Juho principles

[Rob Gassin]

In a discussion between a few senior kenshi recently, many agreed that Shorinji Kempo juho was more complex to learn that similar 'soft' techniques in other arts. My view was that it was only so because of the way it is taught and that in fact shorinji kempo juho is based on only a few commonsense principles, which are relatively easy to learn. In fact, there are more similarities than differences between techniques.

What to you see as the basic principles of juho and how do you convey these principles to minerai?

[Flintstone]

[...] many agreed that Shorinji Kempo juho was more complex to learn that similar 'soft' techniques in other arts.
Yes. I'm sure... :S

[Panu Suominen]

If principles of Shorinji Kempo are hard there is big possibility that I have no clue about them. But I have not seen many different in the principles compared to other arts. Difference is in the ways of practice and the ways to use those principles. I think these common principles are the same than in basic mechanics with additionally some reflexology, anatomy and psychology.

I don't think the principles itself are hard to teach. Many times it just does not seem to make any difference to explain the principles behind the techniques. The problem is that ability to use those principles comes only after lots of practice so just knowing them does not help.

[Rob Gassin]

Yes. I'm sure... :S

Just to clarify Alejandro, I do not think that SK techniques are any more complex that that of other styles, it's just that some SK instructors are obsessed with giving too much detail when teaching beginners, thus making techniques seem much more complex than they really are. In my view, SK techniques can be distilled down to a few basic principles. If these are taught, the technique will work in 75 -80% of cases, the rest of the details is merely the icing on the cake that makes it work against the remaining 20-25% of people. This icing on the cake can be learnt later once the kenshi are confident with the basic principles.

BTW, our discussion group included a Japanese 3rd dan Aikido (SK beginner) and a 2nd dan Hapkido (2nd dan SK) and a green belt BJJ (3rd dan SK)

Cheers,

[PeterL]

In a discussion between a few senior kenshi recently, many agreed that Shorinji Kempo juho was more complex to learn that similar 'soft' techniques in other arts. My view was that it was only so because of the way it is taught and that in fact shorinji kempo juho is based on only a few commonsense principles, which are relatively easy to learn. In fact, there are more similarities than differences between techniques.

What to you see as the basic principles of juho and how do you convey these principles to minerai?

Hi ROb

Another good thread... you are on a roll.

Actually, I agree with

in fact shorinji kempo juho is based on only a few commonsense principles, which are relatively easy to learn

but not with


Shorinji Kempo juho was more complex to learn that similar 'soft' techniques in other arts [...] because of the way it is taught

My learning experience with SK juho has been very much the opposite. If anything, I hear more about how simple it is. One thing my sensei emphasizes with me is how much alike the "new" juho is to the "old" (what I have studied) juho. Something like, look it is nothing new, it is the same as this but the angle is different, etc...

[johan_frendin]

Gassho!

I agree that many instructors included myself sometimes give too much detail when teaching beginners.

But their are more components that makes Shorinjikempo juho more difficult to learn than other MA.

1. Shorinjikempo grading are slow.
If you follow the curriculum it takes at least a couple of years to learn the basic pinciples of Shorinjikempo. In other MA you can becom swedish champion in the same amount if time.

2. In Shorinjikempo you learn techniques not principles.
In many MA you learn principles and can adopt them very fast according to your own personal preferences. Learning techniques rather than principles slows down progress and makes it more difficult to lean juho in Shorinjikempo than other MA.

Johan Frendin

[Rob Gassin]

2. In Shorinjikempo you learn techniques not principles.
In many MA you learn principles and can adopt them very fast according to your own personal preferences. Learning techniques rather than principles slows down progress and makes it more difficult to lean juho in Shorinjikempo than other MA.

Johan Frendin

My point exactly. The reason i started this thread is because my impression, during my last visit to Hombu was that this was changing and there was more emphasis on teaching principles and focusing on commonalities between techniques. This helped me tremendously and consequently my juho has improved out of sight.

Has any one else noticed this change in emphasis, or is it just my imagination?
Cheers, Rob

[johan_frendin]

Gassho!


First you can train on the basis of techniques – Uchi uke zuki, uchi uke geri, ryusui geri etc.


Second you can train on the basis of technique group – Nio ken, sango ken, ryuo ken etc.


Third you can train on the basis of principles - ?


……..but what are the principles of Shorinjikempo juho?

Johan Frendin

[bu-kusa]

BTW, our discussion group included a Japanese 3rd dan Aikido (SK beginner) and a 2nd dan Hapkido (2nd dan SK) and a green belt BJJ (3rd dan SK)


I dont mean to hijack, But GREEN belt BJJ? a 3rd dan SK? A green belt is only used for ages 13 to 15 year old? I didn't think SK would be giving Sandan grades to juniors?

[Rob Gassin]

GREEN belt BJJ? a 3rd dan SK? A green belt is only used for ages 13 to 15 year old? I didn't think SK would be giving Sandan grades to juniors?

He is 55yo, certainly not a junior. He's done BJJ for approximately 3-4 years. Firstly, it may be that belt colours vary from club to club (as it does for kyu kenshi from one Federation to anotherin SK). Secondly, i may have got the colour wrong. The underlyng message remains the same, he is at a midlevel Kyu (or whatever BJJ practitiones call it) level in BJJ.

[bu-kusa]

He is 55yo, certainly not a junior. He's done BJJ for approximately 3-4 years. Firstly, it may be that belt colours vary from club to club (as it does for kyu kenshi from one Federation to anotherin SK). Secondly, i may have got the colour wrong. The underlyng message remains the same, he is at a midlevel Kyu (or whatever BJJ practitiones call it) level in BJJ.

