn skills, first we do things in a concious fashion, then, those activities get laid down as a kind of sub-concious action, learning to drive is the best example of that in real terms. If you had to think about everything it wouldnt work very well.

One other thing is it builds and trains muscles capable of doing the technique.

Another thing is that in that example that technique is not always a block, it's about both hands moving and can be used as an arm lock/break.

Chambering is about generating power, about involving the hips, about whole body movement, we do the technique big, practised with powerful big movements so that when it comes time, we can do it from a less than perfect position, but still get some power into it, learning to write is a good example of this.

I also take it this is aimed at karate, FWIW they do this in traditional kung fu too, and while doing this under my old sifu I learned something about breathing and power generation using the abs that you wouldnt learn just doing kata, it came about just doing solo work. Refine refine refine.

Back to the writing, you cant string letters together to form sentences, unless you can at first write those letters.

Richard Scardina
2nd March 2009, 04:26
So, now tell me; given this information, do you think it is necessary, beneficial, helpful, or irrelevant to understand this learning process in order to learn an art?

How about helping you understand the differences in styles?

Would it give any insights into why many instructors will not train someone who is also training other styles?

yoj
2nd March 2009, 10:24
That all sounds a bit political, I don't do politics, was it a loaded question from the outset?

K. Cantwell
2nd March 2009, 13:18
So, now tell me; given this information, do you think it is necessary, beneficial, helpful, or irrelevant to understand this learning process in order to learn an art?


The teacher (a proper one, anyway) needs to understand the pedagogy, but the student doesn't. He/She just needs to participate in it. Thinking too much about the actual pedagogy can distract the student. Best just to do what your teacher tells you and not worry about the "why" for awhile.

Students asking, "Why do we do it like this?" can get themselves in trouble by trying to intellectualize what is essentially kinesthetic. Not that the "why" isn't important, but I think it is up to the teacher to decide when the answers to that question are appropriate since the teacher is responsible for guiding the training.


How about helping you understand the differences in styles?

Would it give any insights into why many instructors will not train someone who is also training other styles?

This may be political or not. If a potential student is studying with a known charlatan or someone known to be of ill repute, you may not want anything to do with something like that.

It is also due to the fact that each art has its own way of transmitting its principles...its own vocabulary, if you will. Other arts do things differently, so there will be confusion.

It may also be a sign of a tourist...why is the student worrying about "other" styles? Is this person interested in carrying on the tradition you are trying to impart or just trying to cobble something of his or her own together? Is it more about depth of knowledge or notches on the bedpost of "styles"?

Also, certain arts just won't fit together and it becomes a question of what you are trying to do. For example, in terms of koryu, you may run into trouble trying to study two schools like Itto-ryu and Katori Shinto-ryu. Studying Aikido and Katori Shinto-ryu, however, may be quite possible. Depends on what arts you are trying to put together and what the teacher thinks.

You may wind up with a student being pulled in more than one direction…serving two (or more) masters. Responsibilities will have to be split between arts. Some teachers may not like the sound of this…they want you to be dedicated to their art. (Some instructors may teach more than one art themselves, so this may not be an issue.)

That isn't to say that one can't (or shouldn't) study more than one art. It should probably be done at a certain point in training, though, with the approval of your teacher. The way one goes about picking up a second art, I think, may be the difference in having you teacher go along with it or not.

Your teacher has a path laid out for you according to his understanding of the art and what is best for you. Going out and deciding on your own that another art is what you need may not be in accord with your teacher's plan. Why should he waste his time with a student that knows better than he does? Nothing much you can teach a student like that.

Kevin Cantwell

Daniel Sullivan
2nd March 2009, 17:02
Most schools, and almost all traditional schools, do drills where everyone stands in line and, on command, throws strikes, blocks, parries, etc. These are thrown correctly, from a chamber, and instructors walk down the line making corrections. For example, the most common method to do a right inward block is to bring the right fist up by the right ear and then hammer the block across the torso to a point opposite the left shoulder.

So, tell me, why do this? What is the point of all that correction to get it right, and the endles repetition? Why the chamber?
The chamber is part of how the power is generated. The endless repetition is the only way to make the technique come naturally without having to first think about it.


Note: the block was just an example- not looking for critique on this type of block. In fact, this is not how i do my blocks, it is just the most common method I've seen. My question here is the "getting it right, over and over.
Repetition of technique is what separates the skilled practitioner from the belt collector. Anyone can learn the technique well enough to pass a belt test, especially given what passes for a belt test these days. But it takes hard work and dedication to do the tedious repetition, both in and out of class that will make you good.

