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qtaro04
8th March 2009, 07:04
I recently started back practicing Shorinji Kempo after two years of not being able to practice due there not being a dojo in central California. During the time when I couldn't practice Shorinji Kempo, I practiced Goju-Ryu karate. I also had to give up Goju-Rye also since I moved to San Diego, CA. There is a new Kyokushin Karate dojo near my house and I would like to practice Kyokushin as well as Shorinji Kempo. Do you think that this is a good idea?

Rob Gassin
8th March 2009, 20:36
There are a few issue with cross training but no absolute contra-indications. On the otherh and there are also positives.

My suggestion to you would be to cross train in something like Judo or BJJ instead of kyokushin. The reason is that the techniques you will learn are different enough to avoid confusion.

I am not sure of your level of proficiency in SK but my personal view is that if you have trained for less than 2 to 3 years, cross training might affect your technique. Overall you will improve but the end result might not be unalterated SK or kyokushin

Kyokushin is a very powerful and effective form of karate. My impression is that its underlying philosophy is quite different from SK. THis might also present problems.

Having said all this, when I started SK, I did shotokan Karate concurrently for 2 years. I'm not sure if overall it affected me positively or negatively.

Cheers,

qtaro04
9th March 2009, 07:22
Thank you for your reply Robert, I will take what you have said into consideration.

Benni
12th March 2009, 16:10
I’ve been practicing other martial arts while doing Shorinji Kempo for the last 11 years and the only thing I want to add to Rob’s answer is the importance of having a good solid reason for practicing something else on the side. I believe it could be easy to get lost otherwise. Reasons could include, for example, be comfortable on the ground, increase and learn more about timing, be more relaxed during very in-close fighting, have calm mind during sitting zen, etc. The reasons will be different from person to person.

Blue Popovic
13th March 2009, 10:20
We regularly come accross this idea that if you train in other martial arts too, you will benefit from it too.
I do not believe so, at all.

The questions every SK kenshi should ask themselves are
How hard am i really training ?
How much energy am I really putting into Shorinji Kempo training ?
Am I happy to plateau, do I want to grow, to which level?
Do I want to only receive instruction or do I want one day to pass it on and open a branch?
What is Shorinji Kempo within my life?

Shorinji kempo is a complete martial art, that, if learned steadily and seriously, will have adequate answers to any attack & situation- let alone the philosophy part that makes it unique.
There is no reason to go somewhere else and get distracted my another kind of training. Your Shorinji kempo form will suffer from it, your kihon will become sloppy. I have seen it and continue to see it sometimes.
The idea that " you can't serve 2 masters at the same time" springs to mind too : why are some people incapable of putting all their will and energy in just one thing ??? You cannot do more than one martial art at a time and master any fully.

I know, mine is a pretty strong and uncompromising line, but my mind is focused and my resolve strong ; I am and will remain a Shorinji Kempo kenshi, not a martial-salad kenshi!

PeterL
13th March 2009, 12:51
Shorinji kempo is a complete martial art, that, if learned steadily and seriously, will have adequate answers to any attack & situation- let alone the philosophy part that makes it unique.
There is no reason to go somewhere else and get distracted my another kind of training. Your Shorinji kempo form will suffer from it, your kihon will become sloppy.

A few thoughts...
For the record, I only study SK nd have no plans (at present to study another).

I agree that SK is complete but that does not mean that other MAs have nothing to offer. I think if you really enjoyed juho, then aikido might appeal to you. (I am sure there are other and better examples...)

From what I have read here, I think there are MANY reasons for foreign kenshi to study something else. One thing that comes to mind - in Australia - extremely slow grading.... Another is the limited chances to practice at a dojo with other kenshi. Also, from what I have read here kenshi can generally train twice per week, and many travel great distances to do so. I think the lack of opportunity to practice as often as you would like it one point in favor of trying another MA.

I am in a fortunate situation and our doin has training 3x per week. When I go to both the adult and kids classes, I am practicing for 9 hours per week plus hanging around after for a bit. Since kenshi are generally welcome any doin, I could easily practice in a doin 7 days per week!!

Not everyone is so fortunate and I can see why some people might seek another MA.