Thanks for clearing that up! Sorrry to derail the conversation.

[Rob Gassin]

Thanks for clearing that up! Sorrry to derail the conversation.

A little transgression:

I asked him today, in fact he's a blue belt. Funnily, I asked him if there is a green belt in his style of BJJ. He doesn't know as he is completely (black and white) colour blind - he has been told his belt is blue. He could not tell me the colours to black.

Interestingly however, he told me there is no grading. Belts are given when the instructor thinks you're ready.

Back on topic now

[Indar]

What to you see as the basic principles of juho and how do you convey these principles to minerai?

Another good question, addressing the cutting edge issues of SK and deserving a considered response.

Having trained with people having a lot of physical strength who are very difficult to do juho on, my own opinion would be that juho has to be backed by goho/atemi. How to teach this is difficult; if I can give an example:

gyaku gote can be hard to execute on some-one who has a strong grip. One approach would be to use atemi, e.g. kinteki geri or a head butt (don't know the technical term), before applying the technique. Can be difficult to practise in the dojo.

Technically, the correct atemi is mei-uchi, but I'm not convinced that this is always effective in reality.

We are taught that juho relies on pain and balance. Applying pain depends on the mental/physical condition of the opponent. Taking the balance depends on physical dynamics. So juho techniques have to be practiced dynamically, with the attacker applied a determined attack; not just grabbing and holding statically.

So generally, I think that you are right; many SK instructors talk too much. :)

But, the logic talk is a bit too dominant. More fundamental techniques, repeated over and over within free play, doing it so that people can really use the techniques, that's what I like.

http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/instructor/aosakass.html


And, of course, you have to want to put your opponent on the floor. Since we are nice people, this can be a difficult mindset to attain, but fundamental for anyone practising budo.

[johan_frendin]

Gassho!

In my previous post I stated a question what are the principles of Shorinjikempo? During my 25 years in Shorinjikempo I have stumbled on quite a few from different instructors. Sometimes I have wondered what the "core" of principles of Shorinjikempo really is? This is because they are quite a few!
Let me try to explain.

Firstly
In general there are really three primary types of taking a human being to the ground in all martial arts:

throws or takedown that controls an opponents legs while moving his upper torso


throws or takedown that controls an opponent’s torso while moving his legs


throws or takedown when you sacrifice your own balance in order to throw or take the opponent to the ground.


As I understand it the first one is the principle Shorinjikempo uses in 98 % of its juho techniques.

This is great! Only one principle to follow!:)

Secondly
Many instructors use the method of kuzushi – otoshi – hazushi

10543

Thirdly
Many instructors explain that kuzushi could or should be done in 6 directions.

Fourthly
In addition to the above stated principles there are principles of bending an arm or the fingers:


Gyaku gote principle
Okuri gote principle
Kiri gote principle
Johaku dori principle
Kannuki principle
Kiri keashi gote principle
Konoha principle
etc.


Fifthly
There are further more principles explained by Shorinjikempo instructors sometimes at training camps:


Principles of the lever (teko)
Principle of the wheel (karuma)
Principle of momentum (hazumi)
Principle of meridians (keimyaku hiko)


There are alot of principles to learn!!!!!!

I personally have an idea to teach kyu kenshi that is eager to learn more that the curriculum says. For example in goho wasa – shita uke geri (san kyu) and shita uke zuki (san dan) or tsukiten ichi (san kyu) and tsukiten san, keriten san, jun geri chi san. The are all the same principle and movement.

For example in juho wasa – I teach juji nuki and juji gote all forms like katate, ryote and morote to nikyu kenshi. To ikkyu student I teach kata muna otoshi and ryo muna otoshi. They are all the same principle and movement.

Johan Frendin

[Blue Popovic]

I have noted a couple of incorrect spellings peppered in the last few answers to this general post. As japanese is the language that allows us all to understand each other across borders when training, I thought I'd point these out :cool:

A beginner is a minarai, not minerai.
The wheel is kuruma, not karuma.

Kesshu.

[Ewok]

For example in juho wasa – I teach juji nuki and juji gote all forms like katate, ryote and morote to nikyu kenshi. To ikkyu student I teach kata muna otoshi and ryo muna otoshi. They are all the same principle and movement.

Pretty much the standard in Japan - even at dan level we will try and do a technique back to front, upside down, standing up, lying down etc. Its not about the technique, its about finding out why it works, and then abusing that simple fact in as many ways as possible.

[sean dixie]

My girlfriend is a police community support officer, intersestingly she came home last night from a course where she had been taught some new armlocks, escapes and releases. Hours after the course (and a couple of shnifters) she had them down to a tee - even taught me a couple of things I hadn't thought of :) I'm sure Ade can give us more here, but I found it really interesting that principles can be taught so quickly to a relative beginner and retention of those principles is kept.

Not to sure about the gun defenses though.... but I guess if you have no other option?

[Indar]

Not to sure about the gun defenses though.... but I guess if you have no other option?

Interesting question; and one that I have some experience of, after living in Nigeria for two years. Not as dangerous as you might think from the media, but a lot of guns around.

My own (limited) experience is that Shorinji Kempo training works. Forget about technique, trying to take the gun away, etc; the key is heijo shin. Don't panic, stay calm, be friendly. If they want your money, watch, etc, then give it up.

There used to be an advert for the British Army which demonstrated the point very well; the Army officer, confronted by an angry man with a semi-automatic weapon takes off his sunglasses and makes (friendly) eye contact. It works.

