Differences in Okinawan and Japanese M.A. culture?

[Jari Virta]

Are there any glaring differences between the martial training culture and customs between Okinawans and Japanese? Now I'm talking about the "old school" stuff, koryu stuff, or when Japan had it's feudal structure...

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by Jim Kass
Night and Day, you need to experience, can not be spoken!

Mr. Kass is dead on. They are most different. One must experience both and pay close atention while doing so. Some of the differences are very subtle, most are less so.

Interestingly enough, in my experience, many of the fundamental, underlying principles and goals are the same .. but the curriculum, cultural context and overall style of learning/instruction are often very, very different.

Take care
__________________
Doug Daulton

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 02-04-2001 at 02:07 AM]

[kusanku]

I must agree. Fundamentals of all mattial arts usually very much the same,, but differences in culture and specifics are vast.


usanku

[Jari Virta]

Originally posted by Jim Kass
can not be spoken!

I think I was a bit misunderstood here. Of course it can be spoken! I for example have studied Bujinkan Taijutsu, Filipino Kali and now started Shorin-Ryu Karate. If anyone asks me, I can definitely tell about the cultural differences in the training hall, class, instruction methods, atmosphere etc.

[Dave Lowry]

Mr. Virta has asked for significant, observable distinctions in the combative arts of Okinawa, mainland Japan, and the Philippines, and has, if I am interpreting correctly his later posts, expressed frustration at the responses. The question he has posed, however, is enormously broad and in some perspectives, recondite.

A couple of points: Mr. Virta; you note that relationships between teacher and students at your kali class tend toward the familial and anti-egalitarian. The atmosphere is relaxed and informal. You contrast this with a karate class, where relationships are militaristic in terms of hierarchy and comportment. I’m sure your reflections are accurate descriptions of your experiences. Is it your contention that this kali class, however, and that karate class constitute a definitive representation of the way in which these two arts are taught? Based on these two experiences do you feel your exposure to these arts in general is wide and sufficient to draw adequate conclusions?

Secondly, is it your contention that the behaviour in these classes is accurately representative of the way these arts are traditionally taught? If I open what I call a “Finnish restaurant” in Tucson and serve ravioli and spaghetti, would a customer be accurate in saying that Finnish food tastes a lot like Italian cuisine? No. He is making an inaccurate conclusion based on a faulty representation of mine.
I’ve noticed that many, many training halls labeling themselves “traditional Okinawan karate” are run by individuals who have never even been to Okinawa, know nothing of the culture and who, in some cases, may actually be teaching techniques that have never even been practised in Okinawa. Conclusions drawn about the “way things are done in Okinawan karate” based upon a participation or observation of these places are going to have some serious flaws.

The examples you provide are based on the teaching approaches and general comportment of the classes. Broadly, here are some differences:

Filipino culture has been shaped by diverse influences, including Indonesian, Aeta, Malaysian, Chinese, Indian, and other cultures. Islam was introduced in the 13th century, adding another influence. The Philippines had a very long colonial period, where Western nations brought their own behaviours and traditions. All of this has affected the structure of your kali class and can account in a significant way for the behaviour there. The primary social unit through much of this history was the barangay, or small village in the Philippines. Combat was largely between these villages. There was no strict feudal structure; community cohesion was maintained by family relationships within the village. This lack of formal hierarchy and the model of the family as a prototype of social relationships would, in probability, have been replicated in the teaching of combative arts. That may be one reason your kali class is informal and conducted as it is.

Okinawa was influenced culturally by China and Japan, but maintained a distinctive indigenous culture, based to some extent on ubudi-habudi, a kind of ancestor worship. There was also a well-defined feudal structure, based on Chinese prototypes. Similar to the Philippines, combat tended to be between villages. Not surprisingly, traditionally, Okinawan fighting arts were/are taught in a similar way as in the Philippines, with little formality or military-type discipline. Even so, the influences of feudalism, which were later imported in a slightly different form from mainland Japan, would have obtained and so there is a form of hierarchy evident in the teaching/learning structure of Okinawan arts. You can see evidence of this in the usutui, the intercessory “manners” of Okinawan religious ceremonies, which have elabourate methods of bowing. Likewise, Okinawan languages are based largely on varying levels of speech depending upon one’s “station.” Therefore, there is some of this formality in the Okinawan dojo. It would be, again generally speaking, somewhat more formal than the Filipino model.

