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George Hyde
6th February 2001, 15:22
Hi All,

Anyone got any info on bo/shakujo han-bo/jo kata/waza? Any books or net resources?

In my experience it seems that instruction in the above is a bit of a hit 'n' miss afair, depending on where you find yourself training. Eg., I understand that in New York, han-bo/jo featured regularly in Miyata Sensei's classes. Elsewhere such is rarely seen.

What's your experience?

Later,

Johan Frendin
8th February 2001, 07:02
Gassho!

I have been practising Shorinji Kempo for 17 years and never been instructed in weapon training. The answer I´ve got from high ranked instructors i that they are totaly unpractical in modern selfdefence and people who come to our dojo want modern selfdefence not ancient weapon practice. I disagree with this opinion. Those students who have reached blackbelt status in our dojo would love to learn weapon tecniques. But the only thing I can say to them i that even if have been practicing 17 years I have not been instructed in these tecniques. Thats really sad and probably very disapointing to my senior student to.

I believe that the reason that high Shorinji Kempo instructors do not teach weapon tecniques is becuase they dont know them. I think only very few older high ranked instructors in Japan can properly teach these tecniques.

Johan Frendin, Gothenburg Sweden

Anders Pettersson
8th February 2001, 11:48
Hi George and Johan.

Concerning Shakujo, Nyoi and Dokko, the weapons that we have within Shorinji Kempo, as you both write it is not very common that even high ranked teachers know much about them.

As for myself I have been taught some very few basics in the use of these weapons, on some rare occasions I might add.
Shindo-sensei, the teacher that own the Daruma-Do shop in Tadotsu and sells Shakujo (the red type most of us have seen Ueda-sensei use in his demonstrations) and Nyoi. He has on some occasions showed me the basic ways to use the Nyoi and Shakujo. I have also been taught a little Shakujo from the Morikawa brothers in Rakuto-doin (they was no. 1 in the International Taikai in 1997), they in their turn, I believe, have been taught by Ueda-sensei.

Basically the use of Shakujo is based on the "empty hand" hokei (in goho), which means that one can do for instance tsubamegaeshi (or any other goho hokei) with the Shakujo, more or less the same way, I have also seen tenchiken-1 done in tanen with Shakujo.

According to what I could understand from Shindo-sensei (my Japanese is not very good) is that not many people are considered to be teachers of these weapons. I have also asked Hombu about Shakujo, Nyoi and Dokko, and as for Shakujo there is a project going on, led by Kawashima-sensei with the help of Ueda-sensei. Haven't got much details on this but if I understood correctly this will lead to some sort of Shakujo kamokuhyo.

I hope this is something that will be ready in the close future, many of the original students of Kaiso are getting old, and many have already died.
The same thing goes for Seiho. I asked Bando-sensei, last years May, if there was some sort of Seiho Kamokuhyo. He said no, but that he thought that Hombu should make one. When asking Arai-sensei, about this he said that Hombu didn't have any plans of this yet.

hsuntzu
8th February 2001, 22:30
At the Hombu seminar in Nov00 (the Niji Koshukai for 4dan & up), Kawashima-sensei showed us the Dokko-ken, a single form for the Dokko. That was my first time of seeing a Dokko form. I'd describe it as a variant of the existing single forms.

As for the Shakujo, I echo Anders' comments. The bits and pieces I have been taught (mostly from my branch master) and seen are extensions or variants of the Goho techniques.

Gassho

Anders Pettersson
8th February 2001, 23:21
Gassho.

Hi Karahashi-san

I have also practiced the Dokko-ken. Have been taught by kenshi from Rakuto-doin, but never seen it at Hombu.

Would be interesting to see if it is the same form. As far as I can see it isn't listed in the Kyouhan. (wonder why?)