[Rob Gassin]

First of all, congratulations to Johan on Post #14 - an excellent post!!!

And thank you to Blue for correcting our japanese.

i have recently put a lot of thought into what are the most important principles of juho to teach Minarai. My conclusion is that that it is the principle of kuzuhi, especially in the forward direction, which is the most important. Once minarai understand how to use it, gyaku waza is much easier.

As far as I am concerned, inflicting pain is a an easier to learn concept and should be avoided until the minarai is confident with breaking their partner's balance

[Indar]

i have recently put a lot of thought into what are the most important principles of juho to teach Minarai. My conclusion is that that it is the principle of kuzuhi, especially in the forward direction, which is the most important. Once minarai understand how to use it, gyaku waza is much easier.



not sure about this; Mori Sensei taught that throws can be split into two directions: front down (as you state), and back down.

I believe that Hombu teach 6 directions; perhaps a purist would specify 360 ? :)

for example: okuri gote is clearly front down, whereas gyaku gote is (I think) easier (and safer) to apply back down.

Gyaku gote appears to be one of the most fundamental juho techniques, as well as being one of the most difficult. Since the attacker is pulling, it seems realistic to go with the direction of the attack and take him/her onto his/her heels, thus taking the balance and then applying pressure to take him/her to the floor.

[Steve Malton]

not sure about this; Mori Sensei taught that throws can be split into two directions: front down (as you state), and back down.

I believe that Hombu teach 6 directions; perhaps a purist would specify 360 ? :)

for example: okuri gote is clearly front down, whereas gyaku gote is (I think) easier (and safer) to apply back down.

Indeed they do: front, back, diagonally forward off each little toe, and diagonally back off each heel. In each case it becomes very difficult to support the weight, so the attacker is forced to change their balance at which point the throw is applied. For most techniques it is possible to take the attacker off any of those six balance lines, although the front/back down aspect is fairly fixed by the mechanics of the technique.



Gyaku gote appears to be one of the most fundamental juho techniques, as well as being one of the most difficult. Since the attacker is pulling, it seems realistic to go with the direction of the attack and take him/her onto his/her heels, thus taking the balance and then applying pressure to take him/her to the floor.
A good kagite can change that - get good kagite and the attacker pulls themselves onto the tips of their toes and you break balance in the other direction.

[PeterL]

A good kagite can change that - get good kagite and the attacker pulls themselves onto the tips of their toes and you break balance in the other direction.


My thoughts on this…

I think that this is especially true when the defender is relatively strong with mass (in relation to the attacker). I think that effect (particularly at differing levels of proficiency) can be greatly reduced especially when the attacker is much stronger and larger than the defender. I think one variation that takes this in to account is where the defender does kagite but does not try to "anchor" their body and lets the attacker pull them (perhaps using mae chidori ashi depending on direction on the pull but with a good kagite, they will like be 'set' to use chidori ashi) The pulling of the defender, allows the defender to set the mai and the timing of the meuchi and strike when the attacker is off balance because of the "pulling" motion.

Not sure if you can visualize what I am trying to say.

Cheers

Peter

[Indar]

A good kagite can change that - get good kagite and the attacker pulls themselves onto the tips of their toes and you break balance in the other direction.

True; and by taking the pivot point, (wrist to wrist), under the attackers centre of gravity the defender can flip him/her over in a forward somersault; looks great in embu, but difficult in self-defence.

Perhaps this is one reason why gyaku gote is introduced at a basic stage; there are two applications: elegant and refined (front down), or brutal and effective (back down) :).

[johan_frendin]

A good kagite can change that - get good kagite and the attacker pulls themselves onto the tips of their toes and you break balance in the other direction.

Gassho

Good kagite
In my opinion the main purpose of a good kagite is to make the opponent weak. When the person is weak you can easily make kuzushi in any direction and then throw (otoshi, hazushi).

Tips of their toes
In my opinion you should avoid taking the persons balance as far as the tip of the toes or standing very “high” on his ball of the feet. The reason for this is that the tip of the toes is far beyond the point where a human being unconsciously recognizes that he is losing his balance and will immediately try to compensate this by making a small quick a step. This is very naturally. If you stumble on a stone while walking you immediately and unconsciously make a small quick a step. If you are not fast enough you fall. If you focus on making your partner weak you will find out that you can throw a person much earlier in relation to the point when he standing on his tip of his toes.

Correct attack
If you want to practise for instance gyaku gote according to the above mentioned you need to make a perfect attack. The correct attack to learn the fundamentals and mechanics of gyaku gote is trying to do ude juji gatame. When you have learnt the fundamentals and mechanics of gyaku gote you can make other attacks.

In my opinion it is very important to make a correct attack to avoid the biggest mistake you can do as an attacker in gyaku gote. In Swedish I call it “röven ut”. The translation in English it would be arse pointing out. :D This kind of “behaviour” is very common when you look at kyu kenshi training gyaku gote. In practical terms - the attacker makes a grip to the inside of the wrist and pull. When the defender then tries to do a good kagite shuho the attacker (in a split of a second) sticks his arse out backwards. By doing this he is shifting the point of balance backwards and slightly down and this totally destroys the defenders possibility to learn the fundamentals mechanics of gyaku gote. Of course black belts immediately “feel” this change and will adapt to the situation and shift direction and then throw. But if you as a training partner want to slow down your fellow kenshis understanding of gyaku gote for 6 months or more the “röven ut” is the perfect answer.;)

But if you want to make your training partner learn gyaku gote very fast you should try to make a perfect ude juji gatame as an attack. And yet I have never seen a Shorinjikempo instructor doing ude juji gatame with his as sticking out backwards.;)

Johan Frendin

[Indar]

Indeed they do: front, back, diagonally forward off each little toe, and diagonally back off each heel.

i.e. :

North, South, North East, South East, North West, South West, ?