Japanese culture has been influenced by Chinese sources and by its own, indigenous characteristics. When karate was imported to mainland Japan, many of the behaviours of a feudal, militaristic culture were grafted onto karate training. You must also remember that karate was introduced at a period where Japan was arming itself and forming its own plans for taking over Asia. Strong military influences reached every part of its culture. A lot of the behaviour you describe in your karate class can be ascribed to these non-native (i.e., non-Okinawan) influences. Further, when US military personnel began learning karate in the Fifties, they added their own military approach, creating a “boot camp” atmosphere of the sort you describe. Because karate was taught in Japan so widely within the university system, there was also a heavy element of sophomoric “team spirit” injected, and this was definitely imported to the West when Japanese instructors began teaching here. So it could be argued that what you are calling “Okinawan karate” is actually a little bit of the original, altered to some large extent through outside, Japanese influences, then altered again through Western military and other cultural influences.

I hope you can understand, reading this, the enormity of the question you asked. If you could, perhaps, be more specific about which behaviours or customs you have questions, I’m confident members much more learned and qualified than I could address them.

Cordially,

[kusanku]

Dave Lowry mentions some of the differences and accurately .

Jari, your Shorinryu class is modeled on the Japanese and American militaristic model,which s really not how it is taught on Okinawa.

My Okinawan Kenpo training in America wqas also like this for ars, and I was shocked, ad angered, after seeing how an Okinawan Tenth Dan actually teaches. relaxed, friendly, on eon one, sommewhat informal.

As Mr. Lowry says, lees formal than Japanese and with an entirely different spitir, but more formal than a Filipino arts class.

When I teach, we wear t-shirts and blue jeans, shoes, don't bow, no one calls me sensei, we all call each other by our first name, we do bow at beginning and end of class,to God.

No militarism, and each time we would go through specific drills designed to prepare us for kata and applications.

Our focus was self defense, and we would wear street clothes and sneakers , because that is what we might be wearing if attacked.

In Okinawa, the gi was used only after the Japanese introduced it, usually before the war was worn clothes, or a thing resembling a big Diaper.

Also as in earlier Okinawan kenpo, we don't use belt ranks, either you are an instructor, an assistant instructor,or a student.Three years for each level.

We basically went to an adaptation of the Chinese or earlier Okinawan way, after I found out how it really was done.

All our training centers on kata; basics for moving better in kata, kumite to apply kata(not free sparing but two person 'live' drills), kata done with appliations in mind, and applications taught for each move in kata, variations and levels of each type of application.

And equipment training, as the Okinawans use it , to remedy weaknesses in effective technique.


This is very little like Japanese collegiate-military budo training.

But not quite the same as the JKD or Filipino arts model which I also enjoy. More like a one on one Chinese Kungfu (Fujian) approach which was transplanted to Okinawa. The Okinawan religion, as Mr. Lowry states, does however exert a particular influence, maybe even to the shapes and fomrs of Okinawan kata, which appear to be designed to be performed in the square courtyards of Okinawan Family Tombs.

I will not here go into the esoteric reasons for such training, which do sound very strange to even western martial artist ears.:-)

But which to the Okinawan people are perfectly sound and pragmatic aids to training.Sort of a mixture of their religion and chi gong.

But this practice does have an effect on the embusen of Okinawan and Okinawan-derived kata, which is to say all karate kata.The Chinese forms do not always follow these patterns.

Anyway, tip of the iceberg, the training ways are very , very different.Her I should mention the Chinese ways, which except for champion fighters or tournament performers, is so light that those accustomed to Japanese or Okinawan or Filipino methods would think you are walking around half the time doing nothing, when in fact we are drinking tea, in say the Taiji Class, to help our ch'i settle.:-)

Chinese attitude is, unless you are training to do world class kungfu or fight off the Manchus:-),take it easy and get the energy circulating, do some vigorous if you so feel, and if not, take it easy, you have your whoe life.

Then those who are truly ambitious to achieve some first class skills, tke the initiative and get those on their own, and that is when the hard training occurs.

Many do Chinese arts , but in Chinese culture, only a relative few work really physically hard at it,(see R.W. Smith on this subject) preferring to achieve kung fu, skill over time, at an easier pace, which has been shown to be very healthy, and to bring results as well.

One Okinawan , looked on as I did about seven Okinawan kata for him, and said'You must really have been doing this a long time, huh?'

He lives with relatives who are seventh dan oin the same style I showed, but only knew, himself , a few excercises and a couple techniques.

Lots of people are like that, there.

