LIST OF HIGH-RANKED NON-JAPANESE YUDANSHA

[Yamantaka]

Hello, All!

This is an update in my list of high-ranked non-japanese yudansha in Aikido :

Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Oklahoma, 10º Dan
Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(EUA), 8º Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(EUA), 8º Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8º Dan
Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California, 8º Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama, 8º Dan
W.W. "Mac" McNease - Fugakukai, Texas, 8º Dan
Georges Stobbaerts – Ten Chi Aikido, Lisboa, Portugal, 8º Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, EEUU, 8º Dan
Michel Soulenq - Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, Paris, França, 7º Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, Paris, França, 7º Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(EUA), 7º Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(EUA), 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Alemanha, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Alemanha, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, Aikikai, Alemanha, 7th Dan
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan
Giam Pietro Savegango, aikikai(?), Itália, 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, West Virginia, 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii, 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado, 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California, 7th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, Arizona, 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California, 7th Dan
Harry Eto - Shinshin Toitsu, Hawaii, 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii, 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas, 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas, 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, EEUU, 7º Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California, 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas, 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California, 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California, 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama, 7th Dan
#########################################

Anyone has additions, critiques, objections???
Best regards
Ubaldo.

[R Erman]

Why does this Karl Geis get any mention on these lists? I would laugh at anyone claiming to be a Judan in Aikido, so why have the powers that be allowed his name on this list? If he's "created" his own brand of Aiki fine, but he shouldn't be considered a legit 10th by any regulatory body.

Cheers,



[Edited by R Erman on 02-04-2001 at 09:20 AM]

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by R Erman
Why does this Karl Geis get any mention on these lists? I would laugh at anyone claiming to be a Judan in Aikido, so why have the powers that be allowed his name on this list? If he's "created" his own brand of Aiki fine, but he shouldn't be considered a legit 10th by any regulatory body.
Cheers,
[Edited by R Erman on 02-04-2001 at 09:20 AM]

YAMANTAKA : Karl Geis is a longtime aikido practitioner and I never heard anything negative about him. He began Aikido in 1957 at Waseda University, with Tsuneko Miyake and later with Kenji Tomiki. He attained a 6th dan with the Nihon Aikido Association (Tomiki) and later created his own style(Fugakukai) at which he attained his present level. There's nothing wrong with creating his own style, whether you're a japanese or not(Ueshiba, Tomiki, Shioda, Tohei and many others did just that). The problem is if you have competence for that. In the opinion of many people, Geis has. His name is registered in Stanley Pranin's Encyclopedia of Aikido.
IMHO
Best regards
Yamantaka

[Joseph Svinth]

Here's a couple lists that might interest you: http://www3.sympatico.ca/crow.stumpy/cyudansha/main.html
http://www.seikeikan.com/yudansha.htm

Plus two USMAA 8-dans.

http://www.northeastaikikai.com/congratulations.htm

[Matthew Banks]

I feel its arrogant to self nominate a 10th dan to oneself.

Shioda was never ranked 10th dan, but 9th dan. Towards the end of his life he was pronouced mudan, which means ''beyond rank'' I think this is more appropriate. I dont think any head of a major school of aikido, has presented himself 10th dan. That Gary Bennet bloke, who claims to be a 10th dan in his style, when the other styles he said he was affiliated with have not heard of him, ....fraud.


To add to the list...

Soke Thamby Rajah- yoshinkan 9th dan (73 years old) seremban malaysia. ''father of malaysian aikido.
Given 5th dan by soke gozo shioda.

Soke Eddy Stratton- yoshinkan, england ,deceased, awarded 9th dan shortly before his death.




Matt Banks

[R Erman]

Thanks for the short bio on Geis. I appreciate the info. I still can't believe that he is self-promoted though. It does kind of rankle me. Oh well.

Cheers,

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Matthew Banks
I feel its arrogant to self nominate a 10th dan to oneself.

Shioda was never ranked 10th dan, but 9th dan. Towards the end of his life he was pronouced mudan, which means ''beyond rank'' I think this is more appropriate. I dont think any head of a major school of aikido, has presented himself 10th dan.
To add to the list...

Soke Thamby Rajah- yoshinkan 9th dan (73 years old) seremban malaysia. ''father of malaysian aikido.
Given 5th dan by soke gozo shioda.

Soke Eddy Stratton- yoshinkan, england ,deceased, awarded 9th dan shortly before his death.
Matt Banks


YAMANTAKA : According to Stanley Pranin, Shioda Gozo was awarded a tenth dan by the Nihon Kokusai Budoin *( International Martial Arts Federation), a respécted organization.
Thank you for your colaboration. This list mentions only living masters, so I won't use Eddy Stratton but Thamby Rajah will be included in my final update.
best to you

[MarkF]

I've heard nothing but good things about Karl Geis, and never knew his grade or position, except as instructor. I noted that (my count may be off as I only went through it the one time for this) nine on this list are nanadan or above in Geis' group.

Since the head of the USMAA, Philip S. Porter, is listed in his organization as "tenth degree" in shihan ryu aikido, much can be opined about those listings and the USMA Hall of Fame.

BTW: As with all things budo, lists change all the time, and I think Ubaldo is going to be updating quite often in the near future.:)

Hey, Ubaldo!:D

Mark

[Yamantaka]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkF
[B]
Hey, Ubaldo!:D

YAMANTAKA : Hey, Mark! :D

Since the head of the USMAA, Philip S. Porter, is listed in his organization as "tenth degree" in shihan ryu aikido, much can be opined about those listings and the USMA Hall of Fame.

YAMANTAKA : As you may observe, I didn't use USMAA's Hall of Fame...

BTW: As with all things budo, lists change all the time, and I think Ubaldo is going to be updating quite often in the near future.:)
Mark

YAMANTAKA : Updates are quite common everywhere...I just tried to make a list expressing the present moment. Jun Akiyama did the same thing in his Aikiweb site. It's interesting, that's all. I may update it in the future or not. Time will tell.
Best regards

[MarkF]

If it is any concern, one of my favorit lists is "The Book of Lists, by David Wallechinski (AKA Wallace). Lists are fun to make and take apart. This is probably one of the better lists found amoung the E-budo lists, and still it needs constant feeding and dieting to maintain its health.

Personally,I hope you do keep it updated. Lists are great for people who like to go off on lists without knowing the background of the list.

Hey, that sounds a lot like me.:o

[George Ledyard]

Originally posted by Yamantaka


YAMANTAKA : Karl Geis is a longtime aikido practitioner and I never heard anything negative about him. He began Aikido in 1957 at Waseda University, with Tsuneko Miyake and later with Kenji Tomiki. He attained a 6th dan with the Nihon Aikido Association (Tomiki) and later created his own style(Fugakukai) at which he attained his present level. There's nothing wrong with creating his own style, whether you're a japanese or not(Ueshiba, Tomiki, Shioda, Tohei and many others did just that). The problem is if you have competence for that. In the opinion of many people, Geis has. His name is registered in Stanley Pranin's Encyclopedia of Aikido.
IMHO
Best regards
Yamantaka
I got myself in trouble last time I got in on the ranking discussion. Suffice it to say that if you look at all the other people on that list there are only a small number of highly ranked students from each style of Aikido, their numbers are proportionate to the relative size of the organizations to which they belong, and their experience levels are quite uniform for the ranks which they hold and in many cases would be more than the Japanese counterpart at the same rank. Geis Sensei's rank places him at the top of a list that he doesn't outdo in terms of experience. His organization which is small has a disproportionate number of highly ranked students on the list when compared with other organizations, and I would suspect that their ranks are higher, when viewed from the experience standpoint, than their Japanes counterparts. You can draw what conclusions you wish from that.

[George Ledyard]

Originally posted by Yamantaka
Hello, All!

This is an update in my list of high-ranked non-japanese yudansha in Aikido :

Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Oklahoma, 10º Dan
Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(EUA), 8º Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(EUA), 8º Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8º Dan
Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California, 8º Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama, 8º Dan
W.W. "Mac" McNease - Fugakukai, Texas, 8º Dan
Georges Stobbaerts – Ten Chi Aikido, Lisboa, Portugal, 8º Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, EEUU, 8º Dan
Michel Soulenq - Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, Paris, França, 7º Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, Paris, França, 7º Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(EUA), 7º Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(EUA), 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Alemanha, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Alemanha, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, Aikikai, Alemanha, 7th Dan
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan
Giam Pietro Savegango, aikikai(?), Itália, 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, West Virginia, 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii, 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado, 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California, 7th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, Arizona, 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California, 7th Dan
Harry Eto - Shinshin Toitsu, Hawaii, 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii, 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas, 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas, 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, EEUU, 7º Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California, 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas, 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California, 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California, 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama, 7th Dan
#########################################

Anyone has additions, critiques, objections???
Best regards
Ubaldo.

The first name I can think of that is left off is Andre Nocquet, 8th dan from France. Don't think the list can be complete without him. He is said to be the first foreign student that Morihei Ueshiba accepted.

[Dennis Hooker]

Rank is not a true indication of a person’s ability. Sure it’s a guideline and sometimes the only one we are given to evaluate the ability and authenticity of an individuals clam. However, it leaves so much to be desired. The major issue for me regarding my rank is. it tells me what my teacher thinks of me. In truth, that’s all that matters. In my not so sharp mind, if it means more than that then there is something wrong with you. Look at one of the true old timers who trained with O-Sensei and travailed with him and served as his translator on several occasions. A fellow that teaches as true to his studies under O-sensei as anyone I suppose, Henry Kono Sensei, Canadian. Hell I’ve known the man for more years than I can remember and I don’t even know his rank. He may not have any as far as I know. I don’t think his students have any but he is damn sure the real deal. Look at the late Terry D. I think he never took more rank after O-sensei died, maybe it was not offered I never ask him, but regardless of rank his name should be up there with the most senior.

Take all this rank stuff with a grain of salt. Some of it under serves it’s wearer and some of it is laughable.

Dennis Hooker
Ranker than Some, Not as Rank as Others

[Yamantaka]

Ledyard Sama and Hooker Sama,

You have made quite a few correct points. Anyway, my intention was just to prepare a list of rankings. I did not place any special importance on rankings(the higher the best...:)) ) and I know that ranking criteria differ between different organizations.
These people belong to existing organizations(some better than others) but they have those grades and that's what I placed there.
Another point : I didn't place ANDRE NOCQUET there because he's dead. As far as I could I put only living non-japanese yudansha in my list.
A last point : One of the best teachers I ever met was a third dan from Germany. Fantastic technique, great education and excellent spirit. In my opinion, comparable with many 6th or 7th Dan. I know an Aikikai 5th Dan that, again in my opinion, is barely equivalent to a 2nd Dan. And one of my friends is a 1st Dan whom I think well deserves a Sandan.
So what ? I didn't put a list of my personal preferences. If I did, be sure you two would be at the top of my list.
Best regards
Ubaldo.

[James806]

Hello all,

I've noticed some consternation about Karl Geis rank of 10th Dan. It seems that many of you could be misinformed. If I remember correctly Karl Geis was promoted to 6th Dan from Tomiki in 1978 (not sure of exact date) and obtained the ranks up to 10th Dan since that time. He was NOT "self-promoted" to my understanding. He was promoted to 10th Dan by a board of at least 3 other high ranking aikidoka. They make up the Fugakukai International Aikido Association. It has been @25 years since his 6th Dan and is seems reasonable to gain 4 grades in 25 years. If you have any other unanswered questions you can refer to his home page at www.karlgeis.com.

There is a link on this site to Geis Sensei's resume. As well as how the Fugakukai was formed.
I don't know if this will sooth all of the problems. But maybe it will be of some help.