Cheers

Peter

Benni
13th March 2009, 19:37
The questions every SK kenshi should ask themselves are
How hard am i really training ?
How much energy am I really putting into Shorinji Kempo training ?
Am I happy to plateau, do I want to grow, to which level?
Do I want to only receive instruction or do I want one day to pass it on and open a branch?
What is Shorinji Kempo within my life?


Agree - these are all great questions that are good to ask yourself. There are, of course, no right or wrong answers.



Shorinji kempo is a complete martial art, that, if learned steadily and seriously, will have adequate answers to any attack & situation


That depends on how you define a complete martial art. To say that Shorinji Kempo has adequate answers to any attack & situation is a stretch. One example would be knife fighting.



- let alone the philosophy part that makes it unique.


I couldn't agree more. You can only twist an arm in a number of directions and a lot of the technical techniques look the same in martial arts on a higher level, but the philosophy is very unique.



There is no reason to go somewhere else and get distracted my another kind of training.


People have different reasons. You might not agree with them, but for some they are valid reasons.



Your Shorinji kempo form will suffer from it, your kihon will become sloppy. I have seen it and continue to see it sometimes.


There is a risk with this, especially if you haven't practice Shorinji Kempo for a longer time, and/or the kenshi doesn't have a purpose with training something else. However, if done correctly, it can also enhance your Shorinji Kempo skills tremendously (depending on the person). I think one of the greater differences between martial arts is not necessary the way a kick or a punch is performed (although it can look very different for a beginner), but more the emphasis and/or strategy/tactic. This is a little hard to explain through a forum like this, but what some teachers think as basic training other teachers might think of as high level training and vice versa. Sometimes, by experiencing other arts it can help you understand the higher levels of some techniques, or to understand the basic principles better.



You cannot do more than one martial art at a time and master any fully.


I never understand comments like this one. I guess it all comes down to how you define "master" an art. If this it true it means that a martial art is suddenly born from nowhere and stays the same after that. That soft and hard techniques were created exactly at the same time in the same system. That nothing was added. What if a founder of a system initially only incorporated straight punches, but later decided that hook punches would be good and added them to? Did he just make the system impossible to master?



I am and will remain a Shorinji Kempo kenshi, not a martial-salad kenshi!

Please, can we try to leave out comments like these? There are a lot of strong opinions about this (try the search function and you will know what I mean), but there is no need to start calling a certain group "martial-salad kenshi".

People have different thoughts and reasons. Personally, experiencing other arts have helped me develop a lot in different areas. If others walked the same path as me, maybe they wouldn't. The funny thing is that it's always the people who are strongly against cross training that says that it's completely useless and that you can learn the same in Shorinji Kempo. How could they possibly know?

Finally, how do you define cross training? Other martial arts? What about boxing? That's a sport, so is that still cross training? If that is cross training, what about fencing? Running? What about sitting zen?

colin linz
14th March 2009, 00:10
Just some personal observations on my part, based on my own experience teaching Shorinji Kempo, learning Shorinji Kempo, and the occasional cross training in other arts.

To start with I believe Shorinji Kempo lacks the organisational depth in some countries to truly offer the training that can engaged people for any length of time. There are only so many years that you can practise the same waza over and over without becoming a little bored with the training. It is also very human to look for other alternatives to your martial art training when you are committed and enthusiastic, but your local Shorinji Kempo branch is 50klm away or more and it is impossible to get there as often as you would desire.

I don’t cross train anymore, but I have in the past. I have seen many other martial artists come and train in Shorinji Kempo. From my observations it is generally Karate and Tae kwon do practitioners that struggle the most. They seem to have a great deal of trouble relaxing and are very ridged in their movements. This suggests to me that these arts may inhibit your development in Shorinji Kempo. I have trained in Hapkido, and while it is similar in its combination of striking, locks and throws, the training methodology was very different. I did do some Tae Kwon Do for a while when posted to an area where the closest Shorinji Kempo branch was a six or seven hour drive. It had very little to compare with Shorinji Kempo, but like the Hapkido, it did provide an opportunity to do something. Prior to training in Shorinji Kempo I studied Judo and Boxing. Of the various arts I’ve tried I would look at these as providing a good cross training experience.

