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Maverick
4th February 2001, 05:48
You're in a right front stance. Your right hand is extended in a spear hand and your left hand is palm down under the right arms elbow.

One BB I talked to insists that the left hand is blocking, blocking what I don't know.

I think it's a setup for a throw.

Jari Virta
4th February 2001, 06:39
Originally posted by Maverick
You're in a right front stance. Your right hand is extended in a spear hand and your left hand is palm down under the right arms elbow.

One BB I talked to insists that the left hand is blocking, blocking what I don't know.

I think it's a setup for a throw.

It might be used as such. The left hand may be trapping extended arms that may have grabbed your garment already, right hand may be striking on his throat, then do whichever throw you prefer (or which comes next in the kata?) if you like. I'm sure there are other uses too. This came to mind because of my trapping experiences in Filipino arts.

Sochin
4th February 2001, 17:51
When you take the formalities out of it, it's not a bad move.

The block happens as you move forward into him and pushes down whatever hand is in front of you going in, great access to the throat, although a throat grab while driving him backward seems more natural to me than just a finger stab.

Maverick
5th February 2001, 00:04
Thanks guys those are good uses. I can see the spear hand to the throat cavity.
What was giving me problems was that in Do San kata (I do TKD) this posture is used for an obvious hip throw. In Yul-Gok the posture is preceeded by twin knife hand blocks from a back-stance. After working with this today I've come up with this, the twin knife hands catch the right arm at the elbow and wrist, it then moves into the spear hand posture which would fold the opponents arm back. I'm not done with this section of the kata yet but I think I'm onto something.

It's really very cool how each move can contain several different types of techniques.

PS The reason a TKD guy is here is because I've recently started Isshinryu.

Also forgive me for mixing terminology from karate, TKD and Tai Chi.

Hank Irwin
16th February 2001, 04:32
Pinan Shodan. Opponent throws LEFT punch, sabaki clockwise to left, you left hand palm block(subido: grab/twist, sabaki back counterclockwise to left, right nukite glances top of opponents left elbow joint, kyushu! Remember, when you palm block and grab you "pull" opponents attacking arm in and past your own body,(makes elbow ready) same as other side except nukite strikes with right thumb at opponents lower bicep were the tendons and muscle and elbow come together above elbow. Then you slip your left arm under opponents armpit to top of his/her shoulder,put right top of hand in palm of left, tuite lock on arm and shoulder. Put pressure at hands in downward fashion. Ouch, snap!

Hank Irwin
16th February 2001, 18:42
excuse me, kyusho jitsu, meridian strike,elbow break, joint lock whatever! You a English teacher or sum'fin Mr. Rousselot? You seem to enjoy correcting people. I guess that is ok if you think it makes you feel good. Otherwise why don't you eloborate on technique not bad english.

kusanku
16th February 2001, 23:36
Or, to be exact and precise:D, what we see is that prior to excuting weird manuever of nukite over shotei osae uke (extracting hand over palm heel press receiving), or spear hand over pressing palm block as it is known in America:

Prior to this, I say, we were executing the third of what is known as shuto-uke( literally hand sword receiving) techniques, in Okinawan kenpo (Rope in the offing fist method) done in seisan dachi(thirteen stance, named after the kata of same name),
and in neko ashi dachi( cat's foot stance) in Shorin ryu Matsubayashi,
which have multiple applications and which can also defend against multiple attacks.

Indeed it can be truly said that the shuto uke contains an entire martial art all in itself.

Thus we see, that to understand exactly what sort of things we could be doing,and Mr. Irwin certainly has one possibillity nailed as can be seen,grammar and Gramper:-) notwithstanding,it would be necessary to explain, in context of a particular cersion of the kata, exactly what attack we were defending against, and if we were doing an oyo(followup) to a previous maneuver, in order to interpret precisely the meaning of the maneuver in question.

In short, the spear hand pressing palm maneuver as done in a zenkutsu dachi, Shorin has a different app than one done in Zenkutsu Shotokan(wider stance, knife hands come way down from way up, and you turn into a kokutsu dachi after the spear hand press palm which anyway slides up all the way into the armpit, or used to in Shotokan)

plus in Shorin the palm is pulled back and around into left chamber as the nukite strikes and before turning into a ninety degree cat stance),

and seisan dachi Okinawan Kenpo(different stance, , palm is under elbow, then you turn into forty five degree seisan stance with shuto uke, cross and check and strike app is possible for shuto here)


So, which kata in which style are we doing, to find an app for which attack, and as a single motion or as part of a series?It changes as the circumstances change, which is why one translation of karate, is Ku Ti, 'Vastness of Hand."

I can give you apps for anything, but these things are more complex and fluid than they might at first so seem.

For use in a real situation, they kind of have to be.

In the Matsubayashi ryu technique, for instance, there is an impied front snapkick(imlied by the neko ashi dachi) in the middle of each of the shuto uke, right after the rollback which the other shuto do not have shown,and right before the trap or strike with rear hand and the finishing strike with the front hand.