(assuming that shusha is facing North)

I would also suggest East and West ?

I was tempted to try using the RAF analogy:

12 o/clock, 6 o/clock,

but not so sure about 1.30, 4.30, etc. ?

[xavierkenji]

I think shorinji kempo instructors do indeed talk too much!

Xavier Alford

[Rob Gassin]

Xavier,

The posts above yours are the perfect reason why Shorinji Kempo instructos talk too much -Trying to teach too much too early. i agree fully with most that has been written about gyaku gote but if teaching a minerai, I might just in passing mention that it can be peformed in many directions but would only teach the 'front down' version. I would not introduce the other versions until they are confident with kagite, the basic arm movemenrs and footwork. Therefore less talking = less confusion = more time to practice = more enjoyment. BTW recently I have be trying the Japanese Uni student method of only practising one side. I only do this with minarai and again it seems to minimise confusion, decrease the need for verbal intervention and speeds up progress.

Cheers,

[johan_frendin]

Xavier

I played ice hockey in Sweden for fifteen years. Now my son is 10 years old and has been playing for 3 years. His trainers follow a theoretical material from Swedish hockey federation that is 200 pages just for kids. They spend as much as we in Shorinjikempo explaining to the kids about the basics of hockey like skating, puckhandling, passing, receiving, shooting and tackling. They also talk about eating and drinking correctly.

And it seems that Sweden bring up better players than Great Britain does?;)

Of course they train a lot. My son is 10 years old and he is training 4 times a week and other teams train even more.

This is a budo forum and the purpose is to discuss budo and shorinji. It is nothing wrong by being a Shorinjikempo instructor discussing theory in a public forum as long as you 3-4 times a week turn of the computer and bike to Shorinjikempo class and train hard. I personally do that.

[sean dixie]

Welcome on board Xavier! How's the family? :)

[xavierkenji]

I agree with Rob and Johan. Part of the beauty of Shorinji Kempo is that it enables kenshi to discuss, think about and practice technical details of the syllabus. I suppose it is a thinking man's martial art. I also agree with most of the technical discussions above. And there is certainly nothing wrong with discussing these details on a forum such as this... it what its for.

But I sometimes think this discussion and pondering over technique can be to the detriment of the efficacy of the technique which kind of defeats the purpose of practicing it. I also think, as Rob touched on, that this can be confusing and annoying to kyu kenshi or indeed more experienced kenshi who just want to practice without stopping for a discussion about what they are trying to do every 30 seconds.

I have been working with a selection of Olympic and potential Olympic athletes (including judo, athletics, gymnastics etc...) for the last 3 years and have attended many training sessions. It is interesting to see the difference in how technical detail is imparted. There often seems to be a more intuitive part of training (based on their talent) and then a separate, clearly defined and incredibly detailed analysis of technique, a lot of which happens without the athlete (partly because the coaches don't want the athlete to obsess about their negative points). Analysis is often done with the help of super slow motion (500 frames per second) which enables the coaches to categorically show the athlete exactly what they are doing wrong and how to fix it. I don't think we have this luxury in the average dojo.

I hope this is in the spirit of the discussion forum, never posted here before. I am not crticising anyone here. I just think that its fun to practice a thinking mans martial art but it can sometimes make it frustrating when you just want to train and work things out for yourself first.

Xavier Alford

[xavierkenji]

Hi Sean,

Heard about your stag do!

Kids are fine... but have chicken pox. See you Friday?

[Rob Gassin]

An instructor I had, had an interesting way, and I think a very good way ,of teaching. He would demonstrate a technique once or twice and point out 1 or 2 principles. He would then let the students practise. If he saw someone doing something drastically wrong, he would correct it but otherwise he would let the students learn from each other. The student could ask for help at any time in this whole process.

A few sessions later, he would revise the techniquesand make sure the students remembered the principles. Once the students understood the principles and could apply them, he added more principles and refined the technique.

His theory was that, having seen him and the senior students do the technique, the students had a mental image of what the technique should look like. By being given the opportunity to practise uninterrupted, each student could get a feel for the technique and develop the closest approximation of the technique he could. The role of the instructor then was to focus on these aspects of the technique that were hindering each student's progress (in many instances, the students themselves, through repetition, become aware of problems with their technique and correct these).

In the long run, each student's technique improved, the students were happy as they could practise uninterrupted, their fitness improved as they were doing more reps and so did their muscle memory.

[xavierkenji]

Rob,

That sounds a simple, excellent and familiar teaching method. It is how it should be.

But its not what always happens in practice when senior kenshi without too much teaching experience are teaching juho. I feel that sometimes it turns into a 'I know more technical stuff about this than you' exercise/contest. For me, I seem to get more out of training when there is less talking and am left to work things out for myself (under the gaze of more experienced kenshi). I also find that when I am trying to teach this approach gets better results from kyu kenshi in terms of many things including, crucially, the number of times they get to practice the technique.

I guess what I'm getting at is that because SK is a thinking mans MA it attracts people who love to think out loud too much in the dojo. For me this is one of the off putting parts of practice. (Although its also one of the aspects that attract so many people to it in the first place)

I never thought I would post here. What am I doing? what a knob 'ed

Xav

[Steve Malton]

Gassho

Good kagite
In my opinion the main purpose of a good kagite is to make the opponent weak. When the person is weak you can easily make kuzushi in any direction and then throw (otoshi, hazushi).