While the concept of one master is valid, it is also true that even in Japan many of the sensei have looked outside Shorinji Kempo as a way of understanding Shorinji Kempo better. I wouldn’t advise being a martial arts tourist as such, but I do see some value in serious research of more than one art, but as with others I would recommend a good grounding in one first.

paul browne
14th March 2009, 11:23
Gassho,

This topic has been thrashed over Soooooo many times before. Reasons (paraphrased) against range between the 'better to concentrate on one topic' to 'you are a traitor betraying your masters and the founder !!!!'. Reasons for are variety of training, gaining a different perspective on training and availability of dojo's for regular practice.
For the record my thoughts are allied to Colin and Benni.

More importantly can we lay of the Shorinji Zealot comments, frankly they are insulting to every kenshi whomay happen to hold a different viewpoint or experiences to you.

Regards
Paul
Kesshu

Tripitaka of AA
14th March 2009, 15:30
More importantly can we lay off the Shorinji Zealot comments, frankly they are insulting to every kenshi who may happen to hold a different viewpoint or experiences to you.

Regards
Paul
Kesshu


Aaaah, but equally, your viewpoints may be offensive to those to whom the term Shorinji Zealot may be appropriate. ;)

This might be where someone chimes in with "What does your Sensei think about it?"... I seem to recall that some of those past debates went down that road at some point. Then there is the bit about "The relationship between master and student is akin to that of a marriage - you wouldn't be unfaithful to your wife, would you?!".

May I recommend spending some time reading the old threads about cross-training. There are some brilliantly written posts that will persuade you first one way and then the other... interrupted by frequent, abrupt and annoying comments that appear to have been thought up by a collection of junior baboons arguing over territorial rights.Read them, they can be fun.

But bear in mind that while some of the participants are still around, they are entitled to have modified their opinions since then (some of the threads are 4-5 yeards old).

Rob Gassin
14th March 2009, 17:47
Further to my previous post and in response to Blue, I would like to make a few points.

1. For many of us, Shorinji Kempo is not a complete martial art. After 26 years, I have noy yet learnt defences against ground fighting techniques, judo and hapkido sweeps and the hand techniques of wing chung.

2. As long as you only practice SK, you will only learn defences against SK attacks. When I'm in the mood, i use Hapkido kicks and sweeps in randori, it causes tremendous problems for the other kenshi, a they are not used to it.

3. Cross training has hepled me greatly in understanding the rationale behind SK techniques.

4. Cross training has allowed me to try SK techniques against non SK attacks or situations.

I agree with other posters that he decision to cross train is an individual choice.

Cheers, Rob

Blue Popovic
14th March 2009, 19:33
but what I wanted to say was essentially that it's a shame some may feel the need to put some of their time and energy in another martial art rather than working at improving Shorinji Kempo itself from within.
And yes, i was talking about Japanese kenshi or westerners who have plenty of opportunities to train locally whenever they want.

Rob, I used to live in Australia and I am aware of the distance between dojos making it very hard to train with new kenshi/ organise seminars... and I UNDERSTAND that there or elsewhere, kenshi may feel the need to gain extra knowledge, even outside of Shoriji Kempo
And i am glad for some of the replies to my ...ALRIGHT, MY RANTING!

So the question I really really wanted to ask was the following : do you think that Shorinji Kempo as it is now would benefit or suffer from incorporating moves/techniques borrowed from other martial arts, if/when those moves/techniques come from branchmasters cross-training and without realising/on purpose, slowly change their teaching?

Those who know me personnally do know I have been taught in a very orthodox way, which I do favour.
Nevertheless, I proactively train in very different dojos and very much enjoy what I gain from more "liberal" branchmasters, so the accusation of zealotry is misplaced. And I came face to face with real dangerous ugly zealotry in my life...it is a million light years away from my earlier comments.

Kesshu.

colin linz
14th March 2009, 23:25
I think the best option is to keep them separated, but at some stage there may be some melding. I wouldn’t expect that until a sufficiently high level of the base art is reached (Ri possibly).

I believe Yamasaki sensei has just issued a DVD of his new way of doing Shorinji Kempo. In reality he has been developing this for some time and there would be a number of kenshi out there who have benefited from his new approach. I think that would be classed as beneficial to Shorinji Kempo. This is not meant to say that his way is better than some other instructor, just that it offers another take on the techniques and this alone is useful to experience.

colin linz
14th March 2009, 23:28
Further to my previous post and in response to Blue, I would like to make a few points.

