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Andrew S
31st March 2009, 21:54
I recently began to think about the Funakoshi family and wondered to what extent any of them, aside from Giko, were involved in karate.
I have read that Gichin's eldest son was quite an adept, but had an unfortunate gambling problem. He was also the rallying point for the Shotokai following Gichin's death. What ever became of him and his karate?
Also, did the elder Funakoshi teach his grandchildren?
I would appreciate any help answering these questions.

Gusta in Japan
1st April 2009, 01:30
Ken Funakoshi 9th Dan
http://www.shotokankarate.ca/Shihan%20Funakoshi.htm

Andrew S
1st April 2009, 13:51
He is a relative of Gichin, but never trained under him. In fact, Kenneth Funakoshi learned karate from Nakayama's students.
I was asking specifically about Gichin's direct decendents.

Gusta in Japan
1st April 2009, 23:14
He is a relative of Gichin, but never trained under him. In fact, Kenneth Funakoshi learned karate from Nakayama's students.
I was asking specifically about Gichin's direct decendents.

I would appreciate any help answering these questions.
Thank you for your very condescending reply. You asked about family members who practiced Karate and I was only trying to help. I have more information but I think I don't want to get insulted again.

Prince Loeffler
2nd April 2009, 00:32
Mr. Novak, I searched for the original poster's post, He was nowhere near about being dis-respectful, insulting and condescending to you.

George Kohler
2nd April 2009, 01:44
I agree with Prince.

His first question was "What ever became of him [Gichin's eldest son] and his karate?"

And

"Also, did the elder Funakoshi teach his grandchildren?"

Andrew S
2nd April 2009, 14:20
Thank you for your very condescending reply. You asked about family members who practiced Karate and I was only trying to help. I have more information but I think I don't want to get insulted again.

Upon reflection, my reply was rather curt and could be taken as rude. I neither had nor have any intention to sound condescending, and am sorry that my post gave this impression.

Simon Keegan
3rd April 2009, 10:24
Gigo or Yoshitaka was as influential in the development of Shotokan as anybody. He is credited with popularising the Mawashi Geri, Yoko Geri, Ushiro Mawashi Geri and Kokutsu Dachi.

Like Funakoshi Gichin's other senior students, Gigo trained with other masters and brought back what he had learned.

His deep stances and comparatively flashy kicks were new to Shotokan and perhaps reflects what he may have learned from Chinese or Korean styles.

Shotokan minus Gigo's influence would look like Wado Ryu. Old pictures of Shotokan kata practitioners prior to Gigo show Nekoashi Dachi in place of Kokutsu Dachi and Mae Geri in place of Yoko Geri. In traditional kata there are no Maswashi Geri or Ushiro Mawashi Geri (I know there is a technique in Unsu that resembles Mawashi Geri to a small degree).

In my opinion Gigo took a fairly "upright" boxing art and made it into a more physical demanding, more percussive art that makes greater use of kicks and personal fitness.

Were Gigo's influences a good or bad thing on Shotokan? I guess that depends on one's perspective, but they cannot be underestimated.

As an aside. Does anybody know how exactly Kenneth Funakoshi is related to Gichin? For example was Kenneth's grandmother the cousin of Gichin? He certainly resembles him.

Andrew S
3rd April 2009, 14:32
Simon,
I believe that Kenneth is decended from one of Gichin's cousins.

Yoshitaka/Giko certainly heavily influenced stances and training methods, but some believe that the stances were already being changed by Shimoda, one of the most senior (if not the most senior) of the pre-war students (most likely to have succeeded Gichin if not for his death).

Without wishing to sound rude, I am more interested in Gichin's other sons (particularly the eldest) and grandchildren and to what extent they learned directly from the elder Funakoshi.

Simon Keegan
3rd April 2009, 15:04
No problem, I don't think you are being rude at all.

I think Gigo was really the only one of Funakoshi's sons who showed any flair for Karate. But I seem to remember Funakoshi stating that his teachers Itosu and Azato both taught all of Funakoshi's sons and would spoil them with treats and sweets which he could not afford to give them himself because he was poor.

Giei Funakoshi (Gichin's eldest son) caused some problems between him and Hironori Otsuka.