Then the palm press may become a neck manipulation into a break, and the turn is a throw to lose the opponent.

Or could be ,a palm strike to LI 10 o the opponent's left arm, then a pull in arm bar, then turn and strike opponent in rear of neck(at GB20 with slanted shuto) as you take him around into the Whirling Fan O' Doom(tm).

In Shotokan version, it could be an elbow lock and spin into similar fan o' doom,with palm instead of fingertip strike.

In Kenpo,it could be a nerve burn to a trapped arm at inner elbow crease, Chuze point or whatever that's called, taking opponent to his knees.then you turn dropping him to floor and finish with shuto to neck.

For instance.

I would ask people who are critical to please post alternate applications. Its easy to criticize, not so easy to contribute something actually conducive to learning.

If one wishes people to recognize their knowledge or skill( don't care, myself:-), one should demonstrate that they have some.

Mr. Irwin is correct that this is not English 101,this is a thread on the applications possible for a particular kata maneuver.Mr. Irwin has posted an app, so have I, so may others.

If someone has such knowledge,and is a martial artist of such proportions, as to dwarf the rest of us, they should prove this by posting applications making the rest of us look totally ignorant, nay, completely silly, in comparison.

If they feel these too dangerous or too secret or too powerful to post, they should lurk in silence and laugh at the foolishness of such mortal exponents of the partial arts as we;no doubt many such, do.

Otherwise, if criticism is one's goal, one should come on here, after carefully reading other's posts, for technical content, and really show us what is what, who only know nothing or less than nothing.

For myself, I know only a little.I am sure that Mr. Irwin also knows a little.Others on here do, too.

If anyone really knows a lot, they shoud share some morsels with we feeble ones, we mere deshi,who only, as I say, know , a little.

regards to all,
Kusanku

Hank Irwin
17th February 2001, 02:42
no jitsu: techniques of
no jutsu: art/way of
atemi: striking
waza: points/techinique
Robsan, share a little knowledge please, we don't teach students to ridicule other deshi's grammer, or do we? We can ALL learn from each other. Johnsan's experience is vast to say the least, Joesan, and Lindseysan also, and so many more. Please join in the same manner of giving to each other. We can only learn so much from each other on this forum. But when we meet, we have the opportunity to first hand express ourselves. Will it be for confrontation or dialog? You can go anywhere, ANYWHERE and fight if you look for it. Where can you go and find what we here are trying to create? We live in a great time to say the least Robertsan, many are willing to share where this once was kinjiru. We should take advantage of the opportunity.

heiwa, watashi no oni'isan

Maverick
17th February 2001, 02:42
kusanku, the version I was thinking of is in the TKD hyung Yul-Guk.
I hate to ask a TKD question here, but so far this is the best chance of getting an answer.

gmanry
17th February 2001, 05:52
In the version of Pinan Sandan practiced in my dojo the gedan shotei uke and nukite are followed by the typical backward 180 maneuver. However, as you pull your left foot up, the knees are bent and the body squats to brush the floor with the fingertips (vertical spine). The left foot passes through to kiba or shiko dachi and tetsui is applied in either a swinging or pressing manner depending on the application.

One interpretation of this is a defense against an opponents left knee strike to the midsection. The block will be more gouging than a simple shotei (also with some sabaki if you are smart). The nukite can be used to disbalance, attack organs, etc. This sets the opponent up for skui nage (scooping throw) in that you hook the right hand under the left knee of the opponent and turn taikyoku style (big turn and body shift) past his or her outside shoulder. If you block off the opponents leg with your right leg and use the right tetsui to control the opponents shoulder, head, neck, ear, hair, etc., a really nasty throw occurs. The worst case scenario is, aside from removing an ear or breaking/wrenching the neck or throat, a disclocated hip, a dislocated shoulder, and a fractured skull. Not bad for a Pinan kata designed for shoolchildren.

Of course, this is my interpretation of this movement. It is, in my opinion a really nice evasion and counter to someone who overuses power and is convinced they have you right where they want you.

Sorry for the long post, describing kata is impossible, so I am sorry if this makes no sense. I feel there is a lot of misunderstanding of the potential of this kata. I know a lot of people who avoid it like the plague.

Best of luck,
Glenn R. Manry

Hank Irwin
18th February 2001, 00:08
Spear thrust is same as in Pinan Shodan. The difference you will see is just separating bunkai for the sake of the individual kata themselves. KusanKu contains all of the techniques in the Pinans because that is where the Pinans come from. One difference in spear thrust from Pinan Sandan and Pinan Shodan is arm break before spear thrust in Pinan Sandan where you have palm block/grab in Pinan Shodan.In Pinan Sandan, after arm break you push arm away and step through to deliver spearthrust OR after break you push over and under armpit to top of shoulder, step back and around with back leg as you deliver thrust to side of neck or shuto-thrust to back of neck. This same palm strike/block/grab is also used against a Bo thrust or Jo thrust. Against any thrust type attack against you. What makes the difference is the timing changes involved in executing technique and your "change-body" principles. These are not basic principles though.

gmanry
18th February 2001, 04:47
Hmm, your pinan shodan is our nidan, obviously reflecting the switch which some instructors instituted along the way.