James Day

[Tracy]

Harry Eto Sensei is an 8th Dan he was promoted the same time Nonaka Sensei and Suzuki Sensei.

I also am sure you mean by Non Japanese you are refering to citizenship as Eto, Suzuki and Nonaka are Japanese-Americans.

[Yamantaka]

Dear Tracy,

By non-japanese, I mean someone who wasn't born in Japan. Could you please tell me if that applies to Eto Sensei, Nonaka Sensei and Suzuki Sensei?
Best regards
Yamantaka

[Tracy]

All 3 were not born in Japan as far as I know.

[Joseph Svinth]

Ubaldo --

Mr. Nonaka was born on Big Island. I believe Mr. Suzuki was born on Maui. And Mr. Eto was born on Kauai. For an article on Mr. Eto, see http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue1/eto.html . For Mr. Nonaka, see http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_narimatsu_0101.htm .

[Yamantaka]

Hello, Guys and Gals!

First of all, Thanks for your patience and support on my small project. My last upgrade (at this moment) is :
###############################
Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan
Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Harry Eto - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii (USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
W.W. "Mac" McNease - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 8th Dan
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Michel Soulenq - Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, Aikikai, Germany, 7th Dan
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan
Giam Pietro Savegango, Aikikai(?), Italy, 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, Arizona(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
#########################################

Anyone has additions, critiques, objections???
Best regards
Ubaldo.

[Yamantaka]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yamantaka
[B]Hello, Guys and Gals!

First of all, Thanks for your patience and support on my small project. My last upgrade (at this moment) is :
###############################
OOPS! I forgot DONALD MORIYAMA Sensei (7th Dan), from the Aikikai. Sorry for my lapse...
################################

Yamantaka

[Chuck Clark]

Just a small note for your list...

I think Karl Geis sensei still lives and teaches in Houston, Texas. He was born in Oklahoma, but has lived in Houston for many years.

Geis sensei is one of my teachers; and although I haven't seen him in over sixteen years, I am still learning from what he taught me.

[Matthew Banks]

Yes you again left out Thamby Rajah sensei 9th dan, Yoshinkan. You said you were going to add him in before but you have not. Why? He's the father of Malaysian Aikido.





Matt Banks

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Matthew Banks
Yes you again left out Thamby Rajah sensei 9th dan, Yoshinkan. You said you were going to add him in before but you have not. Why? He's the father of Malaysian Aikido.
Matt Banks

YAMANTAKA : Oops...Another shot in my foot...
It's included. Just a point : Thamby Rajah doesn't belong to Yoshinkan anymore. He's now linked to the Shudokan International. His 9th Dan is from that organization.
Thanks for your help.
Good Keiko

[Matthew Banks]

YAMANTAKA I said Master Thamby Rajah was from Yoshinkan so people would remember him. I belong to the shudokan institute of aikido, the shudokan used to be a yoshinkan institue until fairly recently due to ''politics'' there was a split. Shioda sensei is still on the kamiza etc were just no longer part of organisation ''on paper''. The point of this reply is that Im very impressed by your research methods. How did you find out that Thamby Rajah sensei no longer belonged to the yoshinkan, and now is part of the yoshinkan. Please visit our site
www.shudokan.f9.co.uk for more information.

How did you compile this info?

once again very impressed



Matt Banks

[Matthew Banks]

Oops there's a spelling mistake on the list. Its SHUDOKAN not shodukan.


cheers



Matt Banks

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Matthew Banks
Oops there's a spelling mistake on the list. Its SHUDOKAN not shodukan.
cheers
Matt Banks

YAMANTAKA : Hell, another mistake...:(
Thank you for your congratulations on my small list effort. It was done through reading books and magazines; talking with Aikido masters; corresponding with authorities all over the world; and trekking through hours and hours of Internet surfing. And, of course, checking and rechecking...
I visited your site and many others on Thamby Rajah on Google and Mamma.
Best regards and good keiko

[Stephenjudoka]

Hi,

I can think of one name for your list from England 'Brian Eustace' 8th Dan. He lives in England but studied under Tomiki and is the founder member of the British Taiho Jutsu Association.
Brian was the first to teach Aikido to the British Police Service and for many years worked for the Home Office teaching the police instructors at the National Instructor Training Centre in Harrogate.
I think he desreves to be on your list.

Thanks

Stephen Sweetlove
To ask is but a moments shame but not toask and remain ignorant is a lifelong shame.

[SimonW11]

Mr. Robert Forrest-Webb
7th Dan Shodokan

Skenfrith

[Yamantaka]

To Stephen and Simon,

Thank you very much for your cooperation. I'm checking on the names suggested and pretty soon I'll give you some feedback.
Best regards

[SimonW11]

Mr. Forrest-Webb
Is listed on the British aikido association site.

He hosted a a Sword course with an instructor from one of the Koryu arts last year. Was it Kashima I cant remember. I nearly went...

Anyway I really logged on to say people have been trying to contact you both on and off Aikido-l. Your mail is bouncing.

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by SimonW11
Mr. Forrest-Webb
Is listed on the British aikido association site.
He hosted a a Sword course with an instructor from one of the Koryu arts last year. Was it Kashima I cant remember. I nearly went...
Anyway I really logged on to say people have been trying to contact you both on and off Aikido-l. Your mail is bouncing.

yamantaka : Hello, Simon! The problem with my e-mail has been solved. It was YAHOO's fault...anyway, the difference is minimal : my previous e-mail began with my surname(alcantara) and my new one is the same, just changing "alcantara" to "alcanta".
Back to the thread : give me data, man! Forrest-Webb's complete name, ranking, who gave him that rank(what organization) and all you can find.
That'll help me a lot...
Thank you and best regards

[PRehse]

I have a problem with the list in that it really does not take into account relative grading profiles.

Just by example and no reflection on abilities.

Karl Geis' organization runs from Shodan to Kudan (their choice by the way) whereas the highest rank within the Japan Aikido Association (Tomiki) is 8th Dan. We have non-Japanese 6th Dans with more than 35 years of Aikido that studied several years directly under Tomiki, are still active and highly respected. By setting an artificial limit you are excluding some serious budoka.

By the way Kenji Tomiki was awarded 8th Dan by Ueshiba in 1940 and remained at that rank until his death almost 40 years latter. That is why traditionally 8th Dan is the highest rank within the JAA and in fact 7th Dan is pretty much the top.

[Yamantaka]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PRehse
[B]I have a problem with the list in that it really does not take into account relative grading profiles.

yamantaka : The problem with lists and polls is that they are not universal. Some people will agree with them, some will not. One would do them in a way, another one would disagree and propose other way.
The alternative are infinite. I established a limit in 7th Dan. Why? Arbitrarily, of course, as so many things in life. Whatever limit I established, it would present problems. Relative grading profiles, as you say...I knew one 8th Dan that I considered very, very bad, and one of the greatest aikidoka I ever met, worthy of a 6 or 7th dan, was just a sandan. I know shodan that are very, very good, the equivalent of many godan. So I decided for 7th dan, knowing that would present some problems.
As you proposed to make no difference in quality of instruction, I decided to make no difference in ranking criteria. In other words, my list is NON-COMPARATIVE. If Tomiki style has as a limit the 8th Dan, so be it. If Fugakukai goes to 1o th dan, so what? One organization has so many 7th Dan, so many 8th Dan and no more. So what? It's their decision. No comparison is made with any other style. I may be misunderstood? Believe me, I and you will be ALWAYS misunderstood. It's a part of life. My list has been praised by many and disliked by many. What can I do? It's impossible to please everyone.
In short, I tried to do the best I could. That's all. Obviously my work will be clumsy and far from perfect. But I'm happy that I tried to do my best.
A big hug from Down Under (no, not Australia!)

[PRehse]

Hi Ubaldo;

What has your list done.

It has provided information.
It has provoked discussion.

What more could you want.

I enjoyed both parts and laud your effort. Discussing a lists shortcomings does not detract from its value just puts it in perspective. And yes I was sure that you had already thought it through but what am I supposed to do with myself on a grey Sunday in the cold North.

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by PRehse
Hi Ubaldo;
What has your list done.
It has provided information.
It has provoked discussion.
What more could you want.



YAMANTAKA : You are, as almost always, right, Peter San! Believe me, I read your previous post with an open heart.
You are really a nice guy... :kiss:

[Karl Kuhn]

Ok, I'll bite. The list is an interesting exercise, but ever time I see it I am stunned to discover that 9 of the 38 entries listed are Fugakukai. That's %24 of the world's 7th dan and up. Very interesting. I think it is worth noting that all of these individuals are from the Southern US and there is no evidence that there is anything international about this organization.

Again, thanks for work on the list. Even if it does draw some "curious" conclusions.

Peace,

Karl Kuhn

[James806]

I am "curious" why so many people are "curious" about the Fugakukai and yet not one person (as of yet) has refered to the Fugakukai for the answers to their questions. I previously provided a link to Mr. Geis' website for all to see. Also, I know Mr. Geis personally and he would be more than happy to answer any questions and/or criticisms regarding the Fugakukai. His e-mail is on the website at www.karlgeis.com

Thanks
James Day

[SimonW11]

Originally posted by Yamantaka


yamantaka :
Back to the thread : give me data, man! Forrest-Webb's complete name, ranking, who gave him that rank(what organization) and all you can find.
That'll help me a lot...
Thank you and best regards

It was announced 1999. By the British Aikido Association. However they only grade to 4th dan. As they are affiliates of the Japan Aikido association. I presume all higher grades are awarded by the Tomiki Hombu.
They have an extensive web site at.
http://www.aikido-baa.org.uk/

in the the Newsletter section. Check the Chairmans Correspondance for may of that year.

[MarkF]

Originally posted by Karl Kuhn
Ok, I'll bite. The list is an interesting exercise, but ever time I see it I am stunned to discover that 9 of the 38 entries listed are Fugakukai. That's %24 of the world's 7th dan and up. Very interesting. I think it is worth noting that all of these individuals are from the Southern US and there is no evidence that there is anything international about this organization.

Again, thanks for work on the list. Even if it does draw some "curious" conclusions.

Peace,

Karl Kuhn

I made reference to this, also, but then I think this list is a work in progress and probably will be until Ubaldo gets tired and goes to bed.:D

So they grade through kyudan. Who doesn't these days? As Ubaldo said, it wasn't a list of who is best, it is just a list (and for people who like lists as much as I do, get David Wallechinski's "Book of Lists." If asked, I would bet they would make this an entry in a heartbeat.

Tomiki also held 7-dan in judo.

Mark

[PRehse]

Actually Tomiki was 9th Dan in Kodokan Judo.

[Stephenjudoka]

Hi,

Information on Brian Eustace.
Brian was the President of the British Aikido Association in the 1980's and was awarded his 7th Dan by the Japanese Aikido Association during the 80's.

Brian under the authorization of the British Aikido Association formed the Taiho Jutsu branch purely for Police Officers and at one stage every Police Officer who joined during the 80's from the 43 forces of England and Wales were graded in the Taiho Jutsu system.

Brian was also Vice President of the Martial Arts Commission ( A Government backed group overseeing all MA in GB)

In 2000 Brian was awarded his 8th Dan by the British Taiho Jutsu Association for all the work and time he had
given to Aikido and Taiho Jutsu.

If you need more information on Brian please contact member Tim Burton who has all the history of Brian Eustace.

Stephen Sweetlove

[Kiwi_Aikidoka]

Grades grades grades.