Tips of their toes
In my opinion you should avoid taking the persons balance as far as the tip of the toes or standing very “high” on his ball of the feet.

Correct attack
If you want to practise for instance gyaku gote according to the above mentioned you need to make a perfect attack. The correct attack to learn the fundamentals and mechanics of gyaku gote is trying to do ude juji gatame. When you have learnt the fundamentals and mechanics of gyaku gote you can make other attacks.


Johan, excellent post, exactly what I was trying to get at. Perhaps I should have said "towards the tips of the toes" rather on "onto".


My thoughts on this…

I think that this is especially true when the defender is relatively strong with mass (in relation to the attacker). I think that effect (particularly at differing levels of proficiency) can be greatly reduced especially when the attacker is much stronger and larger than the defender. I think one variation that takes this in to account is where the defender does kagite but does not try to "anchor" their body and lets the attacker pull them (perhaps using mae chidori ashi depending on direction on the pull but with a good kagite, they will like be 'set' to use chidori ashi) The pulling of the defender, allows the defender to set the mai and the timing of the meuchi and strike when the attacker is off balance because of the "pulling" motion.

Not sure if you can visualize what I am trying to say.

Cheers

Peter
Peter, yes of course you have to adapt things when there is a clear disparity in the strengths of the partners. But when things are roughly equal, a good kagite against a good attack can really leave the attacker pulling themselves forward.



North, South, North East, South East, North West, South West, ?

(assuming that shusha is facing North)

I would also suggest East and West ?
I find that trying to go directly to the sides leaves the throw between front-down and back-down, making it neither, then things get a bit sloppy. But that might just be me :D

[judepeel]

I suppose it is a thinking man's martial art.

*cough cough* what about the thinking woman? :look: (wonder if anyone will say the obvious misogynistic retort to this :) )

[JL.]

Gassho!

First off, I agree that instructors can talk too much (I tend to myself).
But I still disagree with most of what was written before, to a certain degree at least.


An instructor I had, had an interesting way, and I think a very good way ,of teaching. He would demonstrate a technique once or twice and point out 1 or 2 principles. He would then let the students practise. If he saw someone doing something drastically wrong, he would correct it but otherwise he would let the students learn from each other. The student could ask for help at any time in this whole process.
[…]
In the long run, each student's technique improved, the students were happy as they could practise uninterrupted, their fitness improved as they were doing more reps and so did their muscle memory.Show me a (total) beginner that doesn't do practically everything 'drastically wrong'!
In my experience most people do not manage to emulate the rather complex movements in Shorinjikempo waza just from example well. If they're not told the correct way of the basic movements over and over but left to train 'uninterrupted' it may lead to them training completely wrong things, which makes it even harder to learn the correct way afterwards, because they have to unlearn the mistakes first – especially if it's already in the 'muscle memory'
It can be different with beginners who have already done other MAs or sports that focus on learning complex movements, though.


(in many instances, the students themselves, through repetition, become aware of problems with their technique and correct these). This is also something I almost never encounter in beginners of less than, say half a year of experience in Shorinjikempo. So maybe we're talking two different things here …


I'm also not a big fan of this idea of Shorinjikempo as a 'thinking man's MA' (even sexism aside) – who made that up, anyway? I know no MAs that don't require quite a huge amount of thinking, and I know MA teachers from other styles that tend to talk quite a bit more than the average Shorinjikempo sensei. I'd say that Shorinjikempo puts more emphasis on philosophy in training than most other styles (I know), but apart from that the above phrase just sounds like a way of saying "we're smart(er)" to me – rather arrogant and not budo at all.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[Rob Gassin]

I'm also not a big fan of this idea of Shorinjikempo as a 'thinking man's MA' (even sexism aside) – who made that up, anyway? I know no MAs that don't require quite a huge amount of thinking, and I know MA teachers from other styles that tend to talk quite a bit more than the average Shorinjikempo sensei. I'd say that Shorinjikempo puts more emphasis on philosophy in training than most other styles (I know), but apart from that the above phrase just sounds like a way of saying "we're smart(er)" to me – rather arrogant and not budo at all.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Or it could mean we're 'all talk no action' :laugh:.


Show me a (total) beginner that doesn't do practically everything 'drastically wrong'!
In my experience most people do not manage to emulate the rather complex movements in Shorinjikempo waza just from example well. If they're not told the correct way of the basic movements over and over but left to train 'uninterrupted' it may lead to them training completely wrong things, which makes it even harder to learn the correct way afterwards, because they have to unlearn the mistakes first – especially if it's already in the 'muscle memory'
It can be different with beginners who have already done other MAs or sports that focus on learning complex movements, though.


Quote:
(in many instances, the students themselves, through repetition, become aware of problems with their technique and correct these).

This is also something I almost never encounter in beginners of less than, say half a year of experience in Shorinjikempo. So maybe we're talking two different things here …
First of all, when teaching, break up the waza so that the individual parts are not complex. For example. For Yori Nuki. Practise moving into kagite 20 times then add the atemi and do 20 times then add the nuki 20 times then add the thefinal atemi 20 times etc. Further decrease the complexity by only practicing on one side. By this method, by the end of training, the kenshi has done kagite at least 80 times and practiced the nuki at least 40 times. Simple and effective training.

[JL.]

Gassho!