I suspect that the way in which I perform the pinans is somewhat different from the way you perform them. So, I am not sure we can really properly discuss the differences in pinan nidan and sandan without a lot of description.

I am not sure what you mean by "arm break," although I have no doubt one can be obtained from the movement. Are you talking about the wrist escape maneuver found in a lot of sandan kata (ours does not produce this unless it is like an Aikido tenkan waza)? Or are you talking about an actual arm breaking maneuver (breaking the bone)? I can see the attacks to the upper and under side of the elbow, bicep and tricep (depending on angle and circumstances). So obviously damaging the arm is an important bonus.

Our sandan has morote uke prior to the nukite and shotei uke. Our nidan (your shodan) has mawashi shuto uke prior to the nukite and shotei uke. We do not excecute the straight line shuto uke in that kata, but rather the circular shuto uke, similar to Kyokushin and Seido styles (given for reference only).

I can visualize the shoulder trapping maneuver you described (at least I think I can, maybe I am full of cr@p). If I am seeing it in my head correctly, that hold is actually one of the waza that we produce out of the gedan/chudan uke of the second line of motion in sandan.
I will have to try it on the third line.

Full streaming video, that is what we need and fully telepathic interfaces. Or we could actually go outside and practice, there's an idea...

Glenn R. Manry

Hank Irwin
19th February 2001, 12:39
Your're not kidding Glennsan! Some streaming clips would be excellant, I sometimes think I am being TOO discriptive trying to discribe technique here, some technique is almost impossible to do and would be foolish for me to try. I am not sure we are doing opposite kata, The shodan Pinan we do is from what I am told THE 1st Pinan. I know the Japanese changed the order for them because shodan is a harder kata to learn than the nedan Pinan. That one particular thing though has puzzled me for years. If you look at nedan compared to shodan, shodan has much more technique in it, and is definetly harder to perform. The Pinans are SO full of technique. The arm break I was referring to is as you turn to face center before intro to spear is neko-dachi with heel on floor, closed fist kamae like "boxer" type stance. When moving to this stance you "snap" the fists to the body(elbows trap) hitting the opponents wrist on inside and elbow on outside. Bones are extremelly hard to actually break, this break/dislocation is at the elbow and wrist. I may try to put some video on my site to maybe transfer here. I'll have to ask Johnsan about how to go about doing it. Oh man look at that, attach file!! Yahooo! Johnsan! Here we go!

gmanry
19th February 2001, 14:26
I suspected you meant the morote uke in Sandan. We do it from zenkutsu dachi, but I am familiar with it from the shorter kokutsu dachi as well.

We typically use this movement as a throw or clearing movement or a big interception to overwhelm the opponent. Of course, our forward stance lends itself to such an interpretation. I will have to play more with the Kokutsu application.

In your previous post, you seemed to be saying that following the shotei uke and nukite you hood under or over the trapped arm and use the turn to pull them around into a shuto strike. Am I under standing that correctly? I will have to try this. I can see how this would work with either a left or right sided attack.

I agree that shodan has a lot of technique in it. I will be coming around on my rotation to shodan and nidan soon, so I will have to take another look at them.

I feel that sandan is a kata that many people avoid and do not spend enough time learning. The scissor blocks on the first and second line are typically written off by a lot of people. I did this myself for awhile early on. Then I got mad. I told myself that certainly there is something there. Nobody would spend years practicing them for no reason. I found some things :-). Now it is a kata where applications seem to leap out at me.

Take care.

Glenn R. Manry

Hank Irwin
20th February 2001, 00:34
Yes Glennsan, you understand correctly. It will pull your opponent down to ground if you go to low zenkutsu dachi. From there, many Ti knots you can perform. Hahaha! Also allows the chance to execute nasty hip toss too. I have had same observation concerning Pinan Sandan. I haven't met too many that actually know the bunkai for this kata. What I have seen is mostly from Ryukyu Kempo from Oyata Sensei. Still pretty mean stuff. Actually anything Oyata Sensei does is horrific to say the least. I don't teach Sandan until chudan. I find Sandan a kata you have to "commit" to, to get it right. Don't be fooled, there is much good technique in Sandan Pinan. The double "blocks" are almost identical to Naihanchi in application. Hmmm interesting no? Many think the Pinans were developed strictly for elementary schools kids. This is not so. Pinans were "structured" for the Japanese. The Japanese did not originally accept Okinawan Karate because it was not "systemized" like all things Japanese as far as they were concerned. ALL bunkai was taken out of the Kata and taught as physical education principles. The Japanese considered Okinawan karate as being nothing until it was made into an "art form" by the Japanese. If the Japanese actually knew how "dangerous" the Pinans really were, they would re-think their ideas about them. But what I am saying is not new to many ears, that's for sure. I noticed we now have a browser so we can download whatever to our posts, that Lindseysan installed. Domo John Sensei! This should be real interesting.