A shodan to one man may mean a san dan to another. I feel that grades beyond a certain point are fairly irrevelant yes? you can't really judge a persons ability or commitment or their skill in imparting that knowledge by the grade they hold alone. I guess that is kind of obvious but lets not get to carried away by whom has what grade and is it really valid.
Their student body and affiliated mentors are really the only ones that can make that judgement.
The only thing that confuses me is....if you award yourself a grade.....does that really count?

Yours in Aikido

Marten

[MarkF]

Originally posted by PRehse
Actually Tomiki was 9th Dan in Kodokan Judo.

Actually, he wasn't. He was a 7-dan when he left the Kodokan, and it is also in his own words in Judo and Aikido. If he were posthumously awarded a higher grade, that would have been extremely rare, as the only person the Kodokan graded posthumously was Jigoro Kano. He claimed no dan, and consequently was raised to an artifial top.

If the honbu recognized Tomiki sensei as a 9-dan judo, that is something else, but as his widow has just passed away, that is something we can ask the Kodokan, if you wish. If I'm wrong, well you can beat me over the head with your keyboard.:D
****

Which reminds me, to the honbu, and for the loss suffered by family, I am truly sorry. He was one of the greats, and was responisble for the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu no kata, not to mention a great teacher. His wife, taking over the running of honbu, took on a tremendous job. I am sure she too will be missed by all including here family.

Mark

[PRehse]

I was always told 9th Dan and this was at Shodokan Honbu. However, after a quick search, the only references I can find is the last sentence in http://www.tomiki.org/tomikihistory.html which probably came from the same source as my knowledge and the entry from Stanley Pranin's http://www.AikidoJournal.com encyclopedia entry which states that he was awarded 8th Dan in Kodokan Judo in 1964 about 15 years before his death and 6 years before he retired from Waseada University where he taught both Aikido and Judo. I vaguely remember that the 9th Dan is referred to in Nariyama and Shishida's book on Aikido Kyogi which I was helping to translate into English. Please check - I have no idea whether that was awarded posthumously or not although I will ask this summer when I go for three months of training. Not something that I want to disturb the powers that be with an e-mail especially now. The loss of Mrs. Tomiki has been taken very hard. Honbu was of course run by Tetsuro Nariyama Shihan but the lady was President of the Japan Aikido Association and given her age, 87, quite active.





Originally posted by MarkF


Actually, he wasn't. He was a 7-dan when he left the Kodokan, and it is also in his own words in Judo and Aikido. If he were posthumously awarded a higher grade, that would have been extremely rare, as the only person the Kodokan graded posthumously was Jigoro Kano. He claimed no dan, and consequently was raised to an artifial top.

If the honbu recognized Tomiki sensei as a 9-dan judo, that is something else, but as his widow has just passed away, that is something we can ask the Kodokan, if you wish. If I'm wrong, well you can beat me over the head with your keyboard.:D
****

Which reminds me, to the honbu, and for the loss suffered by family, I am truly sorry. He was one of the greats, and was responisble for the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu no kata, not to mention a great teacher. His wife, taking over the running of honbu, took on a tremendous job. I am sure she too will be missed by all including here family.

Mark

[PRehse]

There is a great article on AikidoJournal online about Professor Yamashita who was apparently the first person to be awarded 10th Dan posthumously so it appears Kano was not the only one.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/articles/ajArticles/_ProfYamashita.asp

How common is the awarding of posthumous grades?

The article is really good and well worth the read. I especially like the story about him taking on 15 baddies and carelessly breaking the neck of one of them. Kodokan suspended him for a short time because of this indiscretion.

He was also heavily involved with President Rosevelt and early Jujitsu in the US.



Originally posted by MarkF


If he were posthumously awarded a higher grade, that would have been extremely rare, as the only person the Kodokan graded posthumously was Jigoro Kano. Mark

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by PRehse
There is a great article on AikidoJournal online about Professor Yamashita who was apparently the first person to be awarded 10th Dan posthumously so it appears Kano was not the only one.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/articles/ajArticles/_ProfYamashita.asp
How common is the awarding of posthumous grades?
The article is really good and well worth the read. I especially like the story about him taking on 15 baddies and carelessly breaking the neck of one of them. Kodokan suspended him for a short time because of this indiscretion.
He was also heavily involved with President Rosevelt and early Jujitsu in the US.


YAMANTAKA : I think, Peter, the only place you can go to have a definitive answer is the Kodokan. Any other person or organization will be subject to doubt.
Best

[Duke343]

Originally posted by R Erman
Why does this Karl Geis get any mention on these lists? I would laugh at anyone claiming to be a Judan in Aikido, so why have the powers that be allowed his name on this list? If he's "created" his own brand of Aiki fine, but he shouldn't be considered a legit 10th by any regulatory body.

Cheers,



[Edited by R Erman on 02-04-2001 at 09:20 AM]

Let me clear this up as I was there for his 10th dan promotion.

A committee of ranks above Rokudan (over 20 at least) decide promotions in the organization, they elected to promote him. He did not self-promote.

Theoretically, if you limit the rank of one out of reverence for another the entire rank system breaks down and fails. In 10 full generations no one will be promoted to shodan.

Like him or hate him, Geis is a brilliant Martial Artist. Promoted to 6th dan by the first 8th dan of Aikido (not bad for a gai-jin, the only non-japanese to reach 6th dan under Tomiki himself) 4th dan Kodokan, Olympic Judo coach, 8th dan USJA.

Lets see the rank of his detractors. I assure you they are pee-ons compared to Geis.

[Robert Cowham]

The issue of rank has heaps of baggage going along with it. It's not just non-Japanese who are affected by it either.

I was interested that Suganuma sensei of Fukuoka was only promoted to 8th dan this year, having been 7th for at least 20 years.

There's a problem with dead men's shoes at that sort of level.

As to Karl Geis, I made a point of looking him up when in Houston a few years back - very welcoming and pleasant gentleman, and I enjoyed their practice.

Comparing ranks in different organisations is a bit like apples and oranges - there are different criteria at work.

Does it really matter?

Robert

[Yamantaka]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Duke343
[B]
Let me clear this up as I was there for his 10th dan promotion.
A committee of ranks above Rokudan (over 20 at least) decide promotions in the organization, they elected to promote him. He did not self-promote.
Like him or hate him, Geis is a brilliant Martial Artist. Promoted to 6th dan by the first 8th dan of Aikido (not bad for a gai-jin, the only non-japanese to reach 6th dan under Tomiki himself) 4th dan Kodokan, Olympic Judo coach, 8th dan USJA.

YAMANTAKA : As I've said before, each organization has its own criteria for promotion (judo followed the same way quoted above for the promotion of Jigoro Kano to 12th Dan) and my list wasn't making any comparison between ranking from different organizations.
I tried to research as much as I could for including people and based on my research I dismissed many organizations and high-ranked yudansha. Personal decision, you know...
I discovered nothing bad against Geis Sensei, quite on the contrary. He had a long and fruitful life in Aikido.
Anyway, we should avoid flaming and heated discussion on a minor subject. After all, ranks do exist in all organizations. We should not give excessive value to them beyond the elaboration of a list for consulting.
Best

[PRehse]

Originally posted by Yamantaka
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Duke343
[B]
(judo followed the same way quoted above for the promotion of Jigoro Kano to 12th Dan

Far as I know Karl Geis is still alive and kicking. Kano was dead when they did this (see Mark's post above). So not quite the same.

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by PRehse


Far as I know Karl Geis is still alive and kicking. Kano was dead when they did this (see Mark's post above). So not quite the same.

YAMANTAKA : Is this so important to you, Peter? Or is it just for the sake of debate? As I said before, each organization has its own criteria. Some things may be similar but as you say not quite the same... :wave:
It would be different, of course, if you have documented information against Geis Sensei, besides something "you don't like"... Do you?
Best

[PRehse]

Originally posted by Yamantaka

YAMANTAKA : Is this so important to you, Peter? Or is it just for the sake of debate? As I said before, each organization has its own criteria. Some things may be similar but as you say not quite the same... :wave:
It would be different, of course, if you have documented information against Geis Sensei, besides something "you don't like"... Do you?
Best


How you read the quip as something against Karl Geis I have no idea or for that matter why I would want to detract from the man. I've said before how someone ranks in their organization is their right and their business. My only problem with the list has already been discussed - and after your explanations most people understand the relationships and your intent.

I only pointed out that Kano's promotion to 12 Dan was not quite the same - main reason being body temperature. Not sure why clarifying someone's point is a problem.

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by PRehse

I only pointed out that Kano's promotion to 12 Dan was not quite the same - main reason being body temperature. Not sure why clarifying someone's point is a problem.

YAMANTAKA : Put this way...it isn't! Perhaps I didn't understood you well. Have a toast! :toast:
Best

[PRehse]

Originally posted by Yamantaka


YAMANTAKA : Put this way...it isn't! Perhaps I didn't understood you well. Have a toast! :toast:
Best


It's OK Ubaldo. Just to set the record straight I do have a small problem with the 10th Dan in that his Aikido is based primarily on Tomiki and in my mind it is disrespectful to take a grade higher than your teacher. It also, again in my mind, has implications.

I used to be more worked up about it than I am now coming to realize that

a.) As if me being upset is going to change anything.
b.) I have no power to look into the Karl Geis's mind and to fathom what his intensions are or were.
c.) Just because I think so does not make it right/wrong.
d.) Karl Geis has got way more time in the art than I do and one has to respect that.
e.) As discussed - it is his organization and their ranking scheme. To compare the situation to what Tomiki or Kano would have done is a bit of a red herring considering both the time and place are different.

[PRehse]

Another name for your list is John Waite, 7th Dan JAA, England

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by PRehse
Another name for your list is John Waite, 7th Dan JAA, England

YAMANTAKA : Thank you, Peter! I'm glad we're finally beginning to agree in agreeing... :confused:
On the other side, I'm trying to contact Geis Sensei, asking him to post his ideas on this list, a few days from now, in this same bat-channel... :up:
By the way, can you give me the address of your friend (I guess in the UK) , in order that I may ask him a few questions?
Best regards and good keiko

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Yamantaka


YAMANTAKA : Thank you, Peter! I'm glad we're finally beginning to agree in agreeing... :confused:
On the other side, I'm trying to contact Geis Sensei, asking him to post his ideas on this list, a few days from now, in this same bat-channel... :up:
By the way, can you give me the address of your friend (I guess in the UK) , in order that I may ask him a few questions?
Best regards and good keiko
( And since you liked them, there goes 3 more quotes from the Kyujukyu Kakun :
"Do not criticize others' mistakes;
Even if you have carefully considered a plan, You should take heed when a contradictory opinion is offered;
Honesty may not always be helpful but in the long run, it will be the best policy".
the above 99 articles are wordy and would be burdensome to others. They are not to be divulged carelessly. They should be regarded as my last testimony to you. Herein lies the secret oral traditions of
Takeda.
Eiroku Gannen (1558)
To the Choro(Eldest son)
Takeda Nobushige )
Takeda Nobushige

[PRehse]

Originally posted by Yamantaka


YAMANTAKA : Thank you, Peter! I'm glad we're finally beginning to agree in agreeing... :confused:
On the other side, I'm trying to contact Geis Sensei, asking him to post his ideas on this list, a few days from now, in this same bat-channel... :up:
By the way, can you give me the address of your friend (I guess in the UK) , in order that I may ask him a few questions?
Best regards and good keiko

Please contact Tony, the list maintainer of
http://www.aikido-baa.org.uk/

He is a student of John Waite. I have never met Waite sensei but have read his posts on Tomiki-l.