Or it could mean we're 'all talk no action' :laugh:.Very good point! Maybe even just 'all brood, nothing else'. :)



First of all, when teaching, break up the waza so that the individual parts are not complex. For example. For Yori Nuki. Practise moving into kagite 20 times then add the atemi and do 20 times then add the nuki 20 times then add the thefinal atemi 20 times etc. Further decrease the complexity by only practicing on one side. By this method, by the end of training, the kenshi has done kagite at least 80 times and practiced the nuki at least 40 times. Simple and effective training.Australians must be much better at moving and learning to move than Germans if You think that's simple. Kagite shuho alone takes most people here (me included) years to learn properly.
Generally speaking I was thinking in more basic terms: Moving the hip in a certain way and direction (specifically furiko), relaxing the arms, wrists and fingers enough for Me uchi etc. This seems to be immensely hard for most beginners.
I do break down the techniques, but the point is that I can't get them to do, say, Kagite shuho 20 times correctly(!) – or even remotely so – without teaching it for several minutes first, including lots of talking. Afterwards they go off to practice it in pairs and do everything wrong I just said. ;) That's an exaggeration, obviously, and maybe I'm just a bad teacher (definitely still a rather inexperienced one).
What helps a lot is pairing up beginners with the advanced, though the latter tend to talk a lot as well. ^^

Ideally I'd like to take the first one or two months of a beginners course to just teach people how to walk, breath, relax(!!) and generally move. I'm afraid there'd be no one left at the end of it, though. :(

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[Rob Gassin]

Gassho!

Very good point! Maybe even just 'all brood, nothing else'. :)


Australians must be much better at moving and learning to move than Germans if You think that's simple. Kagite shuho alone takes most people here (me included) years to learn properly.
Generally speaking I was thinking in more basic terms: Moving the hip in a certain way and direction (specifically furiko), relaxing the arms, wrists and fingers enough for Me uchi etc. This seems to be immensely hard for most beginners.
I do break down the techniques, but the point is that I can't get them to do, say, Kagite shuho 20 times correctly(!) – or even remotely so – without teaching it for several minutes first, including lots of talking. Afterwards they go off to practice it in pairs and do everything wrong I just said. ;) That's an exaggeration, obviously, and maybe I'm just a bad teacher (definitely still a rather inexperienced one).
What helps a lot is pairing up beginners with the advanced, though the latter tend to talk a lot as well. ^^

Ideally I'd like to take the first one or two months of a beginners course to just teach people how to walk, breath, relax(!!) and generally move. I'm afraid there'd be no one left at the end of it, though. :(

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Hi Jan,

I get it now, Germans are slow learners :D.

Seriously, I think that the difference is that you expect minarai to get the technique right, I expect them to get the principle right. I don't care if kagite is not right, as long as they know what they are supposed to achieve. So I do not necessarily correct every mistake. For example for migi jodan zuki from kaisoku chudan. Basic principles include shifting the body to the left and thusting the right hip and shoulder forward. Most beginners will get this wrong initially but as long as they know the principles, I do not spend too much time demonstrating. I agree that some need more guidance than others but eventually they usually work it out.

Cheers,

[paul browne]

Gassho,

An anecdote relating to the last few posts.

Just after passing Shodan and wearing my shiny new black belt I went to train at one of the branches I regularly guested at. I was called on by Jee Sensei (it wasn't his branch but he was teaching the 4th Kyu's) to demonstrate Uwa Uke Zuki. Having watched me do so he cheerfully tore apart my umpoho, taisabaki, uke waza, atemi and renhanko :).
Now part of this was obviously 'hammering down the nail', I forget the Japanese, but it also made me realise there are degrees of right (I mean technically...not debating Ade's avatar). Two weeks previously I had a decent 1st Kyu Uwauke Zuki, but I wasn't a brown belt any more and the expectation had changed.
Since then, if a beginner manages to perform a hokei vaguely resembling the orthodox form and achieve what's intended, I'll tell him/her it was very good, then you start polishing it. If they are still doing it the same way six months down the line, I start to cheerfully dissassemble it.
Regards
Paul
Kesshu

[Tripitaka of AA]

"cheerfully" :) :laugh:

[Rob Gassin]

Very true Paul B.

Nick Sanders sensei - 4th dan. Takes great pleasure 'cheerfuly disassembling' my technique at every opportunity. Very humbling but necessary :D.

BTW, like David N, I love the expression 'cheerfully disassemble' , with your permission, I will adopt it.

[Tripitaka of AA]

...it has echoes of Yamasaki Sensei's advice to smile while performing a technique. Apparently it produces just the right amount of relaxation.

[Rob Gassin]

Jan,

Further to our exchange earlier, after careful reflection, i do think that there might be an important cultural difference in the way teaching takees place in Germany and Australia.

Germans are known to strive for excellence and perfection whereas Australians are more easy going and live by the expression - 'she'll be alright mate'. I think that this cultural difference might go some way to explaining our different approaches to training.

Yes, I know, I've just stereotyped all Germans and Australians in one post. Not to worry, she'll be alright mate.

Cheers,

[paul browne]

Gassho,

I once 'cheerfully disassembled' an Ikkyu's Ude Juji by biting his tricep, when against all evidence to the contrary he insisted he was doing it correctly. He was horrified/mortified/deep fried (choose the one that fits:D) but his technique improved no-end after that. Of course I would never have bitten a lower grade, it takes to at least Brown belt to tenderise a kenshi;).

and I cheerfully donate my phrase to you all :)

Kesshu
Paul

[PeterL]

Peter, yes of course you have to adapt things when there is a clear disparity in the strengths of the partners. But when things are roughly equal, a good kagite against a good attack can really leave the attacker pulling themselves forward.