It seems Otsuka was sensible with his money and saved a retirement fund for himself. When Giei amassed gambling debts he used his status as the eldest son of Otsuka's then-teacher to try to convince Otsuka to use his pension to pay off Giei's debts. Because of a sense of Giri, Otsuka did this and never got the money back and then Giei accused Otsuka of fiddling the club books himself.

Andrew S
4th April 2009, 15:12
No problem, I don't think you are being rude at all.

I think Gigo was really the only one of Funakoshi's sons who showed any flair for Karate. But I seem to remember Funakoshi stating that his teachers Itosu and Azato both taught all of Funakoshi's sons and would spoil them with treats and sweets which he could not afford to give them himself because he was poor.

Giei Funakoshi (Gichin's eldest son) caused some problems between him and Hironori Otsuka.

It seems Otsuka was sensible with his money and saved a retirement fund for himself. When Giei amassed gambling debts he used his status as the eldest son of Otsuka's then-teacher to try to convince Otsuka to use his pension to pay off Giei's debts. Because of a sense of Giri, Otsuka did this and never got the money back and then Giei accused Otsuka of fiddling the club books himself.

Thanks for this. I never knew that Otsuka was one of the injured parties of Giei's gambling. I wonder if this was one of the factors that caused the break between (Gichin) Funakoshi and Otsuka.
I read that Giei did have a certain flair for karate, but not to the same level as Giko.

Interestingly, the Shotokai gave Giei the position of president following Gichin's death. It seems they wanted to at least keep the Funakoshi's involved.

I actually saw a book by the Shotokai on Yoshitaka/Giko in a normal bookshop over here a couple of years ago, and an kind of kicking myself for not getting it.

kensei
30th September 2013, 17:20
Okay, found me something to work on today. Here is the info that I have on Funakoshi and his children.

Funakoshi married Gosei and had six children....

The sons were
Giei (Yoshihide) first born and one of the founding members of the shotokai.
Giyu (Yoshihio) no evidence that he even came to Japan from Okinawa.
Gigo (Yoshitaka) driving force in the JKA.
Geiketsu (yongest son and no evidence he came to Japan from Okinawa).

Daughters
Tsuru
Uto

Some pictures do exist of his daughters and a young man that may be Geiketsu at his memorial. However their may be a simple explanation for his other two boys not being part of Karate. They may have died in the war of Okinawa an never made it to Japan.

I will keep diggin!

Andrew S
30th September 2013, 21:08
Okay, found me something to work on today. Here is the info that I have on Funakoshi and his children.

Funakoshi married Gosei and had six children....

The sons were
Giei (Yoshihide) first born and one of the founding members of the shotokai.
Giyu (Yoshihio) no evidence that he even came to Japan from Okinawa.
Gigo (Yoshitaka) driving force in the JKA.
Geiketsu (yongest son and no evidence he came to Japan from Okinawa).

Daughters
Tsuru
Uto

Some pictures do exist of his daughters and a young man that may be Geiketsu at his memorial. However their may be a simple explanation for his other two boys not being part of Karate. They may have died in the war of Okinawa an never made it to Japan.

I will keep diggin!

Thanks. I assumed that the second son died before Gichin made his permanent trip to the mainland - era of relatively high child mortality and all.
When I started this thread, I was curious as to the karate of the eldest son and whether Gichin taught any of his grandchildren (or if any of them showed any flair for karate).

BTW, I believe it is safer to say that Gigo was the driving force behind Shotokan, rather than behind the JKA - in fact it is the Shotokai who probably have the greater claim to him. That said, his death was a huge loss to what could have been.

kensei
30th September 2013, 21:40
Thanks. I assumed that the second son died before Gichin made his permanent trip to the mainland - era of relatively high child mortality and all.
When I started this thread, I was curious as to the karate of the eldest son and whether Gichin taught any of his grandchildren (or if any of them showed any flair for karate).

BTW, I believe it is safer to say that Gigo was the driving force behind Shotokan, rather than behind the JKA - in fact it is the Shotokai who probably have the greater claim to him. That said, his death was a huge loss to what could have been.