Hank Irwin
20th February 2001, 00:41
Yes Glennsan, you understand correctly. It will pull your opponent down to ground if you go to low zenkutsu dachi. From there, many Ti knots you can perform. Hahaha! Also allows the chance to execute nasty hip toss too. I have had same observation concerning Pinan Sandan. I haven't met too many that actually know the bunkai for this kata. What I have seen is mostly from Ryukyu Kempo from Oyata Sensei. Still pretty mean stuff. Actually anything Oyata Sensei does is horrific to say the least. I don't teach Sandan until chudan. I find Sandan a kata you have to "commit" to, to get it right. Don't be fooled, there is much good technique in Sandan Pinan. The double "blocks" are almost identical to Naihanchi in application. Hmmm interesting no? Many think the Pinans were developed strictly for elementary schools kids. This is not so. Pinans were "structured" for the Japanese. The Japanese did not originally accept Okinawan Karate because it was not "systemized" like all things Japanese as far as they were concerned. ALL bunkai was taken out of the Kata and taught as physical education principles. The Japanese considered Okinawan karate as being nothing until it was made into an "art form" by the Japanese. If the Japanese actually knew how "dangerous" the Pinans really were, they would re-think their ideas about them. But what I am saying is not new to many ears, that's for sure. I noticed we now have a browser so we can download whatever to our posts, that Lindseysan installed. Domo John Sensei! This should be real interesting.

gmanry
20th February 2001, 03:22
No doubt the Pinan kata have great potential. I to think many people underestimate them. Of course, many people underestimate the taikyoku as well. :-) I find the taikyoku to almost be all I need these days. I hope that doesn't sound pompous. I just find that I can usually pair more complex kata down to the principles in Taikyoku. I suppose that is what Funakoshi may have had in mind, but what do I know?

The sensei under whom I formerly studied did not show many bunkai, but showed us rather some fundamental ideas in all the kata. He then encouraged us to go and explore. So, I do not have many formal or set bunkai. However, I am careful about what I accept as being applicable from my explorations.

Our performance is in some ways more Japanese (zenkutsu dachi is used alot). However, everyone including a lot of karateka who see me practice comment that our karate is very "Chinese" looking. We are more circular and use a lot of short kokutsu dachi and neko ashi dachi. I generally take this as a compliment. I think, retaining that feel has allowed me to find a lot of useful applications, because we are not overly stiff and really focus on transitional movement, which is where the timing lies and the ability to be subtle enough to feel your opponent's intention.

What particular ryu or style do you practice? My background is in a Kyokushin (kata based/non competitive offshoot) and a Kokondo off shoot (which is another Kyokushin offshoot). We have an emphasis on Goju and Shotokan style kata with a blended feel from both (if that makes sense). Basically it is just the karate that I practice. I can't really put a name to it anymore. I no longer belong to either organzation, and I am a bit of an orphan at this point.

Well, I look forward to trading ideas with you in the future.

Glenn R. Manry

gmanry
21st February 2001, 00:52
Mr. Rousselot,

Please go away until you can behave in a civil manner. You shame us all.

Glenn R. Manry

gmanry
21st February 2001, 01:27
Do what you wish. It is an e-forum, I cannot make you leave. I did say please.

Glenn R. Manry

Hank Irwin
21st February 2001, 02:30
Robsan, you make some valid points, and for me my Japanese stinks, I know this. The Japanese language isn't natine to Okinawa anyhow. At this point in time I will not take on the task, but you are being a little presumptous. I have never gone out of my way once to insult you or question your intergrity. You have already given me the heave ho' for some statements I made IN error, of which at this point I thought was resolved concerning my mistake. Prof.? Hahaha! I have never met Oyata Sensei, but my Sensei knows him, very well, all the way back to Okinawa, from the old days. I have known about Oyata Sensei since the early 70's and have been doing his system also for that long, by way of my Sensei, Roy Osborne. I do NOT do take-my-dough karatee! I don't personally know who you are Mr. Rousselot, but that doesn't matter to me. You may be a student of Oyata Sensei, that doesn't matter to me either. I live Karate-Do everyday. I live everyday with death's wings flapping on my brow... Rei

gmanry
21st February 2001, 03:12
Mr. Rousselot,

Not once have I even participated in the ongoing exchange you have had with Mr. Irwin. Yet you accuse me of refuting your statements. This is simply not true. I have made no comment on your statements. I have commented on your attitude, and I am still correct on this matter.

Your attitude is base, your approach childish. You add nothing to this forum, because your tone prevents people from hearing you. For someone who is bilingual, you completely lack any understanding of the principles of communication.