1. For many of us, Shorinji Kempo is not a complete martial art. After 26 years, I have noy yet learnt defences against ground fighting techniques, judo and hapkido sweeps and the hand techniques of wing chung.

2. As long as you only practice SK, you will only learn defences against SK attacks. When I'm in the mood, i use Hapkido kicks and sweeps in randori, it causes tremendous problems for the other kenshi, a they are not used to it.

3. Cross training has hepled me greatly in understanding the rationale behind SK techniques.

4. Cross training has allowed me to try SK techniques against non SK attacks or situations.

I agree with other posters that he decision to cross train is an individual choice.

Cheers, Rob
Rob,

Your not wagging your seminar are you? Or are you back in the land of Oz

ocatford
15th March 2009, 11:29
...so no subject of study should be considered in isolation - or at least that is my belief. I frequently equate learning Shorinji Kempo to learning a foreign language (having studied one at univeristy). When you study a language you begin with the vocab lists (kihon), then learn set phrases (hokei), practice role-plays (embu) or simply practice open conversation (randori).

My point though is that you are encouraged to seek out the language in other mediums - the classroom can only provide limited sphere of influence - languages (with the notable exception of Latin) are "live" meaning that they are constantly evolving in order to survive. A student will therefore read literature, watch movies, study history or current events, all to expose them to real, live outside influences that will ensure that the development of the language is relevant and robust.

I believe that these mothods are applicable to the learning of Shorinji Kempo. Just as studying Japanese might broaden our understanding of the cultural roots Shorinji Kempo, so studying other martial arts (albeit not exhaustively) should improve our understanding of the techniques.

About two years into studying Shorinji Kempo, when I was a blue-belt looking towards my brown, I was obliged to move away from Kempo to continue my university studies abroad. As the Kempo bug had well and truly bitten me I went looking for alternatives while I was away. The longest I stayed in any one style was 3 months, the shortest just 2 sessions. In the end I inevitably left each style because they either conflicted with the good habits I had already learned, or lacked aspects that I considered essential (lack of Howa or ethical content, lack of Kiais and fighting spirit, and lack of realism - one particular memory of sparring in Ju-jitsu with a black-belt who seemed to think that my sokoto-geri to jodan was irrelivant "because it's worth less points than a throw"). Regardless of my reasons for leaving each one, I learned something new from each of them.

Looking back on that time though I realise that I was lucky and in exactly the right "place" to expose myself to other influences. As a blue-belt I was confident in my kihon, developing an understanding of the principles behind techniques, fit as a butcher's dog, a keen advocate of Kempo but not skeptical of other martial arts, and above all, bloody desperate to continue my development by any means. Perhaps if I had been a more junior grade, or less sure of Kempo it might have confused me.

In the end though I found out that while I learned a lot from experiencing other styles, it was rather the time in between them when I reflected on what I had learned from them and Kempo - in techniques as well as philosphy - that I consolidated my understanding and learned the value of what I had seen and experienced. And if I had become confused? Then I would have naturally tended to the influence that I deemed the most appropriate, or would have given up. A little confusion is no dangerous thing if it forces you to question your values. If it then causes you to abandon your path then I would argue that you were not comitted to the goal in any case.

I think it is inevitable that we experience plateaus in our practice of Kempo, so nowadays I embrace these and take them as cues to look further afield for inspiration and enlightenment. I watch martial arts movies, I buy books an different types of fitness training, I go to various exercise classes, I surf YouTube and the internet in general (current favourite is GymJones.com for a hard-core training philosophy!). I believe that such a desire to learn and take selectively from other sources stimulates development - not just in Kempo, but in my job as well - and my development and improved understanding (and even my mistakes) then have a knock-on effect for those who train with me so that our practice doesn't stagnate. Isn't this how Doshin So arrived at creating Shorinji Kempo in any case?

I'm not advocating that we each try to reinvent Shorinji Kempo, but I believe that good students should continue the work of the teacher. Do we believe that Doshin So considered Shorinji Kempo a finished article when he died? Or would he have looked to constantly review this vehicle of Kongo Zen and taken training methods from further sources as tools for exploring the discipline further?

Interestingly, out at the Spring Camp in Honbu two weeks ago the shodans from our club were surprised to be made to do Taiso to music - think Tsuki ten ichi to "Kung Fu Fighting" among other things - this was done on more than one occasion. Note that this was done as Taiso and not as Kihon.