The purpose of "getting it right over and over" is that practice doesn't make perfect. Practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect. The over and over is to help the student to avoid picking up bad habits.

Daniel

Bod
3rd March 2009, 10:07
The aim of this sort of punch is to bang one of your opponents very hard.

The trick is in the surprise. As the first guy comes in to bash you, you step away and bang his first accompice very hard. This accomplice was standing back, waiting for an opening, and you have surprised him.

You keep your stance low, so that when accomplice #3 kicks you in the side you don't get bowled over.

As accomplice #4 comes grabs your jacket with his left hand, you bring your right fist up to your right ear and block across your own torso, hopefully before he can punch you with his right hand.

Fighting against a single opponent of similar skill is a totally different ball game. You can recognise and parry most of his attacks. Moving only a matter of inches you can quickly turn a deft defence into attack. But in a multiple attacker situation this is just about the worst thing you can do.

I've only ever used "traditional style" techniques in a fight once. There was more than one person. I didn't hit any of them, because I moved away from the guy who made the first move, and threw a hip punch at one of the friends who was blocking my way. He moved. Perfect. I ran.

To ram the point home, fighting against more than one person, generally involves big, blunt, ugly techniques, and the minimum of prolonged contact. It involves a deepish stance to avoid being bowled over by a shove on the blind side. It involves moving as quickly as you can in this deepish stance. You have to act fast and decisively.

The skills you mentioned are certainly less useful in one on one fighting against a fighter of similar skill. But they are not a waste of time if you know the best way to apply those skills.

robertmrivers
4th March 2009, 19:10
With all due respect

If you don't know why the chambering motion is there or why a block/ strike seems to "set-up" before being executed, then don't hypothesize or facilitate the ages old concept that karate practitioners telegraph everything they do and that karate (and other traditional arts) are simply vehicles for promoting antiquated and ineffective dogma.

You may come to my dojo any time and ask and I will show you. But this banter is silly. Questions about a higher level (not advanced, just beyond what the casual practitioner will see) of understanding being asked by someone who doesn't know to a group of people who are answering with the same decades old rhetoric is getting everyone nowhere.

Anybody who has a real handle on this material as taught in Okinawa by Okinawans is not going to try to explain what the meaning of this material is on a chat room. Most will not even show you if you visit the dojo and ask.

As I said, if someone wants something other than "you chamber to get ready to hit" or "you are creating a reciprocating motion in your hips to create more power" then find a real dojo. Get off the chat rooms, get off youtube and go to the source and ask. Traditional martial arts are about principles...not techniques. Yet, the "experts" people inquire answer the questions with "techniques". Principles of combat are the same everywhere. Why would they be different in a 400 year old art?

My door is always open.

Robert M. Rivers
Motobu ha Shito Ryu
Motobu Udundi Kobujutsu
www.shin-dojo.com

robertmrivers
4th March 2009, 19:22
Also

the repetition is not only about muscle memory. It is about feeling one of the aforementioned principles...

The practicing in a line is necessary because of class size. In the old days practice was more intimate. Line drills are a product of Karate's popularity.

The first principle that must be understood is that karate is not about win or lose. It is about not losing. Its hard to get into much else unless this is appreciated.

If one does not wish to embrace this, then there are a million MMA/ Combat/ Ultimate Fighting Commando studios out there to choose from.

Happy Training

Rob Rivers

Cufaol
5th March 2009, 12:03
Also

the repetition is not only about muscle memory. It is about feeling one of the aforementioned principles...

The practicing in a line is necessary because of class size. In the old days practice was more intimate. Line drills are a product of Karate's popularity.

The first principle that must be understood is that karate is not about win or lose. It is about not losing. Its hard to get into much else unless this is appreciated.

If one does not wish to embrace this, then there are a million MMA/ Combat/ Ultimate Fighting Commando studios out there to choose from.

Happy Training

Rob Rivers

Sorry for interrupting the discussion, but I have to respond to this. MMA is, in fact, about the exact same principles as karate for that matter: Not losing. Believe me. Whatever style or art you practice, it usually boils down to the same principles.

cheers,

robertmrivers
5th March 2009, 15:18
Thank you. Thank you for your support. However, I am positive that the principles that combative arts have in common that I speak of many people think are absent from karate.

It is far more than simply "not losing". It is far more than what people "think" they see when they see a karate practitioner execute a basic block or punch.