I feel for your students, if this is your method of correction in the dojo. If it is not, then apparently you feel safe being so abusive at a distance behind a keyboard. I rarely, if ever, find myself saying such things to people, but you are a coward and a braggart.

Do you treat your sensei this way when he makes an error concerning his English?

It is up to you. You can correct your attitude or continue to find yourself in conflict with many people on this board. You have ruined this thread, and I believe, from what I have read, many others.

I don't know Mr. Irwin personally, and I don't know you personally, but each of your writings speaks volumes on each of your characters, Mr. Irwin's mistakes and all.

You are a Niponophile of the worst kind. Now I know what my Japanese friends mean when they talk about people like you - baka is usually what they say. I don't speak Japanese, perhaps you could translate?

Glenn R. Manry

gmanry
21st February 2001, 04:31
Any time.

Glenn R. Manry

Hank Irwin
21st February 2001, 04:52
I feel the need to apologize to my Budo family here for allowing this to take place. Unfortunately we have had the pleasure of have Master Rousselot point out my misgivings. For this I am deeply sorry. I am also sorry for my blatant disregard for the "everchanging" Nihonese( did I get that right Bobby?) From now on I will stay strictly with English(oh MY GOD!!!) or the dialect of Uchina, Hogen. I hope I have not offended anyone. Where were we in this thread anyhow?! Pinans, right? I was looking at some video of Kise Sensei doing Kusanku when he and O'Sensei Soken were here in early 70's. I was wondering, anyone have wrist/twist, hammerfist, punch, turn, double fist posture..(feet together;open toe,fists pull to waist,(hmmm. what technique lies here I wonder)then elbow/scoop blocks) like Glensan and I do in 3rd Pinan? This was how I was originally taught in Shorinji before I learned the Ryukan Kempo applications(oops! almost said bunkai...teeheehee!!!) Back to Robsan: Which Sandan under Oyata Sensei are you reffering to that was/is your student?How long have you/did train with Oyayta Sensei? How long have you been in Nihon? How old are you? What is your rank? How old were you when you first started taking Tode and who were your Sensei? Are you planning on being at Oyata Sensei's camp this summer?...... I wil.

kusanku
21st February 2001, 08:05
Gentlemen:'Hank, Glenn, and Robert-

I am sorry I won't be there, too, that would be fun, sounds like.:-)

Robert- you know I didn't steal any techniques,I got 'em the legitimate way thru my teacher.

Also I believe Mr. Irwin did as well.

I note you correct me in an earlier post, that the waza I mention is an atemi area strike.

In the context of Taika Oyata's unique and particular terminology you are correct, as he uses the term atemi jutsu ( often and no doubt incorrectly spelled jitsu in America by us non-Japanese speakers.) to mean 'warning strikes 'to the limbs.

You then with your Kenkyusha tell us that atemi means Body striking, which in fact it does.Taika's usages are as I said, unique, he coined them himself, kyusho-jutsu,tuite and atemi-jutsu, and anyome claiming to know these particular arts from other sources, is wrong.

But you have now contradicted your correction of me.

This is not consistent.Atemi waza is either a limb strike or a body strike, inluding limbs..Yes, in Taika Oyata's parlance, it is a warning strike to the limbs, in most other styles, it is a kyusho strike, all of which are called atemi strikes..Now, the reason I used the word kyusho, is because of how that word is used in karate in Japan, as Funakoshi used it in Karate-do Kyohan, Jintai Kyusho, Vital Points of the Human Body.He gives forty-four, including arm and leg points, as kyusho.I understand the chart actually was given him by Hironori Ohtsuka of Jiujutsu.Therefore, my statement of that waza being a kyusho srike, in the context of the karate world at large, was correct. I have learned to use concepts by their more widely understood terms outside of a given style, even mine.

In other Okinawan and some Japanese arts these would be referred to as Toide or Toidi and Atemiwaza, in Japan Torite and Atemiwaza.Each type done somewhat differently but as you mention, based on TMC principles, making them somewhat related, at that.

Mr. Irwin and his teacher obviously got theirs from Taika, I got mine from my teacher who was under Taika,and Odo before him,and Nakmura and Shimabukuro Zenryu before them, on Okinawa,and some other stuff from the Nagamine lineage,through his American son-in-law and my teachers,(different theory, my teacher said when I did some for him, but he narrowed his eyes , meaning he thought it might be effective-it is), and a few other places.Judo, Aikido, Shotokai-Shotokan, Kuontao, Chin Na, Jiujutsu.

Here and there.I have been in martial arts for thirty-seven years, since 1964.

En Passant, Sir, I might mention that I have yet to see you post even one technique on these forums, but you certainly criticize those of us who do, even if our technique is correct, you go after our language or speech patterns.

Well, whatever floats your Boat, Ace!:D

Meanwhile, you didn't answer any of Mr. Irwin's questions, and I believe that in fact, as was I, you are a student of a student of Taika Oyata, or so Mr. McCarthy said on here a while back.