Tony is the same guy who provided you information on Brian Eustace

[Yamantaka]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

The Yamantaka Hall of Fame presents...
The Non-Japanese High-Ranking List of Yudansha!
(Last Update).
Corrections, additions, etc...
##################################

Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan
Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Harry Eto - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii (USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
W.W. "Mac" McNease - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 8th Dan
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Michel Soulenq - Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA (He's no longer a member of that organization) (*)
Robert Forrest-West – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, Aikikai, Germany, 7th Dan
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan
Giam Pietro Savegango, Aikikai(?), Italy, 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, Arizona(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
#########################################

(*) The BAA informs that Mr. Brian Eustace is involved with another art – Taiho Jutsu and is no longer a
Participant in Tomiki Aikido activities. We have included him, since his name and ranking were recognized by that organization.

##################################

Best regards
Yamantaka

[Matthew Banks]

Originally posted by Yamantaka
Ladies and Gentlemen,

The Yamantaka Hall of Fame presents...
The Non-Japanese High-Ranking List of Yudansha!
(Last Update).
Corrections, additions, etc...
##################################

Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan
Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Harry Eto - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii (USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
W.W. "Mac" McNease - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 8th Dan
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Michel Soulenq - Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA (Não é mais membro da organização) (*)
Robert Forrest-West – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, Aikikai, Germany, 7th Dan
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan
Giam Pietro Savegango, Aikikai(?), Italy, 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, Arizona(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
#########################################

(*) The BAA informs that Mr. Brian Eustace is involved with another art – Taiho Jutsu and is no longer a
Participant in Tomiki Aikido activities. We have included him, since his name and ranking were recognized by that organization.

##################################

Best regards
Yamantaka


aye its a grand list

im visiting the second guy on that list for 3 weeks in Malaysia...july 30th...cant wait




Matt Banks

[Stefan Borchers]

Hi at all!

Firts of all I beg your pardon for my skill in the english language!

Here is al little alteration for your list. Gerd Walter 7. Dan was a high ranked member of the geman Aikikai, but he founded (together with other Aikikai members) a association named "Bundesverband der Aikido Schulen" BdAS!!! =Federal Association of Aikido Schools!

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Stefan Borchers
Hi at all!

Firts of all I beg your pardon for my skill in the english language!

Here is al little alteration for your list. Gerd Walter 7. Dan was a high ranked member of the geman Aikikai, but he founded (together with other Aikikai members) a association named "Bundesverband der Aikido Schulen" BdAS!!! =Federal Association of Aikido Schools!

YAMANTAKA : Hello, Stefan!
Have no fear, your english is very good, at least better than mine...
I guess you mean Gerhard Walter. The last information I got he was a 7th Dan Aikikai. Do you have any site on him or additional information?
thank you very much and best regards
Ubaldo

[Stefan Borchers]

Hi Ubaldo!

Yes, I have an adress...

http://www.bdas.de/



... it is the HP from the "Bundesverband der Aikido Schulen"! (What a name) :look: click under "Lehrer Komitee" (that means teaching staff) and you will find him in the list of the menbers!

Gerhard Walter is on of three chairman of this association and a member of the teaching staff! The Bdas is founded out of a discontend with the leading method of Asai Sensei... as far as I know!

[Yamantaka]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stefan Borchers
[B]Hi Ubaldo!
Yes, I have an adress...
http://www.bdas.de/


YAMANTAKA : Danke, mein freund!

[P Goldsbury]

Yamantaka Sama,

We meet again in a new discussion forum. My understanding about Mr Walter and his group is that he strongly objected to Asai Sensei's rules/system for giving dan grades in the Aikikai Deutschland and formed his own group. This had quite serious consequences for Asai Sensei's organisation. For the Aikikai, and organisations like the IAF, the biggest problem is that the Walter group have given their own dan grades (NB. this is my understanding) and I doubt very much that Mr Walter's 7th dan was awarded by the present Doshu or his predecessor. Of course I can check with my 'sources'.

Best regards,

Peter Goldsbury

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by P Goldsbury
I doubt very much that Mr Walter's 7th dan was awarded by the present Doshu or his predecessor. Of course I can check with my 'sources'.
Best regards,
Peter Goldsbury

YAMANTAKA : You'll help me very much, Goldsbury Sama! Please, do it! And in that opportunity, do not forget two other guys I asked you about : Mr. Kassuga and Mr. Michel Soulenq (7th Dan - Aikikai? - France).
Thank you a lot.
Ubaldo.

[Yamantaka]

Dear friends,

Karl Geis Sensei has forwarded me this letter, asking that I put it in this Forum. In it he tries to answer some of the questions raised about his organization and his dan grading.
Mr. Geis also asked me to express his sorrow that he's unable to keep an open debate here, due to lack of time. Anyway, if anyone wishes to ask him further questions, he may be reached at his new e-mail :
karl@kegkeg.com
I would also like to point out, answering a question raised by my friend, Peter Rehse, that the fact that Tomiki Kenji Sensei kept the dan grande he received from O-Sensei and that his organization (the Japan Aikido Association) has also kept that limit, admirable and correct as it is, sets no standard to be followed by other practitioners. It should be remembered that Mochizuki Minoru Sensei and Shioda Gozo Sensei were ranked 10th Dan by the Nihon Kokusai Budoin/IMAF and no one thinks ill of them because of that. Again, we should remember that each organization has its own criteria. To each his own...
Best
Ubaldo.

###################################
"Dear Mr Alcantara

I will try to answer your questions, to the best of my knowledge.
Each rank that I have received was somebody else’s idea and not mine. Frankly, I feel that once anyone reaches the rank of 6th dan, their knowledge and opinions about technical ideas is as good as anyone else. All rank above that is in recognition of other things.
People get their shorts all twisted up about rank when the problem is simple. If any organization wants to remain viable and keep backbiting and politics to a minimum, people who provide leadership and invest teaching time need to be kept ahead of the student body, in order to keep the organizational structure
pyramidal. Jigoro Kano was promoted to 12th dan so that others could be promoted to 10th, 9th etc.
and as he postulated the top rank will rise as the pyramid gets taller etc. Otherwise, the following happens :
the mature organization begins to look like a mushroom supported on a thin stem set in a large base.
If the rank structure is stopped at 7th dan, then people who have been around a long time and have achieved the rank of 6th dan are stuck. The Godans don't do much better because once a cap is put on rank and the rank becomes a high one, 3rd dans can't be promoted to 4th dan until there is room, so the time in grade for a sandan becomes the time in grad for yondan . The same applies to the yondan trying to make godan so now the yondan's time in grade for promotion is really the time in grade of the godan waiting for rokudan. etc. The real injustice, however, is to the Sandan who often finds that in reality his time in grade is that of a godan etc. We have all seen organizations where the time in grade and the requirements for Shodan becomes longer and more technical requirements are added etc.
Suddenly, you have a large cadre of shodans and nidans; a very thin column of sandan; and a very large mushroom of waiting polititians.
Although I never asked or expected a promotion, I was probably promoted by my organization because
I tried my best to see that people got what they deserved and that the pyramid structure was kept stable.
Rank has never been an important issue with me. I have found that there are many people who like to dress the part and talk the part of the hanshi. There are many who are concert teachers (people who teach by showing how good they are, under carefully scripted conditions).





There are many who find some imagined power in criticizing and condemning others. There are very few who can really impart wisdom along with technical expertise.The only goal that I have in Aikido is to become more capable every day in the art of imparting true self confidence into my aikido family. By the way in my organization and in my own school, I am known as Karl, not sensei or shihan or hanshi. People stay in our organization because treatment is fair and they were promoted to the rank they deserved and the pyramid of knowledge grew to a solid monolith of self confidence, knowledge and power. In my opinion it is the only fair and equitable way to truly develop a really powerful body of knowledge that reaches critical mass and, as an idea, cannot be destroyed because it is self sustaining. How are we going to tell someone who can prove he is a sixth dan that he is a sixth dan ? That is silly!
I tell my students that it takes 10 yrs to make sixth dan but it takes 20 more to become a really confident and competent teacher and giver of self confidence.
My people stay in the system for years; my people learn; and my people are confident and capable when doing real aikido, rising and being derived from the inner spirit. We have proven our system works.
When my students began to achieve ranks very close to mine they became uncomfortable and elevated me.
By the way, in our organization, the President (myself) cannot sit on a promotion board nor can he grant any rank. Whatsoever, a common club instructor has more promotion power than I have. A yondan can promote to shodan without review. I cannot. In my own dojo, my leaders must recommend students for promotion, form a board and make the promotion. I am then advised that a board has been held and the results of that board. I then issue a diploma. If you come to one of my seminars you will find that on the fourth day at two oclock in the afternoon, when the promotion board holds rank promotion demonstrations, I am nowhere to be found. I am not allowed to be in the room during demonstrations or deliberations.
Therfore I go to the movies.
Do I think my promotion was correct ? In the best interest of our organizational structure , yes.
The only ranks that have ever been important to me are my yondan in Judo, achieved in the kodokan, which gave me teaching rank in japan and my 6th dan from Tomiki Sensei at Waseda university. I think you will agree that this is a fairly rare combination. That is something people should be jealous of.
The JAA system is lopsided because most of the practitioners are of college age and they stop practicing after college and there are really a very few old boys who continue to practice and achieve higher grade than sandan.




Mr. tomiki's 8th dan was very sufficient to provide room for the pyramidal structure to grow uninhibited. You will probably find fewer than a 100 high rank players still in action in the JAA, the college coaches etc.
We, on the other hand, keep more than a thousand active members with about 500 active black belts trying to make a viable teaching pyramid out of that. Our people are usually over the age of 30 and
our average number of years in active Aikido will as a guess be about 6 or seven years with all of the low ranks. Our people are established and aikido is not a college thing but a way of life and a permanent part of their life.
I can understand why our promotion board chose to elevate my rank. It was done to keep harmony.
Mr. Alcantara, we will be happy to pay your air fare (economy and reasonable) to our seminar
and put you up and feed you for 6 days, if you will come to our summer seminar june 18-22, here at my dojo in Houston. That way you can see for yourself.
We do not make this offer to many people because they come with impure motives and hidden agenda. You however appear to be a fairminded and honest man so, come and experience our way of Aikido.
Perhaps then you can reach a comfortable place from which to answer these questions for yourself without my words.
I must stop as I have to rise at 5oclock tomorrow to travel to Oklahoma for a seminar. Thank you for your interest. Any questions that you feel are not answered please repeat them so i don't have so many to think about.
warmest regards
karl e. geis
P.S. Mr. Alcantara,
I failed to make it clear that in the case of my promotion, my
signature does not appear on the paper.
The testamentary to 10th dan was signed by 20 +- of the attending
members of the board of directors and the promotion board of the
organization.
I would also like to add that none of the people who are making a big
thing about my rank are in our organization nor have they spent 30 yrs building a system and organization, as I have, consistent with the environment they are living
in. Further none of these so called experts have ever investigated us
or what we do. Why? I'll tell you : because our reputation has been
kept above reproach by our membership.







Further, since the Majority of our high ranks and old timers are and
were high ranked judoka to begin with, the so called experts couldn't
muscle us and that reputation kept them away and allowed us to develop
a truly soft and dynamic self confidence giving art that we are proud
of. The method we use is called The Kihara method and is unique to
Aikido and the martial arts and takes Aikido to another level.

Come see what we do

warmest regards
Karl E. Geis

##################################

[Stephenjudoka]

Well what a good answer. I am not into politics etc or worry about grades. I have never met or heard of Mr Geis until I visited this forum but I must say he talks a lot of sense - He definately should be a leader of an organisation with that answer.

Well done Mr Geis.