In Japan, however, if one takes a sport or art, one strives to completely master it, over, and over, and over,and the teachers beklieve their job is to make you the best, or break you.:-)

It is theJapanese and American Military model we inherited here,and until recently applied to every Oriental Art we studied.

Okinawans scratch their heads, smile, ask,'What are you doing?'When they see how we train.

That isn't how they trrainat all.Stiff military stuff,just doesn't enter into it except inclasses taught for the US military.

Regards

[Dave Lowry]

Not so fast, Mr. Rousselot,
Fundoshi are Japanese, as you point out. But those "diapers" being worn in early karate photos are an Okinawan garment. In the refined Shuri dialect spoken by Mabuni, Motobu, and Funakoshi, these pant-like shorts, which are secured a little like a hakama, with strings that wrap around, would have been called "dji-isho" or "lower garment." Might be a more modern term in Okinawan for them; the experts here will know.

Cordially,

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by kusanku


All our training centers on kata; basics for moving better in kata, kumite to apply kata(not free sparing but two person 'live' drills), kata done with appliations in mind, and applications taught for each move in kata, variations and levels of each type of application.

Regards

Hello Vengel, have you posted these live drills somewhere here on E-Budo or at AMAKS or whatever exists in its place now?

If not, care to share? Thanks

M

[kusanku]

My friend Margaret Lo asks:'Vengel, where are these live drills,are they at AMAKs or elsewhere?If nt, care to share?'

Surely, my friend, and thanks, Dave Lowry, also, for mentioning those Okinawan garments the name of which I did not know.

Margaret, the live drills I teach all come off a series of existing motions in kata, which I was taught( the motions) by one of my teachers.

But the drills I do with them are in an order that I put together, and named the Eight Hands Drill.

It comes off the yoi position of many kata, and the up down blocks found in kata such as Pinan Sandan, Heian Three.

Basically it works like this:

1.Natural stance, hands at sides, open.

2.Cross hands in backs facing each other, palms out , in lower x block position.

3.Raise hands in x position past solar plexus to throat level, fingers now point up.

4.Open hands out, fingertips at eye level, palms forward.As though saying, hold it, or something.

This is a sequenced version of a startle response with a cross of the wrists up the center line for trpping applications, for blocking you can bring them straight up.

Now reverse sequence 4-3-2-1.Bring them down.

Now get those down, standing still.

Now start in center, hachijidachi, and slide step(suri ashi) to the left as you open out,1234 in one sequence.Now return to center as you come back down,4321 in one sequence.

Now after one series, 1234 -4321, go to right side with slide as you open out, and return to center left as you come in and down.

Get that down, and then,

5.cross arms at elbows( also wrists-variant), left on top and right underneath, hands open, palm out on top and facing right palm down on bottom)as you step forty five degrees left rear,in neko ashi dachi stance or teiji dachi stance, and face in to center.

6.As you come to stop, open arms out, into right crossing middle open hand block( haito uke), and left open lower sweeping lock(gedan shuto barai) .

7.Step across to right and turn in towards center, facing forty five degrees from outside of imaginary opponent's left arm, with open palm right dross block on top, elbows criossed and left open palm cross down block under, reversing position five.

8. Open hands out reversing position six, and doing the middle haito with left open hand and lower open down block with left hand.

Then reverse directions on steps five to eight, then add 1234, 4321,56788, 5678 reverse.

Sixteen operations for the whole thing.

Then with a partner, practice eight hands from inside and outside, pass and check with the hands, crossing under and over, every possible way and try to wind up on the outside each time.

Ninth hand-Then for inside, have them grab your lapels , good and hard, and open hands up from inside as in Kanku Dai, slowly, and make pyramid with forearms, now push up and out with arms slanting at forty five, now wrap their arms like in Kanku Dai.Move head to side to avoid head butt.

Now just do one two thre four, and block inside of arms, now cross one wrist with shuto under the other arm, and wind up on outside of arms.

The positions six and eight, are like Heian Three, crossing double blocks.

Now after you get all this down and get the feel of controlling and unbalancing the opponent's body with your intercepting hands and forearms, try this against all forms of wrist grabs, cross down on top with x block and do the drill, now try against pushing attacks, slow first, then faster, now against punching, striking, kicking and stabbng attacks with a rubber or plastic dagger now against a stick, and so on, and internalize the principles of this drill.

Now do your kata, and do the entry to the techniques in them, using these principles.

Glad to be of any help,
Take Care,
John

[Jari Virta]

Let me thank you Mr. Lowry and the others who have put great effort into writing a thoughtful response to my questions. Thank you very much.