Or perhaps this is incorrect?

In the spirit of friendly suggestion, why don't you share some of your no doubt vast expertise with the rest of us on the forums?

It would play better, I guarantee, than a steady diet of sarcasm and criticism, unless you enjoy being one of the e-budo Bad Boys?-)

Don't care for it myself, was one of the official Bad Guys on another forum once, but there, I was charged with booting cyber-idiots who would occasionally attack the Gates.

There was an entire group of us who maintained the Gates of Hell, as we called it. Good system, worked well.Lot of work though.

What I mean- what have you got to contribute, other than grammatical corrections and pathological putdowns?

Regards, Kusanku, a.k.a.

Various other names( was quite infamous on the other forum,I was, under several names:-)

gmanry
21st February 2001, 14:01
Mr. Rousselot,

Although I still feel your attitude in your posts was lacking. I wish to offer an apology for the opinions I expressed concerning your character.

To all of you on this forum, I promise to not allow my anger to affect our discussions in the future.

"Let it be said that truth without compassion=hostility." To put forth a correction is laudable, however, tone is everything, and all of us need to remember that.

People will not grasp our words if we do not express them in a civil voice.

This type of outburst is not typical for me at all. I do apologize, sincerely, because it accomplishes nothing, and probably is not true in the first place.

I disagree with you on some points, and perhaps in the future we can discuss these things.

Back to Sandan, Mr. Irwin talks about, it sounds like, assuming musubi dachi with both fists chambered to one side just prior to the nukite and block combination. Actually, we do not have this. Rather we execute morote uke in zenkutsu dachi then move to another zenkutsu (which can be shorter) in a way that allows our hands to sort of "fall" into the technique. No chamber or retraction of hands. Many different possibilities occur as you change the footwork from one zenkutsu dachi to the next.

As I said previously, we concentrate a lot on these transitional spaces and recognize there are many possibilities which fit in to these spaces. Soon, I will have a webpage up, and I plan on having a page with kata in mpeg format. It will most likely be password protected from the general public.

Sincerely,
Glenn R. Manry

Doug Daulton
21st February 2001, 14:16
Messrs. Rousselot, Irwin, Vengel and Manry,

Gentleman, it would appear that everyone has taken a deep breath and elected to turn off their flame-throwers. As your E-Budo "lifeguard" I am glad ... I was getting ready to clear the pool.

The internet in general, and e-forums in particular, are imperfect communications tools at best. In the future, I suggest everyone reread (several times) what appear to be offending posts .. prior to responding.

Often the tone of a post one reads is not the tone intended by the author. As readers, we do not have the benefit of non-verbal cues (grin, voice inflection, etc.) to determine if the author was joking, dissembling or insulting us.

When one is unsure of an author's intention ... ask, don't assume. I'll never shut down an intelligent, respectful discourse where the parties involved asked clarifying questions of one another ... even if it is a shade heated. However, I will shut down flame wars ... which this came close to being.

I trust I've made myself clear. Thanks for your attention to this matter.

Respectfully,

Doug Daulton
Moderator
Okinawan Martial Arts Forums

gmanry
21st February 2001, 14:25
Mr. Daulton,

You are quite clear. Again, my apologies to one and all.

Glenn R. Manry

kusanku
22nd February 2001, 02:52
Mr. Rousselot says:'You have a point.'

Dead silence ensues,followed by , applause.

Well, good for you.

Then goes on to bring up point of posting dangerous techniques on internet.

That, is also, a good point.I will mention this, what I post usually requires knowledge of and skill in certain styles and katas, and usually it has to be shodan or even well over, to actually be used effectively.

The technique in point, an atemi area strike to the arm from Pinan Nidan, is both not terribly dangerous in itself and requires the sharp striking power , angle and direction not taught from a book or even a video, as well as knowledge of the exact kata,and as you say the feel, the most necessary part, to become effective.

That someone of your skill level or Mr. Irwin's, or Mr. Daulton's, or several other posters on this group, who already have the necessary power, speed, strikng ability and form, as well as technique, to render them dangerous members of society if they were not morally sound,could glean from my posts methods making them somewhat more effective,if they don't already know as well or better, is undeniable.

But a wacko lurking and reading or posting on the list, is unlikely to possess the necessary skills or knowledge to make any of the stuff I post anywhere, effective-if they do, they are already dangerous.

Especially since I leave out what is known to all dan ranks, the basics.

That's where an arts real secrets lie, in good foundation skills only available through a qualified instructor.

I had to laugh when some tried to swipe Ryukyu Kempo waza and kata, who had never been through our basic training.:-)Can't move right, step right, hit right, block right, and so can't do our kata right, ad can't apply 'em right.:-)

Seen their videos? Seisan had me rolling in the aisles!

Of course , they tried to learn off Taika's videos, even though those videos leave some things,, a lot of things, out, and even in some places say the footwork will be different for a real performance, etc.