Stephen Sweetlove

[Yamantaka]

Dear All,

Since much was made of my including Karl Geis in my list of high-ranking non-japanese yudansha, I think it will be interesting to present some information about him and the foundation of Fugakukai Aikido, as well as its links to Tomiki Aikido :
http://www.karlgeis.com/origin.htm
Best regards

[Yamantaka]

Hello, All!

A new correction to my Aikido list, thanks to Nick Herman, Stanley Pranin and a few other guys and information sites. PATRICK AUGÉ Sensei is not an 8th Dan, as I stated before, but a 7th Dan.
So, this is the last update to my list :

Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan
Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Harry Eto - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii (USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan

Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
W.W. "Mac" McNease - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 8th Dan
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Michel Soulenq - Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA (Não é mais membro da organização) (*)
Robert Forrest-West – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, Aikikai, Germany, 7th Dan
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Aikikai(?), Italy, 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, Arizona(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
#########################################

Any new corrections, additions, commentaries???
Yamantaka

[Yamantaka]

Dear all,

It's time to do some upgrade on my list of high-ranking non-japanese living yudansha.
W.W. "Mac" McNease - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 8th Dan has been taken out, since he died recently, according information from Karl Geis Sensei.

Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan
Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Harry Eto - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii (USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Walther von Krenner - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Lou Periello - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan

Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Michel Soulenq - Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA (Não é mais membro da organização) (*)
Robert Forrest-West – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, Aikikai (?), Germany, 7th Dan
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Aikikai(?), Italy, 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, Arizona(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
#########################################

NOTES :
a) There's no intention of comparing organizations. Criteria do vary and there's no way to do that. We just intend to present ranking among the several aikido organizations.
b) We tried to restrict this list to people and organizations internationally respected. Only in one case (USMAA), we did include an organization against which there are some restrictions but we did not include every member of it but just two of them : Lou Periello Sensei and Walther von Krenner Sensei, whom I think fully deserve it.
c) Brian Eustace Sensei is no longer participating in Tomiki Aikido activities but the BAA (British Aikido Association) still recognizes his dan ranking so we've respectec it.

As always, any help will be welcome
Ubaldo.

[Greg Jennings]

Originally posted by Yamantaka
Dear all,

It's time to do some upgrade on my list of high-ranking non-japanese living yudansha.

Donald Moriyama - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan

#########################################
Ubaldo.

I wrote you privately about this quite some time ago. Donald S. Moriyama's rank is Aikikai, not Ki-Aikido.
See http://www.pixi.com/~psmac/dojos/PearlCity/moriyama.htm

Sincerely,

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Greg Jennings

I wrote you privately about this quite some time ago. Donald S. Moriyama's rank is Aikikai, not Ki-Aikido.
See http://www.pixi.com/~psmac/dojos/PearlCity/moriyama.htm
Sincerely,

YAMANTAKA : Sorry, Greg! You're absolutely right. I'm doing the necessary corrections.
Thank you for correcting me
Best

[Yamantaka]

Thanks to Greg, this is the last update to our list :

Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan
Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Harry Eto - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii (USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Walther von Krenner - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Lou Periello - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan

Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Michel Soulenq - Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA (Não é mais membro da organização) (*)
Robert Forrest-West – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, Aikikai (?), Germany, 7th Dan
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Aikikai(?), Italy, 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, Arizona(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
#########################################

I'm also waiting Peter Goldsbury confirmation on Gerhard Walther, from Germany.
Best

[Yamantaka]

Dear all,

There's another name included in my list of high-ranking non-japanese living yudansha : THOMAS H. MAKIYAMA (born in Hawaii), living in Japan and founder (8th Dan) of Keijutsukai Aikido.
The updated list is :

Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan
Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Harry Eto - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii (USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Thomas H. Makiyama - Keijutsukai, Japan (born in Hawaii), 8th Dan
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Walther von Krenner - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Lou Periello - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan

Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Michel Soulenq - Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA (Não é mais membro da organização) (*)
Robert Forrest-West – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, Aikikai (?), Germany, 7th Dan
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Aikikai(?), Italy, 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, Arizona(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
#########################################

Best regards
Ubaldo.

[Yamantaka]

Hello, All!

There has been another update on my list, thanks to my friend Jean-Marc Duclos, who remembered me of M'barek Alaoui, 7th Dan Aikikai.
So this is the update :
"Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan

Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Harry Eto - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii (USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Thomas H. Makiyama - Keijutsukai, Japan (born in Hawaii), 8th Dan
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Walther von Krenner - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Lou Periello - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan

Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Michel Soulenq - Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
M'barek Alaoui - Aikikai, Morocco, 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA (Não é mais membro da organização) (*)
Robert Forrest-West – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, Aikikai (?), Germany, 7th Dan
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Aikikai(?), Italy, 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, Arizona(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
#########################################

N.B. We're still waiting for confirmation on Giampietro Savegnago, André Cognar, Piero Suriano, Michel Soulenq and Gerhard Walther. Any help will be welcome.
Best regards
Ubaldo.
;)

[Yamantaka]

Hi, All!

We have two new updates for our non-japanese high-ranking Aikido yudansha List :

"Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan

Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Harry Eto - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii (USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Thomas H. Makiyama - Keijutsukai, Japan (born in Hawaii), 8th Dan
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Walther von Krenner - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Lou Periello - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan

Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 7th Dan

MICHEL SOULENQ - GCERCCE, France, 7th Dan(GCERCCE)/Aikikai 6th Dan

Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
M'barek Alaoui - Aikikai, Morocco, 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA (Não é mais membro da organização) (*)
Robert Forrest-West – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan

GERHARDT (GERD) WALTER, BDAS , Germany, 7th Dan (BDAS)/Aikikai 5th Dan

Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Aikikai(?), Italy, 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, Arizona(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
#########################################
As always, any help will be welcome!
Best

[Aozora]

I would like to add the following to the list.

L.F. Wilkinson, 7th dan, International Aikido Alliance
Mike Haygood, 7th dan, currently unaffiliated
Becky Sexton, IAA

I don't know if 6th dans count, but as far as accomplishments are concerned, few can live up to teaching aiblity, character development and personal touch that Sexton sensei has striven to maintain over the years. She is possibly one of the highest ranking female aikidoka in the country and as current head of the IAA, the only one to be in charge of an organization. As she is my sensei, I can attest to this personally.

:toast: ,
Neil

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Aozora
I would like to add the following to the list.
L.F. Wilkinson, 7th dan, International Aikido Alliance
Mike Haygood, 7th dan, currently unaffiliated
Becky Sexton, IAA

YAMANTAKA : Dear Neil,
Thank you very much for your interest. I would like to make some points clear :
a) I have reduced my list from 7th Dan up, for reasons easy to understand (the number of yudansha grows exponencially when you get down the rankings). I have some people that I do admire very much, such as William Gleason Sensei and Mary Heiny Sensei, but I restrained myself to 7th Dan; and
b) this list, as many other lists and bibliographies, is idiosyncratic. By that I mean that it represents my personal opinion. I do not include every martial artist from every organization but just the ones that I think, in my probably biased opinion, that do deserve it.
Saying that, you could help me very much if you send me further information on Wilkinson and Haygood Sensei (URL, who gave them their rank, et al...), so I can begin my research.
You're welcome :wave:
Best


I don't know if 6th dans count, but as far as accomplishments are concerned, few can live up to teaching aiblity, character development and personal touch that Sexton sensei has striven to maintain over the years. She is possibly one of the highest ranking female aikidoka in the country and as current head of the IAA, the only one to be in charge of an organization. As she is my sensei, I can attest to this personally.

:toast: ,
Neil :wave:

[Aozora]

Ok...

L.F. Wilkinson and Mike Haygood were both trained by Karl Geis. In fact, for a good while there, L.F. was geis sensei's primary uke and can be seen in a number of Fugakukai videos.

For reason I won't get into, he and Mike and a number of other sensei's broke away form that organization and formed the International Aikido Alliance, not to be confused with the International Aikido Association (which I have the utmost respect for, it's simply a different group). Your research can start at http://www.aikidoalliance.org.

BTW, if your list is strictly idiosyncratic (though I understand the need for limits) why have it in a public forum? ;)

[Karl Kuhn]

International Aikido Alliance, not to be confused with ..................

an international organization?

Karl

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Aozora

BTW, if your list is strictly idiosyncratic (though I understand the need for limits) why have it in a public forum? ;)

YAMANTAKA : For the same reason that you present your ideas in a public forum or you write a book with your ideas and present it to the public...(Open to criticisms and I've got a lot of that, believe me!) :smash:
By the way, thank you again for your cooperation!

[Rianard Jackson]

Some individuals are critical of others due to their limited personal history of that person. It is easy to make assumptions and state innuendoes without all of the facts. It goes with saying that Mr. Geis' reputation is impeccable. His name didn't just pop up recently. He is indeed a pioneer as well as an institution in martial arts world wide. Now I can understand that it's difficult to believe that one man has accomplished so much and has given back until it hurts. Of course if you aren't there with him, you have no way of knowing. You are on the outside looking in. I hope that you can understand when one assumes things, that this is very misleading. Their are other great pioneers in aikido. I may know little or nothing about them, nevertheless, I will not make derogatory statements about them. This is called respect. As a great philosopher once said "Come walk a mile in my shoes before you judge me".

Rianard Jackson

[Chuck Clark]

Greetings Rianard,

Welcome to the E-Budo group. Aaron just turned 30 a few days ago and has two daughters now! We speak of you often and remember good times.

Stop in the Jiyushinkan if you get out to the Phoenix/Tempe area, please.

With reference to your message, it still amazes me how many people make judgements without any real experience to base them on. Foolish stuff!

Take care,

[Karl Kuhn]

I am very interested in experiencing the Fugakukai method. The dojos seem to be only located in the american south, however. Are there chapters in the north that are not listed on their website?

Are there chapters in other countries? I am going back to Japan for a while in the fall and intend to visit a number of schools and would like add them to my list.

Are there seminars that are open to all aikidoka? Is there any sort of schedule for them?

I agree that seems to be some confusion regarding this organization and I look forward to the opportunity to work with them.

Cheers,

Karl Kuhn

[Rianard Jackson]

For additional information about Mr. Geis, please read his resume at http://www.karlgeis.com/resume.htm
These documents along with his many books and articles will answer your questions. He does not have to toot his own horn, their are plenty of others that willingly do this for him.

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Karl Kuhn
I am very interested in experiencing the Fugakukai method. I agree that seems to be some confusion regarding this organization and I look forward to the opportunity to work with them.
Cheers,
Karl Kuhn

YAMANTAKA : My best advice to you is to contact Geis Sensei. His e-mail is available at :
http://www.karlgeis.com/resume.htm
He's a very nice and educated person and I'm sure he'll try his best to answer your questions.
Best
:wave:

[Matthew Banks]

Originally posted by Yamantaka
Thanks to Greg, this is the last update to our list :

Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan
Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Harry Eto - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii (USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Walther von Krenner - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Lou Periello - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan

Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Michel Soulenq - Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA (Não é mais membro da organização) (*)
Robert Forrest-West – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, Aikikai (?), Germany, 7th Dan
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Aikikai(?), Italy, 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, Arizona(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
#########################################

I'm also waiting Peter Goldsbury confirmation on Gerhard Walther, from Germany.
Best

Hi Yamantaka,

T minus 9 days until im off to malaysia, and train with the second guy on that list.

Looking forward to it.

Ill try on post on the forum while im out there.

cheers

Matt Banks

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Matthew Banks
Hi Yamantaka,

T minus 9 days until im off to malaysia, and train with the second guy on that list.

YAMANTAKA : Have a nice trip and a very good keiko! :smash:


Ill try on post on the forum while im out there.