It would be very interesting to see if he has any living relatives now. I know that Gigo passed very youn and no word of any children. Giei passed away young, but older than Gigo and still no word on children. I dont know about the others.

I had seen a picture of a "family gathering" at his grave with ladies identified as Tsuru and Uto as well as Giyu and Geiketsu, but I dont know how accurate that was.

I also agree and have to appologize, as much as Gigo would have influenced the JKA style he was also a driving force in the development of the Shotokai. From what I can see he was very important to the development of both systems of Shotokan training as he taught most of the seniors that went on to develop the JKA as well as influencing the seniors that taught at the universities. Suffice it to say his teachings had impact in both groups, but probably more so in the shotokai section at the time.

Gibukai
1st October 2013, 09:28
Hello,

Among his four sons, Giei, Giyū, Gigō (called Yoshitaka on mainland Japan), and Giketsu only the third son, Yoshitaka, engaged himself in the practice of karate seriously.

The youngest son, Giketsu, apparently died prematurely after his birth. Giei, the oldest son, did not study karate because of bodily limitations. However, he became an administrative figure for the Shōtōkai after the Pacific War. Giyū had character deficits and therefore was not allowed to learn karate.

Regards,

Henning Wittwer

kensei
1st October 2013, 12:31
Hey Henning, Very intereresting read. I knew about Yoshitaka (Gigo) I think we all do because of his involvement in Karate. However I only knew a bit about Giei. the information I read was that Giei did teach Karate with the Shotokai however. I have read this at several online sources yesterday, one of them being an official Shotokai site.

I would be very interested in seeing the sources for your information about his other sons. From what I read here it sort of states that the other sons basically did not learn Karate, one because he had passed away young. Yet Funakoshi himself says that his "Sons" learned Karate from the masters and they were spoiled with candy and sweets.

I guess I am just having issues balancing the common thoughts on them with the information you present. Can you provide sources (not formally just a idea of where you found this out from).

Thank you in advance!

Gibukai
2nd October 2013, 08:25
Hello,

Firstly, you mention, that you read about Giei "teaching karate at the official Shōtōkai site". To be accurate, you read the English version (i. e. a more or less good translation of the Japanese original) of that site. If you refer to the original Japanese version, you will not find a hint, that Giei "did teach karate" (in the sense of being a karate instructor). It simply states, that Giei as the eldest son of Gichin served as the 2nd president of the Shōtōkai and was in great pains in order to succeed his way. This does not mean he was a "karate instructor".

As for my sources, they are Japanese primary and secondary sources. I am using, for example, a biography of Gichin and Yoshitaka, which was written and published by a direct student of Gichin and Yoshitaka when Gichin was still alive. Therein you can find the information about the sons.

Regards,

Henning Wittwer

Andrew S
3rd October 2013, 21:12
I am using, for example, a biography of Gichin and Yoshitaka, which was written and published by a direct student of Gichin and Yoshitaka when Gichin was still alive. Therein you can find the information about the sons.

Can you tell us the title and author of this book?

Kevin73
13th October 2013, 00:51
To me, an interesting historical aside regarding Kenneth Funakoshi. Originally, he was a blackbelt under Sijo Emerado in Kajukenbo while it was still in the Palama district of Hawaii.

Later, Kenneth Funakoshi felt that he should honor his family's lineage and went to train in Shotokan.

kensei
13th October 2013, 01:51
To me, an interesting historical aside regarding Kenneth Funakoshi. Originally, he was a blackbelt under Sijo Emerado in Kajukenbo while it was still in the Palama district of Hawaii.

Later, Kenneth Funakoshi felt that he should honor his family's lineage and went to train in Shotokan.
it is common knowledge that He did not know about his family connection to Shotokan till he started training and his instructor pointed that out to him, it does not match what you have suggested. Can you further explain that.

Kevin73
13th October 2013, 03:12
In an interview with Centrun Negro Magazine (conducted by John Bishop), Sijo Emperado made the following statement.


CN: Are there other people that were originally Kajukenbo black belts?