Hi Steve,

Thanks for your comment. I brought this up because it seems to me (from the photos I have seen here and the way that people talk about how they use techniques) that many of the posters are fairly large and/or strong (relative to other kenshi, and I think that gives a different perspective. I agree with what you say about a kagite being very important and can leave the attacker pullimg themselves forward. One "approach" that one of my teachers like us to think about is (forgive the poor description) the how a "soft" kagite works. I think that the early stage of kagite, kenshi try to "pull the attacker forward which actually can "work" or seem to work with a people of similar strength and mass. But that is not actually a good kagite. (speaking from my own experience with kagite).

just thinking out loud....

thanks for your comment

peter

[Tripitaka of AA]

So the after-training merriment in Oz is "a shrimp on the barbi" and in Germany it is "pass the Bockwurst" :)

I'm sure that all words and discussion apart, the training would feel very similar indeed, and likewise for the apres-training also.:cool:

[David Dunn]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your comment. I brought this up because it seems to me (from the photos I have seen here and the way that people talk about how they use techniques) that many of the posters are fairly large and/or strong (relative to other kenshi, and I think that gives a different perspective

Hi Peter, not me and Paul Browne. We're titches :)

[JL.]

Gassho!


Germans are known to strive for excellence and perfection whereas Australians are more easy going and live by the expression - 'she'll be alright mate'. I think that this cultural difference might go some way to explaining our different approaches to training.Stereotypes usually don't get one very far … but this difference might contribute to our different takes on this. It might just be us, either, of course. :)
Incidentally, with this kind of attitude Australians should get along fine with Bavarians (Germany's biggest state, and home of about 80% of all German kenshi), who are known for their attitude of "basst scho" – something like works fine / it's okay / etc. It can be used in a sentence something like this:
A: "Do you think the ropes and belts on my parachute are okay?"
B: "Basst scho."



I'm sure that all words and discussion apart, the training would feel very similar indeed, and likewise for the apres-training also.:cool:Amen to that! :)

Kesshu,
______ Jan.



P. S.: The above exchange actually happened. I was A. ^^ JL

[PeterL]

Hi Peter, not me and Paul Browne. We're titches :)

Not sure what a titch is, though I will assume it mean some hobbit like creature, perhaps without the hair on the feet. ;)

I do wonder if also being a titch means you are significantly weaker than all/most of your training partners, or are you just titch sized (which I assume is diminutive) .

Whatever combination you are, how does that affect your training relative to the bigger, stronger, training partners. Do you find that the bigger ones tend towards pulling you in kagite, rather that "forming' kagite (meaning that the kagite does not feel so much like you are playing "tug of war").

cheers

peter

[johan_frendin]

Gassho

I wonder what you all think about repetition?

Many years ago a very high graded instructor said to me that in Shorinjikempo we never do high repetition training like 500 hundred kicks but instead we do 30 kicks with perfect technique.

Do you think this is true?

As I said before my son is playing ice hockey. Once every month a special skater trainer visits the kids training session. For 2 hours the kids only do the most important principal in icehockey - Skate.

All kids in the team really hate it. The trainers surely knows this so they never tell when this special training is going to take place.
The trainers also know that through repetition of skating, the kids learn. From repetition the kids bad skating performance transform into something that the can depend on when playing.

In Shorinjikempo Juho gyaku gote principle is one of the most important principle. Maybe we should practice gykau gote for 2 hours once a month?:)

Of course, high repetition is boring and painful. But, if we want to not just feel better but also really be better, that is maybe what we have to do?

Johan Frendin

[JL.]

Gassho!

Repetition is one of the most fundamental principles in learning. Especially if one wants to commit a certain movement to so-called muscle memory.
Maybe what the Sensei meant was that instead of mindlessly repeating a movement (esp. without correcting mistakes!) one should think about what one's doing throughout the repetitions and that it wouldn't take quite so many that way.
Anders-sensei said that we should do techniques ten times slowly without pain and then once with. That way one can get in quite a few repetitions without ruining the wrists, I suppose.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[paul browne]

Gassho,


Not sure what a titch is, though I will assume it mean some hobbit like creature, perhaps without the hair on the feet. ;)cheers

peter

Hi Peter,
I can't speak for Dave but I have the hairy feet. My nicknames at work are of the Gimli, Bilbo, Ewok and Yoda variety. (and at 5' 6" I'm not that small!!). I think the beard contributes to the illusion.

As regards Kagite, my juho isn't great but i have noticed the following;
If you use umpo ho correctly, as you take up kagite you place yourself more or less perpendicular to their line of balance, meaning thier pull effectively drags them off balance against your relative, brief inertia (science isn't my strong point so correct this if you want to, I'm much better at poetry:)). If they pull directly too hard and quickly for you to reposition then the kagite is even more transitory, and as you follow the pull you go straight into the nukimi or waza. Incidently kenshi acting as kogeki rarely seem to be grabbing and pulling with purpose, simply pulling or pushing a limb rather than actively attempting to perform an attack of their own, ie Ude Juji, gyaku tembin, ude gyaku dori, ippon seionage etc. I think this is important, as a realistic considered attack changes drastically the 'dynamic' of the movement and the umpoho/taisabaki that uke needs to perform. Once a kenshi has the basic technique down I think this is how it should be practiced.