The way I learnt was, to explain it very simple;
3 strikes in one direction, then zentenkan and jun geri and the same type of strikes to the opposite direction. Not ordinary zuki but more like kagizuki type with the dokko.
(a little difficult to explain, at least for me in English)

Anybody understand that?

migjohns
9th February 2001, 01:02
The February issue of Full Contact Karate (published in Japan) had a great article on Ueda-sensei, and included illustrated Shaku-jo stances and techniques. I personally had been taught most of the Shaku-jo techniques covered in the article about five years ago, but was never clearly told their names, so it is nice to see the official "names" of the techniques, and to see that they seem be becoming more systematized. The magazine also had a great spread on Paris' Aosaka Sensei. I know Honbu bought up many copies of the magazine, so you might be able to purchase it through them.

Cheers,
Mike Johnson
Inuyama-Kita Shibu

Phong Nguyen-Le
10th February 2001, 15:36
If you guys look closely, you will see Dokko-ken being performed in some of the demos in Japanese Taikai videos (I think Hyogo 99 had one). The sensei does it without the dokko but with his forefinger and thumb to represent the dokko. Traditionally I was told they didn't use the forefinger and thumb, but because of the horizonal fist when performing a lot of the strikes with the dokko, it was easy to confuse Dokko-ken with katas from karate etc, so they added the forefinger and thumb to represent the dokko.

Anyway, it has been quite a while since I watched the video and had this conversation, so I could be wrong. Correct me if I am.

Cheers
Phong Nguyen-Le

Gary Dolce
12th February 2001, 03:24
What a coincidence! I was just given a copy of the 1998 Zenkoku Taikai video held in Kobe. I watched it for the first time this weekend and was trying to figure out one sequence in a single form demo done by Kawashima Sensei in which his thumb and forefinger are extended. I guess this explains it. But why do it without the dokko? It was very hard to interpret this way.

By the way, it has been a long time (since 1993) since I have been to a Taikai in Japan. One impression I have looking at the 1998 tape is more (both quantity and variety) of sweeps and other leg takedowns included in the embu. Of course the tape only shows highlights so it is a bit hard to tell if this is a general trend. Any comments?

Steve Williams
12th February 2001, 22:12
Originally posted by Gary Dolce
By the way, it has been a long time (since 1993) since I have been to a Taikai in Japan. One impression I have looking at the 1998 tape is more (both quantity and variety) of sweeps and other leg takedowns included in the embu. Of course the tape only shows highlights so it is a bit hard to tell if this is a general trend. Any comments?

It does seem that leg sweeps are being incorporated into practice more. (I have a couple of ex-Shotokan dan grades who train with me, so have been 'dabbling' with them for a while).

Anders might remember Mizuno Sensei using a leg-sweep take down a couple of times when he demonstrated at the Swedish 30th anniversary (I remember because I was the one being 'planted' by the sweeps), so is there a trend?

John McCollum
12th February 2001, 23:46
I for one hope leg sweeps do become more prominent in training. As an ex-shotokan person myself it's great to throw the occasional sweep into randoori practice - it's often the last thing my partner is expecting and is highly effective if their balance is going / gone.

I have to say, the first time I saw a leg sweep in Kempo was watching George Hyde's embu! (I think!)

John

George Hyde
13th February 2001, 16:00
If you're/I'm right, you're probably referring to my embu with Dave Dunn of long ago (Sokuto-gari to kekkai from fukko-gamai).

However, I'd hesitate to call it a leg sweep since most attempts to pull it off landed in kinteki.

Sorry Dave.

A more recent collaboration with Stuart Tatlock involves a very definite leg sweep in which I crash to the ground with all the grace of a sack of spuds.

Anyway - back to the thread...

Anyone know of any firm plans to formalise the syllabus in this area?


Later,

Phong Nguyen-Le
15th February 2001, 03:01
Just a few replies to some of the points raised:

Johan - The dokko and baton (nyoi?) can still be used in a modern day context. In a life threatening situation, two pens make more than adequate dokkos, and that's something you can easily carry in your shirt pocket. As for the nyoi, Paul, one of the seniors from the Newcastle SK Branch is a police officer, when he was in Japan, he asked to be taught the nyoi and they happily taught it to him. The general impression that I got from training at many branches in Japan is that the Japanese student's don't tend to ask a lot of questions and rarely ask what they want to be taught, and so the sensei's assume that the student's aren't interested.