[Jari Virta]

I wanted to know what was training like before the modernization or Japanisation happened during the last century. I found an enlightening letter written by Sensei Smith. The letter can be read online at:

http://home.drenik.net/joemilos/letter_2.htm

Notice how he explains the differences between the teaching methods of the two instructors of different generations.

[MikeCallender]

Mr Lowry
I was under the impression the military-like atmosphere of Karate training was introduced by the Japanese Military (vice the US Military) once they recognized karate's "physical fitness" potential. Consequently during the Occupation, the US military service members quickly adapted to the strict, orderly teaching methodology.
Can you shed any light on the development of modern karate instructional methods? Thank you

v/r

Mike Callender

[yamatodamashii]

I don't know how karate was traditionally taught in Okinawa (other than stories of Funakoshi doing countless kata repetions for his instructors); but I can tell you how some Okinawan instructors teach today.

Kisei Fusei sensei, the highest ranked karateka in the world, begins his class with the "bow to sensei/bow to sempai" routine. Then he progresses to a set routine of calisthenics, then to a set routine of technique combinations. The majority of class is spent with people of the same kyu training in kata together, and may be supplemented with three-step sparring drills or (rarely) free sparring.

Shimabukuro Eizo sensei, one of the great surviving karatejutsu instructors and brother of the founder of Isshinryu, also begins with "bowing"; however, he skips the calisthenics in favor of kihon practice. This is followed by one and three-step sparring, and then by kata--almost always practiced with a partner "attacking" you. Most classes end with weapon kata training (done "solo").

I have trained in neither mainland Japan nor the PI, but perhaps someone could compare/contrast.

[PRehse]

You know of course the Japanese controlled Okinawa long before WWII.

I must point out also that the training atmosphere in many Japanese Koryus and neighbourhood gendai dojos are very informal and relaxed. Even my college dojo at Tsukuba University did not have the intense militaristic/sophomoric feel to it.

Too often their are dojos in the real world that are more Japanese than the Japanese.



Originally posted by Robert Rousselot


I suggest you look at a few pre-war photos from around 1920's~1230's of say.....Kenwa Mabuni, Motobu Choki, Funakoshi, Hanashiro Chomo yada yada yada an you can plainly see that in many of the photos they are wearing a karate gi that is almost if not the same as modern ones.

Oh, and by the way.......that diaper you were talking about is called a fundoshi in Japanese.

[PRehse]

Actually the first line of my post was directly related to the quote. Just an observation that the history of the Japanese in Okinawa pre-dated the 1920s and 1930s by about 300 years so the appearance of Japanese type Gis is not so strange. To be fair the post you replied to did say before the war.

As to the rest of the post - I was commenting on the thread in general. You were just a convenient starting point and there was no need for further quoting. It is the nature of forums - think on how most conversations with groups of people evolve. I have not yet been to the Kawasaki dojo but from what I've heard and experienced that is typical of most Koryu and neighbourhood gendai dojos for exactly the reasons you stated.

Unfortunately with respect to the Kawasaki dojo I went from the possiblity of two to three times a week for three months this summer to maybe one visit during my stay. Last minute shift to Osaka.


Originally posted by Robert Rousselot
Firstly, Peter I am wondering why your post has a quote from me since your reply is not related to it.


I briefly trained in Mr. Sugino's Katori Shinto school in Kawasaki and it was very interesting to see how his dojo was run. When you entered the dojo you bowed in and paid your respects to everyone, changed clothes, worked out, bowed out, changed back into street clothes and went home. I asked Mr. Sugino about this once and he said this was actually the way dojos were run before the war. He said people have lives outside the dojo and everyone is not always on the same schedule so to have a group bow in or to be angry if someone is late was kind of pointless. Mind you this is one of the few dojos I have seen like this. Most are the "new type".

As for Okinawan dojos..........from what I have gathered from friends that trained in Okinawa and from Okinawans there is not a lot of formal stretching, and not a lot of formal bowing, and not a lot of "ous-ing" either. The impression I got was pretty much the same as Mr. Sugino's dojo, you bow in work your butt off, bow out and then go home. Even though there is not a lot of outwardly over formality to Okinawan dojos there is formality, respect and regimen of a different kind.

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by Robert Rousselot
I am not sure how much of the Okinawan section of E-Budo you have read but there are more than a few folks on here that you are not telling any thing new to, so you might want to take it easy and try to not be so condescending in the future. Mr. Rousselot - I think you may have misinterpreted Mr. Rhese's comments. I reread the entire thread and do not see anything said as condescending.