In our dojo this has been a training method suggested by kenshi in the past, but it has been felt that it was undignified and reduced Kempo to a type of Kick-boxercise class. To find that Honbu do not appear to be concerned about this has come of something of a surprise - was this an example they intended to set to the sensei's of tomorrow? If so then I feel that it demonstrates a promotion of "cross-training" for variety and exploration.

colin linz
15th March 2009, 12:13
Interestingly, out at the Spring Camp in Honbu two weeks ago the shodans from our club were surprised to be made to do Taiso to music - think Tsuki ten ichi to "Kung Fu Fighting" among other things - this was done on more than one occasion. Note that this was done as Taiso and not as Kihon.

In our dojo this has been a training method suggested by kenshi in the past, but it has been felt that it was undignified and reduced Kempo to a type of Kick-boxercise class. To find that Honbu do not appear to be concerned about this has come of something of a surprise - was this an example they intended to set to the sensei's of tomorrow? If so then I feel that it demonstrates a promotion of "cross-training" for variety and exploration.
I was surprised by this on my first visit to hombu (89 Taikai). It was quite different to my experience with taiso here in Australia. Not only was there music, but not one push-up done the entire time I was there. ;)

Steve Malton
15th March 2009, 14:00
I think Olly's analogy to learning a language has a lot of validity. Imagine learning French - as he said you pick up words, phrases, learn to respond in a set situation, then talk freely. Now imagine that there are no French classes near by, so you go to German lessons. Now, learning German won't help your French vocabulary or grammar - it may even hinder it as there are a lot of structural differences. But the skills you develop for how to learn a language will be of use when you make it back to French class. And if you do something similar (say Spanish instead of German) then a new viewpoint may teach things that you hadn't thought about before that you can take back. And of course, there are words in some languages that don't have a direct equivalent (schadenfreude, for example), but their meaning can still be expressed and it doesn't make the language any less rich or complete for not having them.

I've had this in both language and in Shorinji Kempo. I have learnt smatterings of several languages, and when I don't have time to work everything out in advance my sentences come out with words from all of them instead of the one I intend to speak in! In a similar same way, it took me about two years from stopping doing hapkido before there were no(?) traces of it in my Shorinji Kempo. I'm certain that if I had tried to train in both then I would never have been able to perform kempo techniques in a purely kempo way (maybe I still don't! :D), but having spent several years doing hapkido before, I would probably have been able to have kept that fairly clear of kempo influences.

I think it depends on what you want. If you want to improve your range of fighting skills, learn new defences and attacks, expand your horizons, then cross training has great benefits. To me, the goal is to explore Shorinji Kempo as fully as possible, to fit myself into that one framework rather than to fit into different bits of different frameworks, so while I can still do kempo cross training isn't an option.

Tripitaka of AA
15th March 2009, 16:28
Fitting one other viewpoint into the discussion, does not necessarily mean that I disapprove or disagree with my learned colleagues.. but I would like to offer an angle that has not yet been mentioned in this thread.

It is in a simplified form, and does not relate directly to me, or anyone else, but please consider the following scenario;

I am a beginner, a novice, a child. I know nothing more than that I wish to learn. I go to a teacher, I ask him "please teach me". He gives me some basic movements to copy. He watches. He gives me some more challenging pieces. He watches me. He adjusts my position and makes suggestions where I might improve. He may be teaching others at the same time and for the most part, what he says will be universally applicable, but sometimes he says something specifically to me and I listen to it. The teacher is teaching me. I am learning.

At what point will I have learned enough to say "you aren't teaching me all that I need to know"? How will I know? How can I say "I need more xxx-movements, or yyy-techniques", if I haven't learned all that the teacher has to offer?

Is it a cultural thing to say that a student should be in obeisance to his teacher until he has reached the level where he can become a teacher? It is perhaps an old-fashioned view that has been superseded by modern methods of communication... you might say we can learn from many sources now, that wouldn't have been available in the past. If a student can learn by watching his master perform a technique, why can't he learn from watching a DVD? If a student can learn by listening to a lecture, why can't he learn by reading from a book? My own view is that the Teacher is in the best position to advise a student on the best course of action, from "when to grade" to "how to train", "which exercises to drill" and "when to move on". If the Teacher recommends watching a set of DVDs then do it, if he says don't then don't.