Gary - I can only assume that the reason why dokko-ken was preformed without the dokko is simply because it can be. For example the nyoi and bo both needs the weapons to be actually practiced, whereas with dokko techniques, they can be practiced anywhere and anytime without the weapons.

Steve and John - I think you're both correct in saying that leg sweeps are becoming more common. I recently saw one being used in an embu by the Gold Coast SK Branch in Australia. They have a lot of former karate students, and like you noted, I believe that clubs with a mix of former karate/kung fu students tend to have more variety in both their embus and randori, since they are already thinking outside of the square - which is usually a good thing.

And lastly, George, with regards to Hombu releasing a syllabus for the weapons techniques... I have no idea.


Cheers
Phong Nguyen-Le

luar
16th February 2001, 04:46
Originally posted by George Hyde
Hi All,

Anyone got any info on bo/shakujo han-bo/jo kata/waza? Any books or net resources?

In my experience it seems that instruction in the above is a bit of a hit 'n' miss afair, depending on where you find yourself training. Eg., I understand that in New York, han-bo/jo featured regularly in Miyata Sensei's classes. Elsewhere such is rarely seen.

What's your experience?

Later,



I study in the NY branch under Sensei Miyata since mid-summer and I have yet to see a class in which they use any weapons training. Rarely I do see some of the black belts off in the corner practicing with a bo

Yes I know its a late reply but beter late than never

Cailey Barker
16th February 2001, 12:57
This has been an interesting discussion...
Actually there is an official bo course that's taught in hombu as part of the busen. I've watched them a number of times (it consists mostly of kata). Also, there is a kind of unofficial curriculum that is floating in the underworld of hombu, but its not for general release (probably some high grade sensei made it and it wasn't officially approved by hombu). I've seen a copy of it but I'm sure you can't get hold of it.

Jee Sensei and Sensei Paul used to do a bo embu many years ago, but a lot of the moves they invented themselves from Kempo techniques. It was quite spectacular though, and a great crowd pleaser.

A lot of the dokko training comes from the original use by the buddhist monks (you can see a lot of them in the temples). Hence the some of the moves contain niosen like blocks and stances (uchiharai uke etc.).

The nyoi techniques are generally kempo techniques used as an extension (tsubame gaeshi etc.) and for defence against the bo.

The curriculum surrounding all the weapons is not compulsary and so is not an integral part of the syllabus. Therefore, it is really the choice of the sensei whether they want to teach it or not. Most choose not to because they consider time would be better spent learning normal techniques. Thus the majority don't really know how to use them. In the past there was more emphasis on them and they were used by more instructors. However, since the laws regarding weapons are quite strict now, many have moved away from using them.

However, Hombu instructors will teach them if asked. Their expertise in them all comes down to their personal preference.

The emphasis of sweeps really came about in the 1993 international Taikai when the 4th Dan+ category winners used one. Since then a lot of kenshi have incorporated them into their embu (myself included for a time..before my knees gave way). It was however, used before that but no-one took much notice. The main "flash move" of embu has now tended to shift to the "power kick", where hard contact is made and the person is knocked to the floor... something taken from Hombu instructors hono embu in about 1990. Its a lot safer and easier to control than sweeps.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth. Hope it helps...

Steve Williams
16th February 2001, 22:00
Who has a long memory here in the UK?

Myself and Paul Browne did a Bo/ Nyoi embu as part of the martial aid demonstration about 5 years ago, Cailey may remember?

I used Nyoi, Paul used Bo, Mizuno sensei gave us assistence, but much was self-taught, from watching video/ reading books (non Shorinji Bo books) and adapting existing kempo technique.
It all went realy well (we thought) even if I did get a vicious smack on the ankle, so BO/ Nyoi can be learned with only a little help, a little application and a lot of work (and a set of sore knuckles for both participants).