Plus speak of the necessity for atemi, sharp striking power.But do not go into developing it.

Like Nagamine's book on atsubayash ryu that shows beginnng and ending moves in kata postures, but not the middle, and shows basics and not the drills to develop the power to make them effective.

Among other things.
I am a little more careful than may at first seem evident.Since you brought this point up however, and it is a good one,I thought I would discuss it a bit.

Generally I place what knowledge I post publicly in context of a style, an art or karate in general.Then most often it is in context of specific kata, postures and stances/techniques needed to make any of that work, and I only casually refer to the needed abilities of striking power, and usually not at all to the system of delivery of that,save the very simple ones, or the drills necessary to acquire it.

The drill I have posted has to do with evasion and blocking, defense moves, and can be learned easily by anyone.

But the drill that goes with it and has sixty four attacks to go with those, will not be posted.

Most of the one shot take outs I do not post, and those I have, are in kata people have to spend years mastering.

Tuite/torite maneuvers as you say, have to be felt, and I post only such elementary ones as above on this thread.

Basically, I agree with you that many things are too dangerous to be shared publicly.

What I have done, and for no gain for myself, is share certain principles that will enable the serious student to learn some things from an art he/she already is expert at.None of this stuff would do most kyu ranks that much good, though it will provide food for thought.

Giving some less than lethal or difficut bunkai or applications, actual or possible, in some kata, is an excercise in potential, opening up thinking about what is or could be in one's ancient forms.

I once was really flamed on a Forum where I refused to share a list of some techniques which were either lethal, too easily done by untrained people, or possibly conducive to permanent serious injury.

Nevertheless I persist to this day in not sharing those techniques except with dan ranked people of my own acquaintance and of known good character, and not even with some of them.

I have personally shared such with only about three people on the planet.

One is my cousin and senior student.
Other two are Sixth and Seventh Dan, respectively.

Some may ask why I am a 'ronin' these days.The reason is simple:Of the martial arts, and the fundamental principles and secrets thereof, I possess all I need, and will ever need, indeed, more than I will ever need, to know, including how to train those things if I so wish, to whatever level may be necessary.This has been so since 1993.Not that I know all, but enough for my needs..

I am no longer associated with any art, style or association precisely because I have no wish to be put in a situation where I ever might have to hurt anyone.
Or get hurt, unnecessarily.

But I do wish and have done this, to pass on certain parts, general parts, of that knowledge so that a lot of martial artists do not get ripped off and spend twenty or more years doing what they fondly imagine is karate, and what is really only athletic sport.

I debated the ethics of this, and decided, that many people cripple themselves doing tournament karate, thinking they are learning self defense,and they could be practicing and helping their health and longevity, by doing kata, and while doing kata, learning real self defense techniques in a safe manner.

I therefore posted a number of articles on kata analysis, on several levels, mostly pretty basic,for people in Shotokan and general karate, so they could thus benefit from their karate instead of being crippled thereby.

Actual style specific waza, I have for the most part avoided, and when mentioning any, I have mentioned those usually not the most damaging, albeit very effective. Those damaging waza I have occasionally posted are ones that, really, could be figured out by anyone shodan or over, pretty easily.And you have, as I said, to know and be pretty good at the kata. Usually kata experts are not among society's predators, the effort needed to master even one kata pretty much cuts into one's predatory activities, I would imagine. Most such use knives, guns, bricks, rocks, sticks, etc.,all of which make them as or more effective than a karate trained individual.

Unless we see 'em coming.:-)Then they're toast for sure.:D Right?Right? We can handle them pistoleros, right?:-)

As well, most of the techniques I post are counterroffensive, or defensive, techniques, which after all, can be learned off the Net only to the extent of what expertise one already has.

But thank you for bringing the point up, glad to have the opportunity to discuss it, and also that you made peace with Mr. Irwin, a good guy.
Regards,
John

Doug Daulton
22nd February 2001, 04:07
Originally posted by Robert Rousselot ... One reason is I don’t think technique can be adequately explained over the Internet, I sometimes can’t even explain it well enough when some one is standing in front of me, sometimes you just have to feel it..............and if it could be explained I don’t think it should be. My personal opinion is I think it is rather irresponsible. Kind of like posting how to make a bomb on the Internet. ............you never know what kind of wacko is going to read it and go out and try it and then get himself or someone else hurt. Mr. Rousselot,

I often wrestle with precisely the same set of dilemmas. Technique is not simple to describe in a 1:1 discussion where one can demonstrate ... let alone in the written word without benefit of at least images.

Moreover when describing technique in clear detail in writing, one opens the doors to thugs and novices playing with things which may hurt them or someone else. As a rule, I tend to agree with you that it is irresponsible to provide detailed description of techniques and applications in a public forum. Such detail is better left for personal correspondence.