To everyone in general - Let's keep personal comments out of the discourse. They are of no value. Try to read comments without emotion or defensiveness. If you must make things personal please do so in e-mail or PMs.

Thanks

[Doug Daulton]

A couple of general comments for consideration re: the Culture and Traditions forums.

1) For those who have not had the opportunity to actually live and train in Japan or Okinawa for any significant length of time ... keep in mind that our time in training may make us relative "experts" on the techniques of karate, but that does not make us experts on Japanese/Okinawan customs and traditions. No amount of reading and dining at sushi restaurants equals living, working and training in Japan.

I was fortunate enough to spend 6 weeks in Japan in 1999. The experience was an eye-opener. It showed me exactly how little I knew ... and how much of what I thought I knew was wrong. I came home with a much greater respect for the culture(s) in some respects and a much less romanticized view of Japan/Okinawa in other respects.


2) For those who now live/train in or have lived/trained in Japan/Okinawa for an extended period(s). Please be patient with those who have not. I realize you get asked a lot of silly questions and answering them can be tedious. I am not suggesting that you owe everyone answers. To the contrary, I think "Come to Japan and find out for yourself!" is a perfectly appropriate answer.


These are just a few thoughts on what may cause some of the friction that seems to crop up in these forums from time to time. Thanks for reading and considering them.

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by Robert Rousselot
I wasn't being defensive it's just if one were to read most of the previous posts this would have been a painfully obvious statement that need not be introduced at such a late date. Mr. Rousselot,
Thanks very much for the clarification. It was most helpful.

[PRehse]

Dear All;

No intent to be condecending. I just thought it was a good place to insert a line that the history of Okinawa in Japan preceeded WWII before commenting on some other aspects of the thread. Occaissional reminders never hurt its not like I went off into lecture mode.

I have lived and worked in Japan for five and a half years but only one of those did I do Okinawan Karate. I did spend two wonderful weeks in Okinawa unrelated to the Martial Arts eating pig parts and being exposed to the culture. My hosts were very concerned that I appreciate the differences from the Japanese and I did. By the way I am convinced that the Okinawan Karate that I did was not completely traditional - the tuition was mostly private - having seen some other manifistations.

I concur with Doug. What got me interested in the thread was not so much Okinawa but perceptions of what training in Japan is like and how often that differs from what people think its like. I've been lectured to since I returned to N. America on how the Japanese behave, even though they knew my history, and although harmless it was often completely off base.

[yamatodamashii]

Ummm. no.

There are SIX judan currently living on Okinawa; Kise Fusei has judan in four separate styles of karate. If you can name someone with more than four judan, please let me know. I met four of the six judan while I was on Okinawa, and the other three were all very impressed that I had studied under Kise sensei.

I personally liked his style of karate less than the Shobayashi system, but he DOES have the rank.

[hakutsuru]

Mr. Rousselot:

I have noticed that in the vast majority of the some hundred or so posts you have made on this forum you have in one form or another made negative comments either about someone’s viewpoint or about someone directly. Don’t you ever have anything positive to say about anyone else? Surely, we all are not ignorant boobs. Many of us may not share them same opinions that you do. Certainly most of us have never lived in either Okinawa or on mainland Japan. That does not negate our views. Surely, someone like me can have an opinion on Asian culture even though I have never lived there. Certainly, I can have an understanding of karate even though I have never trained there and none of my teachers has been Okinawan or Japanese.

Certainly there are many who train with Fusei Kise. They can’t all be wrong. Mr. Kise must offer something. Though I think in is incorrect that he has four judan, he is nonetheless a high-ranking member of the karate community. He also does have 50+ years in karate. Takaya Yabiku is in fact a cab driver. So what? Don’t you have a job outside of karate? Or are cab drivers beneath you in some way? Where did you get the idea that he sells rank? Is that some of the dirt you spoke of? “Hey man, listen I got some dirt on the masters.” Grow up. I stopped spreading rumors and gossiping when I hit puberty. So, you heard some negative things some masters. Who the hell really cares what you heard.

I certainly welcome correction when I am incorrect as I am sure most people are on this forum. However, you seem less interested in offering appropriate criticism then you seem to wish simply to show off. I find your demeanor on this forum offensive and rude. One of the rules of this forum is to treat other members with respect. I don't believe you have shown respect to the members of this community.

Thomas B. Lane, Jr.