YAMANTAKA : Do that! ;)

[/B][/QUOTE]

[andreafuser]

Hi, I'm Andrea from Italy.I practice Iwama Ryu Aikido. In this list I don't see Paolo Corallini Shihan 7th Dan Iwama Ryu (given by Morihiro Saito Soke ) and 7th Dan Aikido (given by Dr. Matteo Pellicone the president of FJLKAM - C.O.N.I.). Paolo Corallin Shihna is the President and Technical Director of IWAMA RYU ITALY, an association responsible for the teaching and diffusion of Iwama Ryu Aikido in Italy. Since 1994 he has been the National Technical Consultant of F.I.L.P.J.K. for Aikido Section, and rappresent Morihiro Saito Soke in Europe.
It's possible add to the list?
Thanks
:)

For others informations visit Iwalmaryuitaly (http://www.iwamaryuitaly.org).

[Yamantaka]

Hello, Andrea! Thank for your information.
Corralini Sensei has been promoted very recently to th 7th Dan. I'll do some further checking and, sure, he's more than entitled to the List.
Best regards and good keiko

[Yamantaka]

Hello, Andrea! Congratulations for your anniversary!
I have already made some contacts and I got a surprise. I really didn't know but it seems that Saito Sensei has his own organization - IWAMA RYU TAKEMUSSU AIKIKAI - which gives rank independent from the Aikikai Hombu Dojo. But he still gives rank through Hombu and the Doshu.
So, could you tell me what organization gave Corralini Sensei his 7th Dan?
Best

[Yamantaka]

Hello, All!

This is the latest update on my high-ranking living non-japanese yudansha list. One member was retired (Harry Eto, who died recently) and 4 were included.
This is the present list :

Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan

Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Thomas H. Makiyama - Keijutsukai, Japan, 8th Dan (born in Hawaii)
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Walther von Krenner - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Lou Periello - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan

Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Michel Soulenq - Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
M'barek Alaoui - Aikikai, Morocco, 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA (Não é mais membro da organização) (*)
Robert Forrest-West – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, Aikikai (?), Germany, 7th Dan
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Aikikai(?), Italy, 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
Paolo Corralini - Iwama Ryu, Italy, 7th Dan
Jack Arnold - Birankai, USA, 7th Dan
Pablo Vasquez - Birankai, USA, 7th Dan
Nobuo Iseri - Birankai, USA, 7th Dan
#########################################
(1) More research should be done and more help is wanted on : Giampietro Savegnago, Michel Soulenq, André Cognar, Piero Suriano and Gerhard Walther. Any help will be welcome;
(2) No comparison is done between organizations and this list should not be interpreted this way.

[Yamantaka]

CORRECTION ACKNOWLED AND ACCEPTED

Dear fellow members,
STANLEY PRANIN wrote to me transmitting the following e-mails from Ms. LIESE KLEIN, representative of the Birankai and Chiba Shihan :

"Mr. Pranin,

I understand that you have lots of activity on the bulletin boards, but the main place this error is posted is in the "Aikido Organizations" folder, for which there is only one posting. This is an embarrassing error for all involved. Perhaps it would be appropriate for you personally to make a statement that lists of this type should confirmed before posting on such a visible forum.
Thank you for your time,
Liese Klein"

"Dear Mr. Pranin,
>>I am writing on behalf of T.K. Chiba Shihan at San Diego Aikikai.
>>In
>>several places on your bulletin boards you have listed erroneous
>>information about the rankings of three Birankai shihan--Vasquez,
>>Iseri
>>and Arnold. They are all 6th dan, not 7th Dan. Please correct this
>>information as soon as possible. In the future, when you post
>>anything on
>>Chiba Shihan or Birankai, please do us the courtesy of calling to
>>the dojo
>>to confirm the information at (619) 280-0082. Thank you for your
>>prompt
>>action on this.
>>Sincerely,
>>Liese Klein
>>San Diego Aikikai"

I quite understand Ms.Klein's posts and I would like to present my sincere excuses for my mistake.
A mistake is a mistake and no amount of explanation may correct it but, anyway, I would like to stress some points :
a)My list, as any human endeavor, is subject to mistakes and errors and as such I have permanently invited everyone to correct it;
b) I always do the best I can as to checking, rechecking and altering it, according to research done and input received;
c) in the case of Chiba Shihan, his separation from USAF/WR and the promotion of his students to Shihan level, as well as the possible promotion of his students to the 7th dan, I did my best to check those informations, as seen below :
(WHERE I GOT THE ORIGINAL INFORMATION) : http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Fo...TML/000609.html
(SOME RESEARCH AND THE INFORMATION I RECEIVED): http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Fo...TML/000633.html
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showt...hp?threadid=958
and
D) in the past, I have tried to contact USAF/WR and got no replies. I had no contact with Chiba Shihan's organization (the Birenkai) and so I was unable to get information from them. Now, that I have Liese Klein's contact, I hope she will contact me personally, giving me some e-mail to contact her on future opportunities.
Nonetheless, I acknowledge a mistake happened and apparently caused some sorrow to others. So, I would like to express also my sorrow for that and and atest my utmost expression of respect for Kazuo Chiba Shihan, the Birankai and everybody else involved.
With my very best regards
Ubaldo
P.S. Since the 3 men involved were not promoted to the 7th Dan, limit of my list, they have been deleted from it. This, in no way, may be construed to represent any demerit to them.
Best

[Yamantaka]

This is the updated format of my high-ranking non-japanese yudansha list :

"Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan

Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Thomas H. Makiyama - Keijutsukai, Japan, 8th Dan (born in Hawaii)
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Walther von Krenner - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Lou Periello - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan

Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Michel Soulenq - Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
M'barek Alaoui - Aikikai, Morocco, 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA (Não é mais membro da organização) (*)
Robert Forrest-West – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, Aikikai (?), Germany, 7th Dan
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Aikikai(?), Italy, 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
Paolo Corralini - Iwama Ryu, Italy, 7th Dan
#########################################
(1) More research should be done and more help is wanted on : Giampietro Savegnago, Michel Soulenq, André Cognar, Piero Suriano and Gerhard Walther. Any help will be welcome;
(2) No comparison is done between organizations and this list should not be interpreted this way.

[Yamantaka]

Dear friends,

The Yamantaka Hall of Fame brings to all of you his updated List of High-Ranking Non-Japanese Living Yudansha. As always, some points should be stressed :
a) this list represents the opinion of its creator and not necessarily the value of some of the organizations. Some of them are really very untrustsworthy but a few of their yudansha are worthy of our respect;
b) no comparison is intended between organizations;
c) corrections, aditions, suggestions and further information are encouraged; and
d) this list is in a continuous state of update.
And the list is :

Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan

Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan

Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Thomas H. Makiyama - Keijutsukai, Japan, 8th Dan (born in Hawaii)
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Walther von Krenner - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Lou Periello - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan
André Cognar Sensei – France, Bu Iku Kai 8th Dan

Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Michel Soulenq - GCERCCE, France, 7th Dan /Aikikai, 6th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
M'barek Alaoui - Aikikai, Morocco, 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Robert Forest-Webb – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan JAA/BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Haydn Foster – Institute of Aikido, England, 7th Dan
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, BDAS 7th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan, Germany
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan/Aikikai 6th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Italy, AIA 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
Paolo Corralini - Iwama Ryu, Italy, 7th Dan
André Fredrix – Belgium, IMAF 7th Dan
Luciano Paterna – Italy, IMAF 7th Dan
Piero Suriano – Italy, Bu Iku Kai 7th Dan
#########################################

Any feedback? :look:

[Yamantaka]

Hello!

I forgot to include another sensei in my list :
ULF EVENAS - Iwama Ryu, Sweden, 7th Dan.
Sorry, Iwama Guys! ;)

[Yamantaka]

Hi!

Further additions to the list :
Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan

Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan

Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Thomas H. Makiyama - Keijutsukai, Japan, 8th Dan (born in Hawaii)
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Walther von Krenner - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Lou Periello - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan
André Cognar Sensei – France, Bu Iku Kai 8th Dan

Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Michel Soulenq - GCERCCE, France, 7th Dan /Aikikai, 6th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
M'barek Alaoui - Aikikai, Morocco, 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Robert Forest-Webb – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan JAA/BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Haydn Foster – Institute of Aikido, England, 7th Dan
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, BDAS 7th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan, Germany
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan/Aikikai 6th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Italy, AIA 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
Paolo Corralini - Iwama Ryu, Italy, 7th Dan
André Fredrix – Belgium, IMAF 7th Dan
Luciano Paterna – Italy, IMAF 7th Dan
Piero Suriano – Italy, Bu Iku Kai 7th Dan
Ulf Evenas - Sweden, Iwama Ryu, 7th Dan
L.F. Wilkinson - Texas(USA), IAA, 7th Dan
#########################################

Help, anyone? :look:

[Yamantaka]

Thanks to Jim Baker Sensei (of Antarctica Aikikai fame...), I have put a new addition to our high-ranking aikido list :
EDDIE HAGIHARA - USAF/ER - 7th Dan Aikikai
Thank you, Jim! :wave:

[Yamantaka]

Dear friends,

We have a new addition to our list : GWYNNE JONES, from England, 7th Dan Shingitai.
The list now stands :

Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan

Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan

Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Thomas H. Makiyama - Keijutsukai, Japan, 8th Dan (born in Hawaii)
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Walther von Krenner - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Lou Periello - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan
André Cognar Sensei – France, Bu Iku Kai 8th Dan

Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Michel Soulenq - GCERCCE, France, 7th Dan /Aikikai, 6th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Eddie Hagihara - Aikikai, USA, 7th Dan
M'barek Alaoui - Aikikai, Morocco, 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Robert Forest-Webb – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan JAA/BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Haydn Foster – Institute of Aikido, England, 7th Dan
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, BDAS 7th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan, Germany
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan/Aikikai 6th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Italy, AIA 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
Paolo Corralini - Iwama Ryu, Italy, 7th Dan
André Fredrix – Belgium, IMAF 7th Dan
Luciano Paterna – Italy, IMAF 7th Dan
Piero Suriano – Italy, Bu Iku Kai 7th Dan
Ulf Evenas - Sweden, Iwama Ryu, 7th Dan
L.F. Wilkinson - Texas(USA), IAA, 7th Dan
Gwynne Jones - England, Shingitai, 7th Dan
#########################################

As always, commentaries are welcome
Best

[Dennis Hooker]

Now how about braking them out by organization. I am sorry, but I believe one size does not fit all. Listing some people I respect very much with others that can’t carry their obi is a little misleading to the uninitiated of the world. Stan Pranin in his book did not make a list, which in of its self implies ranking and pre-eminence of one person over the next in a numerical order. If you’re going to do this then it should be done by organization. Then a since of standing can be obtained without unfair and ambiguous comparisons. It may not be your intent to make comparisons, but presenting a list in this manner presupposes accredited standing and places one person over another.


Dennis Hooker
www.shindai.com
ASU, IAF

[Yamantaka]

Dear friends,

I have the utmost respect for Dennis Hooker Shihan and the suggestion he presented has some points to consider. What everybody thinks? Even if our list stresses non-comparison between organizations, should we separate the members by organization, so that we may clearly stress that part or, the simple fact that their organization is mentioned with their rank IS suficient?
And Hooker Sama, if you wish, could you send a PM to me and point out whose teachers do you consider "below standards", so we may discuss those points and, if necessary, exclude them from our list?
Best regards and thanks for your interest :wave:

[Dennis Hooker]

Thank you for your consideration of my request. I have personal intolerance toward certain of the people on the list and although I make innuendo as to their ability I won’t go so far as to prejudice others towards them. I will say that a nidan candidate at my dojo was ask to retest in the future, so he quit the dojo opened his own and was sold a godan certificate by one of the people on the list. Now this is a matter between them, but I cared and continue to care for that person and I feel he was done a great injustice by this and shall never know the pleasure of earning that degree. Not to mention the misinformation his students receive as a result of this. I believe this is a case of one person needing guidance and another wanting money. I hold no ill feelings toward the student for this but to his ill advised new sempi.