Rob

Cufaol
5th March 2009, 17:17
It is indeed a rather complicated matter. I have trained in Gendai Jujutsu and Genbukan Ninpo for some years and now I train MMA. So far, I noticed that in good, decent schools with proper instructors (whether it be a MMA or Gendai Budo school) the mind set and principles offered are roughly the same. It is just the way you learn to strike or execute a movement that differs from style to style. I guess it is a matter of where you put the focus in your training that makes the difference...?

greetings,

Kchef
27th May 2009, 22:11
It's my guess that this Rickster guys probably trains in a bunch of different styles and is trying to diffend his lack of study or prep. People like this often go thru life tasting different things until they tire of it and then move on to the next challenge, not realizing that they barely touched the surface the first time around. "An expert on everything, but a master of none!" or so they would believe...

I can't imagine a sensei wouldn't cover the basics of repetition. We should probably assume that they did but clearly the student didn't hear a word of it. He wanted to get home as quickly as he could to watch some MMA match and picture himself doing the same techniques, all the while eating a tub of ice cream, and drinking a Bud saying " One of these days, I'm gona get up off this couch and maybe lose a few pounds."

IMO

Kevin

Richard Scardina
28th May 2009, 00:22
It's my guess that this Rickster guys probably trains in a bunch of different styles and is trying to diffend his lack of study or prep. People like this often go thru life tasting different things until they tire of it and then move on to the next challenge, not realizing that they barely touched the surface the first time around. "An expert on everything, but a master of none!" or so they would believe...

I can't imagine a sensei wouldn't cover the basics of repetition. We should probably assume that they did but clearly the student didn't hear a word of it. He wanted to get home as quickly as he could to watch some MMA match and picture himself doing the same techniques, all the while eating a tub of ice cream, and drinking a Bud saying " One of these days, I'm gona get up off this couch and maybe lose a few pounds."

IMO

Kevin

Your guess is incorrect. This is just a open discussion

yoj
28th May 2009, 00:27
Though not a discussion you've seemed terribly interested in ;)

e-budoka
28th May 2009, 00:50
take the chamber for a straight punch (upturned fist to side of body- elbow protruding past back).

It has also been suggested to me that rather than 'generating power' or being a secret aplication- this technique is there simply to strengthen the lats/ other back and shoulder muscles. conditioning these while also conditioning the punching tools- seems fairly clever to me- but then I am typing this with a bad cold (swine flu..!!!?????) and two sreaming kids running around. _ I will have a look at it later and see if it still makes sense.
;)

Richard Scardina
28th May 2009, 03:47
Though not a discussion you've seemed terribly interested in ;)

The response was overwhelming. Most of what I was going to say, has been said.

CEB
4th June 2009, 17:56
Karate is what Karate does.

DustyMars
4th June 2009, 18:41
Karate is what Karate does.

That's right, Forrest ;)

Moenstah
6th June 2009, 14:24
It all depends on one's methodology. Chambering is a tool, just like any other. Some use it for grabbing an opponent's arm, others for the use of the whole body while blocking/punching. Or a combination of the two.

Endless drilling in rows may be useful in large classes full with beginners, or even as a stamina building drill, but that's about it.

e-budoka
7th June 2009, 06:20
It all depends on one's methodology. Chambering is a tool, just like any other. Some use it for grabbing an opponent's arm, others for the use of the whole body while blocking/punching. Or a combination of the two.

Endless drilling in rows may be useful in large classes full with beginners, or even as a stamina building drill, but that's about it.

Quite.
BTW, I did not intend to convey that I subscribed exclusively to the idea that I mentioned earlier(chamber for conditioning muscles)- just wanted to highlight that the applications/ benefits (and sometimes the intentions of the design) of techniques, go beyond what might be obvious on initial examination- in much the same way as you have, by pointing out the concept of catching a limb of the enemy with the chambering hand.

I am a big fan of the use of imagination- or you could say, conceptual flexibility in the utilisation/ and training of techniques.
we all have to do this at some level- if only when applying them "at the right time" as we judge it.
but it also pays, IMO, to apply some free thinking to teh usefulness of techniques during practice- no point leaving the 'what if' to when you step on the battleground huh?

as always, a pleasure.

Richard Scardina
13th March 2010, 05:45
It all depends on one's methodology. Chambering is a tool, just like any other. Some use it for grabbing an opponent's arm, others for the use of the whole body while blocking/punching. Or a combination of the two.

Endless drilling in rows may be useful in large classes full with beginners, or even as a stamina building drill, but that's about it.

Thanks for this reply. Very simple and direct.