John McCollum
16th February 2001, 22:26
>It all went realy well (we thought) even if I did get a vicious smack on the ankle, so BO/ Nyoi can be learned with only a >little help, a little application and a lot of work (and a set of sore knuckles for both participants).

Agreed. I think the best way to learn weapons techniques in the absence of people who really know what they are doing is to try it, and try to figure out what's going wrong. Pretty much the closest anyone at Glasgow has come to weapons training recently is grabbing a big stick at the end of class and mucking around. Myself and a partner managed to adapt Tenchiken 1 sotai with Bo in not to much time recently. It was really useful not for demonstration purposes, but just for general getting used to handling a big stick purposes.

Not that I like to brag, of course, it's just that hitting each other with sticks comes naturally to we Glasgwegians.

Re: the knuckles issue - wear mitts. Saves a lot of pain and odd bruises. Full plate armour is also useful, if available.

john.

[Edited by John McCollum on 02-16-2001 at 04:34 PM]

Steve Williams
16th February 2001, 23:55
Originally posted by John McCollum
Re: the knuckles issue - wear mitts. Saves a lot of pain and odd bruises. Full plate armour is also useful, if available.


And I thought you Scots were hard... :laugh:
Down here we are not worried about a little thing like a broken/ bruised/ crushed (or otherwise disfigured) knuckle. ;)

John McCollum
17th February 2001, 20:53
The person I was training with, Tony Leith, was more than 'ard enough to withstand my clumsy bludgeoning. I, on the other hand, would rather have the use of my hands in ten years time.
:D

John.

Anders Pettersson
17th February 2001, 21:04
Originally posted by migjohns
The February issue of Full Contact Karate (published in Japan) had a great article on Ueda-sensei, and included illustrated Shaku-jo stances and techniques. I personally had been taught most of the Shaku-jo techniques covered in the article about five years ago, but was never clearly told their names, so it is nice to see the official "names" of the techniques, and to see that they seem be becoming more systematized. The magazine also had a great spread on Paris' Aosaka Sensei. I know Honbu bought up many copies of the magazine, so you might be able to purchase it through them.

Hi here is a small pic of the cover from that magazine.

<img src="http://www.budoshop.co.jp/K-magazine-Japan/2000-12/furukon2001-2.jpg">

I've bee trying to get a copy of it but haven't had any luck yet.
I would be interesting to see all the pictures and names of the Shakujo techniques.

Cailey Barker
19th February 2001, 16:16
Sorry Steve...missed that one. I think I was in Africa around that time so never got to see it. Any chance of a re-release??

(might be difficlut to pin down that "deserter" partner of yours...joke)

George Hyde
19th February 2001, 16:20
Originally posted by Cailey Barker
Sorry Steve...missed that one. I think I was in Africa around that time so never got to see it. Any chance of a re-release??

Don't bother Cailey - from what I remember, it was all very Jackie Chan.

Later,

Steve Williams
19th February 2001, 20:08
Cailey, No don't think there will be a re-enactment, you said it ..... I have an awol ex-embu partner.

George, I take it you mean I have the moves and the charisma of Jackie Chan, thanks for the compliment
Wait a minute..you meant it was chop-socky stuff. At least we did it, and it looked ok, well alright it didn't look too bad, well at least we didn't disgrace ourselves :)


Hey Cailey if you want the Bo part I can do the Nyoi, then maybe we can put another together for the next martial aid ;)

migjohns
20th February 2001, 04:59
Anders,

If you would like a photocopy of that article from Full Contact Karate magazine e-mail me your address and I will mail you a copy.

Best Regards,
Mike Johnson
Inuyama Kita Shibu
<migjohns@yahoo.com>

Anders Pettersson
20th February 2001, 09:53
Originally posted by migjohns
Anders,

If you would like a photocopy of that article from Full Contact Karate magazine e-mail me your address and I will mail you a copy.

Best Regards,
Mike Johnson
Inuyama Kita Shibu
<migjohns@yahoo.com>

Hi Mike.

Thank you for the offer, but I have solved the problem and I have copy of the Magazine on the way to me from Japan.