I believe you will see the Aikikai has no one above 7th dan on the list. Many of the 6th and 7th dan Aikikai, IAF instructors have years more experience and are sempi to some of those who appear to be more qualified based on rank alone. I am not so much concerned about the people on e-budo, but those off site people that may misread such a grouping and make, as is so often the case, a judgment call based on rank alone.

Please just call me Dennis and forget the honorifics, I think we know one another well enough to do that.

[Greg Jennings]

>> Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan/Aikikai 6th Dan

I believe the above listing is incorrect.

If this is the Kevin Blok I think it is, he is _not_ affiliated with the Aikikai.

A quick http://www.google.com/ search brings up his personal web site.

Regards,

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Greg Jennings
>> Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan/Aikikai 6th Dan
I believe the above listing is incorrect.
If this is the Kevin Blok I think it is, he is _not_ affiliated with the Aikikai.
Regards,

YAMANTAKA : The last information I got Kevin Blok belongs to the two organizations with different ranking. He will be present at the Aiki Expo 2002, promoted by Stanley Pranin and his grading from the Aikikai is also cited there (www.aikidojournal.com)
This happens with other people, members of more than one organization. An example is Lou Periello Sensei, Aikikai's 5th Dan, who is an 8th Dan in another organization. That, of course, does not mean a comparison between organizations. After all, they belong to both.
Best regards

[Yamantaka]

Dear Dennis,


Originally posted by Dennis Hooker
I believe you will see the Aikikai has no one above 7th dan on the list. Many of the 6th and 7th dan Aikikai, IAF instructors have years more experience and are sempi to some of those who appear to be more qualified based on rank alone. I am not so much concerned about the people on e-budo, but those off site people that may misread such a grouping and make, as is so often the case, a judgment call based on rank alone.

YAMANTAKA : Let me stress again that I do not make comparisons between organization. This observation is always present when I place my list on the Web, here and elsewhere. Also I place very clearly, besides the name of each inductee their rank and THEIR ORGANIZATION. That coupled with the observation "NO COMPARISON" should be sufficient. But your advice is being pondered. I really wished to have more opinions from other people here.
Another point I would like to stress is about the level of dan gradings. We have organizations that grade up to 6th Dan; to 7th Dan (Tomiki); to 8th Dan; and up. That is the problem with organizations. There's no common ground for comparisons. A 7th Dan in Tomiki may be the equivalent to an 8th or a 9th Dan Aikikai. That means nothing to me, since I don't believe in organizations but in people. I know a 3rd Dan whom I consider equal to most 6th Dan but my intention was to present a list of high-ranking non-japanese aikido yudansha, from 7th Dan on up, so I couldn't include him, even if I think he deserves it. I know Shodan who are better than most 3rd or 4th Dan and some 8th Dan whom I don't like at all (but they are internationally respected, so I included them...)
Whatever I did, I would be criticized, so I created my list. That's not to say that it isn't subject to change. Let's see what other people think about your suggestion. For myself, I think it's reasonable.


Originally posted by Dennis Hooker
Please just call me Dennis and forget the honorifics, I think we know one another well enough to do that.

YAMANTAKA : Thank you, my friend! All happiness to you!
Best:wave:

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Greg Jennings
If this is the Kevin Blok I think it is, he is _not_ affiliated with the Aikikai.

YAMANTAKA : Ouch! Another shot on my foot! As you see, Greg San, I'm not perfect, far from it. Your observation made me do a quick check and you're absolutely RIGHT!
Kevin Blok Sensei isn't and ever was Aikikai. He is a 6th Dan YOSHINKAI and also ranked by the World Kobudo Federation (he belongs to both organizations).
Thank you very much for correcting me
Best:wave:

[Yamantaka]

Greg Jennings called my attention to a mistake I have made, concerning Kevin Blok Sensei. Blok Sensei is not ranked in the Aikikai but in the Yoshinkai, as well as in the World Kobudo Federation.
The list correctec now is :


Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan

Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan

Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Thomas H. Makiyama - Keijutsukai, Japan, 8th Dan (born in Hawaii)
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Walther von Krenner - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Lou Periello - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan
André Cognar Sensei – France, Bu Iku Kai 8th Dan

Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Michel Soulenq - GCERCCE, France, 7th Dan /Aikikai, 6th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Eddie Hagihara - Aikikai, USA, 7th Dan
M'barek Alaoui - Aikikai, Morocco, 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Robert Forest-Webb – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan JAA/BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Haydn Foster – Institute of Aikido, England, 7th Dan
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, BDAS 7th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan, Germany
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan/Yoshinkai 6th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Italy, AIA 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
Paolo Corralini - Iwama Ryu, Italy, 7th Dan
André Fredrix – Belgium, IMAF 7th Dan
Luciano Paterna – Italy, IMAF 7th Dan
Piero Suriano – Italy, Bu Iku Kai 7th Dan
Ulf Evenas - Sweden, Iwama Ryu, 7th Dan
L.F. Wilkinson - Texas(USA), IAA, 7th Dan
Gwynne Jones - England, Shingitai, 7th Dan

I'd like to point out, one more time, that this list makes no comparisons between organizations or grades (some styles rank until 6th Dan, others up to 7th, 8th or 9th Dan and, finally, some until the 10 th Dan).
But since this is a work in progress, every help, information, discordance, etc..., will be very welcome.
Best

[Dennis Hooker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yamantaka
[B]Dear Dennis,


Perhaps a random sorting, or listing by name would serve as well. Regardless of intent, listing the individuals from highest to lowest dan rank indicates status.

Dennis

YAMANTAKA : Let me stress again that I do not make comparisons between organization. This observation is always present when I place my list on the Web, here and elsewhere. Also I place very clearly, besides the name of each inductee their rank and THEIR ORGANIZATION. That coupled with the observation "NO COMPARISON" should be sufficient. But your advice is being pondered. I really wished to have more opinions from other people here.

[Joseph Svinth]

Ubaldo --

If you like Dennis' suggestion, then I'd vote for listing alphabetically by surname. Sure, a purely random shuffle is possible, but then it becomes difficult to see if so-and-so is listed, which presumably is one purpose of such a listing.

[Jack B]

For years I kept up a list very much like this for all 6 dan and higher in the US (including Japanese). I kept it separated by organization since it made the context more visible.

Jack Bieler
Denton, Texas

[Mike Collins]

Ubaldo,

Maybe you could list them:

alphabetically by surname
then
according to rank
then
by age
then
by organization
then
according to the age of their primary teacher/shihan
then


Oh hell, nevermind. Just keep it like it is.
Or don't:D

[Joseph Svinth]

Hey, how about sorting by how much they charge students for shodan promotions? I think that would be a hoot.

[Dennis Hooker]

This may be a cause for joking and levity, and perhaps even ridicule for someone who sees things differently. . What the hell, everyone has a right to see humor in whatever tickles their wit. However, I know many people on this list, and I know how hard some have worked and the dues they paid to get where they are. Then I see others that display greater rank of their own creation, or issued from dubious organization, which they helped to create. This is not to say that all independent organization are dubious. They certainly are not, and some of their leaders should be more highly ranked in my opinion.

What differences does all this make and why should I care? I can tell you I am not the only one of rank and seniority (6dan ASU, Aikikai, IAF and over 35 years of training) who has a problem with this. However, I am one willing to take criticism on this issue. What difference is there in a Ph.D. from an accreted University and one from a mail order collage? Perhaps for someone who knows nothing of Accreted Universities or mail order Ph.D. Programs, there is no difference. There in lies the danger. Why should I be so obstinate on this topic when others see it as only a source of amusement? I don’t really know other than to say I’m form the old school where it is common for one to pay ones dues before accepting the honors and accolades of position, rank and seniority. I see flaws in this list as it currently exists that short circuit that process. If you say rank don’t really mean anything anyway then why the hell are you looking at this list, and why do any of us accept it?

This will be my last post on this issue. If someone wishes to communicate with me on this issue please lets do it off line at shindai@hotmail.com

[Karl Kuhn]

I would also like to state that I am concerned that the list, published as it is, presents serious problems. I would encourage a different way of ordering those included.

Cheers,
Karl

ps. For what it's worth, Shodokan Aikido currently grades to 8th dan as that was the rank issued to Prof. Tomiki by Ueshiba. I believe this is done out of deference to Tomiki and Ueshiba and is not written out in any formal way. I post this because it was mentioned that a "Tomiki" group grades to 7th dan and thought it was important to clarify that within the organization Tomiki created this is not the case.

[Yamantaka]

Please, Yamantaka needs your help!
How should I present my list of high-ranked aikidoka?
AS IT IS ..........................1 vote
In alphabetical order.......3 votes

I hope you may help me

[Yamantaka]

By suggestion of DENNIS HOOKER and after some consulting, I have changed the format of my High-Ranking non-Japanese Yudansha List.
It's now ordered alphabetically, by organization and inductee. It should be stressed that no comparison can be made between gradings in different organizations (some grade to the 8th Dan, some at lesser dan and the criteria are different).
Hope it will avoid some pitfalls we've encountered so far.
########################################

AIKIKAI :

Alaoui, M'barek - Aikikai, Morocco, 7th Dan
Aoyagi, Robert - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Blaize, Gerard – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Doran, Frank - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Hagihara, Eddie - Aikikai, USA, 7th Dan
Hirao, Richard - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Konigsberg, Harvey – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Kubo, Robert – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Moriyama, Donald - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Nadeau, Robert - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Seagal, Steven - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Tissier, Christian – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Witt, William - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan

ASSOCIAZIONE ITALIANA DI AIKIDO (AIA) :
Savegnago, Giampietro - Italy, AIA 7th Dan

BDAS:

Walter, Gerhardt - BDAS 7th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan, Germany

BU IKU KAI :

Cognar, André – France, Bu Iku Kai 8th Dan
Suriano, Piero – Italy, Bu Iku Kai 7th Dan

DAÍ NIPPON BUTOKUKAI :

Stobbaerts, Georges – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan

DEUTSCHE AIKIDO BUND (DAB) :

Altenbrandt, Erhard - DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Brand, Rolf - DAB, Germany, 7th Dan

FUGAKUKAI :

Allen, John - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Caldwell, Charles - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Copeland, Henry - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Geis, Karl - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Jackson, Rianard - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Joe, Tim - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Norgaard, Clif - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Wright, Harry - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan

GCERCCE :

Soulenq, Michel - GCERCCE, France, 7th Dan /Aikikai, 6th Dan

INSTITUTE OF AIKIDO :
Foster, Haydn – Institute of Aikido, England, 7th Dan

INTERNATIONAL AIKIDO ASSOCIATION :
Wilkinson, L.F. - Texas(USA), IAA, 7th Dan

INTERNATIONAL MARTIAL ARTS FEDERATION (IMAF) :

Fredrix, André – Belgium, IMAF 7th Dan
Paterna, Luciano – Italy, IMAF 7th Dan

IWAMA RYU :

Corralini, Paolo - Iwama Ryu, Italy, 7th Dan
Evenas, Ulf - Sweden, Iwama Ryu, 7th Dan

JIYUSHINKAI :
Clark, Chuck - Jiyushinkai, USA, 8th Dan

KEIJUTSUKAI :

Makiyama, Thomas H. - Keijutsukai, Japan, 8th Dan (born in Hawaii)

KI-AIKIDO :

Curtis, Christopher – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Nonaka, Takashi – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Suzuki, Shinichi – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan

SEIDOKAN :

Chan, Stewart - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan

SHINGITAI :

Jones, Gwynne - England, Shingitai, 7th Dan


SHODOKAN (TOMIKI) :

Eustace, Brian – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Forest-Webb, Robert – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan JAA/BAA
Lawrence, William – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Lee, Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
Waite, John – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA

SHUDOKAN (Malaysia) :

Rajah, Thamby - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan

UNITED STATES MARTIAL ARTS ASSOCIATION (USMAA) :

Krenner, Walther von - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Periello, Lou - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan

WORLD KOBUDO FEDERATION :
Blok, Kevin - World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan/Yoshinkai 6th Dan

YOSEIKAN
Augé, Patrick - Yoseikan, USA, 7th Dan
Floquet, Alain - Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan

YOSHINKAN
Parker, Amos - Yoshinkan, USA, 8th Dan
##############################
###############

As always, any help will be unvaluable
Best

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Karl Kuhn
For what it's worth, Shodokan Aikido currently grades to 8th dan as that was the rank issued to Prof. Tomiki by Ueshiba. I believe this is done out of deference to Tomiki and Ueshiba and is not written out in any formal way. I post this because it was mentioned that a "Tomiki" group grades to 7th dan and thought it was important to clarify that within the organization Tomiki created this is not the case.