Johan,
Not totally related but regarding repetition, and how it can be difficult for Dan grades who teach to practice enough, I recall Mori Sensei saying at a seminar that he always did every technique five times with each student he was teaching. More if there were fewer students. Anders Sensei's method also makes excellent sense, especially as I get older and heal more slowly:).
I think we occasionally confuse training and practice. In formal study time we are being instructed in the mechanics of a technique so 'practice' will be interupted to correct and polish. Practise needs to be done in the down time, that's when repetition comes in. We also shouldn't forget that performing 30 mawashi geri is nowhere near as fatiguing as 30 nage waza to gatame, especially for kogeki (it's the getting up that kills me:)).

Like I said my juho's ropey so all the above is just my opinion (except about my hairy feet, that's fact:)) .

Kesshu
Paul

[Tripitaka of AA]

Paul, you kill me. ;)... all within within the Shorinji Kempo spirit, of course :)

[paul browne]

Paul, you kill me. ;)... all within within the Shorinji Kempo spirit, of course :)


Are you suggesting I don't adhere to Fusatsu Katsujin?:o
I'm shocked!!
Paul

[Steve Williams]

Like I said my juho's ropey so all the above is just my opinion (except about my hairy feet, that's fact:)) .

Kesshu
Paul
thats true and true........

We were embu partners for many years so I can confirm the hairy feet (although I only saw them after I was thrown as paul is rather short ;) )

Hobbit Browne has spoken......

[PeterL]

Hi Paul,


G
I can't speak for Dave but I have the hairy feet. My nicknames at work are of the Gimli, Bilbo, Ewok and Yoda variety. (and at 5' 6" I'm not that small!!). I think the beard contributes to the illusion.

Don't know how to respond expcet perhaps too many details, LOL



As regards Kagite, my juho isn't great but i have noticed the following;
If you use umpo ho correctly, as you take up kagite you place yourself more or less perpendicular to their line of balance, meaning thier pull effectively drags them off balance against your relative, brief inertia (science isn't my strong point so correct this if you want to, I'm much better at poetry:)). If they pull directly too hard and quickly for you to reposition then the kagite is even more transitory, and as you follow the pull you go straight into the nukimi or waza. Incidently kenshi acting as kogeki rarely seem to be grabbing and pulling with purpose, simply pulling or pushing a limb rather than actively attempting to perform an attack of their own, ie Ude Juji, gyaku tembin, ude gyaku dori, ippon seionage etc. I think this is important, as a realistic considered attack changes drastically the 'dynamic' of the movement and the umpoho/taisabaki that uke needs to perform. Once a kenshi has the basic technique down I think this is how it should be practiced.

I agree with you. Practice can tend to be hand holding rather than "grabbing with purpose" at times. (I do think that there is a need for soft practice of juho especially at kyu level). But I agree it is very important to have some one actually trying an attack that you need to make kagite as a defense. If there ia a "let up point" it should be after the grab attack is broken and at the beginning of the counter just when it starts to "take effect" . (does that make sense?

I think this equally applies to goho. I think that particularly with the first strike the kogeki should be actually trying to hit the defender (most kenshi can block the first strike when they know it is coming) and when the second strike is not "real (as in a jo-chu) type attack, it is very hard to get the correct mai. I think this is the biggest "problem" in the goho practice that if the strikes are not "real" distancing and countering does not work well. For example keri-age as a counter to gyaku chudan zuki does not "work" well unless the kogeki has committed to the strike. (perhaps a better way of saying it is that keri-age is not the best counter if the kogeki's is slightly forward..)


Thanks again for you comments

Peter

[Indar]

Gassho

I wonder what you all think about repetition?

Many years ago a very high graded instructor said to me that in Shorinjikempo we never do high repetition training like 500 hundred kicks but instead we do 30 kicks with perfect technique.

Do you think this is true?



I think that it depends on what you are training for:

If you want perfect technique then maybe the second method is better; if you want to be able to knock someone down with your kick, probably the first.

There are people with great form who couldn't kick a hole in a cardboard box; there are people with terrible technique who could kick a hole in a brick wall :).

My own view is that SK is about balance; so 100 kicks with excellent technique ?

[paul browne]

Gassho

I think that it depends on what you are training for:

If you want perfect technique then maybe the second method is better; if you want to be able to knock someone down with your kick, probably the first.

There are people with great form who couldn't kick a hole in a cardboard box; there are people with terrible technique who could kick a hole in a brick wall :).

My own view is that SK is about balance; so 100 kicks with excellent technique ?

I agree with most of the above except to say that 500 kicks against air won't teach you to knock someone down (ie kick accurately with power). To do this you need to hit something that gives feedback, preferably a Do during technique(I prefer the old style Do's for this as you can try and make the shockwave pass through), next a partner held shield and if neither of the above are available a heavy bag. Of course the same goes for any striking technique.

Indar is right about there being people with poor form who can kick hard. I have found in teaching gedan furi geri at work (they call it a sweeping kick but it's effectively the same thing) that the amateur soccer players all kicked at the wrong (upward) angle, but all kicked hardest by far and would have been the most effective, with the goalies kicking harder than anyone else. This included those classes that had 'retired' karateka in them.

Of course what we are aiming for is powerful, accurate techniques with good form. After all the reason there is a 'form' is that's the best way to deliver the technique:).
Kesshu
Paul

[Indar]

I might just in passing mention that it can be peformed in many directions but would only teach the 'front down' version.


so you prefer "elegant and refined" to "brutal and effective" ?

actually, so do I, but it's nice to be able to do both. gyaku gote is difficult enough to do anyway, so anyone who can do it "front down" is already at an advantage.

The Kenseikai website has a very good explanation; I believe that the website owner studied or studies at Tokyo University with Sanada Sensei, so this explanation ought to be about as authentic as it's possible to get.

http://kenseikai.world.coocan.jp/engindex.htm