[yamatodamashii]

Mr. Rousselot--

I was repeating the information I have been provided. I was not there to do historical research, but I WAS there for three and a half years (oh, sorry, I'd have to be there five to impress you). His website now states two judan (shorin ryu and shorinji ryu) and one kudan (Okinawa kenpo). I would be grateful for any corrections to this information you could provide, but do you really have to be snotty about it?

To be honest, nobody had much nice to say about him personally ("troublemaker", I believe was the term), but they respected his budo. I also agree that he is a belt mill--I got my first rank promotion as soon as I stepped into his dojo for my second class, without testing.

By the way, since when have "years of life" translated into martial arts rank?
_____________________________________________
As for meeting six judan; I did not, nor did I claim to, if you reread what I said. It was the general consensus of the Okinawan budoka that I had regular contact with (and they were not historians either) that there were six judan currently living on Okinawa. I trained under both Shimabukuro Eizo and Kise Fusei; I also met Takashi Kinjo and was introduced to another Shimabukuro judan whose name I cannot remember at a dinner (I recall his dojo being very close to Cp Foster on Hwy 330).

[Doug Daulton]

Folks,

A general note re: Mr. Rousselot. If you read through this forum, you will see several instances where I have asked Mr. Rousselot and others to stop sniping at one another. I offer this so you understand the following comments are not sycophancy.

First, like everyone in E-budo, Mr. Rousselot is entitled to his opinion. This is an open forum and I will not curtail the conversation by anyone unless it one of the following ...

a. Significantly off-thread

b. Personally attacking, threatening or otherwise abusive.

Aside from that, everyone is entitled, even encouraged, to share their point of view and defend it. On occasion, that may mean vigorously challenging the assumptions and experiences of others. That is what makes E-budo a place of dialogue ... not diatribe.

So, if your point of view is challenged ... don't knee-jerk into saying something you'll later regret and/or feel the need to apologize for. Consider the source and ask clarifying questions. In this way. we all benefit.

Now ... on to some specific points by Mr. Rousselot.


Originally posted by Robert Rousselot
I am sure we all think our teacher is the best or greatest, I have no problem with that, I think we should keep it to ourselves though. I could not agree more strongly with this. I consider myself very fortunate to have the teachers I do. I have been blessed. However, I do not think it is appropriate to run a "my teacher is the greatest" campaign.

It is one thing to share facts about one's teacher if asked to do so or if you need to attribute a quote or anecdote to them. Anything else is the budo equivalent of "My dad can beat up your dad." It is embarrassing and awkward for everyone involved.

Our teachers deserve our respect and perhaps our love/devotion. However, if they have the "goods" they should not need our grass roots publicity campaigns. The proof is, as they say, in the pudding.


Originally posted by Robert Rousselot
Have I ever stated anything on here that I didn't offer something to back it up like a fact or actually experience? NO. The answer to this question is "no". At least not that I've seen. And while Mr. Rousselot and I differ greatly in style, I do appreciate his honesty and integrity. He generally doesn't open his mouth unless he has his supporting facts straight.

Regards to all,

[yamatodamashii]

As I've now recieved several private messages from people who read this thread and then went to my website (actually set up in reference to my Askme.com account), let me set the record straight:

I am not trying to present myself as a "karate master", nor an authority on Ryukyuan martial arts.

I saw this thread in a "recent post" search; reading, I noticed a lot of converation about traditions, but nothing really about "this is what you can expect *here*". So, having trained in Okinawa (I was stationed there from 1996-2000), I made a post on my experience.

I DO consider myself (in reference to the "self-aggrandizing claims" of my webpage) an expert in martial arts in general, and Japanese systems in particular--because I know more about it than at least 90% of the population. I do not consider myself an *authority*, as I am not someone to whom other experts often (or ever) refer. Nor am I either a "master" of anything (not even a yudansha yet; I move too much), nor an expert on Okinawan systems (I don't even really LIKE karate; I just trained because I was there).

By the way, the instructor whose name I could not recall was Shimabukuro Zenpo. Hope this clears the air.

[Doug Daulton]

Folks,

Just a point of clarification about my previous thread.

My comments were not directed at anyone in particular nor were they a specific defense of Mr. Rousselot. He is quite capable of coming to his own defense.

Rather, they were another attempt to address the seemingly contentious tone this thread has taken on. As Mr. Rousselot and his strong comments have taken a bit of a beating of late, I choose to use him as example.

Like anyone, his opinions are valid, particularly when backed with specific citations of fact/experience. If you do not like someone's tone you can, as Mr. Rousselot suggests, elect not to read his posts.

Dialogue .. not diatribe. That is our goal.

Thanks,