EMPERADO: Many. The Shotokan stylist Ken Funakoshi was one of the black belts who came out of the Palama school, as was the actor Don Stroud. Funakoshi, who was a descendant of Gichin Funakoski felt that he should follow his heritage and train in Shotokan. I gave him my blessing.


I did misquote and said "lineage" instead of "heritage". But, what I take from this interview it wasn't until later after earning a blackbelt that Kenneth Funakoshi went to Shotokan. I don't know at what point he found out about his family connection to Shotokan, but he was still a student of Kajukenbo and and went to them before making the switch it sounds like.

Kevin73
13th October 2013, 03:32
I tried to edit my message, but it wouldn't let me.

I tracked down an interview with both Sijo Emperado and with Kenneth Funakoshi.

This was taken from an interview that John Bishop conducted with Sijo Emperado in Centron Negro Magazine.

CN: Are there other people that were originally Kajukenbo black belts?

EMPERADO: Many. The Shotokan stylist Ken Funakoshi was one of the black belts who came out of the Palama school, as was the actor Don Stroud. Funakoshi, who was a descendant of Gichin Funakoski felt that he should follow his heritage and train in Shotokan. I gave him my blessing.

In an interview that Kenneth Funakoshi did for "The Shotokan Way", he states that he started training in Kajukenbo in 1956 and then in 1960, he first met Kanazawa Sensei. He states that this was the first exposure that he had to Japanese Karate. It wasn't until after this that Funakoshi would have found out about his family and switched to Shotokan.

kensei
13th October 2013, 14:30
I tried to edit my message, but it wouldn't let me.

I tracked down an interview with both Sijo Emperado and with Kenneth Funakoshi.

This was taken from an interview that John Bishop conducted with Sijo Emperado in Centron Negro Magazine.

CN: Are there other people that were originally Kajukenbo black belts?

EMPERADO: Many. The Shotokan stylist Ken Funakoshi was one of the black belts who came out of the Palama school, as was the actor Don Stroud. Funakoshi, who was a descendant of Gichin Funakoski felt that he should follow his heritage and train in Shotokan. I gave him my blessing.

In an interview that Kenneth Funakoshi did for "The Shotokan Way", he states that he started training in Kajukenbo in 1956 and then in 1960, he first met Kanazawa Sensei. He states that this was the first exposure that he had to Japanese Karate. It wasn't until after this that Funakoshi would have found out about his family and switched to Shotokan.I only ask because its confusing for one source to say he knew about his connection to Shotokan and the person himself said he did not. The interview basically said that his mother and Kanazawa talking over a meal that Kanazawa was invited to at their home. Kanazawa brought up that they had the same last name as the creator of Shotokan and Kenneths mother said "yes we had a great uncle named that" and they put the dots together right then and their.

I found it interesting that they did not realize this and also Funakoshi Sensei has living family that still does Karate.

Kevin73
14th October 2013, 00:20
I only ask because its confusing for one source to say he knew about his connection to Shotokan and the person himself said he did not. The interview basically said that his mother and Kanazawa talking over a meal that Kanazawa was invited to at their home. Kanazawa brought up that they had the same last name as the creator of Shotokan and Kenneths mother said "yes we had a great uncle named that" and they put the dots together right then and their.

I found it interesting that they did not realize this and also Funakoshi Sensei has living family that still does Karate.

No worries. I agree that it seems at odd with each other. But, I think it was the timelines that make it as such. In the Sijo Emperado interview, he isn't really talking about Kenneth Funakoshi's lineage per se, but only mentioning that he was a Kajukenbo BB first and then later switched to Shotokan due to his lineage. Doesn't really say when/where he found out. If we look at the time line, there would have been 4 years of studying Kajukenbo before Kanazawa came to Hawaii and Kenneth Funakoshi states that this was the first exposure he had ever had to Japanese karate, and he didn't even know that there were different styles. So, I think that this is where the confusion is, Sijo Emperado is talking about the event after the fact of Kenneth Funakoshi learning his family history and as Kenneth Funakoshi is telling it, he is walking us through the past as he learned it.

I also find it very interesting that Funakoshi Sensei has family that still does Shotokan. I also, find it even more intersting when we think about how famous Gichin Funakoshi, that one of his own family didn't realize this part of their history.