YAMANTAKA : I believe 8th Dan is the highest grade in Tomiki Aikido. In that case, such a person could only grade to 6th Dan, if I'm not mistaken or perhaps 7th Dan, at the very much. Presently, is there any 8th Dan? More than one? And what is the case "within the organization Tomiki created"? (are there other TOMIKI organizations?)
I really would like to understand
Best regards

[Steven Miranda]

Ubaldo,
You left off Amos Lee Parker. Any paticular reason other than a senior moment? :D

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Steven Miranda
Ubaldo,
You left off Amos Lee Parker. Any paticular reason other than a senior moment? :D

YAMANTAKA : (Steven San, you're despicable!! :redhot: )
All right! The more I try to be exact, the more I make mistakes...It must be my dotage...:eek:
Very well, Bad Man, I'll make the necessary corrections (And by the way, it was not just Parker Shihan - that would've been most bad - but also the Yoseikan guys).
Thank you for the correction, Steven! You were very helpful!
Best:wave:

[Jack B]

Originally posted by Yamantaka

YAMANTAKA : I believe 8th Dan is the highest grade in Tomiki Aikido. In that case, such a person could only grade to 6th Dan, if I'm not mistaken or perhaps 7th Dan, at the very much. Presently, is there any 8th Dan? More than one? And what is the case "within the organization Tomiki created"? (are there other TOMIKI organizations?)
I really would like to understand
Best regards
According to the Shodokan web site, Ohba sensei was awarded 9th dan Aikido by Tomiki shihan. What "rank" would be assumed for Tomiki to allow him to do this is a matter of speculation and probably moot. I believe it has been stated that currently Shodokan aikido does not award higher than 8th dan. There are at least two 8th dan in the Japan Aikido Association, being Kogure (president) and Nariyama (technical director).

The phrase "organization Tomiki created" refers to either the JAA or Shodokan Aikido, Shodokan being the hombu dojo he founded. I do not know the political differentiation, if any, between JAA and Shodokan. There are several other "Tomiki style" organizations, including Fugakukai, Jiyushinkai, IAA, NAA and probably others. These groups parted from the JAA years ago, and some of the branches now have branches. According to the Shodokan aikido website, Tomiki sensei never wanted his system of training to bear his name. Despite this, the JAA was known as "Tomiki Aikido" for decades. Some organizations no longer claim to be purely "Tomiki" style, but have enhanced the training syllabus with other sources. There are also British groups that call themselves "Tomiki and Traditional" and apparently merge the two training paradigms.

You may be referring to the old tradition that the founder of an organization is two ranks higher than the next highest rank. This came from Judo where Kano was considered defacto 12th dan since there were several 10th dans. Kano actually refused the rank and said he would keep creating higher ranks until they got tired of "promoting" him. This is what makes me wonder if Tomiki must have been considered defacto 10th or 11th dan when he promoted Ohba to 9th dan. I have seen Tomiki shihan listed as 8th dan or 9th dan, depending on the source.

I hope this helps answer your questions.

Jack Bieler
Hurst, Texas

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Jack B
I hope this helps answer your questions.
Jack Bieler
Hurst, Texas

YAMANTAKA : It does, at least in part. Thank you, Jack B.!
Anyone else?
Best

[Yamantaka]

Hello, All!

We've made a change in our List.
ALAIN FLOQUET, of France, had his art's name changed from Yoseikan to Aikibudo.
The List now goes :

AIKIBUDO :

Floquet, Alain - Aikibudo, France, 8th Dan

AIKIKAI :

Alaoui, M'barek - Aikikai, Morocco, 7th Dan
Aoyagi, Robert - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Blaize, Gerard – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Doran, Frank - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Hagihara, Eddie - Aikikai, USA, 7th Dan
Hirao, Richard - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Konigsberg, Harvey – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Kubo, Robert – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Moriyama, Donald - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Nadeau, Robert - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Seagal, Steven - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Tissier, Christian – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Witt, William - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan

ASSOCIAZIONE ITALIANA DI AIKIDO (AIA) :
Savegnago, Giampietro - Italy, AIA 7th Dan

BDAS:

Walter, Gerhardt - BDAS 7th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan, Germany

BU IKU KAI :

Cognar, André – France, Bu Iku Kai 8th Dan
Suriano, Piero – Italy, Bu Iku Kai 7th Dan

DAÍ NIPPON BUTOKUKAI :

Stobbaerts, Georges – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan

DEUTSCHE AIKIDO BUND (DAB) :

Altenbrandt, Erhard - DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Brand, Rolf - DAB, Germany, 7th Dan

FUGAKUKAI :

Allen, John - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Caldwell, Charles - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Copeland, Henry - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Geis, Karl - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Jackson, Rianard - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Joe, Tim - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Norgaard, Clif - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Wright, Harry - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan

GCERCCE :

Soulenq, Michel - GCERCCE, France, 7th Dan /Aikikai, 6th Dan

INSTITUTE OF AIKIDO :
Foster, Haydn – Institute of Aikido, England, 7th Dan

INTERNATIONAL AIKIDO ASSOCIATION :
Wilkinson, L.F. - Texas(USA), IAA, 7th Dan

INTERNATIONAL MARTIAL ARTS FEDERATION (IMAF) :

Fredrix, André – Belgium, IMAF 7th Dan
Paterna, Luciano – Italy, IMAF 7th Dan

IWAMA RYU :

Corralini, Paolo - Iwama Ryu, Italy, 7th Dan
Evenas, Ulf - Sweden, Iwama Ryu, 7th Dan

JIYUSHINKAI :
Clark, Chuck - Jiyushinkai, USA, 8th Dan

KEIJUTSUKAI :

Makiyama, Thomas H. - Keijutsukai, Japan, 8th Dan (born in Hawaii)

KI-AIKIDO :

Curtis, Christopher – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Nonaka, Takashi – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Suzuki, Shinichi – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan

SEIDOKAN :

Chan, Stewart - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan

SHINGITAI :

Jones, Gwynne - England, Shingitai, 7th Dan


SHODOKAN (TOMIKI) :

Eustace, Brian – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Forest-Webb, Robert – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan JAA/BAA
Lawrence, William – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Lee, Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
Waite, John – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA

SHUDOKAN (Malaysia) :

Rajah, Thamby - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan

UNITED STATES MARTIAL ARTS ASSOCIATION (USMAA) :

Krenner, Walther von - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Periello, Lou - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan

WORLD KOBUDO FEDERATION :
Blok, Kevin - World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan/Yoshinkai 6th Dan

YOSEIKAN
Augé, Patrick - Yoseikan, USA, 7th Dan

YOSHINKAN
Parker, Amos - Yoshinkan, USA, 8th Dan
##############################
###############

[Yamantaka]

JOHN C.ALLEN became independent and is no longer a member of the Fugakukai.
The list now goes :

AIKIBUDO :

Floquet, Alain - Aikibudo, France, 8th Dan

AIKIKAI :

Alaoui, M'barek - Aikikai, Morocco, 7th Dan
Aoyagi, Robert - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Blaize, Gerard – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Doran, Frank - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Hagihara, Eddie - Aikikai, USA, 7th Dan
Hirao, Richard - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Konigsberg, Harvey – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Kubo, Robert – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Moriyama, Donald - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Nadeau, Robert - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Seagal, Steven - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Tissier, Christian – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Witt, William - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan

ASSOCIAZIONE ITALIANA DI AIKIDO (AIA) :
Savegnago, Giampietro - Italy, AIA 7th Dan

BDAS:

Walter, Gerhardt - BDAS 7th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan, Germany

BU IKU KAI :

Cognar, André – France, Bu Iku Kai 8th Dan
Suriano, Piero – Italy, Bu Iku Kai 7th Dan

DAÍ NIPPON BUTOKUKAI :

Stobbaerts, Georges – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan

DEUTSCHE AIKIDO BUND (DAB) :

Altenbrandt, Erhard - DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Brand, Rolf - DAB, Germany, 7th Dan

FUGAKUKAI :

Caldwell, Charles - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Copeland, Henry - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Geis, Karl - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Jackson, Rianard - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Joe, Tim - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Norgaard, Clif - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Wright, Harry - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan

GCERCCE :

Soulenq, Michel - GCERCCE, France, 7th Dan /Aikikai, 6th Dan

INDEPENDENT :

Allen, John C. - Independent, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan


INSTITUTE OF AIKIDO :
Foster, Haydn – Institute of Aikido, England, 7th Dan

INTERNATIONAL AIKIDO ASSOCIATION :
Wilkinson, L.F. - Texas(USA), IAA, 7th Dan

INTERNATIONAL MARTIAL ARTS FEDERATION (IMAF) :

Fredrix, André – Belgium, IMAF 7th Dan
Paterna, Luciano – Italy, IMAF 7th Dan

IWAMA RYU :

Corralini, Paolo - Iwama Ryu, Italy, 7th Dan
Evenas, Ulf - Sweden, Iwama Ryu, 7th Dan

JIYUSHINKAI :
Clark, Chuck - Jiyushinkai, USA, 8th Dan

KEIJUTSUKAI :

Makiyama, Thomas H. - Keijutsukai, Japan, 8th Dan (born in Hawaii)

KI-AIKIDO :

Curtis, Christopher – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Nonaka, Takashi – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Suzuki, Shinichi – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan

SEIDOKAN :

Chan, Stewart - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan

SHINGITAI :

Jones, Gwynne - England, Shingitai, 7th Dan


SHODOKAN (TOMIKI) :

Eustace, Brian – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Forest-Webb, Robert – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan JAA/BAA
Lawrence, William – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Lee, Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
Waite, John – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA

SHUDOKAN (Malaysia) :

Rajah, Thamby - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan

UNITED STATES MARTIAL ARTS ASSOCIATION (USMAA) :

Krenner, Walther von - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Periello, Lou - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan

WORLD KOBUDO FEDERATION :
Blok, Kevin - World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan/Yoshinkai 6th Dan

YOSEIKAN
Augé, Patrick - Yoseikan, USA, 7th Dan

YOSHINKAN
Parker, Amos - Yoshinkan, USA, 8th Dan
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