This level of trust in the instructor is why it is so important to choose the right instructor and why it is so important for the Instructor to be as good as he can possibly be. It also explains why Instructors who follow this principle, might be quite offended by the student who proclaims "I do this on Tuesdays and Fridays, but on Mondays and Wednesdays I do something else" (therby implying that they don't trust the instructor).

Rob Gassin
15th March 2009, 16:47
Rob,

Your not wagging your seminar are you? Or are you back in the land of Oz

Wagging my Seminar.

Whilst here, I have had the opportunity to train with the New York Branch. A great expeience!! I also had the pleasure of meeting a regular E-Budo contributor, Raul (Luar). A real gentleman - which is consistent with the high quality of his regular posts.

Rob Gassin
15th March 2009, 16:50
So the question I really really wanted to ask was the following : do you think that Shorinji Kempo as it is now would benefit or suffer from incorporating moves/techniques borrowed from other martial arts.

Kesshu.

No, SK should stick at what it is good at. Kenshi who want to learn more should feel free to do so if they choose to.

paul browne
15th March 2009, 23:34
Gassho

Hi Blue,


I know, mine is a pretty strong and uncompromising line, but my mind is focused and my resolve strong ; I am and will remain a Shorinji Kempo kenshi, not a martial-salad kenshi!

Zea'lot - noun, zealous person; uncompromising or extreme partizan, fanatic.
OED. ;).

As Dave said this has been thrashed over before and ultimately comes down to personal preference.
I occasionally cross train in Aikido/Aikijujutsu simply because getting to my nearest branch leaves a carbon footprint that means I drown a Polar bear every time i train, and it allows me to practice in a class where I can occasionally practice my Juho waza (by far my weakest area) and get an insight into how other arts approach the same problems. Coupled with the fact that the teachers are very skilled and thoroughly decent chaps.
In the past I have been fortunate enough to practice in my (various) branches with kenshi that have meaningful past experience in Judo, karate, kobudo and kickboxing. This has always proved beneficial to my Shorinji Kempo,and not been detrimental to theirs (Ok the karateka tend to be a little 'stiff' in their movements, but often hit like freight trains:))
As regards if you teach, so long as you are honest as to the source of a particular 'non-shorinji' waza, where's the harm?
Anyway, lets agree to differ :), hopefully one day we can train together and I'm sure your zealous passion for Shorinji and my 'salad bowl' Shorinji will compliment each other and make a first rate Shorinji picnic:).
Regards
paul
Kesshu

johan_frendin
18th March 2009, 07:29
Gassho!

In a scientific view there are several books written in the subject cross training for athletes.

Two Swedish books (for the Swedish, Finnish and Norwegian kenshis) are really good to study if you are interested in the subject.


Greco roman world champion wrestler Martin Lidberg together with and Swedish researcher Johnny Nilsson have written a book called Kombinationsträning. Athletes like NHL player Peter Forsberg and Carolina Klüft world champion Heptathlon have followed this method.
http://http://www.bokus.com/b/9789185433285.html



Another Swedish book is crosstraining för alla idrottare (crosstraining for all athletes).

http://http://opac.pitea.se/sv/opac/visa_visa.asp?bokid=0000134875&host_nr=1

Great crosstraining sites on the internet are;

http://www.crossfit.com
http://www.gymjones.com
http://http://www.dbmax.co.uk
http://http://www.beastskills.com/
http://http://www.rosstraining.com/

Johan Frendin

Robert Liljeblad
18th March 2009, 11:59
Hi all,

I can recommend "The warriors guide to underground fitness" the book is written by Ross Enamait. Same guy that runs the website in the last of Johan's links.

Regards,

Robert

Andartar
18th March 2009, 13:55
I believe that it is important to have a thourogh grounding in one martial art before starting to train in a different one. In my experience this makes it easier to distinguish the arts from each other and not mix techniques.

Before I started Shorinji Kempo in 2005, I had practised Judo for 13 years and Aikido for some odd 4 years. I would say that my previous experince with aikido made it easier for me to understand the Juho of Shorinji Kempo, even though it is performed somewhat differently.
I still practice Judo and I don't find it hard at all to keep the two arts separate. For me it has been benificial to cross-train in these arts because when I practise Shorinji Kempo I'm always aware of how a judoka would respond and vice-versa.