However, as Mr. Vengel suggests, I think there is some room for sharing information which is dependent on a fundamental understanding of the basics, which the casual reader or wacko lurker is not likely to possess. Ultimately, we are each responsible for whatever we post on any forum ... regardless of the false sense of security Internet "free speech" provides.

Someone wiser than I said "freedom is not free ... the price is eternal vigilance" In this case, we must monitor ourselves as you suggest. Excellent point. Thanks for sharing it.


Take care,

________________
Doug Daulton

Maverick
23rd February 2001, 15:42
What the heck is this "Mr Maverick" stuff? Mike or Maverick are just fine. :)

Hank Irwin
23rd February 2001, 17:44
I have to agree with Vengel Sensei in much he has to say. An un-educated student will fall over just about anything we discuss here. The actual basics are what is necessary to achieve a level of understanding of the simpliest application, which are right in your hojo undo. All the "basic" precepts of your kata are interwoven within the context of your basics workout of class, punching drills, walking drills, blocking and intercepting drills etc. Without these, kata is just a bunch of movement that shows only what can be learned from the surface, not much, and usually wrong assumptions about what is really there. In my studies of Karate-Do and those involved I have found many the individual that admonishes those that would show these fighting principles they classify as too dangerous for the public or say they can fall into the wrong hands. In most cases (please don't personalize this ok guys) they don't know what the true application is themselves. So they shroud it in mystery. Karate techniques are dangerous, ALL of them. The intent of certain individuals that wish to know these principles is what should be at question. Maybe we should have more private discussions if any of you think that certain waza shouldn't be discussed here, just a thought. Many of us already do to some extent. But sharing is part of what this forum is about anyhow. Should we screen people for rank verification so we don't have to be "worried" about who knows what? I don't think so, I know quite a few Seniors I won't show anything to.

walking_sword
6th March 2001, 08:42
Well, grabbing as I know is very effective. When I spar with my friend two days ago, I grabbed him and before I could tighten my grip on him -- he gets away with it with speed about twice or more than twice of mine. Well people, what can you recommend? As I see it now, I'm quite a loss because my muscles are painful this moment. Can you give me some hints without using more and more speed?If not, please give me tips on how to improve speed. Thanks for reading.

gmanry
6th March 2001, 16:59
Walking Sword,

First, it is policy on E-budo to sign the end of your posts with your full name. You can use the signature tool to preconfigure a signature for you.

I am not sure if your post belongs in this thread, perhaps you should start a new thread on your particular topic.

As you are here, I will give you my impressions, whatever they are worth.

Speed is a tricky thing in combat. Often if you move with lot of speed you tend to not move smoothly. This produces a lot of extra movement (up down, left right, etc.) that sets off the motor reflexes in your opponent due to the functions of peripheral vision. We sense motion using the edges of our vision, a wonderful defense mechanism. So, more speed may not be your answer, but rather more relaxed and fluid motion.

This is one of the reasons beginners are taught not to bounce up and down in their kata movements, among many others.

When grabbing your opponent, did you reach out with an arm and grab, leaving a lot of space, or did you move in with your body and allow your hand to contact them, (taking up space, hiding your intention, and causing less jumpy speed). If I reach for you, you can react. If I slide up to you with smooth level motion and then grab you when my hand contacts your body, your chances of reacting are reduced. I am not saying this is fool proof, but you might want to work on it.

Just my opinions and experiences, it has worked for me.

However, I would suggest moving this to a new thread for future discussion. It will decrease confusion.

Glenn R. Manry

Maverick
7th March 2001, 00:32
Did anybody ever explain the technique?

Hank Irwin
7th March 2001, 00:55
Mike Sensei, did you read through the whole thread? It did seem like we got off track a little though. We need to start injecting some photos I think, would clarify things a little better. What do you guy's think? I will down load some tonight or tomorrow so when I explain a technique, the understanding will be a little clearer.

walking_sword
8th March 2001, 09:18
First, Sorry for not signing my name after the post. That goes for everybody too.

Second thing, Thank you very, very much for the things that you told me. I find those things very rare in places like this... the cyberspace. You are the only ones who told me that. My partner last time in that sparring session is our fastest mover in our peer; and he never told me that.

Third thing, If you suggest that my last post will be moved, that's fine with me. Or, maybe I should save your post in my e-mail address and delete my post... because I'm a little out of the topic just as you've said. But don't worry, I expect my post to be a question to answer. For me, a question can be forgotten after it was answered... just like an enemy attack, it is sometimes usual to forget how your opponent does it when you already countered it.

Well, I have not saved your post yet. I will save it days later or maybe weeks later because I use our library's internet station...and it is very expensive to download here. I'll just remember where is your post.

Joseph L. Baptista

_______________
Joseph L. Baptista

Maverick
9th March 2001, 00:24
Just kidding guys. I love the way conversations meander around.

Pictures would be great. I've bought the first couple of books in the "Best Karate" series, which has helped understand the Japanese terminology.

By the way Hank, I prefer to go by Sijo! :P